flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 02:58 PM
Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This is not political. It's factual. It's not a hit job ginned up by the hostile mainstream media. It is a story about how important leadership is, and how failures in leadership, in management, and in heeding expertise will lead to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Those failures have real consequences, and the real consequences here will be a lot of dead people of all ages.

We need to take off our individual blinders and see things as they are. We were more prepared than anyone else, and we utterly failed to leverage that preparation into action that would save lives. We failed because of incompetence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/04/04/coronavirus-government-dysfunction


Marty Gilman
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 03:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Excellent info, but Trump calls the Washington Post "phony news."

Facts don't matter. My Trump-loving friends will never have their mind changed about their demagogue. \:\(

Actually, I know of one friend who has switched and said he would like to be able to vote for Andrew Cuomo.

-m


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 05:09 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I am curious about what will happen after this passes. The death toll and economy hit is worse than a full blown war of planes soldiers and bombs.
So where will the government put its resources after this passes? The military has been funded to keep us safe, protect our freedoms. The Virus has removed both of those military reasons in an instant.
I know what I would like to see and I know that will never happen.


grachus
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 06:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

man when trump does a press conference and actually calls the reporter from cnn or Washington post the fake news I wish they would address him as mr Impeached president

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 06:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
We need to take off our individual blinders and see things as they are. We were more prepared than anyone else, and we utterly failed to leverage that preparation into action that would save lives. We failed because of incompetence.


And this is where it fails. There are some who will not admit that the blinders they are wearing actually exist. Their blinders are working perfectly.

And so those unnecessary deaths are going to happen and they won't be seen by those wearing blinders. Even if it happens to them.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 07:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: grachus
man when trump does a press conference and actually calls the reporter from cnn or Washington post the fake news I wish they would address him as mr Impeached president


I wish I could be a reporter asking Drumpf questions, but I would just be escorted out here in our new democracy.
But if I could I'd ask Drumpf if he uses Alex Jones Coronavirus cure toothpaste. I'm think Drumpf might since so many people who have been around him have the virus and the inner circle appearing to be immune while ignoring social distancing and masks.
Hey everybody use the same microphone!
I've got syphilis, use my condom!


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 07:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

5G is the culprit

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 07:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Feb. 28
“It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
-trump.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 08:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
Feb. 28
“It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
-trump.


March 10th-

"It will go away, just stay calm," "Be calm. It's really working out. And a lot of good things are going to happen."

Please DO NOT vote this complete phucking moron in for another term.

Haven't we all had enough lunacy and totally idiotic decisions from this 100% incompetent wanna-be already???

Let's do whatever we can to get back to some sense of normalcy, and return to the 21st Century. Hopefully at a point in time where there's still a democratic system with people in charge that at least understand how things work, and can make fairly good decisions 7 days a week; and NOT just a five day work week, then head off to their posh resort on the weekends to unwind from turning everything to sh*t they've touched all week long.

What would you all think of THAT solution???

. . Falcon


Alan
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 08:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Trump is a fucking count!

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 08:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Regarding masks: "I won't be doing it personally. It's a recommendation, okay?" - Donald Trump, 3 April 2020

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 10:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I see a lot of hindsight and bashing.

Tell me how Hillary would have handled things better.


FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 10:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Today, my wife scored a coveted N95 face mask. We're at the point now, where they are impossible to find. Amazon listed them for a month and a half delivery, which might be postponed or canceled anyway.

The White House has been vacillating back and forth on recommending them, so the limited supply has been hoarded out of commercial existence.

Now my wife is driving out to the periphery of town to a Walgreens that is rumored to have some in stock. We'll see how that goes...


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
I see a lot of hindsight and bashing.

Tell me how Hillary would have handled things better.


I don't have to. She isn't president. She's a private citizen.

The deaths of thousands of Americans were avoidable. That's just a fact. That isn't partisan - it's just true.


FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

and while we're distracted, he fires another intelligence community watchdog. Quietly removing everyone who holds him accountable.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It looks very partisan.

So far about 8400 deaths....

Influenza was responsible for 80,000 deaths last year.

The country is taking unprecedented measures to curb the spread.

Short of going into an instant police state, what else could we be doing? 300,000,000 people don't turn on a dime.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Also while we're distracted, the House is quietly working on HR 5717. Thankfully the Senate will kill it.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
I see a lot of hindsight and bashing.

Tell me how Hillary would have handled things better.


I don't have to. She isn't president. She's a private citizen.

The deaths of thousands of Americans were avoidable. That's just a fact. That isn't partisan - it's just true.


Although flatcats answer make sense, I don't mind nonsense. I think Hillary would have done poorly but not as bad as Drumpf. Like Drumpf she would have crafted response through what is best for her politically. She has a history of such behavior, remember she became a hawk when it was best for political ambitions. The trouble though is we have Drumpf and he hasn't shown himself to be any different than the swamp dwellers he was suppose to drain. I guess business politics crosses over easily to politician politics.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
It looks very partisan.

So far about 8400 deaths....

Influenza was responsible for 80,000 deaths last year.

The country is taking unprecedented measures to curb the spread.

Short of going into an instant police state, what else could we be doing? 300,000,000 people don't turn on a dime.



Drumpf waited to long to respond. They will now be working how to spin it another way while trying to get this under control. I think time spent on these two tasks will be 50/50 at best. Not sure 80,000 in correct btw.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
I see a lot of hindsight and bashing.



oh jesus christ, MF'r,
is that all you got?!!

dude,
really,
get a clue


i really want you to,,,,,,


i'm rooting for you.



to get a clue.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

blood is on the hands.
it's his watch.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/04/20 11:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

wait until someone near and dear to you,
dies of covid 19.

that is all it takes to change your perspective.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Trump’s Firing of Michael Atkinson Reveals His Real Priorities—and They’re Not Coronavirus


Trump’s firing of intelligence community inspector general Michael Atkinson sends every dark signal you think it does, and more.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:13 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Motherfucker yourself.

The blood would be on the hands of the whole fucking bunch of these assholes in DC.

The Dems pulled the race card the minute a travel ban was brought up.

If the House felt so strongly about the health and safety of the citizenry, they could have delayed impeachment and focused on the threat.

We are in the risk group and cases in our area are growing as a result of the influx of people coming to their 2nd homes from the metro area.

If we hope to pull through this, people need to quit being such arrogant dickheads.

No need to call me motherfucker, motherfucker.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:16 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

And hes dying to fire Dr. Anthony Fauci as well. Fauci, is the nation’s foremost expert on infectious diseases and a member of the president's task force. But it will be for a valid reason...lack of loyalty, which just happens to rhyme with Royalty.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:21 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"If the House felt so strongly about the health and safety of the citizenry, they could have delayed impeachment and focused on the threat."

This is why Fox News is a health threat. Gobble up all the facts from Fox fast as you can. The lawsuits coming their way will shut them down as Fox shut Bill O'Reilly down.

Everyone from arrogant dickheads to Mother Teresa aren't free from catching the virus. Alex Jones toothpaste is the only know protection/cure, that is why Drumpf and inner circle test negative.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:21 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
It looks very partisan.

So far about 8400 deaths....

Influenza was responsible for 80,000 deaths last year.

The country is taking unprecedented measures to curb the spread.

Short of going into an instant police state, what else could we be doing? 300,000,000 people don't turn on a dime.



Well, if you read the article, you might know that "going into an instant police state" wasn't necessary. The president started getting briefed about this in January. He could have taken many, many steps to have helped position this country so that when it hit, the impact would have been less severe than it is going to be.

Unfortunately, he didn't do that. He talked about how insignificant it was. He talked about how the flu is more severe - just like you did. Instead of acting, he did the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going LALALALALA. And that's a problem because all during that time, the virus was coming. And landing. And infecting people. And those people, with no symptoms, were spreading it.

He wasted valuable time, and continues to do so. And now it's too late.

It's not just on him. The governors of many states have not insisted on social distancing or quarantining, and all this time, the virus has been spreading. Many of them, interestingly, are Republicans, though. So if it's partisan, maybe that's where that comes in - Republicans don't believe in epidemiology, maybe?

You're a nice guy, but this is going to get bad, especially in the next few weeks. It's coming to where you live whether you want it or not. A lot of people are going to die, many more than die annually with the flu. It didn't have to be this bad. Because of inaction and incompetence, however, it will be.

I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:25 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here are 8 reasons why this has become worse. If any on this list is Fake News, please let me know. I don't want to be one of...Them

1. President Trump at first downplayed the coronavirus, and then he later sent mixed messages about it.

2. Trump and his administration saw the virus – and initially reacted to it – primarily as an immigration/travel/border issuerather than a health one.

3. Trump consistently attacked critical Democrats (like Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and most recently Sen. Chuck Schumer), while he singled out Republicans for praise.

4. The administration didn’t heed classified warnings from the intelligence community -- back in January and February -- about the dangers the coronavirus posed for the global community.

5. The administration, in 2018, disbanded its National Security Council pandemic team.

6. The administration eliminated a CDC job dedicated to detecting outbreaks in China.

7. The Department of Homeland Security, which plays a vital role in responding to disasters, remains staffed with an acting secretary, an acting chief of staff, an acting general counsel and a vacancy at deputy secretary.

8. The Centers for Disease Control’s initial coronavirus test failed, resulting in a lost month to combat the virus.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:28 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

And right out of the gate you had Rush Limbaugh claiming it was a hoax. Drumpf listens to and pins medals on Rush and ignores qualified sources.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:34 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits


If the House felt so strongly about the health and safety of the citizenry, they could have delayed impeachment and focused on the threat.


But that's not how it works. It's not the House's job to manage the response to this. It's the executive branch's job. It's HHS, CDC, and ultimately the president, to marshall the experts and use the tools in the toolbox to start preparing, to come up with a plan, to work with other governments, to start getting various departments ready to act and get resources and tools they need.

In addition, it's not like the entire executive branch was involved in the impeachment trial and/or hearings. The president himself called it illegitimate and refused to participate. So if that's the case, he had plenty of time to get people working on this.

This argument involving impeachment doesn't hold water. I'm sorry, it's just not relevant.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:40 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
So if it's partisan, maybe that's where that comes in - Republicans don't believe in epidemiology, maybe?


Little known fact, Republicans don't like science or anything that has "ology" in the name. But to be fair Republicans do enjoy Helminthology. It is a form of self reflection for them.


Funky Low End
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:43 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

TDS

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:52 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family.


I feel the same way towards everyone here.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 12:57 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
TDS

Haha....funky nut ok some like science.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 01:07 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
TDS


It's on full display here......it is usually amusing.....other times, not so much.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 01:20 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
TDS


It's on full display here......it is usually amusing.....other times, not so much.


What is always funny is that is all you Trump Cultists can offer...ha!


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 02:13 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

South Korea had their first reported infection on the exact same day as the US. They have, on a per capita basis, 4 times fewer deaths and infections than the US, and the US is still growing exponentially.
Why the difference ? South Korea immediately started large scale testing and tracking of infected individuals. They did not have a police state lockdown. They prevented it from spreading by use of technology , and by quarantining and testing only infected individuals and who they had contact with.
The US spent 6 weeks denying it was a problem, to the extent that it became too late to adopt that technique, even if the US had the testing capability - which they didn’t.
Even now, you are still in denial about the severity of this. Even now , you are still talking about a comparison to the flu.
Recent polls have shown that republicans are almost twice as likely as Democrats to think the virus is no big deal.

Why is that, I wonder ?
Could it be they are still taking their cue from trump and his media worshippers ?
At what number of deaths will you be convinced that this should have been acted on much sooner ? 100,00 ? 200,000 ?
Speculating what Hillary would have done is stupid. We will never know, We only know what trump has done - or didn’t do


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 02:21 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Btw, where did you get the 80,000 flu deaths last year from ?
Some blogger or Fox News ?
The CDC estimated last year deaths from flu last year was 35,000, spread over the year.
I realize CDC doesn’t have the same weight in your eyes as an opinion piece on Fox News, but it is their job to keep these figures.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 03:19 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Bill
I feel the same way towards everyone here


Then please don't ever support anything that Donald Trump is promoting. If you truly want to help your countryfolk and the people of the world them please do what you can to get Donald J. Trump out of the White House. That's the best thing you do for everyone.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 03:25 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Oh oh I see a VS Planet Pandemic happening...it is the TDS Virus. Already Doofie and Fried Morris are infected. If nothing is done and this gets out of hand and the VS Planet doesn't act now..someone else will be to blame.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 03:30 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Or maybe things will work out okay, and people will learn what it takes to get along in this world.

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 03:51 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I simply can't believe that it would occur to ANYONE to defend this guy. I won't be gaslighted. I can't be hypnotized. It's not a partisan ideological teamism issue. The guy is a walking talking narcissistic serial lying ego maniac shyster. To the extreme. There is no question about this. It is out in the open.

My god how did we get here?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 04:06 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
My god how did we get here?


Depression.... a nation of depressed, unhappy people and someone else is responsible. So you go for the extreme, hoping for relief. But the extreme pans out no better than buying something you don't need or often can't afford, the depression still exists. And the extreme choice works exactly like the depressed purchase, it doesn't solve the problem and you are deeper in debt.

Any other questions? Who invent the wheel? Why men have nipples?


Funky Low End
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 04:12 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
I simply can't believe that it would occur to ANYONE to defend this guy. I won't be gaslighted. I can't be hypnotized. It's not a partisan ideological teamism issue. The guy is a walking talking narcissistic serial lying ego maniac shyster. To the extreme. There is no question about this. It is out in the open.

My god how did we get here?




C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 04:35 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 05:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Doofie

Then please don't ever support anything that Donald Trump is promoting.


Does that include fighting Covid 19?

You guys are so ate up with hate, we may never recover.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 05:51 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yup we need to embrace and love needless deaths. I'm working on it, I'm up to thoughts and prayers. And I agree on the recover part, so that's something in common.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 01:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It's not hate that causes me to oppose Donny. Actually it's love.

Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 02:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are


Nancy Pelosi caring about Corona Virus Trump mentioned in his State of the Union. Not political, just facts.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 02:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt

Nancy Pelosi caring about Corona Virus Trump mentioned in his State of the Union. Not political, just facts.


And this is what he said

"We are coordinating with the Chinese government and working closely together on the coronavirus outbreak in China. My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from this threat."

Then why did he call it a hoax and cost people their lives? Or say this will disappear in April with the warm weather? Also costing people their lives.

BTW this is what Pelosi is tearing up

"Three years ago, we launched the great American comeback. Tonight, I stand before you to share the incredible results. Jobs are booming, incomes are soaring, poverty is plummeting, crime is falling, confidence is surging, and our country is thriving and highly respected again. (Applesauce.) America’s enemies are on the run, America’s fortunes are on the rise, and America’s future is blazing bright.
The years of economic decay are over."

What a visionary, lol. How's that smaller government fantasy working out for ya?


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 03:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt

Nancy Pelosi caring about Corona Virus Trump mentioned in his State of the Union. Not political, just facts.


And this is what he said

"We are coordinating with the Chinese government and working closely together on the coronavirus outbreak in China. My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from this threat."

Then why did he call it a hoax and cost people their lives? Or say this will disappear in April with the warm weather? Also costing people their lives.

BTW this is what Pelosi is tearing up

"Three years ago, we launched the great American comeback. Tonight, I stand before you to share the incredible results. Jobs are booming, incomes are soaring, poverty is plummeting, crime is falling, confidence is surging, and our country is thriving and highly respected again. (Applesauce.) America’s enemies are on the run, America’s fortunes are on the rise, and America’s future is blazing bright.
The years of economic decay are over."

What a visionary, lol. How's that smaller government fantasy working out for ya?


^^^^^^

Not political, Just facts.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 05:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt

Nancy Pelosi caring about Corona Virus Trump mentioned in his State of the Union. Not political, just facts.


This is a duck I am holding in my hands (holds a shoe)


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 06:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

How long did China censor information on this? They had the opportunity to make the biggest impact. Yet no one mentions that.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 06:27 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

They are continuing to censor information about it. It is true that what they revealed to the world had pretty dire consequences - particularly in Italy. But it sounds like the intelligence community knew that and was trying to tell the White House, but the White House wasn't listening.

The coronavirus isn't anyone's fault. I'm not saying it is, and neither is the Post. But our response to it was dilatory and inadequate, and continues to be so. And because of that, a lot of people are going to die who might not have otherwise. And that is a failure of leadership.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 06:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
How long did China censor information on this? They had the opportunity to make the biggest impact. Yet no one mentions that.

Actually Trump did. You remember that ?
He said China was doing a great job, and China had it under control. This, at the same time as his experts were trying to tell him they weren’t, and didn’t.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 06:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Tom I admire your faith in your fellow humans and relentlessness in trying to share information. I try with people I know and care about personally and it doesn't make a dent. They just don't want to hear it and it is why such talk needed it's own section here, so people just don't have to hear it.
This would be all fine and dandy except those who don't want to hear vote, so I go down with their misinformed choices.
It comes down to this, the one who spins and lies best, wins!


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 06:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
 Originally Posted By: guitartb
How long did China censor information on this? They had the opportunity to make the biggest impact. Yet no one mentions that.

Actually Trump did. You remember that ?
He said China was doing a great job, and China had it under control. This, at the same time as his experts were trying to tell him they weren’t, and didn’t.


This is true, does anyone think this is false?



Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

For those that think this is partisan unfairness: Clear your mind... and think back a few years... and just imagine if this was the Obama Admin. - under these exact same circumstances.

Am I to believe that the unbridled VICIOUSNESS aimed at his administration back then would be idle today? Understanding? Sympathetic?


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

On Thursday, the New York Times made a big fuss over the fact that more than 81,321 Americans have been infected with the coronavirus, which is "more cases than China, Italy or any other country has seen."

According to their report, the United States, following "a series of missteps," is now "the epicenter of the pandemic."

But, is it really?

China's confirmed cases topped out at around 80,000, but, as PJM's Victoria Taft noted, China reportedly stopped conducting tests in order to show the world they've contained the spread of the virus. So, comparing any country to China at this point is useless.

Here are the top six countries by confirmed cases (based on the case numbers from the Center for Systems Science and Engineering at Johns Hopkins University as of 2:30 pm ET March 27) in descending order:

USA (94,238)
Italy (86,498)
Spain (64,059)
Germany (49,344)
Iran (32,332)
France (29,593)
Now, here are the top six countries by confirmed cases per million people (based on population numbers from the CIA World Fact Book) in descending order:

Italy (1386.13)
Spain (1280.78)
Germany (615.57)
France (436.17)
Iran (380.72)
USA (283.30)
Well, isn't that interesting? The United States' confirmed cases per capita are the lowest of the top six countries affected by the virus. Now, there are some who would argue that the United States testing lags behind that of other countries. If we want to assume that there is a discrepancy in testing between countries and that selection bias in testing undercounts the infection rate, then the number of coronavirus deaths is a more accurate way of measuring the impact of the pandemic in each country. So, let's look at total confirmed deaths in descending order.

Italy (9,134)
Spain (4,934)
Iran (2,378)
France (1,698)
USA (1,438)
Germany (304)
Germany looks pretty good compared to everyone else, doesn't it? But, let's look at confirmed deaths per million people in descending order, to see how that changes things:

Italy (146.37)
Spain (98.65)
Iran (28.00)
France (25.03)
USA (4.32)
Germany (3.79)
Interesting indeed! Germany and the United States have significantly better coronavirus death rates per capita than Italy, Spain, Iran and France. A lot better. This is why the media avoids per capita measurements for confirmed cases, but conveniently remembered when it wanted to fact-check Trump's testing numbers.

The media wants you to believe that the coronavirus in the United States is spiraling out of control the way it did in Italy. Fact check: it isn't.




https://pjmedia.com/trending/what-the-me...CX0U1YmC28ASSiA


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
For those that think this is a partisan unfairness: Clear your mind... and think back a few years... and just imagine if this was the Obama Admin. - under these exact same circumstances.

Am I to believe that the unbridled VICIOUSNESS aimed at his administration back then would be idle today?



The media would have given Obama a thorough ass kissing....always did, always will.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I didn't say anything about the media. That was not my question at all.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Have you seen the graphs where the US is tracking Italy, but 2 weeks behind ?
The US testing rate is still abysmal compared to other countries.
It isn’t the media saying this, it is the medical leaders in the US are saying it.
Even Trump is now saying that deaths could be 200,000 plus.
Do you seriously believe that this virus is the same as the flu , and it will be over soon ?


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits

According to their report, the United States, following "a series of missteps," is now "the epicenter of the pandemic."

But, is it really?


USA (94,238)


That was 9 days ago. We'll hit approx 350,000 (known) cases later today. Cases have more than quadrupled in a little over a week.

 Quote:
Matt Margolis is the author of Trumping Obama: How President Trump Saved Us From Barack Obama’s Legacy and the bestselling book The Worst President in History: The Legacy of Barack Obama


\:D


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

NYT: U.S. death toll understated

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I'm still trying to figure where 80.000 deaths a year from the influenza came from?
Whatever the figure the death tolls from this are going to be greater and that is with most people in quarantine situations. The toll would be through the roof if it was handled like a yearly influenza. So the the saying of "its just a flu", is hazardous to your health information, aka Fake News.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When the dust of the corpses settle, we will find per capita cases greater in the states that lost precious time by believing the hoax information.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

U.S. 'wasted' months before preparing for virus pandemic

The first alarms sounded in early January that the outbreak of a novel coronavirus in China would ignite a global pandemic

the Trump administration squandered nearly two months that could have been used to bolster the federal stockpile of critically needed medical supplies and equipment.

federal agencies largely waited until mid-March to begin placing bulk orders of N95 respirator masks, mechanical ventilators and other equipment needed by front-line health care workers.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/...e_headlines_hed


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits

According to their report, the United States, following "a series of missteps," is now "the epicenter of the pandemic."

But, is it really?


USA (94,238)


That was 9 days ago. We'll hit approx 350,000 (known) cases later today. Cases have more than quadrupled in a little over a week.

 Quote:
Matt Margolis is the author of Trumping Obama: How President Trump Saved Us From Barack Obama’s Legacy and the bestselling book The Worst President in History: The Legacy of Barack Obama


\:D


Jesus, Vanillagrits, if you are going to post articles to “prove” this is no big deal, try and find something recent. Do you understand what exponential growth means ?
You should look it up


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 07:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Some facts and timelines in regards to the claims that China covered up their outbreak.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 08:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Webster
For those that think this is a partisan unfairness: Clear your mind... and think back a few years... and just imagine if this was the Obama Admin. - under these exact same circumstances.

Am I to believe that the unbridled VICIOUSNESS aimed at his administration back then would be idle today?



The media would have given Obama a thorough ass kissing....always did, always will.


You can make this argument but it requires dismissing that there plenty of media sources that kiss Drumpf's ass.
The media is a business, they are first and foremost going to give it's viewers what they want to hear, it is how they make their profits.
And then there are times when the entire media is on one page, like during BabyBush's desires for retaliation and war for 9/11. That coverage was almost completely free of any questioning of the narrative coming from the White House.
And Hollywood, actors should shut their mouths is heard often but during WW2 Hollywood was like a propaganda machine for the government, right or wrong.
And Blacklisting, Tim Allen and Dennis Miller, etc. whine about their conservatives views hurting their work, but that is nothing compared to the Blacklisting in the pass where those who didn't lock step to the establishment were essentially ruined.
And the best for last, the 2016 media coverage of Drumpf helped him. He got free entire media coverage few of the other candidates received just by saying outrageous things. Weighing the plus and minus of the coverage, it benefited Drumpf.


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 09:09 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Webster
For those that think this is a partisan unfairness: Clear your mind... and think back a few years... and just imagine if this was the Obama Admin. - under these exact same circumstances.

Am I to believe that the unbridled VICIOUSNESS aimed at his administration back then would be idle today?



The media would have given Obama a thorough ass kissing....always did, always will.


Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 09:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Vanillagrits, did you at first consider the Corona Virus a hoax?

guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 09:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Italy is the only country ahead of us with number of tests per capita.

Data

So it makes sense the number of cases here is growing so rapidly as the testing ramps up. This will go a long way to slowing the spread and expansive data obviously good for predictive modeling.


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 09:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are


[img][/img]

[img][/img]


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Well, that looks great until you consider that we have a population six times as large as Italy's, and that we are running 2-3 weeks behind them. We don't have widely available tests. We don't have a good tally of deaths due to COVID-19. We don't have a good number of cases or infections of Corona virus because we didn't have tests and the tests we have are still not widely available.

Really - if you think this is no big deal, well go with God and sin no more. I certainly hope neither you nor your families are affected by it.

Just today, one of my closest friends lost his father to it.

It's coming.

You know, too, it's not just virus. It's the inability of the medical system to deal with so many cases at once. When this starts hitting the states where there aren't and haven't been stay at home orders, it's going to hit hard - they all tend not to have robust medical infrastructure, unlike some of the hard-hit places to this point (Washington, New York, Massachusetts). So when it comes and fully flowers and people start getting sick in droves, they will have nowhere to go for help and for many of them, they will not be able to do anything but die.

It did not have to be as severe as it's going to be. While the virus itself could not have been prevented, a failure of leadership will be the cause of many thousands of deaths of our fellow citizens.

As Dr. Brix has said, the next two weeks are going to be critical. We'll see what happens. Hold on tight.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Wish

Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?


All I see is a bunch of armchair quarterbacking by people who have nothing but 20/20 hindsight and an almost insane desire to see the current president fail. I honestly believe if there was a Democrat in the office with the same results as today their attitude would be 180 degrees different.

This is a major crisis like we've never seen.
Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president....another president might have been more apologetic...would that have saved any lives?

If the majority here want to stomp their feet and throw fits because they hate Trump, that's their choice.

I choose to look for the best way forward.


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president.."

No any other president would have listened to his intel agencies when presented with facts. Put your seat belt on, this coming week and the next will rock your misplaced faith.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Drumpf up to this has been my favorite comedian. When elected I didn't immediately take a Mitch McConnell's stance, like wishing Obama failure, and hoped things would go along well enough.
But the revolving door of people coming and going and people going off to jail changed my feelings. I have always thought the guy was a con man but that the career government employees would keep things on the rails. Drumpf's style just doesn't cut it when things get tough. His habit of lying doesn't cut it when things get tough and my favorite comedian isn't so funny anymore when his lying costs lives. He has never taken the job seriously.
My focus isn't hate for Drumpf, my focus is people receiving the truth and care they deserve.

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Flat, the first pic is per capita-it takes population into consideration.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?


What do you think? You must have an opinion since you've asked the question so many times.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
Flat, the first pic is per capita-it takes population into consideration.

The first pic is per capita daily tests. The last pic is per capita total tests. The US is still trailing in total tests per capita, but the daily rate is better.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Wish

Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?


All I see is a bunch of armchair quarterbacking by people who have nothing but 20/20 hindsight and an almost insane desire to see the current president fail. I honestly believe if there was a Democrat in the office with the same results as today their attitude would be 180 degrees different.

This is a major crisis like we've never seen.
Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president....another president might have been more apologetic...would that have saved any lives?

If the majority here want to stomp their feet and throw fits because they hate Trump, that's their choice.

I choose to look for the best way forward.

You are missing the point. It’s not that we have an insane desire to see him fail. We are pointing out that he HAS failed, in a big way - which is going to cost a lot of American lives.
Even that is not the issue. It’s the fact that he is continuing to fail. If you are truly looking for the best way forward, it’s blindingly obvious that you won’t get it from this man, or his administration.
Simple example ?
On Saturday he told Americans that they should take the anti malarial drug. Dr Fauci was asked that question on Sunday, and he said no - they should not take it. What kind of shit leadership is that ?
Should Americans listen to Dr Trump or Dr Fauci ?
Trump cannot stop blabbering a random stream of unconnected thoughts, with no basis in fact or science
Is that what is going to provide the best way forward ?


