Racism? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Is there some sort of layered "schematic" code within the straight lines all around the artistic ones?

Von Daniken makes a big assumption:
he assumes that because these lines can only be seen from the air that they must be ET related.

it might be ET related or not.
but jumping right away to the ET hypothesis seems premature to me.

I didn't jump right away, if archaeologists had a solid answer, I'd accept it, but I checked into it several times over the years and they don't seem to.

I do not expect modern white Americans, who falsely believe that they are free of all vestiges of racism, to understand how racist so many of their assumptions are. This denial and stubborn refusal to look at the racism, subtle and overt, within their own consciousness is what causes the problems of race to persist in this land. Put yourself in the shoes of a native American who people have been diminished by genocide, whose people were called savages and more akin to animals than humans --- how would you feel if all the creations of your peoples were dismissed as too advanced, were dismissed as having been made by space aliens.

Your making the assumption that I am white is also a vestige of subtle racism. And white folks deciding that they are the arbiters of what is and is not racism is also a form of racism ("whitey knows best").

I do not hear people here saying that space aliens built the Salisbury Cathedral, white folks assume that early British Islanders living on the Salisbury Plain built that marvel. As to Stonehenge, folks typically assume that Caucasian Druids built Stonehenge.

Look, basically one guy, this Erik von Danniken (sp) fellow, found that he could sell books among science-illiterates attributing the work of pre-modern Peruvians to extraterrestrials. And people predisposed to believe in the inferiority of nonwhite peoples are willing to dismiss the labors and intelligence of the Peruvians and give nonexistent extraterrestrials credit for the work of native Americans.

You know that humans have had radio telescopes trained on the cosmos waiting for any signal from an extraterrestrial lifeform and decade after decade we have heard nothing but silence, complete silence.

one could argue that an advanced civilization would be using something more sophisticated that radio signals for communication.

we're pretty much done here on Earth with that mean of communication as it is.
everything is moving to cable, fiber optics, satellites, microwaves and whatnot.

havlicek:
Look Moon, couching remarks in pseudoscience to make them appear learned doesn't make your position any stronger.
Radio waves can be either a direct form of communication...OR...they can be the byproduct of all kinds of technology.
Here's a clue...stuff emits "radio waves" either intentionally or unintentionally.
The universe itself does that, but detecting patterns aside from the noise could mean something...or not.
I'm fairly confident that the folks involved in SETI and other efforts to find life out there at least are aware of the potentials.

"For good measure, in America we have switched from analogue to digital broadcasting and you are going to do the same in Britain very soon," Drake added. "When you do that, your transmissions will become four times fainter because digital uses less power."

"Very soon we will become undetectable," he said. In short, in space no one will hear us at all.

What is true for humans would probably also be true for aliens, who may already have moved to much more efficient methods of TV and radio broadcasting. Trying to find ET from their favourite shows was going to be harder than we thought, Drake said.

i'm well aware lots of stuff can emit radio waves.
amateur astronomy is one of my hobby.
like i said, the leakage we produce can only be detected from a short distance, no more than a few light-years.

i think the researchers at the SETI Institute got a lot of things wrong.

one could argue that an advanced civilization would be using something more sophisticated that radio signals for communication.

Skywave.....there is a section here called "political". It's also where the crazys hang out. Seriously....you're a couple beers short of a six pack and to you everything is political and rascist....even when you make no fucking sense and are being absurd.

It's the perfect place for a wackaloon like you.

Or, one could more reasonably conclude, that the rest of the universe is subject to the same law of physics as in this solar system and that any civilization advanced enough to know about Earth and get here would also know about the entire electromagnetic radiation spectrum, which includes radio waves.

Basically, the UFO believers have just taken the God the Invisible Sky Father myth and transferred it to space aliens, more invisible gods from the sky. Concepts of a juvenile psyche more interested in childish distraction than creating a decent, just and sustainable world here.

Unlike the rest of you, apparently, I have been at the Nazca lines. I have flown over them and photographed them and walked them; I have sat through lectures at the university at Cuzco about the Nazca liens and who made them and what their purpose was; and interviewed Peruvian scholars and shamans about the lines. It is not this big woo-woo pace mystery. The Nazca built the lines and had their own purposes. No assistance from space aliens was needed to build Machu Picchu, the Inca Road or the Nazca liens. Or the wondrous ruins throughout Meso-America.

