#211761 - 04/24/03 07:01 PM
The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Yes, it can be done...
That's an IDE/ATA CF(compact flash) memory card adapter fitted in place of the zip drive.
Performance so far is encouraging. The silence is spooky. 8 track playback in MT1 does work.
Nearby is a USB CF adapter that allows the 840 files to be swapped for backup and restore. The BR8 .wav convertor program will work with the tracks on the CF card as it appears as a removable drive. Under WinXP, no software is needed to make the USB adapter work but a program is supplied for Win98.
A CF card is a form of solid state computer memory. It has no moving parts (hence silent) but is designed to mimic an IDE disk drive in its operation. Unlike a Zip, it has no eject mechanism so you must shut down the 840 before inserting or removing it.
My 840 is an original with the EX update. CF card sizes 128M, 512M and 1G work best (I tried an 8M card - 3minutes recording time!!!). 256meg cards work, but you will probably have the same trouble going onto a pc as with a 250meg zip disc. Another possibility is the IBM microdrive (a tiny hard disk in a CF card case) but these seem very overpriced to me on probably make some noise.
Fitting the adapter in the 840 required a different 40wire cable as the 840 one is too short (standard pc IDE cable). The power connector reached ok. The adapter body had 4 screw holes coinciding with holes in the zip drive frame so it's a very neat fit.
After ordering the parts, I saw the spec of the new BOSS BR832 recorder. It too uses CF cards.
[ 04-24-2003: Message edited by: jim y ]
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#211762 - 04/24/03 11:05 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Not to be a pain in the Ass man, but could you make that picture a bit larger, my eyes aren't what they used to be....LOL..HA HA...whatever....(joking of coarse)
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#211763 - 04/25/03 06:44 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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I fixed the picture now Jack. I had a spot of trouble reducing it - Photoshop kept freezing when I tried to export the JPG so I gave up and went to the pub. Worked OK this morning - Beer can do this.
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#211764 - 04/25/03 09:26 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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TONYK
Planeteer
Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 1019
Loc: Erie, PA USA
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Jim - what was the cost of the upgrade?
TK
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#211765 - 04/25/03 11:07 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Well, the adapter for the 840 costs me £35 pounds UK. This is a tad overpriced, the adapter is a very simple affair (CF cards already have IDE interfaces but a different connector). I posted elsewhere that I had seen a US dealer selling them for $20! USB reader/writers for a pc are also cheap, mine was £14 pounds UK. It's all a lot cheaper than zip drives though and easier to find than suitable laptop hard drives.
The Memory cards can be pricy - Camera stores are a good place to look. If you have other digital devices (Camera, Mp3 player. PDA etc) that use CF, the high price compared to zip discs can be offset against CFs greater usefulness. I've used the USB reader to transfer ordinary files too, like a super floppy. A 128meg CF cost me £45 pounds from a retail store.
Just like disc, CF can go bad. A 256meg card I ordered with the adapter had a lot of errors. I put it on a pc and ran Windows ScanDisk and it found over a Meg of bad sectors - it will have to go back.
All the cards I have tried are CF type 1 - I've never seen a type2 whatever they are. Be careful not to order ATA CF cards - they are larger and have a PC card connector for laptops.
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#211766 - 04/25/03 12:47 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Leonard
Planeteer
Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 4678
Loc: Mchenry, Il 60050 usa
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Congratulations, Jim!! Excellent work!!
It looks good, too! A real breakthrough. Give it a good workout and give us some feedback, ok?
If this systems hangs with the laptop drive, performance wise, this is the best 840 user upgrade. Huge, is the fact PC's recognize it as removable. Hassle free backups! This is far superior to the clumbsy, direct to PC, removable VS/HD backups I do in Win/XP. Again; congrats to you, Jim.
(hmmm...No one's installed a 750 meg zip drive in an 840 yet? Any other "Pioneers" out there?)