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 10:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Dave, but trailing only to Italy where they had massive death rates.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

From The New York Times:

The U.S. is undercounting the number of people who have died in the pandemic, experts say.

Hospital officials, public health experts and medical examiners say that official tallies of Americans said to have died in the pandemic do not capture the overall number of virus-related deaths, leaving the public with a limited understanding of the outbreak’s true toll.

Limited resources and a patchwork of decision making from one state or county to the next have contributed to the undercount. With no uniform system for reporting coronavirus-related deaths in the United States, and a continuing shortage of tests, some states and counties have improvised, obfuscated and, at times, backtracked in counting the dead.

Adding to the complications, different jurisdictions are using distinct standards for attributing a death to the coronavirus and, in some cases, relying on techniques that would lower the overall count of fatalities.

A coroner in Indiana wanted to know if the coronavirus had killed a man in early March, but said that her health department denied a test. Paramedics in New York City say that many patients who died at home were never tested for the coronavirus, even if they showed telltale signs of infection.

In Virginia, a funeral director prepared the remains of three people after health workers cautioned her that they each had tested positive. But only one of the three had the virus noted on the death certificate.

Doctors now believe that some deaths in February and early March were likely misidentified as influenza or only described as pneumonia.

Even under typical circumstances, public health experts say that it takes months or years to compile data that is as accurate as possible on deaths in infectious outbreaks.

But they also say that an accurate count of deaths is an essential tool to understand a disease outbreak as it unfolds: The more deadly a disease, the more aggressively the authorities are willing to disrupt normal life. Precise death counts can also inform the federal government on how to target resources, like ventilators from the national stockpile, to the areas of the country with the most desperate need.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:05 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?


What do you think? You must have an opinion since you've asked the question so many times.


Cranky aren't wee. I guess not willing to answer is an answer in itself.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Dave is exactly right: it's not just that he has failed utterly to provide leadership and allow the experts to do their jobs. It is that he is *continuing* to fail to do so. Those ongoing failures are going to cost real, honest-to-God human lives. Actual people are going to die.

It's not a question of being "out to get anyone". It's an ongoing failure of leadership that happens *daily*.

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is. It doesn't illustrate his inability to manage and lead.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don't think compassion comes easily to Drumpf. Masshole Republican Governor Charlie Baker broke into tears the other day while dealing with the situation. He has been doing a good job for us Massholes.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is.


I just heard him speak of it in today's briefing.


But it's your house, go ahead and be right.


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/05/20 11:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.


There you go using logic.


Andy McClelland
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:08 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Population adjusted numbers as of the date and time of this post:

Cases per 1M population:
World average - 163
US - 1,016
And for comparison Canada - 411

Deaths per 1M population:
World average - 8.9
US - 29
Canada - 7

Source


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:41 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is.


I just heard him speak of it in today's briefing.


But it's your house, go ahead and be right.


If he did so, I'm glad to hear it and I happily stand corrected.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:51 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Andy McClelland
Population adjusted numbers as of the date and time of this post:

Cases per 1M population:
World average - 163
US - 1,016
And for comparison Canada - 411jj

Deaths per 1M population:
World average - 8.9
US - 29
Canada - 7

Source


Wow! Google is gonna break from searches to contradict these figures.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

To be fair though are numbers enough to judge management of the virus? A country with a spread out population would fair better than a country with large cities?

guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:09 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:11 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:21 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020


The countries on this list are a couple of weeks or more into the virus than the USA.


FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:49 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I have to wonder how a November re-election campaign has impacted trump's spin on facts and figures he surely must have had at his easy and early disposal.

Another of my big questions, is why is there such a shortage of face masks and gloves. People are making them at home. It's unimaginable that the federal government's longtime spin was, "healthy people don't need them, just sick people". Even this week, the local grocery store was full of people without masks.

I emailed the office of the Governor (Abbot in Texas) and the State Department of Health noting the shortage of masks in Dialysis Clinics. I got fairly prompt responses from both - but not pointing me to a source, or even reassurance that some are on the way, just blah-blah-blah links to general information sites.

A coherant, cohesive national policy would be nice, but trump has let each state take their own direction - I'm guessing just so he can point the finger at them for their inevitable failure to save lives.

We're on our own, at every level of government.


Memphis Monroe
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 02:21 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: FatherApe
I have to wonder how a November re-election campaign has impacted trump's spin on facts and figures he surely must have had at his easy and early disposal.

Another of my big questions, is why is there such a shortage of face masks and gloves. People are making them at home. It's unimaginable that the federal government's longtime spin was, "healthy people don't need them, just sick people". Even this week, the local grocery store was full of people without masks.

I emailed the office of the Governor (Abbot in Texas) and the State Department of Health noting the shortage of masks in Dialysis Clinics. I got fairly prompt responses from both - but not pointing me to a source, or even reassurance that some are on the way, just blah-blah-blah links to general information sites.

A coherant, cohesive national policy would be nice, but trump has let each state take their own direction - I'm guessing just so he can point the finger at them for their inevitable failure to save lives.

We're on our own, at every level of government.


We really are on our own. The narcissistic orange Cheeto and his flying monkeys wanted to destroy this country and our government, and they are succeeding. States being allowed to shutdown on a state-by-state basis is akin to having a peeing section in a swimming pool... How f****** stupid can you be?... until every state and county in each state shuts down and until the very last infected person is quarantined this virus will continue to spread. Not only that, but this is coming in waves and will continue to for a long time.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 02:31 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.


Yes, agreed. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world, though - right ?
You would expect and assume that they would be measurably better than everybody else.
We will see what the results are


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 02:35 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020


You haven’t hit the peak yet. You know that, right ? Give it another 3 weeks


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 03:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The claim that any president would have made the same mistakes can't be correct. Other countries have different leaders who have responded differently and those countries have experienced different results.

Donny's administration got rid of the people who would have provided valuable information and advice. A different administration would not have done that and so the response would have been different and results would have been better.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 10:48 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

'grits..."I choose to look for the best way forward."

As do we all. However, with Trump standing firmly at the front of the podium spouting his daily updates, with fantasy induced moronic insertions, and off script off the wall unqualified and undigestible rhetoric, so people can scream at their TV's in a useless effort to silence this idiotic charlaton.

You're damn right we hate him, and rightly so.

On March 13 Kristin Welker of NBC news asked him if he was to blame for the lag in testing (since he was slower than an old hound dog gettin' up off the porch before takin' a sh*t in the bushes).

You know what he said 'grits???

“No, I don’t take responsibility at all.” he said to her with that smug look on his face. He immediately went to his number one, top of his charts, hit list strategy ...BLAME OBAMA!

“We were given rules, regulations, and specifications from a different time.”

ABSOLUTE BULLSH*t . No Obama-Era regulation THAT CURRENTLY REMAINS has stalled, circumvented, prevented, or blocked, IN ANY WAY; the rolling out of testing by the Trump administration .

Later, Yamiche Alcindor of the PBS NewsHour questioned him about the pandemic-preparedness office that was dismantled, but was a part of the National Security Council.

She lead off by saying, “You said that you don’t take responsibility, but you DID disband the White House pandemic office,*” she said. “The officials that worked in that office said the White House lost valuable time because that office was disbanded......"

“I just think it’s a nasty question” the president snapped back.

Now, for a little background, just so you get the FULL picture here... The National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Bio Defense was created in 2014, during the Ebola outbreak in Western Africa and was charged with the prevention of following disease outbreaks from advancing into a state of pandemic.

It was a brilliant move and one that was critical in nature after multiple experts in the field of virology, and infectious & communicable diseases had determined such a department was necessary to run point for the possibility of a global viral killer for which there was no known cure.

In 2018, in his infinite wisdom, the Trump administration dissolved the office.

*When you say me, I didn’t do it,” the president continued. “We have a group of people, I could ask, perhaps my administration.” Then he looked over at Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease Center. “Perhaps I could ask Tony about that? Because I don’t know anything about that.”

This man simply REFUSES TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for anything that turns to sh*t because of him. "Hey...let's throw THIS guy under the bus...or, THAT woman under the bus (I heard she's a BITCH anyway)." EVERYTHING turns to sh*t this guy touches...or DOESN'T touch.

There could be TWO people in a room...you and him...all of a sudden you smell a really egg type fart odor. You KNOW YOU didn't do it.

Trump says, "Hey, it wasn't me...I didn't fart! You farted. Somebody come get this guy and take him out of here...HE's FARTING, and HE won't admit it.

Trump is a quite simply an atrociously bad leader. Being a pathological liar, ego maniac, and narcissist are only THREE of the reasons why.

Having the actual ABILITY to move forward means we, as a country, need to remove all impediments from our path. Trump is a MAJOR impediment since he's a MAJOR part of the problem, and outside of having a SIGNATURE that verifies he's the POTUS, he's had NOTHING TO DO with being part of the SOLUTION since he took office.

Remember, you can always GET a job, but can you DO that job???

. . Falcon


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

From The New York Times:

 Quote:
President Trump doubled down on Sunday on his push for the use of an anti-malarial drug against the coronavirus, issuing medical advice that goes well beyond scant evidence of the drug’s effectiveness as well as the advice of doctors and public health experts.

Mr. Trump’s recommendation of hydroxychloroquine, for the second day in a row at a White House briefing, was a striking example of his brazen willingness to distort and outright defy expert opinion and scientific evidence when it does not suit his agenda.

Mr. Trump suggested he was speaking on gut instinct, and acknowledged he had no expertise on the subject.

“But what do I know? I’m not a doctor,” Mr. Trump said, after recommending the anti-malaria drug’s use for coronavirus patients as well as medical personnel at high risk of infection.

“If it does work, it would be a shame we did not do it early,” Mr. Trump said, noting again that the federal government had purchased and stockpiled 29 million doses of the drug.

“What do you have to lose?” Mr. Trump asked, for the second day in a row.

When a reporter asked Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, to weigh in on the question of using hydroxychloroquine, Mr. Trump stopped him from answering. As the reporter noted that Dr. Fauci was the president’s medical expert, Mr. Trump made it clear he did not want the doctor to answer.

“He’s answered the question 15 times,” the president said, stepping toward the lectern where Dr. Fauci was standing.

On Saturday, Dr. Fauci had privately challenged rising optimism about the drug’s efficacy during a meeting of the coronavirus task force in the White House’s Situation Room, according to two people familiar with the events. The argument was first reported by the website Axios.

Peter Navarro, the president’s trade adviser who is overseeing supply chain issues related to the coronavirus, plopped a sheaf of folders on the table and said he had seen several studies from various countries, as well as information culled from C.D.C. officials, showing the “clear” efficacy of chloroquines in treating the coronavirus.

Dr. Fauci pushed back, echoing remarks he has made in a series of interviews in the last week that rigorous study is still necessary. Mr. Navarro, an economist by training, shot back that the information he had collected was “science,” according to the people familiar with what took place.


What do you have to lose? Well - in some cases, your life. At least one couple observed that chloroquine was in the chemicals they use for treating their swimming pool. They both took it. The husband died.

Or, if Dr. Fauci is right and Mr. Navarro is wrong, you could potentially lose your life to COVID-19 or comorbid problems. Because we don't know whether it's efficacious or not.

But that has not stopped the president from recommending it, despite his protestations of "But I'm not a doctor". This is irresponsible.

The Washington Post reports that this particular recommendation of the president's has been encouraged by former mayor Giuliani.

It may be efficacious. But we do not know. Recommending that people take it is not responsible. That's not leadership.


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"Yes, agreed. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world, though - right ?
You would expect and assume that they would be measurably better than everybody else."

A country is as great as it's most despicable, its most deplorable citizens. I just made that up, but it sure sounds about right. Time for the pitchforks to come out folks, or you can leave it to the Covid to handle. It has found a home that it will have a hard time leaving, thanks to Trump and his cult.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Your posts always have such pretty colors. Is it possible to provide a legend that denotes the meaning behind the colors?

Is it just a random selection?

BTW.....I get it, you hate everything about Trump.... I can agree with you that he's an arogant asshole..........big deal.
There's no shortage of arrogance and assholiness around here.

I would offer a suggestion that you channel the energy you used to hate into finding a solution. It seems like a waste of a great mind to not do that.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:55 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Your posts always have such pretty colors. Is it possible to provide a legend that denotes the meaning behind the colors?

Is it just a random selection?

BTW.....I get it, you hate everything about Trump.... I can agree with you that he's an arogant asshole..........big deal.
There's no shortage of arrogance and assholiness around here.

I would offer a suggestion that you channel the energy you used to hate into finding a solution. It seems like a waste of a great mind to not do that.


You still don’t get it. Nobody around here is potus. It’s not even about trump being an arrogant asshole. That wouldn’t matter at all, if he was providing consistent, effective leadership to the nation. He hasn’t been, and still isn’t, and if your blind loyalty to him means you can’t see that, then there is nothing that can be said. The nation will have to live with the consequences of his total incompetence.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 12:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It's a shame all these great minds looking backwards.

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
It’s not even about trump being an arrogant asshole. That wouldn’t matter at all, if he was providing consistent, effective leadership to the nation.


I disagree. It would matter. It does matter. It will never be ok. Not even a little.



Bill - you can count on me being that person. I disapprove of Donald Trump and what he stands for, what he is as a politician. What he is as a human being. I disapprove with every fiber of my being. He is a horror of a human being.

It requires nothing but to watch and listen to him to draw this conclusion. He is what he is. And he is that in a very big way.

I will never allow the normalization of this. Ever.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
I can agree with you that he's an arogant asshole..........big deal.


It is a big deal! The country elected an arrogant asshole (your words) as President. That doesn't bother you? How far does YOUR partisan hatred go? That you would give this a pass?

Unfuckingbelievable.

It will never be ok. Not with me.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Being an arrogant asshole is pretty much a prerequisite for wanting to be president..... some presidents get a pass because they're more eloquent about it.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Do you think trump is handling things competently ? Simple question, yes or no

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Being an arrogant asshole is pretty much a prerequisite for wanting to be president..... some presidents get a pass because they're more eloquent about it.


I disagree. And I disagree especially if you're attempting to draw some comparison between Trump and the other individuals who have been POTUS in the last 70-80 years.

Even if that were true - I would not accept that it's ok, that it's acceptable.

Why should we be ok with that? Shouldn't we raise our standards? Good grief, man.

You seem to be suggesting "get over it. they're all assholes".

No. They're not. That is simply not true.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 01:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here is a success story I'm not really seeing much about in the papers, and I know for a fact that it is 100% because of dedicated professionals in the Bureau of Consular Affairs, led by Assistant Secretary Carl Risch, a Trump appointee, who has thrown himself fully into working with and supporting his team. He has been embraced by the Bureau and he's done a great job of leading.

 Quote:
According to the Department of State, as of April 5 2020, 3:30 p.m. EDT, it has coordinated the repatriation of 43,116 Americans from 78 countries since January 29, 2020. The agency’s repatriation page including countries, the number of Americans repatriated and number of flights are available here. Based on its data, we have put together the top 10 countries by number of American citizens repatriated, and added the regional bureaus for each country.


More on the story here.

That's what effective leadership and professionalism looks like.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/06/20 05:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It's too bad we can't toss this back and forth without getting angry. I guess it is just a reflection of the times.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 05:46 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don’t understand the defensiveness.
I don’t care who the Potus is, or who my Prime Minister is. It doesn’t matter if I voted for them originally. If they are screwing up, and it is obvious they are, then I say so. I don’t feel obliged to defend them, just because I voted for them.
If anything, I would hold them to a higher standard. I would be even more critical.
This nonsense about if it was Obama, we wouldn’t be saying anything is utter crap.
Trump is NOT providing the leadership the US needs at this time. If that isn’t obvious to everybody, they seriously need to take a deep breath and look at it objectively.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/06/20 06:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Quote:
I would offer a suggestion that you channel the energy you used to hate into finding a solution. It seems like a waste of a great mind to not do that.


Some possible solutions have been presented and most of those following them seem to be doing okay. The solution to the Donny problem is getting rid of Donny. And the sooner the better for everyone, including Republicans.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 12:01 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Can people see how this might be a problem?

 Quote:
On Saturday, President Trump suggested research exists that shows people with lupus don’t get the coronavirus, implying that their use of hydroxychloroquine protects them. “There’s a rumor out there that because it takes care of lupus very effectively, as I understand it, and it’s a, you know, a drug that’s used for lupus,” he said, “so there’s a study out there that says people that have lupus haven’t been catching this virus. Maybe it’s true; maybe it’s not.”

There is no such study.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 12:31 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

That is disturbing for sure. Maybe a PhD in Economics is who we should be listening to, Peter Navarro or Larry Kudlow?

"One of those is a doctorate in economics (the other is a master’s in public policy), but Navarro has used it to suggest that he has broad expertise related to the coronavirus crisis. On Monday, he argued on air with CNN anchor John Berman, who asked him about the use of hydroxychloroquine as a treatment. Over the weekend, there had been reports that Navarro had clashed bitterly on the matter with Dr. Anthony Fauci, a top National Institutes of Health epidemiologist who is on the coronavirus task force.

Like the president, Navarro believes the drug should be administered aggressively. Fauci, a renowned veteran of the HIV/AIDS crisis, does not believe there is yet evidence that hydroxychloroquine — which is used to treat lupus and malaria — is helpful in battling COVID-19, the respiratory disease caused by the coronavirus.

Asked by Berman what allowed him to make medical pronouncements, Navarro referenced his educational pedigree. “I’m a social scientist,” he said. “I have a PhD,” asserting he was adept at reading medical studies.

Navarro is not the first economist to become involved in the coronavirus response. Before the pandemic arrived in earnest in the United States in early March, top White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow repeatedly claimed that the U.S. would not suffer from a serious outbreak. “We have contained this,” he said in late February, describing the Trump administration’s response as “pretty close to airtight.”

Kudlow has since walked those comments back, but the damage to his already shaky reputation was done. He has not been present at the White House coronavirus briefings.

My neighbor has a PhD in Dramaturgy, I'll ask her what drugs I should be taking.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 12:51 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

There seems to be some evidence that coronavirus is preying on non-white citizens in larger numbers.

It will be interesting to see what analysis shows are the reasons why.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 12:57 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It could be the level of health that exists in the areas where they live.

Arthur
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 01:06 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I heard that there’s a study saying that people who catch Corona develop some kind of radar to see in the dark! Also, they will be able to fly!

FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 05:36 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Your posts always have such pretty colors. Is it possible to provide a legend that denotes the meaning behind the colors?

Is it just a random selection?

BTW.....I get it, you hate everything about Trump.... I can agree with you that he's an arogant asshole..........big deal.
There's no shortage of arrogance and assholiness around here.

I would offer a suggestion that you channel the energy you used to hate into finding a solution. It seems like a waste of a great mind to not do that.


I already came up with one solution 'grits, for multiple factory production of ventilators, and I posted it in partial detail a while ago. It's what Trump should have done, and HE DIDN'T. He thought that just GM would be enough to make more ventilators.

I can't save the country from where I am in a dinky little backwater town in Southern NH, and I could never deal with the likes of Trump telling me I was WRONG about what type of actions need to be taken. I'm sure I wouldn't know all of them or the key players, but I'll bet you I could find them as well as the emergency playbooks to issue a response, faster that Donnie could get off his fat a$$ and actually DO SOMETHING for a change.

Right now, one of the biggest challenges would be trying to undo the catastrophic mess he's already made to date by his inactions, then yanking HIM out of the loop on a permanent basis. THE ONLY parts Trump needs to play in this pandemic daily update, is the greeting from the podium, and the introduction of the main players in their fields of expertise. Then, PERHAPS, a short nightly ON SCRIPT UPDATE to tell the nation where we stand today.

Trump is ONLY standing at the podium for political exposure, and to confuse and undermine to efforts of his experts that have REPEATEDLY STATED FACTS that are nearly 180° in opposition to his off-script BS.

Many major stations have now started cutting him off at the knees when he picks up the ball and starts running with it (after the play has been blown dead), and will continue to do so due prevent inaccurate information from drifting out into the public as much as possible.

As it stands right now, we're still being too soft on our handling of this pandemic in this country, that's why we're have such skyrocketing numbers above the other countries. And just wait until they start getting some REAL TEST NUMBERS coming in during the next couple of weeks.

You ain't seen nothing yet, because someone that doesn't know jack-sh*t was left in charge of something he really cares nothing about... OTHER PEOPLES LIVES.

The proof of THAT was when he said things like...."I take no responsibility for that." and, "I never said that." "I never said that!!" But yet, he DID say BOTH of those things, yet he denied it.

"Lead, Charlie Brown, lead!"

Actually, I think I'd RATHER HAVE Charlie Brown...at least HE never had any pathological lying issues, to my knowledge.

. . Falcon


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 01:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Not an opinion piece:

Politics Through the Looking Glass: Virus Scrambles the Left-Right Lines


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 01:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: FalconEddy
THE ONLY parts Trump needs to play in this pandemic daily update, is the greeting from the podium, and the introduction of the main players in their fields of expertise. Then, PERHAPS, a short nightly ON SCRIPT UPDATE to tell the nation where we stand today.


Totally agree with you on this. He should close his Twitter account also.

 Originally Posted By: FalconEddy

As it stands right now, we're still being too soft on our handling of this pandemic in this country, that's why we're have such skyrocketing numbers above the other countries. And just wait until they start getting some REAL TEST NUMBERS coming in during the next couple of weeks.


I can agree with you as far as the response being too soft...but I think a the measures need a strict ending date to keep it from becoming a permanent power grab by the federal government......or State and local governments for that matter.
As far as the numbers go, I really want to disagree with you, but I'm afraid you're probably going to be close....I do think that the raw numbers here in the US will be higher because a higher percentage of people will be getting tested and we are a large nation. These will be the numbers that get trumpeted by certain members of the press even though the per capita numbers give us a better view of what's going on.

I'm always interested in your solutions, solutions are uncommon.
Criticism and hate are too common and I don't see you as a common guy.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 01:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster


I'd look at this, but I don't want to sign up for anything.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 01:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

NYT: Politics Through the Looking Glass: Virus Scrambles the Left-Right Lines


The 2020 edition of the Conservative Political Action Conference in Oxon Hill, Md., in February offered a theme-park version of what was to be President Trump’s re-election message: Under the banner of “America vs. Socialism,” the convention featured anti-Marx branded popcorn, an RV emblazed with the words “Socialism Takes Capitalism Creates” and a children’s book promoting personal freedom and private-property rights.

Speeches included tirades against big government and “Medicare for all.”

“The virus is not going to sink the American economy,” the president’s chief economic adviser, Larry Kudlow, told a packed auditorium. “What is or could sink the American economy is the socialism coming from our friends on the other side of the aisle.” Mr. Trump, the keynote speaker, proclaimed, “We are defeating the radical, socialist Democrats” who “want total control.”

Four weeks later, with the coronavirus sinking the American economy, the federal government was preparing to cut $1,200 checks to tens of millions of citizens, part of a $2 trillion economic stabilization package that was also providing businesses with no-interest loans — likely to be partly forgiven — to pay their employees while they are shuttered. The Trump administration was issuing guidance for Americans to stay inside their homes while weighing a New Deal-style infrastructure program to create jobs.

And the CPAC message seemed a relic from a distant time.

Such is life for the political warriors of the Covid-19 campaign, where, in this pre-peak stage of the crisis, the national political debate is inside out and upside down, sending both sides of the national divide scurrying to figure out where the new political and ideological lines will settle come the fall.

As Republicans prepare for a re-election battle almost certain to hinge on perceptions of the Trump administration’s readiness and efficiency in performing its most solemn duty — to protect American lives — the decades-old debate over government’s role in American life has entered an unfamiliar phase of discombobulation. A president who leads a movement that was galvanized by Ronald Reagan’s motto that the four most terrifying words from the government were “I’m here to help” is now responsible for the largest federal disaster response since the Great Depression.

“The era of limited-government, country-club Republicanism is over,” said Stephen K. Bannon, an ideological architect of Mr. Trump’s 2016 victory.

At the same time, lingering conservative distrust of government and “experts,” combined with a red-and-blue fissure over the severity of the crisis, have surfaced dystopian national divisions: between those taking social-distancing measures seriously and those who view them as resulting from government overreach, between those who would support a prolonged economic shutdown and those who would be willing to trade additional casualties for a faster return to normalcy. “That,” said Matt Schlapp, chairman of the American Conservative Union, “is one of the questions our politics will solve in November.”

In the middle of it all is the president, whose operatic inconsistency about his administration’s role was apparent on Saturday when he predicted “a lot of death” but raised the possibility of relaxed social-distancing guidelines for Easter services.

It is so early in the crisis that both sides are navigating public opinion day to day, uncertain whether the fault lines have been truly scrambled or will re-emerge only hardened once the crisis abates, whenever that is.

“We don’t know what it’s going to look like on the other side of this in terms of people’s attitudes — whether it’s going to have short-term effects or long-term effects,” said Anita Dunn, a senior adviser to former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., the likely Democratic presidential nominee.

The sudden, unprecedented nature of the election cycle has made it impossible to strategize too far ahead: The party conventions, where nominees make their strongest cases, are in doubt; traditional retail politicking, necessary for exciting base voters and winning over converts, is impossible, and voting is facing a potential shift toward more mail-only balloting than ever before in a presidential election.

With the death count mounting last week, the two sides were sparring over whether Mr. Trump’s early declarations that the virus was contained had cost lives.

“He has some great vulnerabilities no matter how many proposals he puts out, and the single greatest one of them is the month of February,” Ms. Dunn said. “The number of people who are sick is significantly greater than it needed to be because this administration didn’t act when it could have — and that is not an issue that is going to go away.”

For their part, Trump campaign aides were trying to go on offense, painting Mr. Biden and the Democrats as working to undermine Mr. Trump as he seeks to lead the country through the crisis as a “wartime president.”

“In January, while the Democrats were entirely focused on impeachment, President Trump took the critical step of restricting travel from China in response to the coronavirus,” the campaign said in a statement. It criticized Mr. Biden for calling Mr. Trump’s response “xenophobic” and pointed to polls showing approval of Mr. Trump’s handling of the pandemic. (An ABC News/Ipsos poll on Friday showed his support dipping from an earlier uptick.)

Beyond the back and forth is the question that has rested at the heart of American politics since the New Deal: What is the federal government’s appropriate place in managing public welfare and private behavior?

Democrats view the crisis as vindicating their long-held belief in “the importance of government and the functions that only a government can do,” as Ms. Dunn put it.

Conservatives ascended over the last decade with the anti-government, institutions-skeptical sentiment of the Tea Party, which was itself partly fueled by anger over the bank bailouts and the stimulus measures that followed the 2008 financial crisis.

Mr. Trump took the White House embracing the movement’s resentment of elites and “experts,” and his administration moved quickly to cut back agencies — including a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention program built to detect and manage potential viral outbreaks — as it vowed to end the Affordable Care Act.

“Now we’re in a crisis where big government is the only thing that can save us, and elites — a combination of these two things that Republicans say they hate,” said Stuart Stevens, a Republican strategist for the George W. Bush and Mitt Romney campaigns who has soured on his party in the Trump era.

So far, Mr. Trump, politically limber to begin with, has sought to have his $2 trillion federal response and eat it, too.

He has shared billing on the front of the mailing for “The President’s Coronavirus Guidelines for America” with the Centers for Disease Control, an agency some of his supporters view as part of the so-called deep state. And he approved the C.D.C. recommendation that all Americans wear masks.

Yet he said he would not wear a mask himself. He has praised the government’s lead infectious-disease official, Dr. Anthony Fauci, but dismissed Dr. Fauci’s call for a national stay-at-home order, as some Republican governors resist going along with the C.D.C. guidance.

In a sign of the ideological fogginess of the moment, the Trump campaign on Friday argued in an email that Mr. Biden’s plan to add a government-run option to the Affordable Care Act “would end Obamacare as we know it,” as Mr. Trump continues to back a lawsuit seeking to do just that.