And it is Peruvians who lay the charge of racism, from whom I first heard it when studying the lines in Peru. If you travel to Peru and Nazca and talk to the people and scholars there involved with the lines, they are the ones who complain bitterly about the racism of the white folks who assume that the native American Nazcan people could not have made the lines and that they must have been made by space aliens instead. The brown-skinned Peruvians know that these assumptions are racist. How do you think a Peruvian parent feels, one who wants to show the marvels of their country top their children, who wants their children to be proud of what their ancestors were able to build, only to be told that the Nazcans were too stupid to construct these lines and that space aliens must have built them.

But rather than examine the racism implicit in your assumptions that space aliens built the Nazca lines, you choose instead to attack me and go into, as racists tend to do, total denial.

I'd think that a hippie like you would be more open minded. You'd feel differently if you ever had any experiences of high strangeness but obviously the aliens have steered clear of you cause they're afraid you'd stereotype them like you do most other factions of beings.

I have been to the Nazca Desert, walked the desert, seen and photographed the lines from the air and took a short course on the lines from the university in Cuzco, Peru.

A bit more
"Despite criticism from the scientific establishment, including famed scientist Carl Sagan, the ancient astronaut and lost civilization hypothesis remains popular. According to Omni (1994:77) "One of Sagan's original objections was the underlying assumption that our ancestors were apparently too stupid to create the monumental architecture of our past." And indeed, this is the theme that cuts across all the diffusionist ideas about the origins of Mesoamerican civilization. Each of these authors argues that the Mesoamericans were incapable of creating a unique, vital and exciting civilization on their own, and that they needed outside agents to help them overcome their mental handicaps.

This view is not only wrong, it is also racist. It is racist whether it comes from supporters of the Caucasian refugees of a lost continent (see Hancock 1995:102-104) or the Afrocentrists who see Africans as the superior race (see Haslip-Viera et al. 1997:420). What these belief systems fail to understand is that humanity has no biological determinism, that intelligence and the ability to create and to understand are not characteristics belonging to races, but individuals (Jurmain et al. 1998:109). Mesoamericans had a long tradition of civilization and culture before the Spanish conquest, and no attempt to rewrite history can deny the ancient peoples of Mexico their cultural heritage. "

Is there anything you haven't done?

Well, it's refreshing to see you refer to common sense anyway...even if you haven't a clue about what it is! Maybe dream about being someone who actually knows what he's talking about, instead of inventing qualifications eh? There goes another internet idiot...sleep tight

-john

Or, one could more reasonably conclude, that the rest of the universe is subject to the same law of physics as in this solar system and that any civilization advanced enough to know about Earth and get here would also know about the entire electromagnetic radiation spectrum, which includes radio waves.

what's the point you are trying to make here?

Bitches be crazy?

Just because Smelly posted some article like that, doesn't mean he believes that it's the case here. I don't think he's that dumb, really, now.

That's inappropriate Gamble

there's nothing like a lunatic to brighten up your day

My bad. Extraterrestrial Americans.

In your usual gifted asshole way you fail to understand that this is nothing new, that was the point of what I posted. You really are disturbed. This thread probably should be moved to protect the delicate, lol.

you're out of your league junior.
your superior tone and overbearing attitude are unwarranted, especially considering you can't think your way out of a phuckin paper-bag.

In your usual not gifted asshole way, you fail to realize that there are precious few people who would actually take the time to read whatever it is you post. -john

lmao

This thread has been a riot!

Sucks to get called out as a poseur eh?

Ever notice how assholes always think they speak for everyone? They always imagine a gang behind them, when in reality they are just a cowardly solo asshole. This jerk is so thick that he brings politics into play everytime he posts because of his signature line. Rightwingers only like politics in their echo chamber.

Havlicek is an angry guy who must have a difficult life or something. His superiority complex is second to none here except for maybe Gamble.

Silly question. Of course, there are many things. I have never killed, or been part of a military or parachuted from a plane, nor dived for pearls, nor have I been to India, and I still have a huge bucket list of things remaining to be done. Everyone here has done a lot of stuff, as have I. Nothing really unusual, I decided quite young that I did not want an ordinary boring same-same life, that I wanted a colorful and interesting life and with travel and that what I chose to create.

You all can think this is BS, but you will be wrong. The Nazca Lines are there, you can go see them as well and see how easily thee iron-rich crust can be broken to reveal the whiter sand underneath.