_________________________
Appreciate! Everything else is madness.
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#211768 - 04/25/03 06:29 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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MikeP
Planeteer
Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 367
Loc: Georgetown, Texas
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After seeing your mod, I went to my local computer parts place but couldn't find a drive like yours. I was able to find a 3.5" internal that was a 6 in 1 drive, i.e. it used CompactFlash, DataSticks, and all the other formats out there, as well. It costs about $40. Would this still be a usable option? I would think that having multiple formats available would be a plus.
Also, my machine is a GX. Would I need to downgrade the OS to EX in order to make this work?
I like the idea that the BR-8 wave conversion program works with these. Plus, if I got a 1Gb CF, I could really go nuts! Keep us informed.
[ 04-25-2003: Message edited by: MikeP ]
_________________________
If you must suck, suck with confidence.
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#211769 - 04/26/03 12:53 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Quickly...
The 840 adapter must be IDE. Some internal 3.5" ones are USB and would be no good at all.
This is a CF drive that has adapters for the other card types...
http://shop.infopia.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/541396/vpcsid/0/SFV/19252
Other memory card types have lower capacity than CF - 128meg is the largest I could find on the market.
The CF drive should work on an 840GX BUT the BR8 program will not work with GX or any 840 MT1 songs. It is possible to downgrade a GX using the EX "update".
This is different than mine, but should work.
http://the-discount-shop.com/itm00103.htm
I do not know the manufacturer of my adapter but its part number is IDE-412.HS
Although my adapter has a "hot-swap" function - it needs a pc program to eject the card elecrically (you still have to pull it out!). This feature seems unavailable on the 840 since there's no way to install the software.
This means disc/song copy cannot be done although disc copy Can be done via a pc.
The 840 needs good media - I recommend testing a new CF on the pc using Scandisks surface scan. This can correct some errors or at least show them up before causing a problem on the 840. Unlike a zip disk, a CF card has a good chance of never becoming corrupt.
You can format a CF on the pc. Make sure the format type is FAT and NOT FAT32.
[ 04-26-2003: Message edited by: jim y ]
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#211770 - 04/28/03 10:01 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Originally posted by jim y:
Quickly...
Make sure the format type is FAT and NOT FAT32.
[ 04-26-2003: Message edited by: jim y ]
Jim,
My own personall Format is FAT, Just wish I was still 32 as well LOL  (Americian Humor),
PS. Glad you dug the sound of that blues tune I recorded for my friends band. I really didn't think it would work recording them "live" through my Behringer like that. But they insisted, so I said lets give it a whirl.
The drummer was an EXTREMLY light player, it was very hard to get him heard, but I guess thats just their style?
In anycase I was totally excited by the way they came out, from the way I had to do it. You can send the file to anyone you want, my friend gave permission, I'm hoping we will be able to get that DSL, it's only about 3 dollars more than our current dialup, then perhaps I will be able to upload things better, they had better songs than that one, it was just the smallest.
That singer is 62 years old, awesome voice huh?
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#211771 - 05/06/03 01:01 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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fernmeister
Space Cadet
Registered: 05/06/03
Posts: 1
Loc: London
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EXCELLENT IDEA!!!
I will try this out. i've been putting off the h/d upgrade and this may well be the ticket for me. I've gotten into digital photography so I have a few cards around.
I was wondering if you have a part for the adapter cable, as it seems it need to be different. Also, any idea on poss recording times for 256 or 512mb cards?
anyway, great work and thanks for the idea! here's hoping I can make it work.
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#211772 - 05/06/03 04:49 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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I've tracked down a link for the card adapter I bought...
http://www.flash-card-store.co.uk/internal_ide_reader.htm
It comes with a full length IDE cable but you can roll it up in the back of the zip drive bay.
That's all you need (assuming you've already got EX or GX). EX is actually better as you can use the BR8 .wav converter program to take audio on & off a pc.