Guy Cecil, chairman of the major Democratic super PAC Priorities USA, said the administration’s anti-Obamacare position would prove politically punishing as the pandemic wore on.

“The fact that the administration is still seeking to overturn the Affordable Care Act at a time when more people are being thrown off their health care is only going to become more important,” he said.

It was only a few weeks ago that centrist Democrats were openly fretting that Senator Bernie Sanders’s Medicare for all plan and Andrew Yang’s call for a universal basic income would hurt the entire party with swing voters by feeding the Republicans’ “socialism” theme.

Now, with the swift bipartisan passage of the $2 trillion stimulus, perhaps only the first of its kind, those fears are subsiding.

“It makes it harder to label your opponent a socialist,” said Howard Wolfson, a top strategist for former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York, who ended his presidential bid last month.

The moment is not without irony for Mr. Sanders, whose chances to win the nomination have faded as his signature proposals have appeared to gain greater acceptance. A Morning Consult/Politico poll released last week found that Medicare for all had support from 55 percent of registered voters, up nine percentage points from mid-February.

“I’d love to see you tell me that you can’t campaign on free treatment now,” said Mr. Sanders’s campaign manager, Faiz Shakir. “Because all of our fates depend on everyone being tested and treated.”

With a “Yangwasright” hashtag trending on Twitter, a Marquette University Law School poll of Wisconsin voters found nearly 80 percent generally approved of the government’s direct payments to individuals.

Mr. Bannon, who left the Trump administration in 2017, saw evidence of a national coming together for measures, like a $15 federal minimum wage, to help “the heroes of this catastrophe” — whom he identified as “the truck drivers, the kids at the Amazon plants, police, doctors and nurses.”

He predicted a pandemic-born political realignment in step with his own brand of “economic nationalism,” in which shared resentment over income inequality, corporate greed and global trade policies that gave China so much economic influence in the United States would create a new political coalition drawn from Sanders supporters, working-class Democrats and Republicans.

“What we want is a better deal for the little guy — trade barrier protections, high wages and also entrepreneurialism, not corporate capitalism,” he said.

Republicans close to the White House argued that the party’s primary tenets were unshakable, even in this crisis.

For instance, where Mr. Trump has been hesitant in using the Defense Production Act to compel American factories to produce medical supplies, “Joe Biden and Democrats call for compulsion, which is markedly different,” said Tim Murtaugh, the Trump campaign communications director.

Mr. Trump has likened government mandates for manufacturers to nationalization of industry, a line his supporters presumably would not want him to cross. Parts of his political base are chafing at government moves to control social interactions and shutter businesses to fight the virus.

With that in mind, Mr. Schlapp, the chairman of the American Conservative Union, which runs CPAC, described the huge aid package as restitution, not socialism.

“The conservative principle is when government takes your property and economic rights, they are obligated to come up with a financial settlement,” said Mr. Schlapp, whose wife, Mercedes Schlapp, is a Trump campaign adviser.

Conservatives, he said, are less deferential to government than their liberal counterparts and are not likely to put up with it for long, presaging a potentially intense election-year conflict between left and right over when to end social distancing measures.

“Eventually, we have to ask ourselves, what’s the appropriate level of risk to open it back up,” Mr. Schlapp said. “It will be a showdown, and I think that will tell us a lot about our country.”


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 02:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Thanks Dave. An article of observations rather than conclusions...uncharacteristic of the Times.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 02:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Now that the Republicans have gone full blown Socialism they just need to create a new word for Socialism like they did for torture.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 03:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Smellyism

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/07/20 03:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

haha..you prick

guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/07/20 11:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

US is still at a 3% death rate as of today. Italy was at 9% on March 23rd. So the "delay in onset" theory between us and Italy doesn't hold water.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 12:46 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Good news doesn't seem like the right words given this situation but it is positive.
Let's hope it remains at this low point.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:07 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
US is still at a 3% death rate as of today. Italy was at 9% on March 23rd. So the "delay in onset" theory between us and Italy doesn't hold water.


louisiana's death rate is way higher than that.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 03:22 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
US is still at a 3% death rate as of today. Italy was at 9% on March 23rd. So the "delay in onset" theory between us and Italy doesn't hold water.

Where do you get your 9% death rate in Italy from ?
And what did the 9% represent ?


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 12:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here's a good summary of current information about cases and deaths.

Also, there is a lot of controversy about deaths being underreported, and of course about cases not being recorded because there aren't widely available tests. So while it's positive that the death rate is lower, it is climbing, and we don't actually know what the rate is.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 12:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Also, let's hope that it doesn't stay at 3%. If half of all Americans are infected, and 3% of them die because of COVID-19, that's over five million people.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Here's a good summary of current information about cases and deaths.

Also, there is a lot of controversy about deaths being underreported, and of course about cases not being recorded because there aren't widely available tests. So while it's positive that the death rate is lower, it is climbing, and we don't actually know what the rate is.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths



Sorry, we can’t seem to find the page you’re looking for.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don't understand how to calculate "death rate" or percentage.

It's not the math I'm talking about. I got that.

I'm talking about the data considerations....

If you have a certain number of cases at a given point in time - and a certain number of deaths at that same time.... the first number (total cases at that point in time) represent cases that (a portion of which) don't have an outcome. As this number skyrockets during the peak period of infection.... the calculation of the death rate is impossible with just that information. There is no way to accurately predict with just that data, it seems to me.

Or am I wrong about that?


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Don't over complicate things.



Webster
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here is some info:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 01:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Here's a good summary of current information about cases and deaths.

Also, there is a lot of controversy about deaths being underreported, and of course about cases not being recorded because there aren't widely available tests. So while it's positive that the death rate is lower, it is climbing, and we don't actually know what the rate is.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/



Sorry, we can’t seem to find the page you’re looking for.


Fixed it.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 02:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I took the 3% as a percentage of deaths of the totaled infected. Like everything this situation will have new calculus theorems created to get the desired outcomes. People have their own facts, people will have their own math.
Math might not even be required. The 100,000 to 200,000 deaths don't happen the a case will be made it was a hoax and left and media are responsible. If the death does hit the predicted figures then the management of the virus was outstanding and the best in the world stopping the deaths from being greater.
It is the investment thing, nobody likes to feel they have been conned so they they will continue to ignore the obvious with their own facts and math if needed.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 06:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Also, you know: it's not strictly about death rate. Don't forget that the major problem is overwhelming health care resources. Even if people don't die of COVID-19, they may be hospitalized for extended time - and using resources other people may need and not be able to get.

If you have heart attack and need help, you may arrive at a hospital full of infected people with no ability to help you. Like Italy, doctors may wind up having to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't. They will obviously do the best they can - but this is the really big danger, that's why we're trying large scale isolating. It's so that health care resources don't get overwhelmed, not so fewer people die of COVID-19.


pbrowne
(Planeteer)
04/08/20 06:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

% of deaths = deaths / total infected

we do not know total infected number because testing has been limited.

we also aren't sure if all COVID19 deaths have been accurately reported.

what we can provide is deaths / # of reported positive tests

not sure that really helps in assigning usable #s for projections of future death rates but it's all that we have because the folks who have been tested are the ones who are exhibiting symptoms or are rich.

i suspect there are at least as many people who are infected but asymptomatic as there are those who have tested positive.

i think there are a lot of people who are directing the effort against the virus who do not understand the scientific process and fail to see the importance of quantifying these statistics
to be used as a tool to plan ahead.



Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 06:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Also, you know: it's not strictly about death rate. Don't forget that the major problem is overwhelming health care resources. Even if people don't die of COVID-19, they may be hospitalized for extended time - and using resources other people may need and not be able to get.

If you have heart attack and need help, you may arrive at a hospital full of infected people with no ability to help you. Like Italy, doctors may wind up having to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't. They will obviously do the best they can - but this is the really big danger, that's why we're trying large scale isolating. It's so that health care resources don't get overwhelmed, not so fewer people die of COVID-19.


Good point and to stop Hospitals from going out of business tax payers money is being funneled to the hospitals, here in Masshole anyway. There's that pesky socialism thing again.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 06:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
% of deaths = deaths / total infected

we do not know total infected number because testing has been limited.

we also aren't sure if all COVID19 deaths have been accurately reported.

what we can provide is deaths / # of reported positive tests

not sure that really helps in assigning usable #s for projections of future death rates but it's all that we have because the folks who have been tested are the ones who are exhibiting symptoms or are rich.

i suspect there are at least as many people who are infected but asymptomatic as there are those who have tested positive.

i think there are a lot of people who are directing the effort against the virus who do not understand the scientific process and fail to see the importance of quantifying these statistics
to be used as a tool to plan ahead.



New WHO data based on S Korea suggests testing IS the solution, not necessarily large scale isolating, for health and economy.
Probably too late here though since we are already into the isolating path.
Gov Baker will be speaking at 3:30, I am curious to see if there is a new aggressive focus on testing, he has been really on top of this since states are on their own in the "war".
He's a good Republican....remember them?


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/08/20 07:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

A graphic illustrating (and an article discussing) the spread into rural America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html


Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 01:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It’s so frustrating – some people in the Mexican government have been patting themselves on the back because the number of cases is still relatively low. But it’s just been revealed that they only test 10% of people with mild symptoms, literally. Most people with mild symptoms wouldn’t go to the doctor in the first place, so they’re only testing 10% of a small fraction of patients. Anyway, There are now seven confirmed cases in San Miguel, up from two a couple of days ago.

Infinitymobile
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 02:55 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
A graphic illustrating (and an article discussing) the spread into rural America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html
Is there any way for you to post this story here other than link? I would love to read it and see the map but I don't subscribe to the NY Times. If not no worries but thought I would ask?


Mike Musgrove
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:05 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
% of deaths = deaths / total infected



I cannot over-emphasize that this is not the case. Especially when cases are growing exponentially.

The easiest way to explain this is there have been 24000 recoveries in the US so far out of 430000 cases. Does this mean the recovery rate is only 5.5%? That 94.5% of the cases will die? Obviously not.

For the exactly the same reason, you can't say that 15000 deaths out of 430000 cases is a death rate of 3.5% and that 96.5% will recover.

That is just not how the math works.


pbrowne
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i said total infected not total cases - unless everyone is tested we will not know total infected.

WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Infinitymobile
 Originally Posted By: flatcat
A graphic illustrating (and an article discussing) the spread into rural America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html
Is there any way for you to post this story here other than link? I would love to read it and see the map but I don't subscribe to the NY Times. If not no worries but thought I would ask?


NYT and WaPo are not restricting articles on the pandemic. You should be able to access it. Did you click the link?


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The spread of COVID-19 is based on two factors:

1. How dense the population is
2. How dense the population is



Mike Musgrove
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
i said total infected not total cases - unless everyone is tested we will not know total infected.


That is true. Also, we won't know the actual death rate until all the cases are resolved. Right now, due to exponential growth, 90% of the reported cases are "unresolved". You can't include them in the divisor.

Right now, in the US, 39K cases have "resolved". Either died or recovered. 15K of those died. That's 38%.

That is the probable maximum death rate.

15K deaths out of 430K reported cases is 3.5%. That is the minimum probable death rate.

The actual death rate falls between those 2 numbers.

Of course, garbage in - garbage out. Since we are not testing nearly enough there is a huge wobble in the data.

The point is that simply taking the number of deaths so far and dividing it by the latest number of reported cases (which is what most seem to be doing) is extremely misleading.

A better approximation would be the total deaths divided by the total cases about 2 weeks ago... its the pipeline effect.

Feel free to chime in Falcon =)


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 03:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Mike Musgrove
 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
% of deaths = deaths / total infected



I cannot over-emphasize that this is not the case. Especially when cases are growing exponentially.

The easiest way to explain this is there have been 24000 recoveries in the US so far out of 430000 cases. Does this mean the recovery rate is only 5.5%? That 94.5% of the cases will die? Obviously not.

For the exactly the same reason, you can't say that 15000 deaths out of 430000 cases is a death rate of 3.5% and that 96.5% will recover.

That is just not how the math works.



You ain't seen nuttin' yet. When the dust settles on the corpses you are going to see new math and "facts" like never before.
Give me deaths per million or some form of truth.


Infinitymobile
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 05:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Wish
 Originally Posted By: Infinitymobile
 Originally Posted By: flatcat
A graphic illustrating (and an article discussing) the spread into rural America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html
Is there any way for you to post this story here other than link? I would love to read it and see the map but I don't subscribe to the NY Times. If not no worries but thought I would ask?


NYT and WaPo are not restricting articles on the pandemic. You should be able to access it. Did you click the link?
I did....they want me to enter my email address.


pbrowne
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 05:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

total cases is not a good number to use unless you factor in % of the populace tested.

even then, w/o everyone being tested the numbers will be almost worthless in helping determine the actual death rate.


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 06:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Infinitymobile
 Originally Posted By: Wish
 Originally Posted By: Infinitymobile
 Originally Posted By: flatcat
A graphic illustrating (and an article discussing) the spread into rural America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html
Is there any way for you to post this story here other than link? I would love to read it and see the map but I don't subscribe to the NY Times. If not no worries but thought I would ask?


NYT and WaPo are not restricting articles on the pandemic. You should be able to access it. Did you click the link?
I did....they want me to enter my email address.


That’s weird. It shows the article for me, with no prompt for email or anything.

I don't know.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 06:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

For any meaningful analysis at a point in time you need to know the total number of people tested, the number of people infected and the number of deaths. If you test 1,000 people and 10 are infected and two die, that’s very different than 100 tested and 10 infected and two die. Without widespread testing, you cannot estimate a meaningful fatality rate that is applicable to the population at large.
With a sufficient number of tests, you can extrapolate the results to the overall population with a 95% Confidence level.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 06:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
I don't understand how to calculate "death rate" or percentage.

It's not the math I'm talking about. I got that.

I'm talking about the data considerations....

If you have a certain number of cases at a given point in time - and a certain number of deaths at that same time.... the first number (total cases at that point in time) represent cases that (a portion of which) don't have an outcome. As this number skyrockets during the peak period of infection.... the calculation of the death rate is impossible with just that information. There is no way to accurately predict with just that data, it seems to me.

Or am I wrong about that?



 Originally Posted By: Mike Musgrove

The point is that simply taking the number of deaths so far and dividing it by the latest number of reported cases (which is what most seem to be doing) is extremely misleading.



Ok, so... I'm trying to wrap my head around this given my limited understanding.

If we had the hypothetical currently-non-existent "total cases after having been tested" - in other words the *actual* number of cases out there of people who are currently infected - that number is likely far bigger than the current "known case count". Correct?

That number also includes a huge amount of "unknown outcome" cases. So.... still... whether you have the current case count divided by the number of deaths (or recoveries) - or the "unknown total case count because everyone infected hasn't been tested" divided by the number of deaths - either one of those has a huge amount of unknown outcomes.... making any current "rate of death" an inaccurate number. The infection rate is skyrocketing - whether known, tested, or otherwise.

It would take more data and a serious statistician - I assume - to put together a more accurate number (or percentage).


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 06:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

In the current divided world statistical data provided will be subjected to desired outcomes. Wouldn't deaths per population be the statistic that could be the least manipulated? This is after the dust settles.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 06:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The unknown outcomes is just a delay factor that you can allow for. Typically it’s a couple of weeks max for a known case to be a resolved case, either cured or died.
All cases will become resolved cases within two weeks.
With a large enough number of total tests, the relationship between deaths and infections will become more and more meaningful and applicable to the population at large.
Eg, if I have tested half the entire population, across the whole country, rural and urban, and have an infection rate of - say 60% and a death rate of 2%, I would feel pretty confident applying those percentages to the country as a whole.
If I have tested 1% of the country, then any death percentages don’t tell us very much.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 07:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I am not in disagreement with what you've said there. That makes sense to me.

However, it does seem to me that the basic calculation that we're talking about is more skewed and inaccurate during the period that the infection rate is high and infections are rapidly multiplying.... than say after things start to level off a little. Then the calculation strikes me as quite a bit more reliable.


ulank
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 07:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The key to the math is you gotta get the numerator right and you also gotta get the denominator right. \:\)

#profound



Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 07:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Correct. What the current stats just indicate is the rate of spread. It can indicate when the daily infection rate is slowing down. That’s important to know too, but doesn’t in itself help with knowing the fatality rate

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 07:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

As of yesterday, the US has carried out 2 million tests. That’s not 2 million people. It is very common to test the same individual more than once. Even assuming they were all unique individuals, that’s only .6% of the population, which is pretty meaningless.
Of the 2 million tests, 420k tested positive, which is 21%, and there were 14,500 deaths, which is a 3.4% fatality rate based on the number of infections.
If you could extrapolate that to the entire country, that would mean 330 million x 21% x 3.4% fatalities = 2.3 million deaths.
We had better hope that when we test more than .6% of the population we get better results


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 08:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Potential good news may be that the US has been testing people that are symptomatic, or in high risk jobs. That could cause the ratio of infections to tests to be abnormally high, which would be good news
That is why testing on a large scale is essential to understand what we are really facing.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 08:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
As of yesterday, the US has carried out 2 million tests. That’s not 2 million people. It is very common to test the same individual more than once. Even assuming they were all unique individuals, that’s only .6% of the population, which is pretty meaningless.
Of the 2 million tests, 420k tested positive, which is 21%, and there were 14,500 deaths, which is a 3.4% fatality rate based on the number of infections.
If you could extrapolate that to the entire country, that would mean 330 million x 21% x 3.4% fatalities = 2.3 million deaths.
We had better hope that when we test more than .6% of the population we get better results


Sadly that math makes perfect sense to me and is troubling for sure.


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 08:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

House of Saud. Covid don't care who you are.

Memphis Monroe
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 09:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
As of yesterday, the US has carried out 2 million tests. That’s not 2 million people. It is very common to test the same individual more than once. Even assuming they were all unique individuals, that’s only .6% of the population, which is pretty meaningless.
Of the 2 million tests, 420k tested positive, which is 21%, and there were 14,500 deaths, which is a 3.4% fatality rate based on the number of infections.
If you could extrapolate that to the entire country, that would mean 330 million x 21% x 3.4% fatalities = 2.3 million deaths.
We had better hope that when we test more than .6% of the population we get better results


Yep, and it's indicative of what I've though all along, which is we have not had a large enough sampling of the population tested to conduct a statistically meaningful analysis. As I stated in another thread, the numbers are all over the place, depending on which source you read and how the data is presented. From what I can glean the mortality rate is approximately 3.6%, but that's based on limited information/data. The general consensus puts it between 2 and 4%, but that's significant variance. When we're talking about human lives margins of error become far more significant.

We won't get better results as we go along and increase our disbursement of testing. Anyway, that's my prediction.There does seem to be a general consistency of mortality rates throughout the tracked and reported sample groups or populations, no matter the country or region of the states.


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/09/20 09:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Gretsch 6120
We won't get better results as we go along and increase our dismemberment of testing.


I think I will pass on the dismemberment if that’s okay.



Memphis Monroe
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/09/20 09:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Wish
 Originally Posted By: Gretsch 6120
We won't get better results as we go along and increase our dismemberment of testing.


I think I will pass on the dismemberment if that’s okay.

haha, sorry about that buddy... Damn autocorrect


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 02:58 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

So, Pense says the US is testing 100,000 a day. To test 50% of the US population at that rate would take 4.5 years.
Trump is saying he wants the US economy to reopen in early May. He says mass testing isn’t needed. A more truthful statement would be that it isn’t possible in that timeframe, and he doesn’t want to wait.
He is going to take a gamble that the mortality rate is much lower than the current results, based on the supposition that a lot more people have already been infected than currently thought, without showing serious symptoms.
There is a possibility he is right, but without large scale random testing, there is no way to be sure.
Hence the gamble. If he is right, and the economy picks up with no major surge in deaths, then he feels his re-election chances are better. If he is wrong, then a bunch of people will die, and his re-election chances are screwed.
Given that his re-election chances right now are not good, he figures he has nothing to lose by gambolling. Apart from a bunch of lives, of course, but that’s not a big deal to him.
If the goal is to get re-elected at all costs, it’s the smart bet.

Does anyone here believe that he would not take that gamble ?



Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 03:04 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I never felt like dice before but I do now. It shows my value, nothing, just an object for the gambler. Like claiming everything is a hoax, eventually your luck will run out and a hoax is reality. Now being the dice I'm not getting a good feeling being tossed by a gambler on a losing streak.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 03:09 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
I never felt like dice before but I do now. It shows my value, nothing.


It took you sixty plus years to figure that out?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 03:23 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I never said I wasn't dim.

pbrowne
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 03:52 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

being of little value is an asset - no one wants anything from you.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 04:03 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

and social distancing is easy

Slabraton
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 05:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
House of Saud. Covid don't care who you are.


It's revealing that your main concern is that the right people suffer. Personally, I was much happier to read this part:

"The infections are supposedly a key element in the Saudi decision to announce a ceasefire in Yemen."


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 07:18 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Ok folks, I've been reading entries here for the past 2-1/2 days, as well as keeping my eyes focused on the numbers being reported on the nightly newscasts.

The daily televised White House briefings are like watching new material of The Three Stooges, with only ONE STOOGE, Donnie Shemp... and he's not funny at all, just stupid, like the original.

Here's the 411 on current approximate ratios of total population, widespread testing, infection rate, death rate, plateau time line, chances of multiple wave peaking, etc.

Due to various mitigating circumstances, there is absolutely no 100% accurate method to determine the specific infection rate for the approximately 325,000,000 citizens who reside in this country; including Alaska & Hawaii.

DO NOT BE DISILLUSIONED BY DONALD J. TRUMP'S RHETORIC . He would have you believe that everything is going FINE & DANDY with the testing, and the numbers are coming down nicely.

Yeah, THAT's because we're not testing people quickly enough, or in vast enough quantities daily, We should be testing people at the rate of at least FOUR TIMES AS MANY PER DAY AS WE ARE AT THIS POINT IN TIME, AND ACCELERATING THOSE TEST QUANTITY NUMBERS AS TIME PROGRESSES.

HOWEVER...here's the thing. If Mr. Mallet Head opens up the country for 'business as usual', and people all go back to work WAY TOO SOON...SUMMER CAMP'S OPEN, DOMESTIC TRAVEL, ETC., AND SO FORTH... Now we are TRULY PHUCKED .

People that have been home and either immune or asymptomatic will spread this contagion around the entire country where ever they go, IF THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TESTED .

Donnie forgets that he really doesn't have a clue as to what the hell he's actually doing. He just keeps pulling stuff outta his a$$ because THAT's all he knows what to do. Reach down, yank...PRESTO!..."HAY!!! UH NUH-THER PHUCK UP!...JUSS FER U LITTLE PEZZ-ANTS."

If this DOES happen, it will most likely unleash an UNPRESCEDENTED LEVEL OF EXPONENTIAL GROWTH AS WELL AS NEW FACTOR OF LOGARITHMIC GROWTH RATE .

There are TWO very distinct, yet unclear, variables here affecting the possible 'bottom-line' statistics. Yes, I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but they're being DRIVEN by a MORON, so it makes sense from a twisted perspective of abstract mathematical modeling.

The FIRST is Donald J. Trump screwing around in a random fashion with deciding WHAT to do and WHEN to do it. THIS directly affects the EXPONENTIAL GROWTH, AND THE LOGARITHMIC GROWTH RATE. PLUS (2ND), IT ENDS UP INCREASING, OR DECREASING, THE R0 FACTOR, AS WELL .

These two changes could drastically change the number of the infected, as well as the number of deaths. Plus, if a 'lock-down' (even a 'soft' lock-down), it would have a devastating effect WHEN, NOT 'IF', that second wave manifests.

This is the problem when a non-science background person issues orders on a 'happy-go-lucky' basis with absolutely no regard for expert sage advise, wisdom & testimony from their counsel personnel who are there to give them the information and critical key advice they require to make an intelligent & prudent decision in the time of a crisis of this magnitude.

Instead, we see him on the golf course in a photo, with a caption of him saying... "Getting a little exercise this morning!" I always thought this was ODD AS HELL, since Donnie believes (and this is 100% true), that the human body is like a battery, and it actually ONLY HAS A FINITE AMOUNT OF ENERGY IN IT, WHICH EXERCISING DEPLETES .

Ummmmm, yeah....uuhhhh, Donnie, exercise actually GIVES YOU ENERGY... ESPECIALLY IN THE MORNING ....Just Sayin'.

This guy REALLY needs a padded cell, ok?

Oh,. yeah... my estimates BEFORE Trump started about opening everything up in mid-May for business-as-usual was 30,000,000 infected by Dec 31,2020 & 249,600 dead, same time frame.

BUT, I don't believe they can test THAT fast; unfortunately, they can most certainly die that fast.

. . Falcon


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 01:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/opinion/coronavirus-us-economy-inequality.html

A really interesting article which talks about where we were before this all started, why GDP doesn't paint an accurate picture, why most Americans think that regardless of party we are headed in the wrong direction, and why some people will emerge from the COVID-19 crisis in better shape than many others.

It is an opinion piece, but I note that it doesn't present solutions - only data and some context. It does squarely point out a bunch of issues though, which some people here might not agree with, I guess. Saying that, the numbers don't really lie.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 03:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We love our myths from an imaginary God to if you work really hard you get ahead. There is no God today, there was no Sun God for Egyptians and work as hard as you want, a best you'll just remain in place. Most wealth is inherited, the class you are born is the class you will die in. The system is rigged and you have no input. As long as myths exist the rigged system will exist.
If the USA were a person, it would be a semi functional psychopath.
God Bless


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 04:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Some good info posted in here, but mostly really great, tremendous entertainment. The best entertainment in the world. Other web forums admire our entertainment.

\:D


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 04:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"It's revealing that your main concern is that the right people suffer."

You should be concerned asshole, it's killing off Black people like there's no tomorrow. The same Black people you are putting on a pedestal for salvaging Joe Biden. Better hope there are still some left come November, your rapist candidate will need all the Black people he can muster, including the ones his crime bill jailed. Now you should keep your digs at me the political forum. Stupid Cocksucker.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 06:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
Some good info posted in here, but mostly really great, tremendous entertainment. The best entertainment in the world. Other web forums admire our entertainment.

\:D


I resort to that as well knowing people won't let go of myths. The band kept on playing on the Titanic and as the ship was going down future corpses were arguing over the right bucket for bailing water.


Popmann
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 06:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We have the BEST entertainment. it's tremendous, really.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 06:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Best? Better than best, Extraordinary.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 06:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Speaking of Entertainment this is how the 1% can buy an undeserving slot at a college. They deserve that slot over others, their money dictates so. And it has Bible backup.

"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.”

Stage Entertainment


guitartb
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 07:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yep. But I don't think that bible verse is referring to possessions and material things. I think they meant faith and spiritual abundance.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 08:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: guitartb
Yep. But I don't think that bible verse is referring to possessions and material things. I think they meant faith and spiritual abundance.


Its the Good Book because it says whatever you want. The verse has been used to describe everything, it is the Matthew Effect.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/10/20 10:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here's some entertainment for you.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 10:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Entertaining from sure and Entertainer Reagan was out to rid us of the evil Welfare Queens only to be replaced with Welfare Kings. Got to love wealth distribution.

"But for the very wealthy, the story is completely different. Their after-tax incomes have risen much faster than G.D.P. — up 420 percent since 1980."

It is entertaining when your government reaches into your pocket, takes your money and gives it to Kings.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/10/20 11:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The Roulette Wheel is spinning, the dice will be thrown. Open up because business wants to and do the "herd" experiment, or
play it safe. Thank God we have an Entertainer making the toss. An Entertainer with a history of a picking great minds.
I hope Kanye West and Stormy Daniels have some input.

“I don’t know if I’ve had a bigger decision than that, if you think, right? I mean, think of that decision, somebody said, ‘It’s totally up to the president,’ and it is. I don’t know if I’ve had a bigger decision,” Trump said. “But I’m going to surround myself with the greatest minds. Not only the greatest minds in numerous different businesses, including the business of politics and reason and we’re going to make a decision and hopefully it’s going to be the right decision. I will say this, we want to get it open as soon as we can.”


