#321335 - 06/28/04 07:14 PM
Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Planteers,
I have been using the .wav export feature for a long time now and even though it seems to do its job, but to me it is waste of CD's and time. 700MB takes about 30min to export. I have been exploring other options and Polarsonic's (now defunct company)idea seems logical. However to the best of my knowlegde 2480 has no ability to export .wav files through the the scsi even with thirdparty software.
But I believe we can do this, same idea with a twist.
What if we can come up with a piece of software that runs on a PC, that can emulate a CD-RW target on its SCSI interface?
What if we can fool VS to think that it the external SCSI Interface on the PC is a CD-RW ?
So here how it will work in Theory.
Launching this software will reprogram the SCSI Interface to be a target, rather then a initiator. (Will need info from SCSI Card vendor to toggle the bits. I know it can be done. I have done it before)
Target will be reprogrammed to emulate a supported (Plextor type) CD-RW device with all the correct vendor and device bits in place.
This will allow VS to do all CD related operations on this device.
Such as:
- Cd Burning.
- Exporting .wav (phrases/tracks).
- backup/restore
- export to other VS formats etc.
- Importing .wav files directly from the PC by passing the VS-CDR.
On the PC side, it will wirte it as a iso/bin image file that can be opened up using standard Alcohol or Virtual Daemon tools (Vritual CD Mounting).
That way we can copy any files from this virtual CD on to a PC or burn the image on the CD-R connected to the PC.
This will obviously take expert programming. However I do not think it will be huge task. I think with the help of 3-4 good coders we can do this quickly.
Make it a share-ware app and ask for....say $25/copy to cover the basic costs.
I think this app will be a huge hit since it will drmatically up the productivity in the studio.
Anyone interested in this project please ping me and we can go from there.
Also other readers please let me know your level of interest if this sort application was available.
Ofcourse it will require, Windows PC/SCSI card.
Thanks
Noor.
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#321336 - 06/28/04 07:27 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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I think it it going to be easier then I thought. Take a look at the following link:
http://www.root.org/~nate/freebsd/README.targ
Noor
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#321337 - 06/28/04 08:55 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Rag
Planeteer
Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Liverpool UK
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Not sure, but this might be helpful too...
http://virtualscsi.com/vscsi.html
_________________________
Rag
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#321338 - 06/28/04 09:03 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Yes. I have pinged these guys for the price of HBA & S/W. This should be simple task to do. I may be able to do this on my own pretty much.
Write the app around VirtualSCSI Library and we are done........!
Thanks
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#321339 - 06/28/04 09:31 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Noor,
I wish you are successful with your project. 
It's a shame that you have to use your personal time to do something that Roland could easily solve in the OS. What I mean is they could re-direct the wave export/import to the external SCSI hard drive and I'm sure you know that most of the code is already done in the OS to do this making it a minor upgrade. Sad thing is that once you are successful, Roland will probably do this to regain "control" over us or to pitch a new product that directly competes.
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321340 - 06/28/04 09:57 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Hi Steve
Thanks for the reply. Yes I completely agree. Roland owes us this much. An application on PC/Mac along with a VS OS to import/export .wav via SCSI.
2480 is showing up more and more in Pro Studio's and this is almost a must.
I think they will probably have a USB port along with a App in VS2480 MKII or some other flagship 24+ tracker to allow this to happen.
But you are correct it is a Shame.
Shame on you Roland!
Noor.
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#321342 - 06/28/04 10:49 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Well I am talking to a company now who can potentially deliver the entire solution for a price. They already have the HBA and the necessary software to do the target mode emulation. All they need to do is wrap it with the basic App, do some testing and we are done.
Once I get a better feel of what it might cost I might float it here to see who is interested in it.
If successful, this is going to have far reaching implications.
Ontop of exporting/importing .wav files you won't need any acard or external HD/DVD of any sort. Most people do have a PC. All they would need buy would be a HBA along with the software. This could be used with all devices that have an external SCSI Interface, even future releases of VS and other SCSI enabled trackers.
For example you can a have a local IDE RAID in the PC and use it as the primary disk connected to the VS. Faster and more redundant. All of a sudden, VS will become lot more scaleable and enterprise ready.
I will keep you guys posted.