At the weekend I did a quicky track using drums assembled from loops on my pc -imported them to CF via BR8convert (MT2 - the BR8 doesn't know about MT1). Added instruments,edited & mixed down and copied back to pc via the BR8 prog. No troubles.
I thought I'd hit a problem - some menus refused to come up. Then I realised the machine was still in play. Not being able to hear disc noise, I hadn't realised I had not stopped at the end of the song! Doh!!!
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#211773 - 05/06/03 11:22 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Well this all sounds cool, but the hard drive is still the route for me, I can't hear any noise in my hardrive, but I have to say this, I sent jim a 96kbps sample of my friend Joe playing drums, we were just getting a soundcheck on the drums being mic'd up. Jim wrote music around Joe's drumcheck, and looped it and recorded it with hi new compact flash, sent it back to me in 96kbps MP3 format, and it sounds awesome!!
Jack
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#211774 - 05/07/03 07:51 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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MartinThin
Space Cadet
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 22
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Fantastic job Jim! I notice that Roland now has a wave conversion program for their BR-532. Does anyone know if it records in MT1 and if this could possibly work for your new mod? I believe it also records using Compact Flash.
M.
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#211775 - 05/07/03 02:45 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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532 does not do MT1, nor does the new 8 track version (whose number escapes me).
The 532 used Smart media (or is it Memory stick?)
while the new model does use compact flash.
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#211776 - 05/15/03 05:02 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Well, I've played with my 840CF quite a bit now and have no gripes. Done a lot of optimise further after deletes and edits - no Drive busy or other problems. Just works
If anyone tries this with the same ide card adapter I have, a few installation tips.
It has a master/slave jumper just like a drive. It must be set to master. Not clear in its paper manual but there's a picture on the circuit board in the card slot. The black jumper plug needs to be on pins 2&3 - nearest the right hand edge. Mine came set to slave so needed changing.
The supplied IDE cable has 2 wires spliced out to a seperate little 2 pin plug for which there is a socket on the adapter board. I fitted this cable with the long end in the 840, the middle connector in the adapter and the last connector unused and rolled up and tucked away.
You can use any 40wire IDE cable instead. The extra 2 wires are something to do with the adapters "hot swap" function that will only work in conjunction with a supplied win98 program - no use on 840.
The only safe way to eject the flash card is by shutting down the 840. Never remove or insert with the 840 power on.
Although CF is a removable media, its "drive" interface is in the card too. With a zip drive, the media only is ejected, the drive electronics remain and the 840 is happy with that. However, the CF card cannot be used like this because effectively the drive itself is removed with the card. Duh!
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#211778 - 05/16/03 04:22 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Hey Drummercat.
Interesting. Would be cool if you could use the card types other than CF but I wouldn't say it could definately work. Hopefully it will be ok with a CF card - the best choice anyway since they go to much larger sizes. 256meg is the largest I have seen for the other types.
It's a pity there are so many types of memory card on the market otherwise the market for CF would be much larger and the prices could go lower.
Does your IDE reader have a master/slave setting?
Can you give a link to a web page with some tech info on it?
Noticed there is also a Fostex 8track machine that uses CF.
The lowliest CF card has a write speed of at least x4 (where x1 is the audio CD data rate - 1 stereo 16bit 44.1khz track). So CF can easily handle 8 track recording. With the 840 always using data compression and max 4 track record, there is plenty of breathing room.
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#211780 - 05/17/03 07:39 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Drummercat.
Have you got a CF card working with it?
CF are different than the rest. Only CF is ATA compatable. But you would expect the interface electronics to fix that for the other cards. Maybe on a pc the adapter needs a driver program? In which case, these multicard adapters will not be suitable for an 840.
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#211781 - 05/17/03 07:57 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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Jim,
The card reader itself doesnt come with a driver disk......the manual says the reader will be reconized be win98 or win2000 and XP
I will test it with a CF tonight.....
and will let all of you know the result.