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 01:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Missouri has had 2,722 cases of Covid 19.

83.8721683% of them recuperated at home.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 01:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

As of yesterday, Missouri has 3,800 cases, with a 2.6 fatality rate. Only 0.7% of the population has been tested.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 01:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

According to Dave, I should buy a coffin......or be like Tom Mix and build my own.

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 01:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

How would I know if this is accurate? I wouldn't. But....

According to these statistics - 95% of total reported cases in the state of Missouri are still currently "active".


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
Only 0.7% of the population has been tested.


all comes down to testing.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
According to Dave, I should buy a coffin......or be like Tom Mix and build my own.

Not at all. I’m just a fan of using real data to make decisions. We are getting enough smoke and happy talk BS from the Potus.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:27 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It's a hoax the dead are actors fake news and we need tax cut.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
It's a hoax the dead are actors fake news and we need tax cut.
Well, "we" ... a cut if you make more than $250k. Gotta keep all that yummy goodness trickling down from above.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Since by his own reckoning, Dave has the most accurate numbers....exactly how many people in Missouri have been tested?

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I’m using this as my data source until there is a nationally published federal source
https://covidtracking.com/data


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 02:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Thanks.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 03:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This is the official CDC numbers
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 03:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

So if the infection and fatality rate hold for the entire population of Missouri, we could lose 14,041.456 people to the virus.

Do you think the .456 person will get a discount at the funeral home?


Also, which set of numbers are correct?

Fractional people need to know these things.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 04:27 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

we can live without phuckin hockey, basketball, the NFL and baseball and church services.
think about that for a moment...

also, why spent trillions of dollars on weapons and bombs to kill each others when viruses can do it for free, without being asked?

anyway, thanks to the federal relief programs, i'm making more money sitting at home than working.

phuck yeah! lol


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 05:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Stock Tip:
Kelco Supply Company.
Arlington Bondol.
Frigid Fluid.
The Dodge Company.
The Champion Company.
Pierce Chemicals.
Trinity Fluids.
ESCO.
All are Buy Now!


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 06:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Since by his own reckoning, Dave has the most accurate numbers.... exactly how many people in Missouri have been tested?


 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
So if the infection and fatality rate hold for the entire population of Missouri, we could lose 14,041.456 people to the virus.

Do you think the .456 person will get a discount at the funeral home?


Also, which set of numbers are correct?

Fractional people need to know these things.


No. Categorically & Absolutely, can NOT be placed into a mathematical equation to calculate this type of broad-based ratio analysis. Sorry.

'grits...I can't help but feel just a bit insulted, and possibly even a tad more than THAT; as though my ability to perform in-depth statistical analysis has perhaps been, ummm...impugned.

With THAT said, my recent verified calculations show that the death to infection percentage rate GLOBALLY (as of last night's W.H.O. figures) is:

.0606588488219724 or 6.0659%

The death to infection percentage rate in the UNITED STATES (per the same date from the numbers at the W.H.O.) is:

.0372762832802152 or 3.7276%


So, even though we're a major contributor to the GLOBAL NUMBER, we're ALSO actually well BEHIND that GLOBAL CURVE for the DEATH TO INFECTION PERCENTAGE RATIO BY APPROXIMATELY 38.5631%... Which is a GOOD thing.

It's actually not only a matter of numbers, it's also about provable facts.

MY FACTS ARE CORRECT!!!


. . Falcon


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 06:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"So if the infection and fatality rate hold for the entire population of Missouri, we could lose 14,041.456 people to the virus."

that's an apocalypse doomsday scenario.

i've crunched the numbers.

the global population could be reduced by 0.25 %.
maybe 0.5 % at most if the virus does not mutate into something worse.

that's the big IF.

otherwise, it's a storm in a teapot, really.
there's been a lot worse throughout human history.

anyway, people of our age have nothing to worry about.
dying of this in a few months or some cancer later on, what's the diff???


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/11/20 06:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
According to Dave, I should buy a coffin.....



what do you think you should do?


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 09:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

On the subject of why COVID-19 is affecting black Americans more severely than others, an analysis done by the Washington Post had the following information:

1. Higher rates of underlying health conditions, and less access to care

Data has long shown that black Americans have higher rates of hypertension, heart disease, diabetes and lung disease. Medical professionals have said that coronavirus exacerbates the challenges that come with these illnesses, and that’s what Trump administration officials cited first when talking about the disparity in Tuesday’s briefing.

“Health disparities have always existed for the African American community, but here again with the crisis now — it’s shining a bright light on how unacceptable that is,” Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said Wednesday.

Uché Blackstock, a physician who works at urgent care sites in Brooklyn, said existing health issues disproportionately affect black communities, making complications more likely.

“We carry a higher burden of chronic disease that predisposes us to the more serious complications of coronavirus,” Blackstock said.

A 2014 National Institutes of Health study found that hospitals in predominantly black neighborhoods are more likely to close down than those in predominantly white neighborhoods, often making it difficult for black Americans to access health care near where they live.

“We don’t have access to care and if we do it’s likely that care is of worst quality because they are often termed minority-serving,” Blackstock said. “And they may not have a specialist or the resources needed to care for covid-19 patients. And there’s implicit bias on the part of the health-care providers, and studies have shown that there’s bias toward white patients over patients of color.”

2. Black Americans hold a lot of ‘essential’ jobs

Black people are more likely to work in jobs that put workers in close contact with others who might be in poor health and that make engaging in social distancing more difficult.

According to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics compiled by the Center for American Progress, black people are overrepresented compared to the overall population in the food service industry, hotel industry and taxi drivers and chauffeurs.

Preston Mitchum, policy director for URGE, a nonprofit that advocates for liberal policy issues, said the employment opportunities available for many black people often put them at greater risk of being disproportionately harmed by the coronavirus.

“Black communities are not socially distancing less than other communities and if they are, it is likely because many of us are essential workers or working gig jobs to sustain our living. These jobs require more in-person interaction."

Jason Hargrove, a 50-year-old bus driver in Detroit, posted a video that went viral in which he said he thought he contracted the coronavirus after a passenger repeatedly coughed on his bus without covering her mouth. Hargrove died less than two weeks after he posted the video.

“He knew he wasn’t feeling well,” his wife, Desha Johnson-Hargrove, wrote for Time magazine. “It took over him so very quickly that I’m still in disbelief. He was perfectly fine — a big, strong, 6’3 man — before that day. That day forever changed my life.”

3. Insufficient information

Keneshia Grant, a political science professor at Howard University, focuses on black voters’ relationships with state and local governments. She says poor information from government leaders has shaped black people’s experience with the coronavirus.

“In short, I think the problem was not that black folks didn’t get information from their governments. The problem was that we got bad and inconsistent information from our governments. We also got information that did not seem to represent people who looked like us,” she said.

Grant said mixed messages from the Trump administration and some governors in states with large black populations caused confusion. Most black Americans — nearly 60 percent — live in the South. States like Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia are all headed by governors whose messaging on how to stay safe was often inconsistent with the guidelines of the federal government.

“I think that what black America, and the entire nation, needed was a clear message from the federal government,” she said. “I think this is especially true, because it took a long while for black people to see themselves represented in this crisis."

“A strong, coherent federal message would have been helpful toward that end,” she added.

U.S. Surgeon General Jerome M. Adams spoke at the White House task force’s briefing Friday about how black Americans are being disproportionately harmed by the illness.

“It’s alarming but it’s not surprising that people of color have a greater burden of chronic health conditions,” he said. “The chronic burden of medical ills is likely to make people of color especially less resilient to the ravages of covid-19 and it’s possible — in fact, likely — the burden of social ills is also contributing.”

Adams spoke about the need to better target messages about the importance of social distancing to communities of color, and he spoke about the needs of individuals in those communities to follow the guidelines.

4. Housing disparities

Vedette Gavin, a principal investigator for the Conservation Law Foundation’s Healthy Neighborhood Study, told The Fix that racial disparities in housing put black lives at much greater risk for contracting an illness. Her organization attempts to better understand and address the effects of neighborhood change on health in the Boston metropolitan area.

A 2017 Princeton University study found that black children are more likely to suffer from asthma because they live in older buildings that harbor fecal matter and rodent infestations, and which are in segregated neighborhoods that are near busy highways that put harmful matter into the air.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released information stating that people with asthma may be at a greater risk of dying from coronavirus.

“People of color are more likely to live in densely packed areas and in multi-generational housing situations, which create higher risk for spread of highly contagious disease like covid-19,” Adams said Friday.

“There are huge issues with housing that are at play,” Gavin said. “The poorer housing stock and code violations for asbestos, mold and cockroaches increase the risk and prevalence of respiratory and pulmonary diseases, which heighten the severity of symptoms for those who contract covid. Black and Latino families in urban centers tend to double and triple up when rent is unaffordable, making distancing in the home impossible.”


On that last point, I watched quite a shocking documentary about the Kushner Companies and their consistent, frequent, and targeted violations of housing codes and residency laws in their rental buildings in New York and Maryland. They have made millions of dollars on the backs of poor people, pulling out every last dollar from people who can't afford it. It is quite appalling.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/11/20 10:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
On that last point, I watched quite a shocking documentary about the Kushner Companies and their consistent, frequent, and targeted violations of housing codes and residency laws in their rental buildings in New York and Maryland. They have made millions of dollars on the backs of poor people, pulling out every last dollar from people who can't afford it. It is quite appalling.


He is a Slumlord, not even a questionable Slumlord and he is in charge of stuff in 50% of The People's government. When you have a government that happens to have about 50% support and a Stock Market that only 50% of Americans are invested, you are going to get a Slumlord government.
The other 50% just need to work harder, you can be anything you want to be in exceptional America. That's the myth anyway.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 12:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
According to Dave, I should buy a coffin.....



what do you think you should do?


I think I'll eat some quiche.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 02:45 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: moontan
"So if the infection and fatality rate hold for the entire population of Missouri, we could lose 14,041.456 people to the virus."

that's an apocalypse doomsday scenario.

i've crunched the numbers.

the global population could be reduced by 0.25 %.
maybe 0.5 % at most if the virus does not mutate into something worse.

that's the big IF.

otherwise, it's a storm in a teapot, really.
there's been a lot worse throughout human history.

anyway, people of our age have nothing to worry about.
dying of this in a few months or some cancer later on, what's the diff???


Right now, The World Population Clock has been estimated to just have passed 7,777,777,777 on Good Friday.

That would put the current GLOBAL mortality rate at .0001415 % for the viral contagion SARS-CoV-2. So, we'll have quite a way to go before acquiring your estimated .25 % global mortality rate across all of Earths 100% infected populous.

Of course, THAT's NOT a reasonable infected percentage. Perhaps somewhere between 20 to 30 % world be better modeling.

. . Falcon


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 02:49 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Holy phucque moontan, where the hell have you been!? (notice it's holy saturday and I'm allowed to drop the devout belief concern because everything is in limbo right now)

Okay, I'm starting to feel a little more confident about our chances.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/12/20 02:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Doofie
Holy phucque moontan, where the hell have you been!? (notice it's holy saturday and I'm allowed to drop the devout belief concern because everything is in limbo right now)

Okay, I'm starting to feel a little more confident about our chances.


i was working, until recently.

anyway, i'm a lot more concerned about being able to find yeast and flour on the store shelves than about this disease, to tell the truth.
i could survive a long while with only instant coffee, peanut butter and bread. ; )

as long as this thing doesn't mutate into something worse, we should be fine.
there's been much worse throughout human history than this bad cold virus.

 Originally Posted By: FalconEddy
So, we'll have quite a way to go before acquiring your estimated 0.25 % global mortality rate across all of Earths 100% infected populous.


let's just hope so.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 03:05 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Ya, I know, we should be fine. It's the ones in the challenged groups that I worry for. Never mind that I'm 2 1/2 years from 70, I still feel there are people who are more susceptible than me. But all those in the challenged group are people too. And all it takes is for me to be too cocky about my present health status for my sons to end being pall bearers in the not too distant future. Not paranoia, because there are people in our sphere of influence who have succumbed.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/12/20 03:08 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

free tip:
yeast for pizza dough work just as good as regular yeast, for making bread.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/12/20 03:09 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Doofie
Ya, I know, we should be fine. It's the ones in the challenged groups that I worry for. Never mind that I'm 2 1/2 years from 70, I still feel there are people who are more susceptible than me. But all those in the challenged group are people too. And all it takes is for me to be too cocky about my present health status for my sons to end being pall bearers in the not too distant future. Not paranoia, because there are people in our sphere of influence who have succumbed.


at almost 70 years old, you surely don't expect to live forever, do you? ;\)
i'm 'only' 60, if this disease would take me, i'd be fine with that.

if i was 30 or 40, that'd be a different story...


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 03:40 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: moontan
yeast for pizza dough work just as good as regular yeast, for making bread.


It still ain't worth 19 large. \:\)


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/12/20 03:54 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

lol \:D

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/12/20 04:04 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Go for it. \:\)

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/13/20 02:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

One month after the Rose Garden Emergency Declaration, this report gives credit where there is credit to be given, but finds that overall, the promises made by the president have not come to pass.

0-----------------------------0


A Month After Emergency Declaration, Trump's Promises Largely Unfulfilled

April 13, 20205:01 AM ET


One month ago today, President Trump declared a national emergency.

In a Rose Garden address, flanked by leaders from giant retailers and medical testing companies, he promised a mobilization of public and private resources to attack the coronavirus.

"We've been working very hard on this. We've made tremendous progress," Trump said. "When you compare what we've done to other areas of the world, it's pretty incredible."

But few of those promises have come to pass.

NPR's Investigations Team dug into each of the claims made from the podium that day. And rather than a sweeping national campaign of screening, drive-through sample collection and lab testing, it found a smattering of small pilot projects and aborted efforts.

In some cases, no action was taken at all.

Target did not formally partner with the federal government, for example.

And a lauded Google project turned out to not to be led by Google at all, and then once launched was limited to a smattering of counties in California.

The remarks in the Rose Garden highlighted the Trump administration's strategic approach: a preference for public-private partnerships. But as the White House defined what those private companies were going to do, in many cases it promised more than they could pull off.

"What became clear in the days and weeks or even in some cases the hours following that event was that they had significantly over-promised what the private sector was ready to do," said Jeremy Konyndyk, senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development.

The White House declined to comment on this story.

Drive-Through Testing Largely Nonexistent At Retail Partners

During the Rose Garden address, the president introduced a series of leaders from major retailers to suggest there would be cooperation between the federal government and private sector companies for drive-through testing.

"We've been in discussions with pharmacies and retailers to make drive-through tests available in the critical locations identified by public health professionals," President Trump said.

NPR contacted the retailers who were there and found that discussions have not led to any wide-scale implementation of drive-through tests.

In the month since the announcement, Walmart has opened two testing sites — one in the Chicago area and another in Bentonville, Ark. Walgreens has opened two in Chicago; CVS has opened four sites.

Target has not opened any. In fact, the company said it had no formal partnership with the federal government, and suggested they were waiting for the government to take the lead.

"At this time, federal, state and local officials continue to lead the planning for additional testing sites," a Target spokesperson said. "We stand committed to offering our parking lot locations and supporting their efforts when they are ready to activate."

Home Testing Promised, But Not Implemented

The president also welcomed Bruce Greenstein, an executive vice president of the LHC Group, to the microphone.

Greenstein's organization primarily provides in-home health care, and he pledged that it would be helping with testing "for Americans that can't get to a test site or live in rural areas far away from a retail establishment."

NPR called more than 20 LHC sites in 12 states, and none of them are doing in-home testing one month following the Rose Garden address. Employees at the LHC sites said they lacked both testing kits and the training to administer kits.

In response to NPR's reporting, Greenstein said that their primary focus so far has been getting proper personal protective equipment, or PPE, for their nurses, and working with hospitals on transitioning recovered COVID patients home. He says they'll start working with one New Orleans hospital "as soon as next week" to provide in-home testing, and to expand the service later.

No Screening Website To Facilitate Drive-Through Testing

During the March 13 Rose Garden address, the president also promised that Google was working to develop a website to determine whether a COVID-19 test would be warranted, and if so, to direct individuals to nearby testing.

The president said there were 1,700 Google engineers working on it, and the vice president said that guidance on the website would be available in two days.

"Google is helping to develop a website," the president said. "It's going to be very quickly done, unlike websites of the past, to determine whether a test is warranted and to facilitate testing at a nearby convenient location."

Dr. Deborah Birx, the coronavirus response coordinator at the White House, said that the website would screen patients, tell them where to receive drive-through testing, and provide testing results.

No such screening and testing website was ever developed by Google.

A pilot program was developed by Verily, a sister company to Google owned by the same parent company: Alphabet. Verily's program, called Project Baseline, was created to support California community-based COVID-19 testing from screening to testing to delivery of test results.

Verily has rolled out six testing sites primarily in coordination with the California state government — not the federal government — and is currently only available to residents of five counties in California.

During the March 13 news conference, Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, outlined a website that would screen patients, tell them where to receive testing, and provide results. No such screening service came to exist.
Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg via Getty Images

"We work in partnership with local public health agencies, the California Governor's office, and the California Department of Public Health," a spokesperson for Verily said, adding that their COVID-19 testing program was "federally supported."

There were not 1,700 engineers ever engaged in the project, as the president had claimed, according to Verily.

"As we initially ramped this program, we had nearly 1,000 volunteers from across Alphabet supporting a variety of functions," a Verily spokesperson told NPR.

Verily is in discussions with other health care organizations to support this kind of testing project outside of California, but there has been no announcement of future plans to do so.

A Department of Health and Human Services spokesperson pointed out that Apple had released a screening tool in collaboration with the CDC and the White House. That screening tool does not have the functions outlined in the March 13 Rose Garden address.

The President's Federal Agency Promises

In declaring the national emergency last month, the president also proposed several policy changes that were solely within the realm of the federal government to execute. On these, the administration largely followed through.

President Trump promised to waive interest on student loans held by government agencies, for instance. That policy was implemented by the secretary of education on March 20.

And the president made good on pledges to waive regulations and laws to give medical providers flexibility to respond to the healthcare crisis.

But there were exceptions. The president said he would waive license requirements so that doctors could practice in states with the greatest needs, for example. But medical licensing is a state issue, and the president does not have the authority to waive it.

"There's no statutory authority for the federal government to take over the delivery of health care services" says Dale Van Demark, a partner advising health industries at the law firm McDermott Will & Emery. Added Iris Hentze, policy specialist at The National Conference of State Legislatures: "These occupational licenses are really more or less completely controlled and regulated by states." What the federal government was able to do is to waive in-state requirements for healthcare providers that serve people enrolled in Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP, so they can get reimbursed for the out-of-state care they provided.

The promises weren't limited to matters of health care. The president announced that his administration would "purchase, at a very good price, large quantities of crude oil for storage in the U.S. Strategic Reserve."

"We're going to fill it right up to the top," he said, "saving the American taxpayer billions and billions of dollars."

The Trump administration has not done so. The president made the promise without first securing the funds from Congress, and the Department of Energy puts the responsibility on Congress' shoulders.

"Despite strong efforts from the Administration, Congress would not provide funding for the purchase of oil for SPR in the Stimulus bill," a Department of Energy spokesperson said. "The Department continues to work with Congress to deliver on the President's directive to provide relief to the American energy industry during this tumultuous time."

A Failure In Public-Private Partnerships

Later in that March 13 press conference, when asked whether he took responsibility for the apparent lag in coronavirus testing in the United States, the president responded, "I don't take responsibility at all."

He also suggested that laboratory capacity for testing would soon greatly expand. And he singled out two companies:

"I want to thank Roche, a great company, for their incredible work. I'd also like to thank Thermo Fisher," he said.

Trump noted that the FDA was approving their processes, and then made a prediction: "It'll go very quickly," he said. "It's going very quickly — which will bring, additionally, 1.4 million tests on board next week and 5 million within a month. I doubt we'll need anywhere near that."

Roche and Thermo Fisher Scientific said they were able to get millions of tests distributed on schedule to labs in the United States, one of the rare bright spots in the coronavirus crisis. These tests are what are used at labs to check whether samples contain the coronavirus.

But those tests were not the primary reason for inadequate testing. The United States lags behind in sample collection kits — the swabs and tubes that frontline medical workers send to labs.

And those labs themselves struggled with processing capacity.

In the days before the March 13 Rose Garden address, leaders of diagnostic testing labs like LabCorp and Quest went to the White House with three core requests. And during the Rose Garden address, the CEOs of those two organizations stood with the president as the coronavirus task force pledged to wield government resources for their partnership.

More than a month later, the diagnostic testing labs — and the group that represents them in Washington, the American Clinical Laboratory Association — still have those three requests: government funds to build new testing facilities, national standards to prioritize who gets tested, and government support for the supply chain.

Konyndyk said it was an indication that the public-private partnerships the president touted on March 13 were a one-way street.

"What you want to have is a constructive partnership between the federal government and the private sector. Instead, what we see, I think, is a game of 'not it,'" said Konyndyk, who served in the Obama administration at USAID, leading the government response to international disasters.

Although the federal government needs the help of the private sector, the federal government has only limited power over those companies. So to make things work, there needs to be close cooperation and advanced negotiation before announcing what companies will do, and that didn't happen, Konyndyk said.

Private companies did part of what was promised in the Rose Garden address — there is more testing today than a month ago.

But by over-promising what private sector companies would do — and in some cases, without adequate consultation about what they could do — the White House left other pledges that day unfulfilled.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/13/20 02:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

With all the people and groups involved I see an endless supply of others to blame for this "hoax". I wonder when Dr Fauci gets fired for disloyalty?

BmC
(Planeteer)
04/19/20 12:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Came across this on a FB friend's post. Now before anyone jumps me for posting "fake news", try and keep an open mind. I am not saying it's legit, I definitely not saying it isn't legit. But I don't believe anything that is coming from governments, without transparency. Too many unanswered questions out there, too many leads not being followed by the MSM.

video.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/19/20 02:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Doesn't seem to be news except on right wing fake news sites. It doesn't matter if it is true or not. Someone other than Drumpf is going to be blamed. That is how a functioning psychopath functions.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/20/20 09:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I think Donny will soon be saying that he didn't promote the use of hydroxychloroquine.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/20/20 11:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Since the Federal governments leadership can't seem to provide test kits and States are on their own, Maryland Governor bought 500,000 test kits from South Korea. Isn't that a designated shithole country?

This Is What Leadership Looks Like


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/22/20 06:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Sweden seems to be doing things much differently a good read for those that are frightened.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/22/20 07:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are




Seems to be a contradiction from the link I posted about Sweden, no surprise to me.

Follow The Herd

LD's link is spectator.co.uk a Conservative source. My link is from businessinsider.com I am guessing Liberal?

So this is how the divide is created and continues on. One or both of these articles are wrong. Why are facts so difficult?

My link compares Finland, Norway, and Sweden and their different approaches to deal with the coronavirus and the results.

LD's link only brings up how poorly Finland and Norway are doing financially compared to Sweden.

and the divide justs keeps on going................



Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/22/20 07:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

My facts are truer than your facts.....that's the name of the game here.

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/22/20 07:27 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant



Seems to be a contradiction from the link I posted about Sweden, no surpise to me.

Follow The Herd

LD's link is spectator.co.uk a Conservative source. My link is from businessinsider.com I am guessing Liberal?

So this is how the divide is created and continues on. One or both of these articles are wrong. Why are facts so difficult?

My link compares Finland, Norway, and Sweden and their different approaches to deal with the coronavirus and the results.

LD's link only brings up how poorly Finland and Norway are doing financially compared to Sweden.

and the divide justs keeps on going................



I'm wondering if LD even read that entire article. It wasn't necessarily a rosy picture that was painted. Good grief.


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/22/20 08:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

First known U.S. coronavirus death was weeks earlier than previously thought
A person who died at home in Santa Clara County on Feb. 6 was infected with the coronavirus at the time of death, a stunning discovery that makes that individual the first recorded COVID-19 fatality in the United States, according to autopsy results released by public health officials late Tuesday.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/22/20 08:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
My facts are truer than your facts.....that's the name of the game here.


Or there are facts and alternative facts. Just this alone continues the great divide. How do you solve this? I am more interested in right or wrong, not win or lose.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/22/20 08:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant



Seems to be a contradiction from the link I posted about Sweden, no surpise to me.

Follow The Herd

LD's link is spectator.co.uk a Conservative source. My link is from businessinsider.com I am guessing Liberal?

So this is how the divide is created and continues on. One or both of these articles are wrong. Why are facts so difficult?

My link compares Finland, Norway, and Sweden and their different approaches to deal with the coronavirus and the results.

LD's link only brings up how poorly Finland and Norway are doing financially compared to Sweden.

and the divide justs keeps on going................



I'm wondering if LD even read that entire article. It wasn't necessarily a rosy picture that was painted. Good grief.


I wondered the same thing. Although LD's link page was titled "The Swedish experiment looks like it’s paying off"
So it's about money in Sweden as opposed to lives lost compared to other Scandinavian countries.
This is the Death Panel thing again. Cost vs Lives. I always feel you can make more money, and I know of no one brought back from death.


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/23/20 01:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

And then we have this fiasco from the CDC

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/23/20 01:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt


I know. I already read that news from another source.

New York Times

Washington Post


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/23/20 01:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Forbes

CNN

CNBC


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/23/20 03:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster


Lol. The USA has forgotten how to manufacture. Our greedy corporations seeking below living wage labor has countries like Chiner doing the manufacturing. That has everything to do with PPE and test kit shortages. If corporations are people, what is wrong with these people?
National Security manufacturing like the defense industry isn't done in Chiner, maybe this should apply to all the medical items we have in short supply.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/23/20 09:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Doofie
I think Donny will soon be saying that he didn't promote the use of hydroxychloroquine.


Well why in hell wouldn't he, Doofie?

I mean, outside of this man being a total train wreck, with the number of things he's walked back and tried to convince people (mostly himself) he's never done or said over the last 3+ years of his time in office, I've referred to him as president 180° on MANY occasions.

It's almost like one of his 'trademarks', in that you sort of expect him to do this at some point in the future. I've heard that some people even have office pools where they chip in and bet on the date and time that he reneges on a particular statement he's made in the past.

You can almost set your watch by how often this guy either walks things back, gives you a 'Trump fact', or just plain old flagrantly lies about something.

. . Falcon


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/24/20 02:54 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This is real. And it's disturbing. A quote from today's press conference:

 Quote:
So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful, light — and I think you said that hasn’t been checked but you’re going to test it — and then I said suppose you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting.


Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside? Or almost a cleaning, ‘cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it’d be interesting to check that. So you’re going to have to use medical doctors but it sounds interesting to me, so we’ll see but the whole concept of the light. The way it kills it in one minute, that’s pretty powerful.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/24/20 08:08 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
This is real. And it's disturbing. A quote from today's press conference:

 Quote:
So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful, light — and I think you said that hasn’t been checked but you’re going to test it — and then I said suppose you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting.


Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside? Or almost a cleaning, ‘cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it’d be interesting to check that. So you’re going to have to use medical doctors but it sounds interesting to me, so we’ll see but the whole concept of the light. The way it kills it in one minute, that’s pretty powerful.


Yeah!! Cool, HUH!

That's a GREAT IDEA DONNIE!

Why don't you have them try the Lysol liquid injection treatment with an ultraviolet intubation tube chaser on YOU FIRST . Howsa 'bout THAT you stupid muhthurphucker.

My GAWD!!!

I swear...sometimes I truly believe Trump has the IQ of a moron, seriously.

Either THAT, or he belongs in a padded cell, whacked up with about ohhhhh 75mg Haloperidol IM injection. He's lost touch with reality.