And it appears that Mr. Ismellelephant actually gets that racism underlies the assumption of white moderns that pre-Spanish Peruvians and Meso-Americans could not have built the monuments of their cultures, but had to have intervention by space aliens.

A bit more
"Despite criticism from the scientific establishment, including famed scientist Carl Sagan, the ancient astronaut and lost civilization hypothesis remains popular. According to Omni (1994:77) "One of Sagan's original objections was the underlying assumption that our ancestors were apparently too stupid to create the monumental architecture of our past." And indeed, this is the theme that cuts across all the diffusionist ideas about the origins of Mesoamerican civilization. Each of these authors argues that the Mesoamericans were incapable of creating a unique, vital and exciting civilization on their own, and that they needed outside agents to help them overcome their mental handicaps.

This view is not only wrong, it is also racist. It is racist whether it comes from supporters of the Caucasian refugees of a lost continent (see Hancock 1995:102-104) or the Afrocentrists who see Africans as the superior race (see Haslip-Viera et al. 1997:420). What these belief systems fail to understand is that humanity has no biological determinism, that intelligence and the ability to create and to understand are not characteristics belonging to races, but individuals (Jurmain et al. 1998:109). Mesoamericans had a long tradition of civilization and culture before the Spanish conquest, and no attempt to rewrite history can deny the ancient peoples of Mexico their cultural heritage. "

Re: the giant spider-in-the-sand thingy:

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration - perhaps more than it has - is that Sky claims to have actually been there and, apparently, spent time up close and personal actually studying/learning about this *particular* phenomenon. This, in my book, makes her POV *much* more credible than anything else offered here on the subject.

That's inappropriate Gamble

I first saw those lines on television in the mid seventies and my first thought whenever I see them ever since is along the lines of: "hey, there's those south american drawings in the desert that some believe could only be made by ET's".

I've not been to Nazca as she says she has, so I would defer to how she says the natives (or at least some of those she has spoken with) feel about all this. I have no idea who created the lines or how, but I seriously doubt that many (most!?) who believe they were created by aliens do so out of racism.

-john

I've not been to Nazca as she says she has, so I would defer to how she says the natives (or at least some of those she has spoken with) feel about all this. I have no idea who created the lines or how, but I seriously doubt that many (most!?) who believe they were created by aliens do so out of racism.

-john


I don't think that she initially was saying that they *are* racist - just that the natives view others as racist for making an assumption. Again, not far fetched. That she assumes a position that some might be racist for assuming that these native's ancestors couldn't pull this off - also not far fetched.

Do not denigrate the ancient peoples of South America by ascribing their works to space aliens.

Well, you notice that these "space aliens" must have built it" do not say that the fabulous structures built in Europe by ancient white people were made by space aliens. I do not hear them saying, Oh, space aliens had to have built the cathedral at Salisbury, the natives could not have built such a marvel.

Re: the giant spider-in-the-sand thingy:

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration - perhaps more than it has - is that Sky claims to have actually been there and, apparently, spent time up close and personal actually studying/learning about this *particular* phenomenon. This, in my book, makes her POV *much* more credible than anything else offered here on the subject.

I don't think that she initially was saying that they *are* racist - just that the natives view others as racist for making an assumption. Again, not far fetched. That she assumes a position that some might be racist for assuming that these native's ancestors couldn't pull this off - also not far fetched.

We break into your regularly sheduled programming for this news flash:

This just in, the guy who has called himself (because no one with ears would do it for him) "rock's last hope" AND conferred himself with the title "musicologist" for a similar reason, is actually saying someone "else" has a superiority complex! People's heads everywhere are beginning to explode from "irony-overload", and local EMT crews are rushing to provide first aid and cleanup! We can't confirm this, but independant sources are telling us that "Al/Scott" will soon be joining "Moon" and a select few others for an intellectual circle jerk. More details as they become available!

-john

I hear you, John.

There is a practical aspect of conversation that is pretty common, IMO. Where through experience we take away what we generally determine to be the "points" that we pick up through the exchange of ideas and information. We deem through our own filters the more interesting or "valuable" pieces of info. In that sense, even after we have dissected the fuck out of this, I'm left only with a slightly new general idea about this subject given the comments and information provided here so far, particularly, in this thread's case, Sky's. That new take of mine has little to nothing, naturally, to do with HER opinions necessarily - but the info about her experience there provided anecdotal info that makes sense to me. I "buy" it. She may hold an opinion that is broad and sweeping (not to mention way the fuck off base and/or not true) - but I'm not one to miss that if there is any truth to the anecdotal info she shared... there is no doubt subtlety and variation in the attitudes there that she was sharing. Of course there is - there has to be. "Racism" as well as other behaviors and attitudes point often involve subtlety and matters of degrees.