If success, This will be the best upgrade for VS840 I think.
and Jim, have you tried a 1G CF on the unit??
can it work?
Originally posted by jim y:
Drummercat.
Have you got a CF card working with it?
CF are different than the rest. Only CF is ATA compatable. But you would expect the interface electronics to fix that for the other cards. Maybe on a pc the adapter needs a driver program? In which case, these multicard adapters will not be suitable for an 840.
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#211782 - 05/17/03 10:41 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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No, not tried 1gig. Should work. They are very expensive at the moment. I do have a 512meg CF on the way. As I used to use a 540meg hard disk with no worries over recording time, I think 512meg will be as much as I'll need.
Have tracked down manufacturer of my adapter, the IDE-412.HS they are Prestico of Taiwan (where else!).
http://www.prestico.com/
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#211783 - 05/17/03 12:49 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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grachus
Planeteer/Artist # 92
Planeteer
Registered: 01/10/00
Posts: 11991
Loc: burlington ont, canada
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gentlemen ..this looks terribly interesting . I wonder is the cf card expensive??? Is the installation as easy as removing the screws of the zip disk drive and putting in the cf drive and plugging in a ribbon cable???
I am a telephone repair guy but i dont get into computer work .Although when i looked into my computer and saw just the one big mother board in there i went oh thats a mother board.
so will this save money and give greater recording possibilities and maintain great sound???
Is this the future of the 840ex???
_________________________
Now is the time
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#211784 - 05/17/03 01:57 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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OOPS........
I borrowed a 32M CF from my friend tonight.....
formatted in FAT file system....
the 840 still cant detect the CF.....
I think this is the card reader`s problem...
the 840 will not support this 6 in 1 reader I think...
Originally posted by drummercat:
Jim,
The card reader itself doesnt come with a driver disk......the manual says the reader will be reconized be win98 or win2000 and XP
I will test it with a CF tonight.....
and will let all of you know the result.
If success, This will be the best upgrade for VS840 I think.
and Jim, have you tried a 1G CF on the unit??
can it work?
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#211785 - 05/17/03 03:48 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Boray
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 4019
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
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How cool! This could be something for me... I don't use my 840 a lot, much because of the loud zip noise... Thanks for sharing!!! (My VS1680 is ultra silent now when I have removed the fan)...
/Anders
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#211786 - 05/17/03 04:46 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Drummercat...
Doesn't look too good. But I would try the interface in a pc - in case you have a faulty one?
I couldn't find any info on the one you have either. Maybe it's actually made by another company - any clue printed on the circuit board or somewhere?
CF is expensive compared to zip disk. Check prices in a camera store or on-line (on-line are usually better). Prepare to swear when told how much a 1gig one is!
However, compared to upgrading to a 750meg zip it's feasable. The cost of 2 new zip750 drives (one ide for the 840 and 1 usb for the 'puter) is a lot - around £120 pounds each in the uk. Then look how cheap the card readers are. Given that backup to a pc is easy, you don't need a lot of cards. Apparently, zip750 drives are very noisy.
It really is as simple as replacing the zip with a card reader - plug for plug, screw for screw. An original 100meg 840 will need the EX update though.
[ 05-17-2003: Message edited by: jim y ]
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#211787 - 05/17/03 04:56 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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Jim,
The unit works on my PC,
I use it to read and format my 128m SM and 32M CF no problem,
and I make sure the unit is set to MASTER.
The unit is made by EAGLETEC....ET-CRI61IDE
Internal 6in1 Card Reader with IDE port.
seems It need some drivers provided by OS not older than WIN98....that means those drivers is not in my 840....so the 840 can`t reconize my reader.
I will keep this unit for my PC, and got a PURE CF reader with IDE.....not 6in1. just like yours.
Originally posted by jim y:
Drummercat...
Doesn't look too good. But I would try the interface in a pc - in case you have a faulty one?