I can't believe they haven't discussed enacting the 25th Amendment in private yet...with all the things this guy has said lately? He's gone off the deep end. Somebody had better already changed his launch codes to the Nuclear Football.

. . Falcon


Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/24/20 09:26 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Like a child. A dangerous one.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/24/20 12:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

On today's thing about light and injecting some sort of cleaner, this is something people should learn as they become managers, which is that when they say things off the cuff, people take them seriously.

I learned this during my time in Afghanistan, early on. I can't remember what the subject was, but I was musing out loud about trying an idea with some of my direct reports - not something thought out, and certainly not a plan or well-developed idea - and imagine my surprise when I saw people scurrying around trying to make it happen. I had to stop people. And from then on, I thought very, very carefully about the things I said out loud, especially in front of the staff. They are accustomed to dropping everything and doing what the boss asks *right now*. I don't generally expect that (unless I specifically say "I need you to stop what you're doing and do this right this moment, please" or somethign like that).

I don't think the president is aware of this. He likes riffing. But a lot of people take his words seriously.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/24/20 04:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
I don't think the president is aware of this. He likes riffing. But a lot of people take his words seriously.


I watched that news/bs conference. It seems clear Drumpf isn't a details guy, he likes to use his gut instincts. I go with gut instinct myself without any major catastrophes.
But Drumpf's gut instincts have a spotty track record, 4 bankruptcies kind of proves this. His job now is POTUS and his gut affects our lives, I know he would like to wish this away with a sunny day at the beach. So he continues to gamble on.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/24/20 04:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

if they're stupid enough to shoot up Lysol, let them do it.

i bet we could lose half of the human race and be better of for it. ;\)


ulank
(Planeteer)
04/24/20 05:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Some Lysol and bat wings in your pea soup will make you immune!

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/24/20 05:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
Some Lysol and bat wings in your pea soup will make you immune!

do you reduce the Lysol first? lol

anyhow, looks like this "flattening the curve" ain't happening anytime soon.

still looks like Mount Everest or K2. ;\)



WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/24/20 05:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Oh, Trump was just being sarcastic about injecting disinfectants to see what the reaction would be.

Sure. I believe that.



FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/25/20 06:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Quite a while back near the beginning of flat's thread, he said at the end of one of his replies to Vanillagrits:

"I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."

That was a really kind comment and highly diplomatic olive branch to offer him; and since I cannot possibly say it any better to those of you that apparently have slight to monumental issues with me for one reason, or enough to fill the universe; I am extending that same olive branch to them.

In particular:

Hong Kong Phooey

Vanillagrits

motown59

slotz

BmC


...and ALL OTHER Planeteers and their immediate & extended families that are, or may be, in harms way due to the SARS-CoV-2 contagion.

Therefore, with one small additional word to all of you:

"I sincerely hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."

I am truly NOT a vindictive person by nature, and do not wish that anyone believes this is the case (I'm also NOT narcissistic, I'm just attempting to offer up a fact, or two). We all have our idiosyncrasies as well as our passions, bad days, and worse days due to health reasons.

Some of us even have powerful cases of ADHD that creates an unwanted, yet ever-present negative trait of hyper-focusing on something that goes against the grain of what we value to be correct/right, and out of our direct control.

It removes all chances to effect change for the better for all people, based on wide & varied sources of expert facts & opinion; and our direct knowledge & opinions also. Venting is one of the ways we deal with that issue. Narcissists, egomaniacs, and ignorant pathological liars are the most difficult type of personality people to deal with for us since they will never accept blame or responsibility, and MUST appear perfect in every way to others by walking back comments, or stating they never made them in the first place.

So, that's about all Planeteers. Stay safe and healthy, and I wish you all the best in these trying times. We have enough wolves knocking at our doors and need to better understand WHICH ONE to feed, my friends.

We shouldn't be in-fighting within The Planet Forums, I really don't believe THAT's why this place was created. Sure, opposition to opinions obviously happen, but if you were face-to-face with that same person IRL on the street, would you actually be saying the EXACT SAME THINGS YOU TYPE ONTO THE PAGES IN THIS FORUM.

I genuinely doubt that very much. Let's try using a few carrots around here instead of a 2 x 4, and trim off a bit of the past people seem to be hanging onto for some reason.

. . FalconEddy


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/25/20 07:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Today, the Washington Post is reporting a number of stroke victims associated with COVID-19 who are atypical of people who normally are prone to getting strokes - people in their 30s and 40s.

It looks as if corona and COVID-19 are a lot nastier than medical experts have thought.

I really wonder what the long-term effects of this illness will be. Like something like Hep-C, damaging your liver silently until it's too late. We obviously don't know anything about that yet, but it's quite unnerving.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/25/20 08:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

the Province has *recommended* people wear masks when in public.

no phuckin way i'm gonna wear one of those, unless i'm required by law.

you can see some people wearing them, but it's thankfully very rare.

at this point, i'm more worried about dying of alcohol poisoning than this phuckin virus ! lol


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/25/20 09:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We live in remarkable times.

Why do I say that?

Because I am reading an article, in a major publication, entitled:

Why It's Important Not To Drink Bleach

I think it's quite amazing that this publication felt the need to write an article under that headline. That it would have to explain something so self-evidently true.

I can't decide if there's something wrong with the magazine, or with the world. Probably both.

Why It's Important Not To Drink Bleach ... imagine.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/25/20 09:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

Why It's Important Not To Drink Bleach ... imagine.


you know, people should have to pass tests in order to be allowed to vote. lol ;\)
why my vote should weight the same as the audience this article is aimed at is beyond me.


motown59
(Planeteer)
04/25/20 09:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: FalconEddy
Quite a while back near the beginning of flat's thread, he said at the end of one of his replies to Vanillagrits:

"I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."

That was a really kind comment and highly diplomatic olive branch to offer him; and since I cannot possibly say it any better to those of you that apparently have slight to monumental issues with me for one reason, or enough to fill the universe; I am extending that same olive branch to them.

In particular:





motown59







I don’t know why you included me on your list. I have zero issues with you. I will apologize if there was something interpreted as a slight.

I agree with your sentiments


Hong Kong Phooey
(Planeteer)
04/25/20 10:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are


Likely the,"VanToolski", comment..


motown59
(Planeteer)
04/25/20 11:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I was just riffing on the name you made up with decidedly stupid Motown humor

Andy McClelland
(Planeteer)
04/25/20 11:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Well I, for one, happen to like decidedly stupid Motown humour.

I would love to do a gig with you sometime. There wouldn't be much playing, but I bet we would laugh a lot.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 12:49 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Off topic but, is it okay if I strongly prefer the title to read, "Why It's Important To Not Drink Bleach"? The other way seems vulgar to me.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 01:04 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

why people should not drink bleach is obvious:
it's not part of the 4 essential food groups:

* instant coffee
* peanut butter
* weed
* other drugs and alcohol


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 02:08 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: motown59
 Originally Posted By: FalconEddy
Quite a while back near the beginning of flat's thread, he said at the end of one of his replies to Vanillagrits:

"I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."

That was a really kind comment and highly diplomatic olive branch to offer him; and since I cannot possibly say it any better to those of you that apparently have slight to monumental issues with me for one reason, or enough to fill the universe; I am extending that same olive branch to them.

In particular:





motown59







I don’t know why you included me on your list. I have zero issues with you. I will apologize if there was something interpreted as a slight.

I agree with your sentiments


 Originally Posted By: motown59
I was just riffing on the name you made up with decidedly stupid Motown humor


OK, I get it now. At the time I wasn't to happy of a camper back in your 'So this is the Political Forum Lite Now?' thread. That comment started off with a derogatory comment carried over from HKP, who just constantly manifests comments by railing into me, and angrily taunting me with his disparaging remarks.

So please pardon me that I didn't recognize the joke in the reply you gave. Sorry.

Yes, I also think you're one of the brightest and best here on The Planet. Your final mixes have always been clean & pristine that I've received, and no issues here with you either, Kel.

. . Falcon


Timster
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 06:28 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I do wear a mask going into the crowded supermarkets and at work if I know I will come into contact with strangers.

IDK why your potus has to brainstorm his off brand gut feelings. He tries so hard to look smart, but the dude just is not.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 12:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Timster
. He tries so hard to look smart, but the dude just is not.


when you have tell people you're really smart, you are probably not really smart.....


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 12:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 02:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."

Maybe I take it for granted, but I truly believe that deep down, we all feel this way about our associates here at the planet. Tom may have been the first to actually say it, but admit it, we all feel that way.....even when we're pissed off.

Falcon, you called me an antagonistic little prick, but I think that's incorrect. I'm an ornery old bastard, but my intentions are good. I prodded you because I have enjoyed so many of your posts, you're obviously a smart guy (at times bordering on brilliant) and I thought the predictable hate Trump stuff was beneath you. Maybe I should have been more direct about it.......maybe a little smoother.

I sincerely thank you for making the gesture you did.

I apologze again for the PaulB comparison, that was a bit extreme......I should have maybe used Tom Mix or Brian Roberts. Do I really need to put a smiley face here?

I'm not in love with Trump, but we have so much more to deal with right now. The way forward is a tough call, I don't care who or how smart you are.

"I hope, very, very much, that it doesn't touch you or your family."


FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 02:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We have a neighbor across the street. He's been out in the driveway working on a car. Yesterday around sunset, I walked across the street and hollered a greeting to him from the curb. He came over to visit - a little inside my 6 foot territorial imperitive for my comfort. When the 'pandemic' subject came up, he said he thought it was all a government power grab, that there was actually no pandemic killing tens of thousands of people in the US and around the world.

I reminded him that it has killed 50K plus Americans. He had no response but our conversation continued for a few more minutes. When we parted, he stuck his bare hand out to shake. I apologized for not accepting his handshake.

He said they are taking the 75 year old lady who owns the house, out of a nursing home and bringing her home. Just what she needs - to be living under the same roof with a guy with such a cavalier and dangerous view of the pandemic.


FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 02:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I have another question - My apologies if I missed earlier coverage in this thread. I haven't kept up with it throughout.

But, what are your predictions regarding re-opening the country, state by state.

Will the infection and death rate spike again? Or are happy days here again?


BmC
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 03:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yeah I don't know why FalconEddy included me in list of adversaries, he's never done anything to me, other than advocate for my removal from the Planet.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 04:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

In our province, slow and methodical, and keep testing to watch for changes, up or down. The talk for when to start looking at changes to public assemblies is beginning. Late May is what I see as a possible time to begin very small group assemblies with people outside of the high risk groups.

Will there be another spike? Yes, if people rush out the doors too soon. So far about 7% of Canadians tested have been positive. That means there may be 93% of people that are still potentially vulnerable. And they will stay vulnerable until a vaccine has been developed and is accepted by the general population.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 05:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

there should be tests one should have to go through before being allowed to serve as POTUS, y'a know?

starting with IQ tests. lol

nuking hurricanes, eh? ???

don't get me wrong, it would be a good idea if it wasn't so idiotic. lol \:D


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 06:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.


These phony claims make you look rather silly.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 06:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."


These phony claims make you look rather silly.


it is a direct quote from President Lysol himself.



Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 09:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Windmills cause cancer.

FatherApe
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 09:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What? I’ve been injecting windmills for years!

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 11:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.



These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/26/20 11:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.



These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/26/20 11:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Trump Cult Syndrome, it's gonna kill us all.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 03:01 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You're right jimmy, you don't look silly. I don't know to what grits is referring.

Timster
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/27/20 05:03 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.



These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.

Totally accurate. I saw the video of him saying this.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/27/20 04:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I know a guy who said, of this whole thing, on Facebook, the following:

"If you've ever gotten a flu shot, you have injected a disinfectant. Can we get to the next outrage."

Because apparently, used in sufficient quantity, something called thimerosol, and formaldehyde, both used as preservatives in vaccines, are disinfectants.

So obviously the president knew that, and that's what he was referring to. He didn't say go drink bleach or inject yourself with chemicals, and if people did that, it doesn't have anything to do with anything he said.

I am not making that up. Apparently it's more important to be right than to admit that the president might have said something that was incredibly ill-advised.


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 04:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

(TPEU) Tide Pod Eaters Unite!

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/27/20 04:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

not that nuking hurricanes is the brightest thing he came up with either.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 05:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Can we get to the next outrage."





we should be focused on the previous outrage which is still lack of a coherent plan and leadership from "the shipping clerk" .... testing...can I get a test if I want one?


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/27/20 05:41 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 08:52 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: FatherApe
I have another question - My apologies if I missed earlier coverage in this thread. I haven't kept up with it throughout.

But, what are your predictions regarding re-opening the country, state by state.

Will the infection and death rate spike again? Or are happy days here again?


Unfortunately, F.A., I've run thru this very scenario with a fairly high percentage of educated speculation. Due to the very premise of the unknown variables that need to be inserted into this equation to obtain a range of numbers; I cannot guarantee a specific margin of safety as the floodgates are opened. No one can.

This main issue here is because with roughly around 1.67% of our nation's population having been tested at this point, with 17.71% testing positive out of 5,434,943 tests (NOT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE); this leaves nearly a 20% possibility that infected people will immediately start to infect others. IT IS INEVITABLE.

Then, we go right back to the infection's exponential growth. and logarithmic growth rate mathematical model. EXCEPT THIS TIME we're NOT starting from a 'patient zero'. We're 'starting' with what's known as an established cluster of unknown proportions.

I predict the number of new infections will at least triple within the first 60 days...depending on how wide & loose the re-openings are across the States.

As I stated in a reply to a thread some time back, this is NOT a time to be kissing Trump's a$$; it's a Pandora's Box scenario & when you knock over that first domino, it's going to be far too late to get in front of the collapse and keep the rest of it from all come crashing down.

Granted, Trump didn't make this contagion, or bring it to our shores. He ALSO didn't want to believe it was a MAJOR THREAT after being warned several times, and continued dragging his feet rather than scrambling to immediately seek scientific advice & assistance to conceive a plan and implement it.

We need to keep him AWAY FROM THAT DAMN PODIUM , and all daily briefings! He should have been named 'Dennis' which would have been MUCH more appropriate. DENNIS THE MENACE.

. . Falcon


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 09:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don’t disagree with the math, but there is one variable we do not have a datapoint for. We do not know how many people have already been infected, and did not have severe enough symptoms to go to a doctor.
Without a good antibody test, and a large enough population sample, we can’t know this.


mike gouthro
(Planeteer)
04/27/20 10:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Falcon

I appreciate the analysis you provide in your posts. There is a conspicuous lack of it in the mainstream media on which I have been gorging recently.

An expert guest on Bill Maher last Friday argued for the need to return to normal in an ambitious way. He referenced a recent large random sample test in New York state which suggested 15% had the virus. He then inferred a mortality rate of 1/2 of one percent as if that was a good number. Maher took no issue with his analysis.

Since there is no immunity, I calculate that 350,000,000 Americans X .005 = 1,750,000 deaths - a little higher than the 30000 to 60000 per year attributed to the annual flu or the 50 to 60 thousand Trump hopes for Covid.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 04:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

AG William Barr has asked federal prosecutors around the country to begin looking at whether state and local orders which might curtail individual liberty need to be challenged in Federal court. The Washington Post reports Michigan might be first in line.

The population favors the restrictions.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powe...a-warning-shot/


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 05:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Seven coronavirus models show US coronavirus deaths will rise in coming weeks, but how sharply depends on how much "contact reduction" Americans practice, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said.

FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/28/20 05:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: mike gouthro
Falcon

I appreciate the analysis you provide in your posts. There is a conspicuous lack of it in the mainstream media on which I have been gorging recently.

An expert guest on Bill Maher last Friday argued for the need to return to normal in an ambitious way. He referenced a recent large random sample test in New York state which suggested 15% had the virus. He then inferred a mortality rate of 1/2 of one percent as if that was a good number. Maher took no issue with his analysis.

Since there is no immunity, I calculate that 350,000,000 Americans X .005 = 1,750,000 deaths - a little higher than the 30000 to 60000 per year attributed to the annual flu or the 50 to 60 thousand Trump hopes for Covid.


Mike, as you are one of the very earliest members here on The VS Planet, I appreciate your kudos very much.

That Friday Maher show also raised a question for me, as well. If there turns out to actually BE no immunity after further research; INCLUSIVE OF HAVING ANTIBODIES FROM HAVING THE SARS-CoV-2 VIRUS , this was be a prime indicator that creating a vaccine would most likely not prevent the person getting immunized from becoming infected.

It also may have only a VERY low percentage of efficacy and/or limited/fluctuating duration of effectiveness over 'n' period of time. THIS would NOT be great news if confirmed by the world's leaders in epidemiology/immunology research.

But, it is what it is. Although I would seriously like to be on that research team, I'm actually T= -126 days to my submission for an Electrical & Mechanical Doctor of Philosophy degree. I'm in good to great shape with mostly everything right now, and my supervisor says I'm actually a bit ahead of things, with an excellent dissertation, for this timeline.

. . Falcon


ulank
(Planeteer)
04/28/20 05:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
AG William Barr has asked federal prosecutors around the country to begin looking at whether state and local orders which might curtail individual liberty need to be challenged in Federal court. The Washington Post reports Michigan might be first in line.

The population favors the restrictions.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powe...a-warning-shot/


Your link be dead.

We got a guy here in Illinois challenging the governor on his authority to order an extended lockdown.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/28/illinois-lawmaker-governor-lawsuit/


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 06:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Try this one

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powe...e0fa3dea9c4414/


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 06:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I wonder if the shutdown affects Drumpfs ability to pay his bills. Obviously the guy is in deep debt, that is why no tax returns were released. How do people still support this?

C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 07:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Heading to the beach today --- find a secluded spot -- and take in the "sterile -field" sea air ... for a few hours.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/28/20 07:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

So could this be a conflict of interest situation at this point?

"According to a Thursday report from The New York Times, the Trump Organization reportedly reached out to Deutsche Bank at the end of March to ask if they could delay payments of some of the "hundreds of millions of dollars of outstanding loans," they've taken from the bank.

Last month, the president admitted his businesses were struggling due to measures taken to prevent the spread of the novel coronavirus. At the time, Trump said he wasn't sure whether his organization would accept any government bailout money and told reporters he did not discuss his businesses with his sons who run them."

"Like other hotels around the world, Trump's have been forced to lay off most workers -- and face the fact that the $435 million in revenues that the Trump Organization reported in 2018 is likely to plummet this year.

How severe that would be to a family-controlled business notoriously untransparent about its finances is unknown.

And it has raised questions over whether Trump's concerns about his own company are shaping his response to the crisis: whether part of the giant $2 trillion economic rescue plan agreed overnight Tuesday in Congress will end up helping his hotel and resort businesses, and whether his push for a quick end to the coronavirus lockdown is to save the company."


calypso
(Planeteer)
04/28/20 09:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The public has spoken – it’s time to get back to work. Neither logic nor science can overrule a determined populace.

If the New York lethality rate holds up (approx. 0.5%) that should be good news, right?

Bad news: no vaccine; no effective treatment.

The virus is very contagious, so we may easily believe it will continue to spread until 2/3 of the population has it. It will probably do that easily before a vaccine is found.

So the infected U.S population will eventually be 200 million (approx.). Of those, 1 million will die (0.5%).

Is there anything we can do to lower that number? Probably not. If you can’t make a vaccine (lower the infection rate) or lower the lethality (with a treatment), it’s just a question of when, not if.

More bad news: that assumes the medical system can continue to save lives among the sick at the current rate. If it spikes again and we run out of ICU/ventilator resources, more will die.

Thus, we can make the 1 million number worse, but we can’t make it better.

Speaking for myself, I will wear a mask and avoid crowds as much as possible and hope I don’t contribute to anything over the unavoidable toll. It’s going to be a dismal year.

(At the risk of flogging another horse – the coronavirus is just climate change sped up. If we can’t generate a response to a disaster that unfolds in mere months, what chance of addressing one that occurs over decades?)


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/28/20 09:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
The public has spoken – it’s time to get back to work.



What?


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:50 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
The public has spoken – it’s time to get back to work. Neither logic nor science can overrule a determined populace.




65% say no.

marist poll


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:48 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.





These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.


I still haven't seen what it is you're talking about.

I did find this though:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1255129822306729984

“No, I don’t believe so at all. My son’s business dealings were not anything what everybody that he’s talking about. Not even remotely,”

Rocket Scientist


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:59 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.





These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.


I still haven't seen what it is you're talking about.



yes you have.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 12:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.





These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.


I still haven't seen what it is you're talking about.



yes you have.


When? What was I wearing? Who was I with? What are my cats names?
Hint: None of them are named Flat.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 12:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs."

A cleaning...perfect and lets nuke those hurricanes while we're at it.





These phony claims make you look rather silly.


I dont look silly at all. Even if FOX is your source you know the quote is accurate.


So thats where we are..there is actual video proof of what was said but the faithful say no that didnt happen, it was sarcasm or media cherry picking.


I still haven't seen what it is you're talking about.



yes you have.


When? What was I wearing? Who was I with? What are my cats names?
Hint: None of them are named Flat.


I have no idea. Not relevant.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 12:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Silly games. Lets pivot back to your claim that it didnt happen. Your turn.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 01:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Show me.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 02:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Show me.


nope.

Who's looking silly now?


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 03:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

remember all those folks crowding the florida beaches last weekend?


Florida coronavirus cases surpass 32,800 as death toll grows by 83, highest in single day.


wonder how many of those beach people, have taken the virus home to their loved ones.

i guess we'll see another surge there soon.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 03:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Liberty or Death, lol what Idiots

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 04:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Show me.


nope.

Who's looking silly now?


John Cleese


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 04:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Show me.


nope.

Who's looking silly now?


John Cleese


Sure, we can make a list.
1. John Cleese
2. The President of the United States who said: "I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" Trump said Thursday during the briefing. "Because you see it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number on the lungs." And asked his medical team to look into it.
3. You for saying item #2 didnt happen


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 04:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Another creating your own reality and denying the obvious is the MO. "but continue to spread the lie!" All lot of deaths from this lie.
A woman who lost her grandfather
"My grandfather died today. He voted for you. He believed you when you said this virus was no worse than the flu. He believed every lie you muttered and sputtered. He died today from Covid-19 one day after his 66th wedding anniversary. You’re a disgrace to the human race."

Dear Leader
"I never said the pandemic was a Hoax! Who would say such a thing? I said that the Do Nothing Democrats, together with their Mainstream Media partners, are the Hoax. They have been called out & embarrassed on this, even admitting they were wrong, but continue to spread the lie!"



Funky Low End
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 04:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

4. Jimmyrock, for playing stupid in order to make a political point.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 05:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
4. Jimmyrock, for playing stupid in order to make a political point.


nope I still do not look silly. Your president said those things.

If you're auditioning for a spot on the list let me know which camp do you fall into, he was being sarcastic or media cherry picked?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 05:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The sarcastic thing has got to be the lamest spin ever used. I get He was just throwing stuff out there but a virus pandemic meeting isn't a business meeting. He should let the qualified speak and He should just shut up.
Even the "hoax" remark spin is a better spin. The democrats and liberal media are a hoax, ok the base will accept this excuse. But a closer look and Drumpfs lack of doing much of anything for a few weeks certainly looks like he thought the virus was a hoax.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 05:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
The sarcastic thing has got to be the lamest spin ever used. I get He was just throwing stuff out there

even that....
he spitballed to the entire nation that maybe the medical guys should see if drinking bleach is a good idea...he's a real thinker


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 06:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
Drumpfs lack of doing much of anything for a few weeks certainly looks like he thought the virus was a hoax.


its either he thought it was hoax and did nothing or he didnt want the stock market to be impacted if he did something so he didnt do anything...but yeah lots of lost time that had real consequences.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The Communist Approach

Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

well, well, well...

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Why did Drumpf shutdown if it isn't the right thing to do?

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
Why did Drumpf shutdown if it isn't the right thing to do?


And why hasn't he fired Fauci?


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt



https://www.turnto23.com/news/coronaviru...wn-from-youtube

https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/joint-endorsed/physician-misinformation


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt


ha ha ha...put MD at the end of the name or wear scrubs and bam instant expert!


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://calmatters.org/health/2020/04/debunking-bakersfield-doctors-covid-spread-conclusions/

Webster
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Data on Gilead drug raises hopes in pandemic fight, Fauci calls it 'highly significant'

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 10:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt


Fox News is a Public Health Threat

In a rare statement late today, the American College of Emergency Physicians and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine declared they “emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Messihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.”


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Their predictions never come true. Their model numbers were hundreds of thousands off. So they will continue to have sceptics. Like myself. Those are Doctors with the real numbers.

And we are now being told about fudging the death from coronavirus. Why would anyone do that?


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

LD - if you are going to share misinformation, please take it to the Political forum.

Thanks in advance.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

That is what I asked you before, why would numbers be fudged? What is the motivation?

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/29/20 11:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
Their predictions never come true.


58k US deaths since March...try not to worry about predictions


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:13 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Wish
LD - if you are going to share misinformation, please take it to the Political forum.

Thanks in advance.

Exactly what part of my post was misinformation?
That's a serious question and I would be glad to hear it.


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:15 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
 Originally Posted By: Wish
LD - if you are going to share misinformation, please take it to the Political forum.

Thanks in advance.

Exactly what part of my post was misinformation?
That's a serious question and I would be glad to hear it.




WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:16 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You should put a little more rigor in vetting your sources.

Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:22 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Because some Doctors disagree, doesn't mean misinformation even when they say it.

Trying to force silence isn't a good idea.

The numbers don't lie.

The infection rate is way off and their initial death rate is way lower than predicted.

Something is fishy.


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:27 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I have no problem with that...but I do have a problem with posting debunked misinformation here.

Please take the debunked misinformation to the Political forum.

Thanks.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:35 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
their initial death rate is way lower than predicted.


so 58k US dead since March is indicative of no problem? please note that this number is influenced by massive sheltering in place, so are you saying thats been a very effective effort?


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 01:20 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The numbers are off because we don't have any sort of national, coordinated, testing regimen. All of the figures of deaths I see in reputable media have the caveat "at least", or "that experts are aware of".

It's not called a novel coronavirus because it's like it's from a book. It's new. We don't understand it well. And we made a lot of mistakes in responding early, which have left us without a lot of good data on which to base decisions. That lack of information has had, and will continue to have, real world consequences.

Two hospitals have one patient each who dies. Both patients had symptoms consistent with COVID-19 and died in similar ways. Rather than use a scarce-as-hen's-teeth test on a dead body, neither hospital tests the body for COVID-19. One hospital says that one died of it because the patient had symptoms consistent with the disease. The other says their patient did not, because despite having symptoms consistent with the disease, you didn't do the test so you can't say for sure.

This is one reason among many that it would be nice if we had a coordinated response to this from the federal government, including standards for declaring cause of death.

But we don't. As a result, we are never really going to know for 100% sure how many people died from COVID-19, or how many people had it.

Is this not self-evident? Does this not explain how it's possible that we might undercount deaths due to COVID-19?


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 02:07 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
Because some Doctors disagree, doesn't mean misinformation even when they say it.

Trying to force silence isn't a good idea.

The numbers don't lie.

The infection rate is way off and their initial death rate is way lower than predicted.

Something is fishy.


Yes, the whole world is in on the conspiracy to hurt Trumps election chances. Every country is damaging their economy and producing misinformation, all for the purpose of helping the Democrats in the US.
I have a suggestion for you. Make sure you ignore social distancing. Get right out there and ignore all this nonsense. Don’t worry about hand sanitizing either. It’s all a fishy hoax. Nothing to be concerned about


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 02:32 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Says Dr. Morris. Gee thanks for the sound advice. Look at the facts. The numbers never added up both the infection rate and the fatality ratio are both way smaller numbers than predicted. <--- Maybe instead of giving advice on anything that you don't know about, try looking at facts. Ask yourself what prompted New York to call more than 3,000 deaths as COVID-19 when they weren't tested for it. Just ask yourself, or not.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 02:46 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Sure, they are all inflating the numbers for their own devious purposes. It’s all a hoax. The whole world is in on the hoax. The medical and political leaders of every country in the world are all part of the conspiracy to make Covid seem worse than it is. The virus really isn’t a big deal.
So, get out there and mingle.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:19 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
4. Jimmyrock, for playing stupid in order to make a political point.


nope I still do not look silly. Your president said those things.