Anyway... so, yeah.... that. I'll tell my wife about this conversation later and I promise to do my best not to mis-characterize anything that anyone said here today.

By the way Infinitymobile... have you read Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" yet? I ask because you have clearly expressed an interest in knowing the how's and why's of many folks accusations of wrong doing - and that one book spells it out in crystal clear terms from one of the most successful trial lawyers of our time. If you haven't - you should really read it.

On another note, Al...you continue to prove to the world what a dipshit you are, so please whatever you do DON'T STOP!

-john

My drummer and song writing partner of over a decade is 1/2 Peruvian (his mother was born and raised there and is 100% Peruvian) and after he went to Machu Pichu for the first time, he expressed disbelief in how something like that could have been built by HIS ancient ancestors and the technology available at the time.......I guess he is racist against his own people?????

You know what Dave?...the whole "racism" thing never occurred to me. In that sense, she has sort of "enlightened me" as well. Of course, we're all just accepting the fact that she has in fact "been there" at face value. Pretty much all of us and anyone who's been on the internet for at least a day realize that people claim all sorts of things on the WWW. Still, I'll accept that she HAS been there and spoken to some natives about this. I still think the racism thing is dumb and maybe even really harmful, even though I know full well that all the various "isms" can be couched in nuance and hard to decipher.

On another note, Al...you continue to prove to the world what a dipshit you are, so please whatever you do DON'T STOP!

-john

We break into your regularly sheduled programming for this news flash:

This just in, the guy who has called himself (because no one with ears would do it for him) "rock's last hope" AND conferred himself with the title "musicologist" for a similar reason, is actually saying someone "else" has a superiority complex! People's heads everywhere are beginning to explode from "irony-overload", and local EMT crews are rushing to provide first aid and cleanup! We can't confirm this, but independant sources are telling us that "Al/Scott" will soon be joining "Moon" and a select few others for an intellectual circle jerk. More details as they become available!

-john

I have not read it. Can you give me the cliff notes or some sort of summary?

you should really read it

skywild: As for those who dismiss the Peruvian archeological wonders as the work of space aliens, sorry, but that stuff is pseudo-science, superstition, science illiteracy

You know what is sad, infinity.......

Many scientists think aliens exist, so what do you think about that, Miss Smarty Pants?

And actually, I know a lot of scientists, mostly physicists and biologists, and none believe in space aliens.

skywave: Most also point to getting nothing but silence from the universe

"For good measure, in America we have switched from analogue to digital broadcasting and you are going to do the same in Britain very soon," Drake added. "When you do that, your transmissions will become four times fainter because digital uses less power."

"Very soon we will become undetectable," he said. In short, in space no one will hear us at all.

What is true for humans would probably also be true for aliens, who may already have moved to much more efficient methods of TV and radio broadcasting. Trying to find ET from their favourite shows was going to be harder than we thought, Drake said.

Gotta go with SkyWild on this.
Bow to her articulate eloquence, you heathens!

And while I would agree that it is possible that life exists elsewhere in the cosmos, my attitude is kind of So what?

moontan, I would say this. None of the scientists that I know believe that Earth is being visited or monitored by space alien or UFO beings.

Don't forget about the man-made climate change hoax.

I could envision a knowledgeable human possibly constructing such a device with available resources.

Sun big.

Laser small.

Sun win.

And time travel, too, is the stuff of imagination and science fiction.

nice try but no cigar.

anyway, the subject is UFO and things alien-related.
try to stay focused.

You were talking about all the things scientists have gotten wrong, so my comment was spot-on, dummy.

Ah, but the sun is actually a transformer, well, more precisely, a converter - not an "atomic reactor".

Calling it an atomic reactor is inaccurate

Well, one would think that modern humans living technological societies would know the difference between atomic and nuclear. All the reactors and basically all the bombs these days are nuclear. For some reason, the general public inaccurately uses the terms "atomic" and "nuclear" interchangeably.