I couldn't find any info on the one you have either. Maybe it's actually made by another company - any clue printed on the circuit board or somewhere?
CF is expensive compared to zip disk. Check prices in a camera store or on-line (on-line are usually better). Prepare to swear when told how much a 1gig one is!
However, compared to upgrading to a 750meg zip it's feasable. The cost of 2 new zip750 drives (one ide for the 840 and 1 usb for the 'puter) is a lot - around £120 pounds each in the uk. Then look how cheap the card readers are. Given that backup to a pc is easy, you don't need a lot of cards. Apparently, zip750 drives are very noisy.
It really is as simple as replacing the zip with a card reader - plug for plug, screw for screw. An original 100meg 840 will need the EX update though.
[ 05-17-2003: Message edited by: jim y ]
[ 05-17-2003: Message edited by: drummercat ]
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#211788 - 05/17/03 07:47 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Hey Drummercat.
First, can I ask you not to use the "reply with quote" - it makes the thread needlessly long. Use the basic Reply button at the bottom of the page.
I found the Eagletec site. It's www.eagletec.net
There is no useful technical information there!
They list it as ET-MRI61IDE. Only straight reader is this...
http://www.eagletec.net/login/pop.asp?id=371
But its for the ATA flash cards. These are bigger than CF but can use CF in an adapter. May or may not work.
It's probably the PIO mode of your adapter that the 840 doesn't like. Unfortunately there is no spec to say what that mode should be.
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#211789 - 05/18/03 06:05 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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Jim,
My manual says.....
DATA TRANSFER RATE: 16.6MB/sec (PIO Mode 4)
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#211790 - 05/18/03 06:10 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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#211791 - 05/18/03 01:24 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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I don't see the specs! Maybe I need the Chinese characters plug in after all
Anyhow, if it only does PIO mode 4 then the 840 probably can't handle it. A PC interogates a device to see what modes it supports, I guess an 840 isn't that clever.
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#211792 - 05/18/03 01:55 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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drummercat
Space Cadet
Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 18
Loc: hong kong
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I cant see the spec too!!
I am running a chinese WIN2000....(because I am a chinese~~)
I posted the spec on the early post....
here is the spec on the manual:
Socket:
(1)Multi card socket for SD/MMC/MS/SM
(2)CF CARD socket for TYPE I/II & microdrive
system requirments:
IBM PC compatible computer with IDE/ATAPI support
FREE 3.5" disk drive bay
window 98/98se/ME/nt4.0+SP6/2000/XP
interface: INTERNAL IDE/ATAPI device
Power supply: DC +5V
Dimension:standard 3.5" device
DATA Transfer rate:16.6MB/SEC(PIO MODE4)
Environment:
temperature:.....(really need that???)
relative humidity:.....(really need that???)
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#211793 - 05/19/03 06:26 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Got the 512meg CF. TWINmos brand x26 speed. 238 minutes in MT2. Works very well - pc backup/restore no problem.
Sorry Drummercat... Can't see anything helpful in the spec of your interface. Most hard drives can have their PIO or DMA transfer modes "programmed" by a utility you can download from the drive maker but I couldn't find anything for your Eagletec interface. I guess its fixed at mode 4 by design. Not that I know what mode the 840 uses - Mode2 at a guess or even DMA.
My interface is actually quite simple - really just a socket converter so the 840 sees the CF card directly.
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#211794 - 12/18/03 11:16 PM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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I seem to be the only one with this, so I'm feeling lonely. I think a bump is due for the benefit of newbies.
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#211795 - 12/19/03 01:03 AM
Re: The VS-840CF - Rig for silent running.
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Desoto
Planeteer
Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 609
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Good God Man!!!
Just when I think I actually have a handle on the HD upgrade, this appears!!!!
Jim, is your real name Gandalf?? (timely reference, eh?)
My digital camera uses SD cards - would getting the appropriate adapter for those type cards work also?
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