If you're auditioning for a spot on the list let me know which camp do you fall into, he was being sarcastic or media cherry picked?


Jimmyrockers list may wind up being bigger than Falcon's


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:20 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.


I'll take a shot at this.


It's a liberal conspiracy to scare the public into giving up their freedom and liberty.

Sound about right?


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:23 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.

I don't know why they fudge the numbers. I don't know why New York mandated this either.


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:26 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.


I'll take a shot at this.


It's a liberal conspiracy to scare the public into giving up their freedom and liberty.

Sound about right?

Your guess is as good as any other.


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:32 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

\:\) It's not a guess. It's rhetorical. ;\)


I don't agree that there is a deliberate, concerted effort to fudge the fatality numbers. Or any other numbers. People are dying bro. Of a sickness that is deadly real.

Every fuckin thing doesn't have to be politicized. Its rotting our country.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:38 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.

I don't know why they fudge the numbers. I don't know why New York mandated this either.


Thanks for responding.
So I have no idea what the motivation would be for inflating numbers and you don't either. Do you follow guidelines at all, wearing a mask and social distancing?


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 10:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Funky Low End
4. Jimmyrock, for playing stupid in order to make a political point.


nope I still do not look silly. Your president said those things.

If you're auditioning for a spot on the list let me know which camp do you fall into, he was being sarcastic or media cherry picked?


Jimmyrockers list may wind up being bigger than Falcon's


I don't know, so far the list remains at at 3. Funky Low End must still be wrestling with what opinion he should hold regarding what got you on the list


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 10:07 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
Says Dr. Morris. Gee thanks for the sound advice. Look at the facts. The numbers never added up both the infection rate and the fatality ratio are both way smaller numbers than predicted. <--- Maybe instead of giving advice on anything that you don't know about, try looking at facts. Ask yourself what prompted New York to call more than 3,000 deaths as COVID-19 when they weren't tested for it. Just ask yourself, or not.


58K. since March. all of this information is out there and easy to understand. if it helps, picture Dave Morris wearing scrubs as he explains it to you repeatedly


Webster
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.


I'll take a shot at this.


It's a liberal conspiracy to scare the public into giving up their freedom and liberty.

Sound about right?


Or this:


Trump says China wants him to lose his bid for re-election


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 12:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
But LD what would be the motivation for inflating death numbers? I ask for the 3rd time.

I don't know why they fudge the numbers. I don't know why New York mandated this either.


Obviously, New York did this so that more people would die, so that the number of fatalities would get worse, so that the liberal conspiracy around the world could continue.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 01:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Wish
I have no problem with that...but I do have a problem with posting debunked misinformation here.

Please take the debunked misinformation to the Political forum.

Thanks.


Do you have a list of approved facts we are allowed to post?


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 01:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Wish
I have no problem with that...but I do have a problem with posting debunked misinformation here.

Please take the debunked misinformation to the Political forum.

Thanks.


Do you have a list of approved facts we are allowed to post?


you dont need a list, just post the debunked misinformation in the Political forum...


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 02:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Wish
I have no problem with that...but I do have a problem with posting debunked misinformation here.

Please take the debunked misinformation to the Political forum.

Thanks.


Do you have a list of approved facts we are allowed to post?


you dont need a list, just post the debunked misinformation in the Political forum...


Would Fox present debunked medical advice to their viewers? Sounds sort of Deep Stateish


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Is unproven misinformation also considered debunked?

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

LD's link was opinion of two doctors who own a clinic. Where is the unproven misinformation you are talking about coming from?

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

A guitar pick factory in West Germany.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 03:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here is a pretty thorough article about the virus (SARS-CoV-2) and the disease (COVID-19). I won't reproduce it here, but it should be free to look at because The Atlantic is offering articles about the pandemic for free.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 04:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

About the numbers, this article says the following:

 Quote:

The rapid pace of new information creates the sense that we can accurately monitor the pandemic as it happens. But daily numbers tell a distorted story. As April wears on, case counts suggest that the pandemic is plateauing in parts of the U.S. But it’s hard to know for sure. As my colleagues Robinson Meyer and Alexis Madrigal have reported, 20 percent of Americans who are tested for the coronavirus are still getting positive results. This figure is higher than almost every other developed country and has held steady over time. It suggests that the U.S. is still mostly testing people who are very likely to be infected and is still missing the majority of cases. If so, cases could have leveled off because the U.S. has maxed out its ability to find infected people.

This concern complicates the government’s plan to start reopening the country after a “downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period.” If the case number is illusory, this criterion is meaningless. “I’d want to know that we’re doing enough testing to be confident that those numbers really are stabilizing,” says Dean, the University of Florida statistician. “I’m still not convinced we’re in a good place.”

When looking at case counts, remember this: Those numbers do not show how many people have been infected on any given day. They reflect the number of tests that were done (which is still insufficient), the lag in reporting results from those tests (which can be long), and the proportion of tests that are incorrectly negative (which seems high). Likewise, daily death counts do not offer a real-time glimpse at the virus’s toll. Because of delays in reporting, they tend to be lower on weekends.

Deaths are hard to tally in general, and the process differs among diseases. The CDC estimates that flu kills 24,000 to 62,000 Americans every year, a number that seems superficially similar to the 58,000 COVID-19 deaths thus far. That comparison is misleading. COVID-19 deaths are counted based either on a positive diagnostic test for the coronavirus or on clinical judgment. Flu deaths are estimated through a model that looks at hospitalizations and death certificates, and accounts for the possibility that many deaths are due to flu but aren’t coded as such. If flu deaths were counted like COVID-19 deaths, the number would be substantially lower. This doesn’t mean we’re overestimating the flu. It does mean we are probably underestimating COVID-19.

The means of gathering data always complicate the interpretation of those data. Consider the reports that the coronavirus can “reactivate” in recovered patients, or that people can become “reinfected.” This really means that patients are testing positive for the virus after having tested negative. But that might have nothing to do with the virus, and everything to do with the test. Diagnostic tests for COVID-19 produce a lot of false negatives, incorrectly telling 15 to 30 percent of infected people that they’re in the clear. And even if these tests were better, the viral levels of a recovering patient would eventually fall below their threshold of accuracy. When such patients are sequentially tested, some will toggle between negative and positive results, creating the appearance of reinfection.

False positives are a problem, too. Many companies and countries have pinned their hopes on antibody tests, which purportedly show whether someone has been infected by the coronavirus. One such test claims to correctly identify people with those antibodies 93.8 percent of the time. By contrast, it identifies phantom antibodies in 4.4 percent of people who don’t have them. That false-positive rate sounds acceptably low. It’s not. Let’s assume 5 percent of the U.S. has been infected so far. Among 1,000 people, the test would correctly identify antibodies in 47 of the 50 people who had them. But it would also wrongly spot antibodies in 42 of the 950 people without them. The number of true positives and false positives would be almost equal. In this scenario, if you were told you had coronavirus antibodies, your odds of actually having them would be little better than a coin toss.

Read: No testing, no treatment, no herd immunity, no easy way out

None of this means that all bets are off and the pandemic is unquantifiable. The case count might be wrong, but it’s almost certainly too low rather than too high, and it’s more likely off by a factor of 10 than 100. The numbers still matter; they’re just messy and hard to interpret, especially in the moment. On my phone, I can see weather patterns, the position of every plane in the sky, and the number of people currently reading this article, all in real time. But I cannot get the same immediate information about the pandemic. The numbers I see say as much about the tools researchers are using as the quantities they are measuring. “I think people underestimate how difficult it is to measure things,” Dean says. “For us who work in public health, measuring things is, like, 80 percent of the problem.”

If measuring the present is hard, predicting the future is even harder. The mathematical models that have guided the world’s pandemic responses have been often portrayed as crystal balls. That is not their purpose. They instead describe a range of possibilities, and help scientists and policy makers to simulate what might happen pending different courses of action. Models reveal many possible fates, and allow us to choose one. And while distant projections are necessarily blurry, the path ahead is not unknowable. “The long-term is like modeling the trajectory of a falling leaf, but the short-term is like modeling a falling bowling ball,” says Dylan Morris, an infectious-disease modeler at Princeton. Uncertainties about the year ahead shouldn’t cloud “how devastatingly and terrifyingly certain we can be” about the immediate consequences if the pandemic isn’t controlled, he adds.



I also thought the followng is a really, really important thing to bear in mind. I'm already starting to hear people say stuff about the threat being overexaggerated. Please think about this:

 Quote:
In the final second of December 31, 1999, clocks ticked into a new millennium, and … not much happened. The infamous Y2K bug, a quirk of computer code that was predicted to cause global chaos, did very little. Twenty years later, Y2K is almost synonymous with overreaction—a funny moment when humanity freaked out over nothing. But it wasn’t nothing. It actually was a serious problem, which never fully materialized because a lot of people worked very hard to prevent it. “There are two lessons one can learn from an averted disaster,” Tufekci says. “One is: That was exaggerated. The other is: That was close.”


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 04:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Also, this:

0---------------------------------------0

The coronavirus not only co-opts our cells, but exploits our cognitive biases. Humans construct stories to wrangle meaning from uncertainty and purpose from chaos. We crave simple narratives, but the pandemic offers none. The facile dichotomy between saving either lives or the economy belies the broad agreement between epidemiologists and economists that the U.S. shouldn’t reopen prematurely. The lionization of health-care workers and grocery-store employees ignores the risks they are being asked to shoulder and the protective equipment they aren’t being given. The rise of small anti-lockdown protests overlooks the fact that most Republicans and Democrats agree that social distancing should continue “for as long as is needed to curb the spread of coronavirus.”

And the desire to name an antagonist, be it the Chinese Communist Party or Donald Trump, disregards the many aspects of 21st-century life that made the pandemic possible: humanity’s relentless expansion into wild spaces; soaring levels of air travel; chronic underfunding of public health; a just-in-time economy that runs on fragile supply chains; health-care systems that yoke medical care to employment; social networks that rapidly spread misinformation; the devaluation of expertise; the marginalization of the elderly; and centuries of structural racism that impoverished the health of minorities and indigenous groups. It may be easier to believe that the coronavirus was deliberately unleashed than to accept the harsher truth that we built a world that was prone to it, but not ready for it.

In the classic hero’s journey—the archetypal plot structure of myths and movies—the protagonist reluctantly departs from normal life, enters the unknown, endures successive trials, and eventually returns home, having been transformed. If such a character exists in the coronavirus story, it is not an individual, but the entire modern world. The end of its journey and the nature of its final transformation will arise from our collective imagination and action. And they, like so much else about this moment, are still uncertain.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 04:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It seems like scare tactics are a sure fire way of funding without questioning. So trillions were spent by pushing there is a terrorist under your bed.
If strains of Viruses are the new thing to fear then under funding of public health health-care systems and medical care tied to employment need to be addressed, corrected and funded. And market it as a Military expenditure.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 06:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
It seems like scare tactics are a sure fire way of funding without questioning. So trillions were spent by pushing there is a terrorist under your bed.
If strains of Viruses are the new thing to fear then under funding of public health health-care systems and medical care tied to employment need to be addressed, corrected and funded. And market it as a Military expenditure .


THAT way, Trump can eventually redirect those funds towards fulfilling his Mexican Border Wall Election Campaign Promise.

Sounds about par for the course.

More typical bullsh!t dripping from the lips of Donald J. Trump:

"One way or the other, Mexico's going to pay for the wall. That's right."



Keep puffin' that chest out at foreign dignitaries/countries Mr. 'Tiny Hands'. I'm sure they're ALL cowering where they stand whenever you speak. . . . NOT!

. . Falcon


Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
04/30/20 08:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

more crap hitting the fan?

C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
04/30/20 10:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

107 year old recovers

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/02/20 04:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I wonder how long Dr. Anne Schuchat will remain in her job?

"But the agency has had a low profile during this pandemic, with White House officials controlling communications and leading most press briefings"

"The U.S. government was slow to understand how much coronavirus was spreading from Europe, which helped drive the acceleration of outbreaks across the nation, a top health official said Friday.

Limited testing and delayed travel alerts for areas outside China contributed to the jump in U.S. cases starting in late February, said Dr. Anne Schuchat, the No. 2 official at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“We clearly didn’t recognize the full importations that were happening,” Schuchat told The Associated Press.

The coronavirus was first reported late last year in China, the initial epicenter of the global pandemic. But the U.S. has since become the hardest-hit nation, with about a third of the world's reported cases and more than a quarter of the deaths.

The CDC on Friday published an article, authored by Schuchat, that looked back on the U.S. response, recapping some of the major decisions and events of the last few months. It suggests the nation’s top public health agency missed opportunities to slow the spread. Some public health experts saw it as important assessment by one of the nation's most respected public health doctors.

The CDC is responsible for the recognition, tracking and prevention of just such a disease. But the agency has had a low profile during this pandemic, with White House officials controlling communications and leading most press briefings.

“The degree to which CDC’s public presence has been so diminished ... is one of the most striking and frankly puzzling aspects of the federal government’s response,” said Jason Schwartz, assistant professor of health policy at the Yale School of Public Health."



Slow Government Response





C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/02/20 06:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://www.haystack.tv/v/russia-surveil...ails&utm_term=0

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/02/20 08:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Schools are schedule to re-open May 11th in this province of Quebec.

it's probably way too soon, and i bet most people will refuse to send their kids to school this early in this crisis.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/02/20 08:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I know that my kids wouldn't be going back. There's a reason why Quebec had the highest infection rates.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/02/20 08:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
I know that my kids wouldn't be going back. There's a reason why Quebec had the highest infection rates.

don't look at me, i did not vote for the present provincial government. lol


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 01:05 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Missouri is open as of Monday. Phase 1 restrictions.
The price of gas has gone up overnight and the highway looks like everyone just got out of jail.

Kansas City and St. Louis are still in shutdown until May 15.....but it looks like half of KC & St Louis are here at the lake.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 01:55 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

in historic Québec City tonight, it almost looked like a scene from a post-Apocalyptic movie.

i hope i'm wrong, but i think we're in for a very rough ride.


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 05:12 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-t...andemic-1501465

C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 05:17 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Doubtful we will open till first of June ..

Low numbers > in our County -- they hope to keep it that way ..

Amazon on line orders. Take out dinners and walks on the beach /trails == are fine. About the same for us, really .

Mainly miss the gym & swimming daily. \:\(


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 12:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"i hope i'm wrong, but i think we're in for a very rough ride."

I think you are right. I did not know you lived in Quebec.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 02:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Ya I thought moontan lived in Canada

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 03:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
Ya I thought moontan lived in Canada


Oooh, nice one


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 03:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i live very close to La Porte St-Jean.



Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 03:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
Ya I thought moontan lived in Canada


Oooh, nice one


Does he border on stupidity too?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/03/20 04:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What do you make this?

Reopening Risk


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 04:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yes he does.

BmC
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 04:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"What do you make this?

Reopening Risk"

The Wharton model. hmmmm, isn't that the school that Trump holds a degree from?


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 04:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I think it shows that nobody really has a grasp on how to deal with this.

Neither our “experts” nor our president, and a whole host of other supposed leaders.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/03/20 05:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
I think it shows that nobody really has a grasp on how to deal with this.

Neither our “experts” nor our president, and a whole host of other supposed leaders.

Not nobody. There are some countries that seem to have dealt with it well so far.
South Korea is one example. They went all in on testing and contact tracing and isolation very early. Seems to be working well.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/05/20 06:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

An interesting article from the Los Angeles Times about the form of the virus we are seeing now. Apparently, it mutated in February before it came here, and that is rendering some of the early research done on it less helpful, and may render some of the vaccines and treatments in development less efficacious.

0-------------------------------------------0

Scientists say a now-dominant strain of the coronavirus appears to be more contagious than original

By Ralph Vartabedian

May 5, 2020
4 AM


Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.

The 33-page report was posted Thursday on BioRxiv, a website that researchers use to share their work before it is peer reviewed, an effort to speed up collaborations with scientists working on COVID-19 vaccines or treatments. That research has been largely based on the genetic sequence of earlier strains and might not be effective against the new one.

The mutation identified in the new report affects the now infamous spikes on the exterior of the coronavirus, which allow it to enter human respiratory cells. The report’s authors said they felt an “urgent need for an early warning” so that vaccines and drugs under development around the world will be effective against the mutated strain.

Wherever the new strain appeared, it quickly infected far more people than the earlier strains that came out of Wuhan, China, and within weeks it was the only strain that was prevalent in some nations, according to the report. The new strain’s dominance over its predecessors demonstrates that it is more infectious, according to the report, though exactly why is not yet known.

The coronavirus, known to scientists as SARS-CoV-2, has infected more than 3.5 million people around the world and caused more than 250,000 COVID-19 deaths since its discovery late last year.

The report was based on a computational analysis of more than 6,000 coronavirus sequences from around the world, collected by the Global Initiative for Sharing All Influenza Data, a public-private organization in Germany. Time and again, the analysis found the new version was transitioning to become dominant.

The Los Alamos team, assisted by scientists at Duke University and the University of Sheffield in England, identified 14 mutations. Those mutations occurred among the nearly 30,000 base pairs of RNA that other scientists say make up the coronavirus’s genome. The report authors focused on a mutation called D614G, which is responsible for the change in the virus’ spikes.

“The story is worrying, as we see a mutated form of the virus very rapidly emerging, and over the month of March becoming the dominant pandemic form,” study leader Bette Korber, a computational biologist at Los Alamos, wrote on her Facebook page. “When viruses with this mutation enter a population, they rapidly begin to take over the local epidemic, thus they are more transmissible.”

While the Los Alamos report is highly technical and dispassionate, Korber expressed some deep personal feelings about the implications of the finding in her Facebook post.

“This is hard news,” wrote Korber, “but please don’t only be disheartened by it. Our team at LANL was able to document this mutation and its impact on transmission only because of a massive global effort of clinical people and experimental groups, who make new sequences of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) in their local communities available as quickly as they possibly can.”

Korber, a graduate of Cal State Long Beach who went on to earn a PhD in chemistry at Caltech, joined the lab in 1990 and focused much of her work on an HIV vaccine. In 2004, she won the Ernest Orlando Lawrence Award, the U.S. Department of Energy’s highest recognition for scientific achievement. She contributed a portion of the financial prize to help establish an orphanage for young AIDS victims in South Africa.

The report contains regional breakdowns of when the new strain of virus first emerged and how long it took to become dominant.

Italy was one of the first countries to see the new virus in the last week of February, almost at the same time that the original strain appeared. Washington was among the first states to get hit with the original strain in late February, but by March 15 the mutated strain dominated. New York was hit by the original virus around March 15, but within days the mutant strain took over. The team did not report results for California.

Scientists at major organizations working on a vaccine or drugs have told The Times that they are pinning their hopes on initial evidence that the virus is stable and not likely to mutate the way influenza virus does, requiring a new vaccine every year. The Los Alamos report could upend that assumption.

If the pandemic fails to wane seasonally as the weather warms, the study warns, the virus could undergo further mutations even as research organizations prepare the first medical treatments and vaccines. Without getting on top of the risk now, the effectiveness of vaccines could be limited. Some of the compounds in development are supposed to latch onto the spike or interrupt its action. If they were designed based on the original version of the spike, they might not be effective against the new coronavirus strain, the study’s authors warned.

“We cannot afford to be blindsided as we move vaccines and antibodies into clinical testing,” Korber wrote on Facebook. “Please be encouraged by knowing the global scientific community is on this, and we are cooperating with each other in ways I have never seen … in my 30 years as a scientist.”

David Montefiori, a Duke University scientist who worked on the report said it is the first to document a mutation in the coronavirus that appears to make it more infectious.

Although the researchers don’t yet know the details about how the mutated spike behaves inside the body, it’s clearly doing something that gives it an evolutionary advantage over its predecessor and is fueling its rapid spread. One scientist called it a “classic case of Darwinian evolution.”

“D614G is increasing in frequency at an alarming rate, indicating a fitness advantage relative to the original Wuhan strain that enables more rapid spread,” the study said.

Still unknown is whether this mutant virus could account for regional variations in how hard COVID-19 is hitting different parts of the world.

In the United States, doctors had begun to independently question whether new strains of the virus could account for the differences in how it has infected, sickened and killed people, said Alan Wu, a UC San Francisco professor who runs the clinical chemistry and toxicology laboratories at San Francisco General Hospital.

Medical experts have speculated in recent weeks that they were seeing at least two strains of the virus in the U.S., one prevalent on the East Coast and another on the West Coast, according to Wu.

“We are looking to identify the mutation,” he said, noting that his hospital has had only a few deaths out of the hundreds of cases it has treated, which is “quite a different story than we are hearing from New York.”

The Los Alamos study does not indicate that the new version of the virus is more lethal than the original. People infected with the mutated strain appear to have higher viral loads. But the study’s authors from the University of Sheffield found that among a local sample of 447 patients, hospitalization rates were about the same for people infected with either virus version.

Even if the new strain is no more dangerous than the others, it could still complicate efforts to bring the pandemic under control. That would be an issue if the mutation makes the virus so different from earlier strains that people who have immunity to them would not be immune to the new version.

If that is indeed the case, it could make “individuals susceptible to a second infection,” the study authors wrote.

It’s possible that the mutation changes the spike in some way that helps the virus evade the immune system, said Montefiori, who has worked on an HIV vaccine for 30 years. “It is hypothetical. We are looking at it very hard.”


Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/05/20 07:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We are so fucked.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/05/20 07:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

why spend fortunes on armament to kill each others when viruses can do it for free, without being asked?

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/05/20 07:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This is from The New York Times, just now.

0---------------------------------------------0

The White House is considering winding down the coronavirus task force in the coming weeks.

Trump administration officials are telling members and staff of the coronavirus task force that the White House plans to wind down the operation in coming weeks despite growing evidence that the crisis is raging on, Maggie Haberman reports.

It is not clear whether any other group might replace the task force. But its gradual demise, which officials said might never be formally announced, would only intensify the questions about whether the administration is adequately organized to address the complex, life-and-death decisions related to the virus and giving adequate voice to scientists and public health experts in making policy.

While the task force’s advice has sometimes been swept aside by Mr. Trump and its recommendations for criteria on reopening for business defied by a number of states, it has served as the closest thing the White House has for running a centralized response to the pandemic.

A top adviser to Vice President Mike Pence who has helped oversee the task force, Olivia Troye, has told senior officials involved in the task force to expect the group to wind down within weeks, a notice echoed by other top White House officials. While the task force met Tuesday at the White House, Monday’s meeting was canceled, and a Saturday session, a staple of recent months, was never held.

Mr. Trump has stopped linking his news briefings on the virus to the task force’s meetings and no longer routinely arrays task force members around him in his public appearances.

While the rate of new infections and deaths has been falling in New York, it has continued to rise in much of the rest of the country, and a number of projections suggest that deaths will remain at elevated levels for months to come and could increase as states ease their stay-at-home orders. One document circulating inside the administration raised the possibility of a rise in coronavirus infections and deaths this month, reaching about 3,000 daily deaths on June 1 — nearly double the current level.

A senior administration official, speaking on the condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal deliberations, said the task force will be winding down as the White House moves toward Phase One of Mr. Trump’s plan to “open up” the country. The focus now will be on therapeutics, vaccine development and testing, the official said.

A White House spokeswoman declined to comment.

A group led by Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, has been functioning as something of a shadow task force. That group is likely to continue working; among other issues, Mr. Kushner is said to be discussing a new role for someone to oversee development of therapeutic treatments.

From its start in January, the task force has been rived with divisions. The secretary of health and human services, Alex M. Azar II, has been criticized for excluding key administration officials and was ousted as the leader of the group, replaced by Mr. Pence in late February. Mr. Trump took over its public briefings, often turning them into 90-minute-to-two-hour moments to air grievances, praise his own handling of the crisis and offer up his own prescriptions.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/05/20 07:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"therapeutic treatments" witches brews, elixirs, magic potions and tinctures.

I think they're a little overwhelmed.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/05/20 07:52 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I find this just ... absolutely shocking for a whole number of reasons.

From the Washington Post, just now.

0-----------------------------------------------------0

Kushner coronavirus effort said to be hampered by inexperienced volunteers
By
Yasmeen Abutaleb and
Ashley Parker

May 5, 2020 at 12:12 p.m. EDT


The coronavirus response being spearheaded by President Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has relied in part on volunteers from consulting and private equity firms with little expertise in the tasks to which they were assigned, exacerbating chronic problems in obtaining supplies for hospitals and other needs, according to numerous government officials and a volunteer involved in the effort.

About two dozen employees from Boston Consulting Group, Insight, McKinsey and other firms have volunteered their time — some on paid vacation leave from their jobs and others without pay — to aid the Trump administration’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, according to administration officials and others familiar with the arrangement.

Although some of the volunteers have relevant backgrounds and experience, many others were poorly matched with the jobs they were assigned, including those given the task of securing personal protective equipment, or PPE, for hospitals nationwide, according to a complaint filed last month with the House Oversight Committee.

The complaint, obtained by The Washington Post, was submitted by a volunteer who has since left the group and who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution from the administration. Key elements of the complaint were confirmed by six administration officials and one outside adviser to the effort, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

A spokeswoman for the oversight panel declined to comment.

The document alleges that the team responsible for PPE had little success in helping the government secure such equipment, in part because none of the team’s members had significant experience in health care, procurement or supply-chain operations. In addition, none of the volunteers had existing relationships with manufacturers or a clear understanding of customs requirements or Food and Drug Administration rules, according to the complaint and two senior administration officials.

“Americans are facing a crisis of tragic proportions and there is an urgent need for an effective, efficient and bold response,” reads the complaint, which was sent to the committee on April 8. “From my few weeks as a volunteer, I believe we are falling short. I am writing to alert my representatives of these challenges and to ask that they do everything possible to help front-line health-care workers and other Americans in need.”

Supply-chain volunteers were instructed to fast-track protective equipment leads from “VIPs,” including conservative journalists friendly to the White House, according to the complaint and one senior administration official.

“Fox & Friends” host Brian Kilmeade, for example, called two people he knew in the administration to pass along a lead about protective equipment in an effort to be helpful, according to two people familiar with the outreach. Fox News Channel host Jeanine Pirro also repeatedly lobbied the administration for a specific New York hospital to receive a large quantity of masks, one of the people said.

Kilmeade and Pirro said they were not aware that their tips were being prioritized, a Fox News spokeswoman said.

The volunteer group tasked with securing protective equipment is part of a broader coronavirus team set up by Kushner that spans the White House, the Department of Health and Human Services, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Much of the effort is run out of office space at FEMA headquarters.

Kushner and other key administration officials praised the volunteers’ efforts, which they said have helped the administration’s virus response.

“The bottom line is that this program sourced tens of millions of masks and essential PPE in record time and Americans who needed ventilators received ventilators,” Kushner said in a statement. “These volunteers are true patriots.”

But some government officials have expressed alarm at the presence of the volunteers, saying that their role in the response is unclear and that they have needed guidance on basic questions.

Health experts said procuring personal protective equipment is a complex job that requires expertise in the different types of equipment hospitals need, experience dealing with manufacturers and an understanding of which types of masks, for instance, have FDA approval.

“That’s the danger — there may be decisions being made that are not fully informed and that’s going to lead to downstream effects on the response,” said Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security and an infectious-disease physician. “The people that are volunteering, they are donating their time and we have to be grateful for that, but whoever is supervising them needs to match their skills with what the needs are.”