Noor.
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#321343 - 06/29/04 12:06 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Lindsey Hall
Planeteer
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 959
Loc: Statesboro, Georgia ,USA
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Thumbs UP! 
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#321345 - 06/29/04 01:02 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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transfiguration
Chris
Planeteer
Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 2232
Loc: Lockhart, TX
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HOORAY!
I am dealing with the very conundrum that caused this thread.
I've got a live set 42" long. .16 tracks. .MTP pro. ..
Each pair of .wavs is 723 MB. ..takes 1 hour to burn to CD-R with Verify OFF. ..
8 pairs. ..8 HOURS OF F*%&(*N burn time. ..give me a F*%^%&N break already.
trans
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#321346 - 06/29/04 01:52 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Originally posted by Noor:
Ontop of exporting/importing .wav files you won't need any acard or external HD/DVD of any sort.
Also, you would backup projects normally done to the CD burner or more recently the DVD burner.
Finally, you could do a project copy as we do with our Acard and it should also work but the data will be stored to a hard drive connected to the PC.
Question: Won't the emulation software have to work with a standard SCSI card in installed in the PC? Since SCSI is a master-slave protocol, is this a standard SCSI card or a special card that emulates a slave interface?
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321347 - 06/29/04 01:54 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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I feel your pain brothers and feel every day. Just hang in there. I will have more info tomorrow.
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#321348 - 06/29/04 02:28 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Steve,
So yes, the HBA will be programmed asaa Target (slave) Mode HBA emulating a SCSI target device. Some Cards can do both Initiator and Target at the same time, but they cost more. Key here will be to keep the cost down. So without setting any expectation if we can have this thing developed in around oh say $10,000 one time development cost. That means we would have to come with 250 users paying $40 each for the software plus the HBA which I would expect to cost somewhere between $120 to $175 each.
But again I am not saying this is how much it would cost. I am just assuming. I have some pricing for the license cost for the SCSI library, and that is around $3K. I am not sure how much the development cost would be for the App. But most work is already done in the library so all you gotta to do build the interface app. That should not be a big deal.
So lets see what quote I get from these guys. Better picture tomorrow on cost of development.
BTW: this will be a future proof system, so you can use it with any device in any capacity as long as it has a SCSI interface on it, since you can emulate a HD/CD/DVD/Tape and more.
Noor.
Noor.
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#321349 - 06/29/04 02:58 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Another sad thing is Roland chose SCSI technology that's over 20 years old (with a maximum speed of 5 MB/sec). However, that is what we've got and it will not change in this platform. Your ideas are still valid and valuable to many 2480 owners who cannot just go out every year and buy a new DAW.
Again, I would hope that Roland would upgrade the OS to export to the Acard SCSI hard drive. I believe this would be the simplest solution and least expensive for me. My Acard has a caddy that slip out and put into my other Firewire/USB2 enclosure that's connected to my laptop or desktop.
This does not diminish your idea which can do much more: export wave files, backup projects files and copy projects.
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321350 - 06/29/04 03:37 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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White Rabbit
Planeteer/Artist # 100
Planeteer
Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 3828
Loc: Born in Scotland, but live in ...
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Noor you freaking rock, count me in. I take the prices quoted above are in US $.
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#321351 - 06/29/04 03:38 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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White Rabbit
Planeteer/Artist # 100
Planeteer
Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 3828
Loc: Born in Scotland, but live in ...
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So would this be available to other vs daw such as 16/1880? If it could be open up to those daws as well we would get 250 users easy.
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#321352 - 06/29/04 03:55 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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FalconEddy
Retired Mastering Marvel
Planeteer
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 10835
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
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Interesting ideas.
However, this concept (and software for the PC) was already in use at one time for the 880 (I believe). It was basically a direct wavefile transfer to the PC via the SCSI bus.
I'm not 100% certain what happened to that company, but, I've heard it wasn't a pretty ending.
My advise (not that you asked for it) would be to excercise extreme caution in this arena of invention.
On the other hand, rumors always seem to surface with the 'despair and destruction' label positioned squarely in your face.
One guess is as bad as another.
. . Falcon
_________________________
. . . but, what do I know?