But I suppose this is unsurprising in a country in which religions stands in opposition to science, where near half of all Americans neither believes in (nor understands) the theory of evolution and natural selection. What can one says where one in five American adults think the sun orbits the Earth, only half know how long it takes for the Earth to revolve around the Sun, and only 59% of adults know that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed (the “Flinstones model of prehistory”).

other things it could be:

* a dream he's retelling
* an early attempt at writing a science fiction story.
* too many intoxicating substances
* etc

i think it's always good to keep a sceptical mind, especially when it comes to UFO.

take the story of Ezekiel in the Bible for example.
lots of people think Ezekiel is telling a sighting of a UFO.
it could be very well be.

other things it could be:

* a dream he's retelling
* an early attempt at writing a science fiction story.
* too many intoxicating substances
* etc

i think people who are fascinated by the subject are usually too quick to jump at the UFO hypothesis.

havlicek: I don't see why conversational conventions are a problem or indicative of the fall of western society. No matter. . . . There's a way to talk about technology/science/math etc. that allows for different backgrounds and understandings without dumbing things down. My best professors did that, making sometimes very dry subjects come alive.

It seems to me that you're getting way out in front of what's going on here. There's a way to talk about technology/science/math etc. that allows for different backgrounds and understandings without dumbing things down. My best professors did that, making sometimes very dry subjects come alive. Don't get me wrong here, it's important to be precise with language...just not past a certain point....-john

Who said I have a problem? Well, actually...there is that little thing I have against pompous, poseur, douchebag, wannabes that use the internet to get their alternate identity ya yas out because they most likely can't get anyone to pay attention to their meaningless ramblings in the actual world. You fit that description to a T. Please don't feel offended by what I just said though. Just take it as "one down" on the cosmic scoreboard. I'm sure you'll live to be annoying another day, just not to me! Now go away whoever or whatever you are john

Who said I have a problem? Well, actually...there is that little thing I have against pompous, poseur, douchebag, wannabes that use the internet to get their alternate identity ya yas out because they most likely can't get anyone to pay attention to their meaningless ramblings in the actual world. You fit that description to a T. Please don't feel offended by what I just said though. Just take it as "one down" on the cosmic scoreboard. I'm sure you'll live to be annoying another day, just not to me! Now go away whoever or whatever you are

-john

and the other that no one pays attention to or takes seriously, john

I’ve seen and read quite a bit about the Nazca lines over the years. I believe it has been pretty-well established by anthropologists and geologists they were employed by the Nazca as maps for finding underground wells and aqueducts.

tnx Chris.

i am aware of Coral Castle.

for an alternating viewpoint all one has to do is Google "Coral Castle hoax".
here's one that seems to make sense:
http://www.livescience.com/680-mysterious-coral-castle-fanciful-myth.html

i try to look at both side of the medal but that would take more times than i care to give it these days.

i think it's good to err on the side of scepticism.
otherwise the sky's the limit.

...coming from the one guy who's dumb enough to call himself a "musicologist" but has no idea what a tuner does...and the other that no one pays attention to or takes seriously, this really stings! You three should start a club where you sit around at your weekly meetings and pretend to be stuff.

-john

Most scholars now believe that the Nazca Lines were sacred pathways which Nasca people followed during the course of their ancient rituals and in shamanic training.

Walking the lines under the influence of the remarkable enthogenic cactus that grows in a nearby region can open the doors of perception...

Well, Gretsch is incorrect in stating that "it has been pretty-well established by anthropologists and geologists they were employed by the Nazca as maps for finding underground wells and aqueducts."

Hogwash.

just finished the Wikipedia entry about his topic.

seems like nobody has a clue to the purpose of those things.

Well, Gretsch is incorrect in stating that "it has been pretty-well established by anthropologists and geologists they were employed by the Nazca as maps for finding underground wells and aqueducts."

Hogwash. The Nazca Desert is one of the driest places on Earth, there are no underground wells or aqueducts.

tnx gretch for the video.

i watched most of it and the documentary seems to go in the possibility that the lines were mostly for religious ceremonies and whatnot.

the reason of course why the symbols are better seen from the air is that they were drawn for the benefits of the gods and not peasants.

we can't totally exclude that those gods were ET-related but there seems to be no evidences for it in this particular case.
if we had at least the local natives going: "yeah, dude, those were made by our ancestors hundreds of years ago for the sky-people who landed and..."

but we don't even have that.

gretch: consider that Shaman believe they regularly go out of body when in their often substance-induced trances….the lines may have something to do with that (i.e., a metaphysical map to be viewed from above)