Even as the volunteer group struggled to procure protective equipment, about 30 percent of “key supplies,” including masks, in the national stockpile of emergency medical equipment went toward standing up a separate Kushner-led effort to establish drive-through testing sites nationwide, according to a March internal planning document obtained by The Post and confirmed by one current and one former administration official. Kushner had originally promised thousands of testing sites, but only 78 materialized; the stockpile was used to supply 44 of those over five to 10 days, the document said.

One White House official denied that a third of the stockpile went to Kushner’s initiative, but declined to provide details.

The team of volunteers focused on PPE had trouble developing manufacturer relationships and making inroads with brokers, in part because they were using personal email accounts, rather than official government email addresses, the House Oversight Committee complaint states. Three senior administration officials confirmed the volunteers’ use of personal email addresses.

In addition to the already challenging circumstances, the complaint also says that on some of the teams, “minimal attempts at social distancing are taken.”

Jordan Libowitz, a spokesman for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, said that the volunteers should be classified as “special government employees” and that the arrangement raises myriad concerns.

“This is the problem with operating off the books,” he said. “We just don’t know if they’re following the law or not.”

The volunteers were told to preserve and share a copy of all of their official emails, to comply with the Federal Records Act, according to the volunteer and administration officials. But Libowitz said that “by using private email accounts, we have no assurances that their emails are being preserved. . . . This doesn’t prove anything nefarious is going on, but if something nefarious was going on, this is how they would do it.”

Two senior administration officials disputed a number of the concerns outlined in the complaint. They said that the volunteers did not have trouble vetting leads or getting responses from brokers or companies, and that many of the volunteers had relevant backgrounds and experience. The officials added that it is difficult to know whether the volunteers received leads on protective equipment that resulted in procurement because nongovernment employees did not have final decision or purchasing authority.

The officials also said they had not heard of any sort of “VIP” treatment prioritizing some leads over others.

“I believe the volunteers are competent, hard working and intelligent, but we represent a smaller procurement team than at most midsized companies despite the magnitude of the crisis,” the complaint says. “I believe America deserves a larger, better-funded response. The team generally works 12+ hour days, seven days per week, but frankly has little to show for it.”

Kushner’s team is made up of private industry volunteers as well as allies in government, including Brad Smith, director of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation, and Adam Boehler, a former HHS official who was brought in to assist with the coronavirus response, as well as private industry executives.

Some of the volunteers were asked to create models projecting how much protective equipment the government would need to address the crisis, while others worked to project potential drug shortages that hospitals could face, according to four people familiar with the effort.

But administration officials deemed some of the models “too catastrophic,” a person familiar with the situation said. The administration ultimately decided to rely primarily on a model created by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington that has had some of the most optimistic projections of cases and deaths.

Those directly involved in Kushner’s effort were quick to praise the volunteers, stressing that the team members — many of whom relocated to Washington — upended their lives to try to help the administration manage the deadly pandemic.

“In the face of this unprecedented crisis, these volunteers dropped everything to help our country,” Boehler said in a statement. “This is not a partisan issue, this is an American one, and I am proud of these patriots.”

Navy Rear Adm. John Polowczyk, who is heading FEMA’s supply chain task force, was similarly effusive about the volunteers’ efforts. The initial mission of the supply-chain task force was to “find more product around the globe to buy time to increase domestic production,” he said in a statement, and the volunteer team was critical in that effort.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/05/20 09:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Kushner is a conman, just like his father in law, and father. These people are looking to gain personally off of everything they do. Perhaps no credible person, organization wants to be involved with these grifters. Either way, they are running your country into the ground. If they disband the pandemic team and leave the country to fend for itself, you just might see that 2.2 million dead count materialize. There needs to be a serious inquiry into all this, and more once this cocksucker is removed from office. Heads need to roll.

Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/06/20 03:06 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

flatcat, why would you be shocked by anything from Donny's administration? It has been corrupt and incompetent from day one. The global pandemic has exposed the current US administration for what it has always been. Anyone who maintains allegiance to this corrupt administration will soon feel the centrifugal pull of everything going down the drain.

C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/06/20 03:36 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

A bit unbelieving that we live on this Coastal spot ..

Not much different for us. Everyday the same still ..... Retired :: so we drive the same > under 50 miles a month -- the two restaurants we have frequented for 30 years -- have take out / or sit at a safe distance on the patio .... & the beach is open everyday ...

Whats not in stock at the grocery --seems to be order-able at Amazon ;\)


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/06/20 03:37 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

flatcat, why would you be shocked by anything from Donny's administration? It has been corrupt and incompetent from day one. The global pandemic has exposed the current US administration for what it has always been. Anyone who maintains allegiance to this corrupt administration will soon feel the centrifugal pull of everything going down the drain.

The USA has been developing and relying on systems of management for at least twenty decades. Donny's son-in-law pretends that he knows better than all the others who have gone before him about how to deal with normal and exceptional situations, because, of course, he knows better than all the others how to deal with situations that he has no experience dealing with.

Donny promised that he knew best about how to deal with anything that challenged the USA, and now it's becoming evident that his family has no idea how to solve any problem. The best they can do is to hope that whatever they do doesn't hurt their own prurient interests. If everything continues in the way Donny intends then it will be difficult to distinguish a difference between the USA and Putin's Russia. Oligarchs are beginning to rule in the USA. To quote Donny, "Let's see what happens."


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/06/20 04:13 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/06/20 06:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 12:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

From the Washington Post. I was wondering about this yesterday when I went to the store and paid more than I normally do.


April saw the sharpest increase in grocery store prices in nearly 50 years
Even as the consumer price index dips overall, Americans are seeing record hikes in the prices of meats, vegetables and cereals


By Laura Reiley
May 12, 2020 at 4:44 p.m. EDT


Grocery prices showed their biggest monthly increase in nearly 50 years last month, led by rising prices for meat and eggs, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Tuesday.

U.S. consumers paid 4.3 percent more in April for meats, poultry, fish and eggs, 1.5 percent more for fruits and vegetables, and 2.9 percent more for cereals and bakery products, the Labor Department said.

Overall, consumers paid 2.6 percent more in April for groceries, the largest one-month jump since February 1974.

The jump in food prices came in a month when more than 20 million Americans lost their jobs, driving 1 in 5 households into food insecurity.

The increase in food prices was in marked contrast to a broader decline in the basket of goods that makes up the U.S. consumer price index, which fell 0.8 percent in April, the largest single-month decline since 2008.

The hike in cereal and bakery products was the steepest single-month increase on record, which goes back to 1919, according to Geri Henchy, director of nutrition policy for the Food Research & Action Center, a nonprofit organization working to eradicate poverty-related hunger and undernutrition.

She attributes the inflated prices to two things: a shift in where consumers are purchasing their food, and supply chain disruptions due to covid-19 outbreaks in food production facilities as well as slowdowns related to social distancing and sheltering in place.

“It’s a tipping point for people who are already really struggling with resources.” she said. “Their budgets are taxed and now add increases in the price of food. There’s been a big increase in food insecurity, which is twice as bad for people of color and families with young children. People can’t go on with those lowered resources forever.”

Food at home price increases normally lag behind those of restaurants and food service, according to David Henkes, a senior principal at food industry research firm Technomic. He says this was not the case this time because of the short-term shock to the supply chain delivered by the mass shutdown of restaurants and food service companies, which reduced demand by 90 percent.

“I do think this will probably continue for several months,” Henkes says. “There are production issues in some parts of the food industry, and it’s hard to realign the supply chain overnight. At the same time, each of these manufacturers and distributors needs to figure out how to start re-servicing restaurants and other food service establishments as they start to come back online, all of which will have an impact on supply, demand and ultimately pricing.”

Henchy’s FRAC is calling on the administration to nearly double the minimum SNAP benefit from $16 to $30 per month and increase the maximum SNAP benefit by 15 percent. It is also calling for a suspension of all SNAP administrative rules that would weaken or terminate benefits.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 07:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

A report from the investigative team at Rolling Stone. There is some scary stuff in here.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/po...isaster-995930/

It's a story about failed leadership. It's not that one person can or could "save" us. It is that one person has the authority and ability to marshal all the resources of the country in ways that others cannot. And that one person is apparently absolutely incapable of doing so.

This, to me, was the most eye-opening quote of many in this article:

 Quote:
Academic research from Imperial College in London, modeling the U.S. response, estimates that up to 90 percent of COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented had the U.S. moved to shut down by March 2nd.


To make that more specific: as of today, up to 90% is 74,228. That would be us having a current death total of 8,247 people instead of 82,476 and counting. Even reducing that 90% ... that's a lot of deaths that were needless.

0------------------------------------------0

The Four Men Responsible For America’s COVID-19 Test Disaster

The White House’s inability to track the disease as it spread across the nation crippled the government’s response and led to the worst disaster this country has faced in nearly a century

By Tim Dickinson
May 10, 2020 8:00AM ET


Dr. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control, flanked Donald Trump at the podium in the White House briefing room. It was February 29th, the day of the first reported U.S. death from the coronavirus, and the president fielded an urgent question: “How should Americans prepare for this virus?” a reporter asked. “Should they go on with their daily lives? Change their routine? What should they do?”

In that moment, America was flying blind into a pandemic; the virus was on the loose, and nobody quite knew where. The lives of tens of thousands hinged on the advice about to be delivered by the president and his top public-health advisers. Trump began: “Well, I hope they don’t change their routine,” before he trailed off, and, quite uncharacteristically, called on an expert to finish the response. “Bob?” he said. “Do you want to answer that?”

A tall man, with a tan, freckled head, and a snow-white chinstrap beard, Redfield stepped to the podium. “The risk at this time is low,” Redfield told the country. “The American public needs to go on with their normal lives.”

This reassurance came at precisely, and tragically, the wrong time. With a different answer, much of the human devastation that was about to unfold in the United States would have been avoidable. Academic research from Imperial College in London, modeling the U.S. response, estimates that up to 90 percent of COVID-19 deaths could have been prevented had the U.S. moved to shut down by March 2nd. Instead, administration leaders dragged their feet for another two weeks, as the virus continued a silent, exponential assault. By early May, more than 75,000 Americans were dead.

Even as he spoke, Redfield knew the country should be taking a different course. The Coronavirus Task Force had resolved to present the president with a plan for mitigation efforts, like school and business closures, on February 24th, but reportedly reversed course after Trump exploded about the economic fallout. Instead, the CDC director continued touting “aggressive containment” to Congress on February 27th. Experts tell Rolling Stone that ship had sailed when the virus made the leap from infected travelers into the general public. “If you’ve got a community spreading respiratory virus, it’s not going to be containable,” says Dr. Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security. “You have to shift to mitigation right away.”

Patty Murray is the ranking member of the Senate’s top health committee, and represents Washington state, the nation’s first coronavirus hot spot. She blames the administration for a delay that “overwhelmed the health care system and resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.” And she singles out Redfield, in particular, for “dereliction of duty.”

Despite months of alarms that the coronavirus was lurking at our doorstep, the Trump administration failed to mount an urgent response until the nation was engulfed and overwhelmed by the pandemic.

“We had ample notice to get our country ready,” says Ron Klain, who served as President Obama’s Ebola czar, and lists the rolling out of testing, securing protective equipment, and building up hospital capacity as necessary preventative steps. “We spent all of January and February doing none of those things, and as a result, when this disease really exploded in March, we weren’t prepared.”

The government leaders who failed to safeguard the nation are CDC Director Redfield; FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn; Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar; and of course, President Trump. Together, these men had the power to change the direction of this pandemic, to lessen its impact on the economy, and constrain the death toll from COVID-19. Each failed, in a series of errors and mismanagement that grew into a singular catastrophe — or as Jared Kushner described it on Fox & Friends, “a great success story.”

Defeating an invisible enemy like the coronavirus requires working diagnostics. But when the CDC’s original test kit failed, there was no Plan B. The nation’s private-sector biomedical establishment is world-class, but the administration kept these resources cordoned behind red tape as the CDC foundered. Precious weeks slipped by — amid infighting, ass covering, and wasted effort — and the virus slipped through the nation’s crippled surveillance apparatus, taking root in hot spots across the country, and in particular, New York City.

The mismanagement cost lives. With adequate testing from the beginning, says Dr. Howard Forman, a Yale professor of public-health policy, “we would have been able to stop the spread of this virus in its tracks the way that many other nations have.” Instead, says Sen. Murray, the administration’s response was “wait until it’s too late, and then try and contain one of the most aggressive viruses that we’ve ever seen.”

Blind to the virus’s penetration and unable to target mitigation where it was needed, the administration and state governors had to resort to the blunt instrument of shuttering the economy, says Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute. And the lack of testing kept us in limbo. “Our economy is shut down because we still do not have adequate testing,” Jha says. “We have been woefully behind from the beginning of this pandemic.”

If the president’s deputies made trillion-dollar mistakes, accountability for the pandemic response lies with Trump, who waived off months of harrowing intelligence briefings, choosing to treat the coronavirus as a crisis in public relations, rather than a public-health emergency. Having staked his re-election on a strong economy, Trump downplayed the virus.

To the horror of public-health experts, America remains rudderless in the crisis. Obama’s CDC director, Tom Frieden, says “you can look back with 20/20 hindsight on lots of things.” But even months into the response — and despite Vice President Mike Pence nominally at the helm of the Coronavirus Task Force — Frieden says he can’t discern who is actually in charge of the federal response, “and that’s dangerous.”

The coronavirus would be a devilish test of any president’s leadership, but Trump has failed beyond measure. And the errors are metastasizing. “The failed coronavirus response is not a story of mistakes that were made and have now been fixed,” Klain says. “It’s the story of mistakes that continue to cost lives.”

THE ZEALOT

The front-line agency built to respond to a pandemic, the CDC, was placed in unreliable hands. Dr. Robert Redfield is a right-wing darling with a checkered scientific past. His 2018 nomination was a triumph for the Christian right, a coup in particular for evangelical activists Shepherd and Anita Smith, who have been instrumental in driving a global AIDS strategy centered on abstinence.

Redfield’s tight-knit relationship with the Smiths goes back at least three decades, beginning when Shepherd Smith recruited him to join the board of his religious nonprofit, Americans for a Sound AIDS/HIV Policy (ASAP). The Smiths made their views plain in the 1990 book Christians in the Age of AIDS, which argued HIV infection resulted from “people’s sinfulness,” and described AIDS as a consequence for those who “violate God’s laws.” Redfield, a devout Catholic who was then a prominent HIV researcher in the Army, wrote the introduction, calling for the rejection of “false prophets who preach the quick-fix strategies of condoms and free needles.”

Redfield was a rising star at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, whose name had been floated as a candidate for surgeon general. But the late 1980s were benighted times in the AIDS epidemic, and Redfield championed discriminatory policies that he defended as “good medicine” — including quarantining of HIV-positive soldiers in a segregated barracks. These soldiers were routinely given dishonorable discharges after superiors rooted out evidence of homosexuality, and left to suffer the course of their devastating disease without health insurance. “It was dark,” remembers Laurie Garrett, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of The Coming Plague, who reported on Redfield’s actions. “It was the opposite of compassion.”

Redfield’s Army career derailed after he was accused of “sloppy or, possibly, deceptive” research for touting a trial HIV therapy that later proved useless. An investigation found no wrongdoing, but called out his “inappropriately close” relationship with Shepherd Smith, who also hyped the drug. Redfield insisted there was “no basis for any of the allegations,” but the scandal spurred his departure to a research lab at the University of Maryland.

Still, Redfield’s résumé — religious-right bona fides, a military background, and a knack for ingratiating himself with powerful people — primed his return to government. “Over the years, there have been several attempts to push him into powerful slots within Republican administrations,” says Garrett. “I don’t think most of his promoters have ever been particularly interested in the science.”

When his CDC appointment was announced in March 2018, Sen. Murray warned of Redfield’s “pattern of ethically and morally questionable behavior,” as well as his “lack of public-health expertise,” and urged Trump to “reconsider.” But the CDC post does not require Senate approval. Redfield sought to reassure CDC staff that his views had modernized, and that he now embraced condoms to slow HIV infection. He insisted at an all-hands meeting, “I’ve never been an abstinence-only person.” In point of fact, Redfield co-authored a 1987 textbook, AIDS & Young People, that preached abstinence until marriage, writing that “medicine and morality tell us the same thing.” It warned, in all caps, against the notion of safe sex: “IF YOU ENGAGE IN CLOSE SEXUAL CONDUCT, YOU ARE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH YOUR LIFE.”

THE INSIDER

The CDC reports to the Department of Health and Human Services, led by Alex Azar, a former executive for the pharmaceutical giant Eli Lilly who gained infamy, in his five-year tenure, by doubling the price of insulin.

Azar is a creature of the GOP establishment: He cut his teeth as a Supreme Court clerk to Antonin Scalia, worked with Brett Kavanaugh on the Clinton-Whitewater investigation under special counsel Ken Starr, and served as a deputy HHS administrator in the George W. Bush era, before becoming Eli Lilly’s top lobbyist. Azar, 52, is the type of corporate leader Republicans have long touted as capable of driving efficiencies in the unwieldy federal bureaucracy. Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell praised Azar’s nomination in 2017, insisting, “Alex brings a wealth of private-sector knowledge that will prepare him well for this crucial role.”

Azar sought to shrink the CDC, an agency that has been on the chopping block throughout the Trump administration. In HHS’s most recent budget proposal — unveiled this past February, 10 days after the World Health Organization declared a global emergency over the coronavirus — Azar sought an $85 million cut to the CDC’s Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases program and a $25 million cut to Public Health Preparedness and Response. Azar defended the budget at the time as making “difficult, prudent choices.”

The Trump administration had also hollowed out the CDC’s China presence, slashing staff from 47 to barely a dozen. These cuts were part of a broad-reaching drawdown of America’s disease preparedness, including Trump’s decision to disband the National Security Counsel’s pandemic-response team. In late 2018, Azar’s HHS rejected a proposal, solicited by the Obama administration, to buy a machine capable of churning out 1.5 million N95 respirators a day, for use in a pandemic.

Despite this austerity crusade, the CDC’s initial response to the outbreak was by the book. On January 3rd, Redfield spoke with Chinese colleagues about a mysterious viral outbreak causing a rash of pneumonia cases in Wuhan, and immediately informed Azar. On January 11th, the Chinese published the genetic sequence of the novel coronavirus, and the CDC began creating a diagnostic test.

The CDC wasn’t alone in this effort. Research labs across the country were racing to come up with their own assays. “Every molecular virologist I knew had a test before the CDC did,” says Dr. Donald Milton, who runs the Public Health Aerobiology, Virology, and Exhaled Biomarker Laboratory at the University of Maryland. By January 16th, a German company had produced a reliable diagnostic that WHO would adopt as its own. Five days later, the CDC announced it had a working test — which it used to diagnose the first known U.S. coronavirus patient, a Wuhan traveler near Seattle.

Rick Bright directed HHS’s Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority until his ouster in April. In a whistleblower complaint, he reveals he warned Azar on January 23rd that the virus could already be spreading in the U.S. but “we just don’t have the tests to know one way or the other.” Bright accuses HHS leadership of “a lax and dismissive attitude” toward the coronavirus, and singles out Azar for “downplaying this catastrophic threat.”

Hailing from the establishment wing of the GOP, Azar didn’t have much juice with Trump. He did not reach the president to discuss the outbreak until January 18th. Another 10 days would pass before the White House created a Coronavirus Task Force, with Azar at the helm. Two days later, Azar declared a public-health emergency.

This emergency declaration had the confounding effect of slowing the testing rollout. Normally, private and university labs can make their own diagnostic tests without approval by the Food and Drug Administration. But these labs become “paradoxically more regulated during an emergency,” says Adalja, the Johns Hopkins doctor. Azar had activated strict regulations that made the FDA the gatekeeper for coronavirus-test approval. But there was a big problem: The gate operator was new on the job, and painfully slow to pull the lever.

UNREADY AT THE FDA

Stephen Hahn had been on the job at the FDA for barely a month. A bald, 60-year-old of modest height, Hahn has an impeccable résumé — he served as chief medical executive at the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center — but he had no experience running a government agency.

The need to engage the private sector for coronavirus testing was not only foreseeable, it was foreseen — by Trump’s first FDA commissioner, Scott Gottlieb. In a January 28th Wall Street Journal article, “Act Now to Prevent an American Epidemic,” Gottlieb warned that the “CDC will struggle to keep up with the volume of screening.” He said the government must begin “working with private industry to develop easy-to-use, rapid diagnostic tests.”

If Hahn read his predecessor’s call to action, he did not act on it. Hahn did not lack authority; the FDA has broad discretion to relax the rules that were locked into place with Azar’s declaration. But Azar had, unaccountably, not included Hahn on the Coronavirus Task Force. By default, private test developers were now required to obtain an “emergency-use authorization” from the FDA to deploy COVID-19 testing. “Companies couldn’t make their own lab-developed tests,” Adalja says, “so you had Quest and LabCorp and the big-university labs on the sidelines.”

FDA officials would not speak on the record, but in extended background interviews, they defended the FDA’s role in regulating lab tests as both righteous and desirable. They described an agency whose doors were always open to private companies that wanted to develop testing, and denied that Hahn’s inexperience hobbled the FDA’s response. Hahn did not agree to be interviewed, but said in a statement that the FDA was engaged “at the earliest stages of the coronavirus outbreak and at no point was FDA excluded. FDA and HHS have been hand in hand in our aggressive response.”

Yet the failure to activate the private sector was the key difference between the U.S. response to the coronavirus and that of South Korea, which first detected the virus in its country at the same time the U.S. did. “Instead of going through regulatory hijinks,” says Milton, the University of Maryland virologist, South Korea “turned their biomedical industry loose, and they started producing lots of tests right away.” With this massive rollout — including drive-through testing clinics for patients with mild symptoms — South Korea got in front of its outbreak. At the beginning of May, South Korea had recorded fewer than 11,000 cases and 250 COVID-19 deaths. The United States, Milton insists, missed the window to activate its biomedical might to achieve the same result. “We have that capability,” he says. “We could have done that.”

THE BLACK-SWAN EVENT

With the private sector offline, the stakes for the CDC test could not have been higher. The CDC had a peerless reputation. Despite its underfunding, it was considered a crown jewel of public-health agencies.

“Starting with the CDC test makes perfectly good sense,” says Kathleen Sebelius, who served as HHS secretary in the Obama administration. The CDC performed ably during the H1N1 outbreak on her watch. “Within two weeks of knowing what H1N1 looked like,” she recalls, “the CDC had millions of test kits to push out to the states and around the world.” There was little reason to think that the CDC could not perform the same in this crisis.

The CDC — itself subject to FDA regulation — obtained emergency approval of its own test on February 4th and began shipping out kits, manufactured in its own laboratories, to roughly 100 public-health labs across the country. The CDC test was complex, including two steps that tested for genetic markers of the novel coronavirus, and a third meant to rule out other known coronaviruses. But when state labs began testing, the unthinkable happened: The third prong failed, providing inconclusive results.

Scott Becker is the executive director of the Association of Public Health Laboratories, the umbrella group that represents these labs and helps them interface with the CDC. On the morning of February 8th, a Saturday, his cellphone began blowing up with messages from member labs. “I started to see this string of the problems, and I thought, ‘Oh, my God, this can’t be happening,’” Becker says. “To me, it was the same moment of ‘Where were you on 9/11?’ because of the enormity of what we knew was coming. If this test had a problem, we were weeks behind.” He was stung by the realization that “we were not going to be able to contain this.”

For the CDC, and the public labs that depend on its tests, this was a black-swan event on top of a global pandemic. An incredibly infectious respiratory virus was poised for a mass outbreak, and the surveillance system needed to contain it was broken. It was as if enemy ballistic missiles were incoming and NORAD had gone offline.

The crisis was acute: The U.S. had a single test for the coronavirus, and it could only be run at the CDC’s Atlanta headquarters, as well as a handful of state labs that had been able to make assay work. This bottleneck would require extreme rationing of tests, to patients who’d traveled to foreign hot spots and tested negative for other diseases. The criteria were so strict that the CDC allegedly refused a test to a nurse who fell ill after treating COVID patients.

There was another, well-functioning test on the global market, of course. At the same time the CDC was sending its flawed tests to U.S. labs, WHO was distributing 250,000 of its test kits to laboratories across the world. Sebelius, Obama’s HHS secretary, insists that Azar should have recognized the bottleneck at the CDC and bypassed the agency until it sorted out its failed test. “It’s a real problem that we didn’t immediately pivot to the WHO test, which we know was working very well,” Sebelius says. “We could have purchased a lot of those and pushed them out.” HHS, working with the FDA, should also have taken that moment to call in the private-sector cavalry. “We could have opened up the private-lab capacity,” she says. “And we didn’t do any of that.”

One might excuse Alex Azar for his failure to manage up. At the time the CDC tests began to fail, Trump was in the throes of denial, praising President Xi of China on Twitter — “He is strong, sharp and powerfully focused on leading the counterattack on the Coronavirus” — and predicting the disease “goes away in April with the heat.”

But Azar proved equally hapless at managing down. Instead of engineering a workaround to the unreliable CDC test, or leaning on his private-sector connections to jump-start commercial testing, Azar insisted that the original kit be fixed. He reportedly rejected use of the WHO test, out of concern that the test was unreliable. (CDC and HHS officials also underscored that the WHO test, itself, would have had to go through the sticky wicket of FDA regulation.)

The impulse at Redfield’s CDC was to slow down, Becker says, to guard against producing a second, flawed batch of test kits. Hahn’s FDA, meanwhile, was focused on its role as the CDC’s regulator, intent on rooting out the flaw in the original test it had approved. The agencies were soon enmeshed in a bureaucratic struggle so toxic that an FDA diagnostic expert sent in to troubleshoot was briefly locked out of CDC facilities. (HHS blames a scheduling conflict.)

In interviews with Rolling Stone, FDA officials accused the CDC of providing incomplete and misleading information, of downplaying the number of public labs that were unable to run the test, and of signaling to the FDA that the CDC would be able to fix the problem on its own. A CDC representative, in turn, claimed that the FDA slowed the CDC’s response by throwing up redundant regulatory hurdles. The FDA would ultimately conclude that the “CDC did not manufacture its test consistent with its own protocol” and that a “manufacturing issue” — believed to be contamination at the CDC’s lab — rather than a design defect, was responsible for the flawed results.

Sebelius says it is par for the course for bureaucracies to seize up in a crisis: “The default position is do nothing, to stand behind the regs, and say, ‘We can’t move.’ ” But she insists that the foot-dragging and finger-pointing had a solution: leadership at the parent agency, HHS, by Azar. “I can guarantee you that the secretary can get their attention,” she says.

Kerry Weems is a former career official at HHS, who served with Azar in leadership posts during the Bush administration — and helped draw up that White House pandemic playbook. He says HHS got stuck trying to undo the failure. “It’s a human thing,” he says. “When you start out on a path, you have a tendency to stick to it.” The playbook says the CDC produces the test and the FDA approves it. “That’s the gold standard. And we just got stuck with path dependence, and didn’t move beyond that.”

The crisis dragged on for weeks. Publicly, the CDC put on a brave face. “We’re fully stood up at CDC,” Dr. Nancy Messonnier, the director of the National Center of Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said on February 21st. “There is no lag time for testing.” Messonnier continued to point to false positives as the major threat: “We obviously would not want to use anything but the most perfect possible kits.”

But the far greater danger was already apparent to anyone following the news. Days earlier, China had locked down 780 million people. The alternative to adequate testing was a blanket quarantine.

Azar declined to be interviewed. In a statement, a HHS representative said, “Secretary Azar has always insisted that the full resources of the Trump administration be marshaled to combat COVID-19. Any insinuation that Secretary Azar did not respond with needed urgency to the response or testing efforts are just plain wrong and disproven by the facts.”

Outside the administration, top health officials were exasperated. Becker tried to break the gridlock, writing to Hahn on February 24th with an “extraordinary and rare request” that the nation’s public-health labs be allowed to create their own tests — sidestepping the CDC. “We are now many weeks into the response with still no diagnostic test available,” Becker warned.