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#321353 - 06/29/04 06:05 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Ghost of Cosmic Pig
Planeteer/Artist # 180
Planeteer
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 1158
Loc: Flametop's cutlery drawer
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Wouldn't Roland have a shitfit though? You wouldn't have to buy the Roland proprietary burner for 600$ that should cost 200$.
I could use this.
Cos.
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#321354 - 06/29/04 07:03 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Falcon,
If they can make a SCSI port on a PC to emulate a CD burner not even made by Roland, what claims does Roland have against this type of invention? Seems that perhaps the mfg of the CD burner could be stepped on if the design copies a proprietary design still under patent protection but this would not be Roland in this case. Maybe we have someone here with this type of patent experience willing to comment here.
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321355 - 06/29/04 07:27 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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So spec is a spec is a spec. They should all be following the standard Spec. All Roland can do is look at vendor specific bits of the SCSI inquiry data and decide to work or not along with some other variables.
My guess it is not that they are looking at a vendor bits, rather some other device inquiry bits and decide to run or not. This is very easily doable without violating any patents.
Falcon, what you were talking about was Polarsonic corp making a wav transfer files.
That was a different method. That depended upon VSs' ability to send wave files. They turned that off the later versions of VS880 and never allowed in newer models.
This method will not depend upon any of the VS capabilities that they can turn off, for example they will not turn off SCSI support or CD burning capabilty.
This will fall in line with Acard type of functionality.
My other worry would be writing speed. Today they limit the CD burning by 4x and I am not sure if this will impact the speed of data transfer or not. Yet to be determined.
Anyhow this is all still in discovery phase and lets see how much interest can generate and how much will this thing cost to develop.
Noor.u
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#321356 - 06/29/04 07:29 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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So spec is a spec is a spec. They should all be following the standard Spec. All Roland can do is look at vendor specific bits of the SCSI inquiry data and decide to work or not along with some other variables.
My guess it is not that they are looking at a vendor bits, rather some other device inquiry bits and decide to run or not. This is very easily doable without violating any patents.
Falcon, what you were talking about was Polarsonic corp making a wav transfer files.
That was a different method. That depended upon VSs' ability to send wave files. They turned that off the later versions of VS880 and never allowed in newer models.
This method will not depend upon any of the VS capabilities that they can turn off, for example they will not turn off SCSI support or CD burning capabilty.
This will fall in line with Acard type of functionality.
My other worry would be writing speed. Today they limit the CD burning by 4x and I am not sure if this will impact the speed of data transfer or not. Yet to be determined.
Anyhow this is all still in discovery phase and lets see how much interest can generate and how much will this thing cost to develop.
Noor.u
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#321357 - 06/29/04 07:52 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Rod Bell
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/11/03
Posts: 27
Loc: St Paul, MN
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This thread got me looking at other SCSI adapters/converters.
I've found several SCSI-to-ethernet adapters.
This probably wouldn't work, but could be worth a look.
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#321358 - 06/29/04 12:00 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Rod,
I have found many SCSI-to-Firewire and SCSI-to-USB2 adapters on the internet also for around $50 like this one http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/subpages/firerex1.html These adapters could bring the data into the PC and the software that Noor refers to may do the CD burner emulation.
Noor,
Have you checked if these adapters could replace the SCSI card as I would like to use firewire with my laptop?
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321361 - 06/29/04 03:37 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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funkbutt
Planeteer
Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 473
Loc: mays landing, n.j
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i think this is a great idea .please keep us posted
_________________________
LET THE FUNK BEGIN !
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#321362 - 06/29/04 05:47 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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nweez
Planeteer
Registered: 01/02/02
Posts: 50
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I for one would dig knowing if the FireWire adapters are worth my time checking out-
nate
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#321364 - 06/29/04 09:20 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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mike buzz
Planeteer
Registered: 04/28/99
Posts: 1958
Loc: paso robles ca usa
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Noor should'nt the Firewire or USB2 adaptor be usable in this schenario ??? the VS just needs to see the right data bit's etc. to recognize it as a CD burner correct ???? , if you were able to use Fire or USB you could use laptops etc. and lower the cost per unit
Later
Buzz
PS: Roland could just make the scsi port available for wav files and we could forget the whole DAMN thing )*(&)%^)*(&%()*&%()*&%^&*%@%^#$!@
HEY ROLAND GOT OS ??????
Throw us a bone here
BTW WHAT in the HELL is the idea of NOT having the scsi port available for wav thansfer anyhow ????? what possible reason would there be to not have your equipment used in pro/semipro studios on a regular basis ??????? the logic escapes me
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#321365 - 07/01/04 06:32 AM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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SteveDWalker
Planeteer
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Clearwater
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Originally posted by mike buzz:
[QB] Noor should'nt the Firewire or USB2 adaptor be usable in this schenario ??? the VS just needs to see the right data bit's etc. to recognize it as a CD burner correct ????
However, in Noor's situation you need a SCSI card (or maybe the SCSI-to-Firewire adapter) to bring the data to the PC but then you need special software running in the PC to emulate a slave unit that acts like a Roland compatible CD burner. These actions are accually a well defined protocol and/or command set that the 2480 uses to interface with the CD burner. This emulation is required when it comes to exporting wave files or doing a project backup.
Noor I believe this summary is correct but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks,
Steve
_________________________
Steve
Roland V-Studio 100, Sonar Platinum, VS-2480HD, M-Audio, Korg,Alesis, Audix, Shure, Mackie, JBL, EV, Taylor, Gibson, Ovation, Ephiphone, Ibanez, Fender, Sunn 2000S
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#321366 - 07/01/04 07:09 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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Noor
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 164
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Hi Steve,
Yes you are dead on as far as the emulation piece is concerned. Everything is well defined in the SCSI protocol. All we gotta to do is figure out what Vendor Specific Bits are VS looking for and return that as part of the inquiry data.
I am afraid the SCSI to Firewire and SCSI - USB may be a long shot. The vendor I am working with has written his library around a his SCSI HBA'a and all of them are PCI based at this time.
Status:
They have asked for a prliminary Spec of the Software and that is what I am working on. I should have this to him by Tuesday. Will work over the Long weekend to write it and then based on the Spec they will quote me a price of the developemental cost.
If it all works out, company has also agreed to sell and support the product, which is going to be very important. So that is a great news.
I will keep you guys posted.
Have a great long safe July 4th weekend.
Noor.
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#321367 - 07/01/04 09:41 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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DarthFaders
Planeteer
Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 1529
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Hey guys...this has been a crusade of mine for YEARS. Do a search for "vstransfer" or "vs transfer" and/or my name on this board, and you'll find the whole history of polarsonic, as well as some replies from Roland...assuming my threads aren't too old to be GONE!
Darth
_________________________
 Rock it, and let it roll! Feable Weiner
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#321369 - 07/02/04 06:44 PM
Re: Proposal to Export .wav files through SCSI
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WinyardPro
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3947
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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A note to anyone reading this post. This idea has materialized and is now a product called VirDIS - VIRTUAL DISK IMAGE SERVER. Allowing the Roland VS recorders to interface with the PC. VirDIS allows a virtual SCSI option by letting the Roland VS units see all their SCSI attached devices. However, all the devices are virtual and replace a multitude of external SCSI devices. VirDIS vastly improves your workflow on the Roland VS recorders offering - Project Backup, External Virtual Hard Drive (in PC) Recording/Playback/Editing, Mastering Room virtual CD-R pre-masters as image files, RAW .WAV transfer via Track Export function, Complete Project .WAV extraction via RDAC to .WAV conversion at a fraction of the time it took to Export Tracks. Also once the Roland VS data is in the PC it can be sent to a wide range of external and internal storage, be it DVD-R, USB Drive, SD Card, External/Internal HDD, CD-R, etc... VirDIS is here!
LINK: http://www.virtualscsi.com/virdis.htm
Thanks to all who had a vision for this product. We made it happen!
I can contact the original programmer of VSCopy! Is there a specific question you would like asked of him?
Also, the barrier isn't with the software, it is with the VS1680 & VS2480. VSCopy worked with the VS880 because Roland allowed audio transfer via SCSI. On the VS1680 & VS2480, this function is either switched off or removed.
However, Roland Japan may (??) offer an answer to this soon. There is a reason why .wav doesn't go to DVD-R. Read between the lines, VSCopy may not be required (I say no more).
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