Yet this sense of alarm was not reflected at the top. In Senate testimony on February 25th, Azar insisted the administration was delivering. “I’m told the diagnostic doesn’t work,” Sen. Murray said, challenging Azar. The HHS secretary shot back. “That’s simply, flatly incorrect,” he said, pointing to the CDC’s own ability to run the test. Azar then began spouting Trumpian self-praise, celebrating the “historic” response to the virus. “No administration,” he said, “no CDC in American history, has delivered like this.”

Weems disagrees starkly. “I hope the CDC remembers this for decades,” he says, “because they failed. This is what they were built for — and they failed.”

Behind closed doors, top administration officials were starting to grapple with the seriousness of what the United States was facing — and to understand, at least intuitively, what the CDC’s failed testing regime was hiding: Containment of the coronavirus was failing, and economy-crippling mitigation would soon be necessary.

By Valentine’s Day, the National Security Council had reportedly developed a memo offering social-distancing guidelines, including school closures, “wide-spread ‘stay at home’ directives” and “cancellation of almost all sporting events, performances, and public and private meetings.” The role of asymptomatic carriers in spreading the coronavirus was becoming clearer, leading a top HHS official to warn of “a huge hole on our screening and quarantine effort.” By February 24th, the Coronavirus Task Force, Redfield included, had reportedly resolved to recommend a plan to Trump called “Four Steps to Mitigation.” But before Trump could be briefed, Messonnier had the grave misfortune of telling the truth. In a February 25th briefing with reporters, she warned of a wide coronavirus outbreak in the United States: “It’s not so much a question of if this will happen anymore, but rather more a question of exactly when.” She cautioned that under social-distancing measures, many Americans could lose income and that “disruption to everyday life may be severe.”

“Dr. Messonnier’s statements were right on,” says Frieden, the former CDC head, who says he relied on her as one of the nation’s top public-health specialists in respiratory viruses. But after Messonnier’s comments contributed to massive stock-market losses, Trump thew a fit. He exploded at Azar and reportedly threatened to fire the CDC scientist.

Trump soon announced a major change of course. Pence would be taking over the task force, sidelining Azar. Trump himself minimized the threat of the disease, calling coronavirus “a flu,” and insisted that infections had peaked: “We have a total of 15 people” diagnosed with COVID-19, he said. “The 15, within a couple of days, is going to be down to close to zero.”

Pence was a dubious choice to head the task force. As a governor, he shared Redfield’s moral objection to free needles for those living with drug addiction — a stance that inflamed an HIV epidemic among opioid users in Indiana on his watch. But with the change in leadership on the task force, the wheels of government suddenly came unstuck.

In a maddening update on February 26th, the CDC informed public labs that they could go ahead and run their original test kits — and simply disregard the problematic third prong. The original diagnostic tests, in other words, had been reliable all along. Frieden, the former CDC director, remains incredulous at how this unfolded: “It took them three weeks to say, ‘Just don’t use the third component!’”

The FDA simultaneously offered state labs a pathway to create their own tests, a route New York state used to develop its own high-speed test. Hahn had, at last, been added to the task force, and on February 29th, the FDA announced it would let private labs develop their own tests, subject to retroactive approval. “They had just taken the gate down,” Becker says, “and said, ‘Go. Run. Get started.’” The public-labs chief never got an explanation as to why. “They just changed their policy,” he says.

The testing breakdown had left the nation blind to the true scope of the outbreak. By March 1st, the CDC’s official tally of coronavirus cases had spiked from the 15 cases touted by Trump to 75. But researchers at Northeastern University have now developed models showing there were likely 28,000 infections at the time, in just five major cities, including New York and Seattle. The Seattle Flu Study — bucking red tape from the FDA and CDC — had begun a rogue effort to test swab samples it had collected using its own lab-developed test. By early March, the testing had uncovered a bevy of undiagnosed coronavirus infections. Dr. Helen Chu, the project’s lead scientist, told The New York Times that she realized then, with horror, “It’s just everywhere already.”

At this moment, shutting down the economy was inevitable — it was just a question of when the measures would be implemented. But scientists believe up to 90 percent of the human toll was still avoidable, had the government moved immediately to implement social-distancing measures. Instead, the administration persisted in its “Do nothing” message parade.

On March 6th, at the CDC headquarters in Atlanta, Redfield again stood by the president’s side. “I want to thank you for your decisive leadership, in helping us put public health first,” he told Trump, who wore a red keep america great cap. Redfield again called the risk from the coronavirus “low” and insisted the U.S. had only an “isolated number of clusters.” He then made a claim that would be comical if it were not so tragic: “It’s not as if we have multiple, multiple — hundreds and hundreds of clusters” across the country. “I mean, we’re not blind where this virus is right now in the United States.” The next day, appearing with Pence and cruise-industry executives, Redfield encouraged American travelers to keep their reservations, and even to visit Disneyland. Within the week, the administration’s denial crashed into the reality of the exploding pandemic. Disney shut its parks; Trump declared a state of emergency. Finally, on March 16th, the administration rolled out social-distancing guidelines to “slow the spread,” and the nation’s economy started grinding to a halt.

Redfield declined to be interviewed. A representative for the CDC defended his conduct, insisting that Redfield had been “closely tracking the global spread of COVID-19” from the outbreak’s early days, that his comments were “based upon available data at the time,” and that “at no time did he underestimate the potential for COVID-19 becoming a global pandemic.”

A PRESIDENT ADRIFT

Having plunged the nation headlong and unprepared into the deadliest disease outbreak in a century, President Trump is now proving to be one of the greatest obstacles to an effective national response.

Sebelius ultimately blames Trump for failing to end the infighting and fix the testing failure. “The White House has a unique way to get agencies’ attention, by making it clear that they want a solution, and everybody at the table with that solution within 24 hours,” she says. “If the president wants this to happen, it will happen.” But on his visit to the CDC in Atlanta, Trump had made an extraordinary admission: That he did not want to let passengers from a cruise ship, then suffering an outbreak off the California coast, to come on shore because the tally of patients would rise. “I like the numbers being where they are,” Trump said.

Those comments hit Sebelius like a punch in the gut. Trump plainly saw effective testing as a threat to his political messaging that the administration was containing the virus. By standing at CDC headquarters to declare that the tests were “perfect” and that he didn’t want COVID-19 numbers going up, the president was doing the exact opposite of demanding a fix. For the president’s deputies, Sebelius says, “there couldn’t be a clearer signal.”

The nation’s public labs were not fully up and running on the CDC test until March 8th, according to HHS, about the time Quest and LabCorp finally began testing in their labs. The Swiss pharmaceutical giant Roche did not receive FDA approval for its high-speed, high-volume test until March 13th. This initial delay in getting testing off the ground didn’t just set the country back in real time, says Johns Hopkins’ Adalja: “That’s still why we’re playing catch up. If you constrain our biggest source for diagnostic expertise and capacity, it’s no surprise that we ended up in the situation that we’re in.”

Trump has extraordinary powers to set the country on a better course — but he hasn’t used them. “What has been really terrifying to watch is that the federal government has refused to use the unique purchasing authority, the unique production authority, that no state can mobilize,” Sebelius says. What’s more, rather than supporting governors, Trump has been undermining them, “creating a system of chaos and competition, as opposed to collaboration, that has made the situation worse for most states.”

That includes states with Republican governors. Charlie Baker of Massachusetts had a shipment of medical equipment seized at customs by FEMA, and was forced to rely on a private plane, owned by the New England Patriots, to fly in a shipment of masks from China. In Maryland, Gov. Larry Hogan resorted to buying 500,000 coronavirus tests from South Korea and stashing them in an undisclosed location under watch by the National Guard.

Frieden, the former CDC chief, says that what’s required to contain the pandemic — and begin reopening the economy — is a “box it in” approach, with four components: widespread testing; isolating positive cases; contact tracing to identify people likely to have been infected; and quarantining those same people. The White House put this strategy into practice after a top aide to the vice president, Katie Miller, tested positive, and several Coronavirus Task Force members, including Redfield and Hahn, put themselves in quarantine on May 9th.

Rolling out this practice nationally would be a sophisticated undertaking, requiring coordination that had not, into May, materialized from the White House. After failing to provide anything more than a gesture at a framework for reopening in late April, the administration began pushing states to rev up their economies. It did this despite internal CDC projections that COVID-19 deaths were on track to hit 3,000 a day by June 1st, while blocking release of a science-based CDC playbook for opening schools, restaurants, churches, and mass transit.

Sen. Murray says Trump and Pence have abdicated their responsibility in this crisis: “No one is putting together a plan!” She recalls a recent conversation with Pence. “He couldn’t even tell me how many tests they need. If you don’t have a goal, how do you produce it?” Experts believe the country needs a minimum of 1 million tests a day to safely reopen; through April, it rarely exceeded 200,000 a day.

Sebelius, herself a former governor of Kansas, insists that it is mission-critical for the United States to begin acting like the United States. “We absolutely have to have a plan of what happens between now and when we finish a national vaccination campaign,” Sebelius says. “If every state is on their own trying to figure this out, we’ll have a total nightmare.”

In the event that Trump is still president when a vaccine becomes available, Sebelius argues that the loose confederations that have formed in the Northeast, Midwest, and Pacific states to coordinate their reopenings may need to band together in a shadow government to sidestep Trump. “Maybe governors will put together their own system,” she says, “and ignore what’s happening in the White House.”


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 07:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yikes disturbing for sure. Another dilemma, now that the cow has left the barn, is what to do from here, meaning health risks associated with keeping people in lock down, isolation, money issues, etc. carry health risks as well.
What a complete cluster fuck, we are so screwed.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/13/20 07:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Flashback to last summer.....

article.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 07:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I couldn't access that link's info

calypso
(Planeteer)
05/13/20 07:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I think Americans could have handled the depressing facts and grim outlook if the President had just said, “look folks, this thing is bad and it’s going to cause a lot of hardship before it’s all over.”

BmC
(Planeteer)
05/13/20 08:09 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Link works Smelly.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 08:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
I think Americans could have handled the depressing facts and grim outlook if the President had just said, “look folks, this thing is bad and it’s going to cause a lot of hardship before it’s all over.”


I think that's true. Set the tone for us to all be in it together. Even if they still had made the same mistakes about the test and all the other stuff, it would have made a big difference, I think.

Leadership.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/13/20 08:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It is all part of the great divide. Every conceivable thing has to be filtered through the political ramifications. How do we get out of this?

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 12:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
I think Americans could have handled the depressing facts and grim outlook if the President had just said, “look folks, this thing is bad and it’s going to cause a lot of hardship before it’s all over.”


yes I think you are right....and say to the nation we're short x number of masks and gowns for our medical people but we have yy plans to recover and we may need to shelter in palce until we get our natiional test plan together and then update those things daily instead of hiding the facts until its too late and then just burying everyone deeper...


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 12:30 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: calypso
I think Americans could have handled the depressing facts and grim outlook if the President had just said, “look folks, this thing is bad and it’s going to cause a lot of hardship before it’s all over.”


yes I think you are right....and say to the nation we're short x number of masks and gowns for our medical people but we have yy plans to recover and we may need to shelter in palce until we get our natiional test plan together and then update those things daily instead of hiding the facts until its too late and then just burying everyone deeper...


It seems so simple.... that whole doing-the-right-thing thing. And it makes your life easier.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 12:57 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

yup remember the ole tangled web thing when you lie lie lie. It Blows Back and bites you in your oversized ass

Popmann
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:53 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I went to the first non grocery store today I've been to without a spit guard up at the register.

I felt bad for the cashier. You shouldn't run retail now where you need to go to a cash register...and be within feet of each other facing each other talking. I felt a little bad that I bought something, but I don't venture out in a pandemic for just ANY album... #newIsbell #limitedVinyl

Our new cases have been going up since this "phased reopening" started this week. We'll see if they continue that trend tomorrow...we had been down to less than 50 new cases a day...and it was like 97 yesterday...It will be interesting to see if they ACTUALLY shut back down like they said they would.

Think about why they have the AG looking into whether the feds can overrule local lock downs. Why on EARTH would you do that? I think we need to keep our eye on balls like THAT...what interest would the fed have in actively wanting to open Nashville NYC or any other sanctuary city up? What does being a sanctuary city have to do with this? Right. THAT is some scary shit.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I have to say this: if the incubation period is up to two weeks, I'm a little surprised that there's an uptick in cases so quickly. That doesn't seem to make sense to me - it means they would have been infected a week or two or three back, right?

Maybe someone can shed some light.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:18 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don't think anything about this virus is cast in stone.

Xenophile
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I donned a mask and went to the local hardware store last weekend to get some parts to fix my broken sprinkler head. They had installed sneeze guards for the cashiers, but none of the employees, and less than 1/4 of the customers were wearing masks. It was impossible to keep 6 feet from others in the narrow aisles. I don’t think I’ll be going back to that store.

Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

is yahoo bias news?

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 02:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

here in this city, only so many customers are allowed are one time inside a store.

they use shopping carts and baskets to keep count at the door.
you gotta take one, whether you need it or not.
and you gotta spray your hands with the hand sanitizers they provide.

some restos have opened, but they only do take-out and delivery.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 03:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt


didnt read it but note its not yahoo news...its a piece written for national review...d


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
05/14/20 05:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 07:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Lol--LD posted an opinion piece from a right wing talking point mag, and thought it was unbiased!

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 08:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i heard one of ou resto has just re-opened, but only for take-out.
still good news.

i'm gonna go buy something and support my boss.


Popmann
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 08:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It seems to have been a one day thing here. Fwiw. 10 new yesterday.....the 14 day trend is still on its way down. I just freaked out because i hadn't gotten the updates in a week, they were opening and the first update i got was bigger than the biggest day of the peak.

In combination with the LITERALLY fake news that Trump’s shit task force put out about us spiking.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 09:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Quebecers here are eager to get out of confinement.
because we got big balls ! lol

we're gonna serve as guinea pigs for the rest of the country. ;\)



Popmann
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/14/20 09:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Re:Dump's task force stuff making national news...the "spike" in Nashville's numbers this past week were because the genius task force included surrounding counties that did NOT extend the shelter in place--thus have been open for a couple weeks (see incubation period)...AND...that includes a prison a couple hours from Nashville proper where there was a huge outbreak last week. That's ALSO terrible news--but, isn't a "spike in Nashville's numbers despite shelter in place orders".

Two words: Sanctuary City.

I'm sorry I repeated it--but, I heard that while I was in the dark (literally) and the first one back was a record breaking "new cases day", which fell in line with that narrative. That's on me.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 03:40 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
I think Americans could have handled the depressing facts and grim outlook if the President had just said, “look folks, this thing is bad and it’s going to cause a lot of hardship before it’s all over.”


Yes, it would have been an OUTSTANDING announcement for him!

However, he could have NEVER uttered those words without choking to death first. Narcissism & egomania prevent him from presenting us with an open admission of these incriminating facts. This statement would obviously place him in the limelight of being THE guilty party responsible for the inactions leading to massive death count in the USA.

He DOESN'T want to be seen as the responsible party for this since he's given THAT dubious distinction to 'Chiner', as he loves to call them. Pass the buck ANYWHERE else, but NOT ON MY HEAD...AT ANY COST.

He's SUCH a PHUCKING TOOL!

He'd prefer to believe we're all a bunch of mushrooms in his make-believe Trumpian 'World Of Fake-Reality', as we're living in the dark; and he feeds us a bunch of sh!t to sustain us. Of course, he also believes that we ALL worship him and hang on his every word believing the tripe he spews as golden gospel that has been sent forth from the mouth of the 'Stable Genius'.

GIMME A PHUCKIN' BREAK, DON! You're a 'C-' student (at best) that lives in your own fairy-land fake-reality of ignorance and lunacy. You're waiting for the men in white coats with their white van to come and take you away.

. . Falcon


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 04:30 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What does sanctuary city have to do with it?

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 02:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

From this morning's New York Times.

0---------------------------------------------0

DeVos Funnels Coronavirus Relief Funds to Favored Private and Religious Schools

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, using discretion written into the coronavirus stabilization law, is using millions of dollars to pursue long-sought policy goals that Congress has blocked.


By Erica L. Green

May 15, 2020
Updated 7:22 a.m. ET


WASHINGTON — Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is using the $2 trillion coronavirus stabilization law to throw a lifeline to education sectors she has long championed, directing millions of federal dollars intended primarily for public schools and colleges to private and religious schools.

The Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act, signed in late March, included $30 billion for education institutions turned upside down by the pandemic shutdowns, about $14 billion for higher education, $13.5 billion to elementary and secondary schools, and the rest for state governments.

Ms. DeVos has used $180 million of those dollars to encourage states to create “microgrants” that parents of elementary and secondary school students can use to pay for educational services, including private school tuition. She has directed school districts to share millions of dollars designated for low-income students with wealthy private schools.

And she has nearly depleted the 2.5 percent of higher education funding, about $350 million, set aside for struggling colleges to bolster small colleges — many of them private, religious or on the margins of higher education — regardless of need. The Wright Graduate University for the Realization of Human Potential, a private college in Wisconsin that has a website debunking claims that it is a cult, received about $495,000.

Bergin University of Canine Studies in California said its $472,850 allocation was a “godsend.”

“I think we are one of the most important educational institutions out there right now,” said its founder, Bonnie Bergin, who is credited with inventing the service dog.

House Democrats included language in a stimulus bill set for a vote on Friday that would limit Ms. DeVos’s ability to use about $58 billion in additional education relief for K-12 school districts for private schools. Congress has largely rejected Ms. DeVos’s proposals to create programs that resemble private school vouchers, and public education groups say Ms. DeVos is abusing discretion granted to her under the emergency legislation to achieve a long-held agenda.

“And it only took a pandemic,” said Sasha Pudelski, the advocacy director at the AASA, the School Superintendents Association.

The Education Department called the accusation “absurd.” But in a statement, the department said that every student and teacher had been affected by the pandemic. “The current disruption to our education system has reaffirmed what Secretary DeVos has been saying for years: We need to rethink education for all students, of every age, no matter the type of school setting,” it said.

Ms. DeVos has long held that taxpayer funds should be available for private school tuition, giving parents the chance to escape failing public schools and public education competition to drive improvement.

A spokesman for Republican members of the House Education Committee defended Ms. DeVos’s actions: “While there are likely multiple ways the secretary could have interpreted this broadly written law, the language the appropriators wrote gave her the flexibility to implement it as she has done.”

The most contentious move is guidance that directs school districts to increase the share of dollars they spend on students in private schools. Under federal education law, school districts are required to use funding it receives for its poorest students to provide “equitable services,” such as tutoring and transportation for low-income students attending private schools in their districts. But the department said districts should use their emergency funding, which was doled out based on student poverty rates, to support all students attending private schools in their districts, regardless of income.

Her guidance comes as elementary and secondary education groups lobby Congress for billions of additional dollars to lift students out of the educational crisis caused by the pandemic. In big cities, which serve the most vulnerable students, district leaders are projecting budget shortfalls of up to 25 percent because of collapsing tax revenues, said the Council of the Great City Schools, which represents 76 of the nation’s large urban districts. Its member districts said they could be forced to lay off 275,000 teachers.

In New York City, Chancellor Richard A. Carranza told City Council members on Tuesday that the school district was facing “the most horrific budget” it had ever seen.

The federal Education Department said if school districts were to count only poor students, “they would be placing nonpublic school students and teachers at a disadvantage that Congress did not intend.”

“It’s sad, but unsurprising, that some would put their own financial interests ahead of the needs of all students and teachers,” the department said.

Educators are pleading with the department to revise or rescind the guidance. In Montana, school officials estimate that compliance would shift more than $1.5 million to private and home schools, up from about $206,469 that the schools are due under current law. In Louisiana, private schools would receive at least 267 percent more funding, and at least 77 percent of the relief allocation for Orleans Parish would be redirected, according to a letter state that education chiefs sent to Ms. DeVos. The Newark Public Schools in New Jersey would lose $800,000 in federal relief funds to private schools, David G. Sciarra, the executive director of the Education Law Center, said in a letter to the governor of New Jersey asking him to reject the guidance.

Pennsylvania’s education secretary, Pedro A. Rivera, protested to the department that under the guidance, 53 percent more money would flow “from most disadvantaged to more advantaged students” in urban districts like Philadelphia, while rural districts like Northeast Bradford would see a 932 percent increase.

“School districts can — and should — ignore this guidance, which flouts what Congress intended to do with the CARES Act: support students who need it the most,” said Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, and Daniel A. Domenech, the executive director of AASA.

Indiana has announced it would not enforce the guidance. In a memo, its superintendent of public instruction, Jennifer McCormick, a Republican, said the state “ensures that the funds are distributed according to congressional intent and a plain reading of the law.”

“I will not play political agenda games with COVID relief funds,” she said on Twitter.

IN will distribute funds according to Congressional intent and a plain reading of the law.
I will not play political agenda games with COVID relief funds. Our most at-risk students depend on this commitment. https://t.co/Jrp56vxR1e
— Jennifer McCormick (@suptdrmccormick) May 12, 2020

Private school educators say that they have always been included in emergency relief funding, including for Hurricanes Katrina and Sandy, and this situation should be no different.

Sister Dale McDonald, the director of public policy and educational research at the National Catholic Educational Association, said many of its schools would need to be cleaned, and its staffing would need to shored up. At least 100 member schools are at risk for not reopening at all.

“In an emergency, kids shouldn’t have to prove they’re poor to get what they need to continue their education,” Sister McDonald said.

A competition announced by Ms. DeVos in which states can vie for tens of millions of dollars either to create statewide virtual schools or offer “microgrants” is also drawing fire for mirroring voucher programs that help parents pay for services outside the public school system. The program also stands to benefit virtual education companies that Ms. DeVos has personally invested in.

Representative Robert C. Scott of Virginia, the chairman of the House education committee, said the competition’s point system was weighted in favor of rural areas and voucher-friendly states, rather than those most affected by the coronavirus.

“This program design is indistinguishable from a standard voucher scheme and is the latest attempt by this department to promote privatization initiatives against both the wishes of the American people, and the intent of Congress,” he wrote to Ms. DeVos.

The microgrant program has been cheered by champions of school choice.

“They are smart to take advantage of the lag and lack of disciplined delivery of education,” said Jeanne Allen, the chief executive of the Center for Education Reform. “We don’t have any choice but to make parents and families the unit of education right now.”

Trish Stevens, who has a special-needs daughter, said a program in Arizona that was much like the microgrant proposal had been “life changing” for her child, who is supposed to have $150-an-hour speech therapy and $250-an-hour tutors.

“It’s like the Wild West of education right now,” she said, “and we’re all just trying to figure it out.”

Ms. DeVos is also under fire from college educators for disbursing millions of dollars to hundreds of small colleges that may not need it. The coronavirus relief law set aside about $350 million for schools that demonstrated “significant unmet needs related to expenses associated with coronavirus.” The department was supposed to prioritize schools that did not receive at least $500,000 from other categories of higher education funding. Instead, Ms. DeVos used the money to ensure that small schools received $500,000 each.

That meant outsize per-pupil allocations at several private schools and religious institutions with as few as 50 students while some public community colleges received as little as $500 a student.

Ben Miller, the vice president for postsecondary education at the liberal Center for American Progress, said the allocations came as large public colleges were “rationing,” and community college “starve.”

Aaron D. Profitt, the vice president for academic affairs at God’s Bible School and College in Ohio, said the school did not plan to claim its allocation because it was getting by on small donations. Ms. DeVos had criticized elite colleges that received stimulus funding they did not apply for and had urged schools to reject money they did not need.

“Of course, when you get a letter from the Department of Education giving you money, you start thinking about all the good things you can do,” Mr. Profitt said. “But when I read the CARES Act, the intention was not to do all the good things you could do but try to meet needs. We are trying to cooperate with the law as written.”


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 02:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

DeVos thinks from the paradigm of wealth and privilege. She simply does not understand need.

Webster
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 02:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Good grief.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 02:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

TDS on display.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 02:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Utah open this weekend,
yellow level.

thing is,
the state only shifted from high risk “red” to moderate “orange” in the color-coded safety levels about two weeks ago, on May 1.

the announcement came after five previous consecutive days with COVID-19 fatalities here.

The current data does not indicate Salt Lake City should yet be loosening our approach, does not even come close to meeting the federal guidelines.


wtf?


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 03:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Shutting them down

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 03:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
TDS on display.
Who is displaying it?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 04:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Trump Derangement Syndrome(TDS) or Trump Cult Syndrome(TCS), the problems still remain. If names could only make things disappear it would be blissful.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 04:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
Utah open this weekend,
yellow level.

thing is,
the state only shifted from high risk “red” to moderate “orange” in the color-coded safety levels about two weeks ago, on May 1.

the announcement came after five previous consecutive days with COVID-19 fatalities here.

The current data does not indicate Salt Lake City should yet be loosening our approach, does not even come close to meeting the federal guidelines.


wtf?


During the 1918 flu pandemic, people in many U.S. cities got restless and wanted social distancing measures lifted.

But if that was done too early, it led to a second wave of infections and deaths — "sometimes worse than the initial hump of their epidemic curve," a medical historian says.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 05:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
TDS on display.


do you think Trump has done a good job leading the country thru this pandemic?


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 05:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The approved answer to that is “better than Hillary would have done”

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/15/20 05:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

he can't even run a fever, less alone a country. lol

calypso
(Planeteer)
05/15/20 06:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

There is a theory that viral virulence (how sick it makes you, or how likely it is to kill you) tends to go down as pandemics persist – especially if social distancing measures are strong.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3675429/
The article is from 2013 (the H5N1 flu) but seems relevant to now. Warning: it is deadly dull to read.
The theory makes sense. The initial outbreak may be lethal as hell because the virus has no barriers to spreading. But as people start to identify it and take measures to prevent spread, the victims who are ill will be isolated. Their contacts will be isolated. That puts downward pressure on the strains that cause the most obvious illness. The strains most likely to survive will be those that can escape notice and continue to spread, i.e. the less virulent ones.
Of course, it’s a just a theory. And nature doesn’t respect our mathematics either. But I’ll take it as a hopeful concept.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:27 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Drumpf's primary residence is now a COVID-19 hotspot. I'm sure it is a coincidence or Fake News.

Newly reopened Palm Beach County, Fla reported a 71% increase in new cases the last 7 days compared to the previous 7 days,” the document explains. “The state authorized Palm Beach County to begin Phase 1 of reopening on 11 May, which includes the reopening of barbershops, salons, restaurants, and other businesses.”

Golf Anyone?


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:06 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

TDS is donny's supporters way of discounting every criticism of their man in the oval office. But just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get them. And so criticisms of donny's actions do not lack integrity just because they are criticisms of donny's actions. Claiming TDS is the hardnose GOP way of dealing with challenges. Just ask Moscow Mitch.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 01:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
The approved answer to that is “better than Hillary would have done”


nah, nobody can use that as a claim.

Maybe I should have taken a different tack and said let's list the positive things he's done. Not silencing Fauci, as lame as that is an accomplishment is still on the plus side. Building the temp hospitals and deploying the boat hospital to NYC was good.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 01:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Actually, Somebody already did

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 01:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
Actually, Somebody already did


you mean someone here?

or did the head shipping clerk say it?


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 02:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Somebody here

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 02:18 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
Somebody here


thats ridiculous but I guess I shouldnt be surprised could be the same person that argued Trump didnt suggest ingesting disinfection....


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 02:39 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You poor babies.

If Hillary were president she'd be loading people into boxcars by now.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 02:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
You poor babies.

If Hillary were president she'd be loading people into boxcars by now.


dumb.

she likely would have missed the chance to take action in January, probably February too but no question but she would have the country working thru the 70 page pandemic playbook...would she have replenished the
"stockpile" probably somewhat but not enough


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 02:52 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

but anyway she isnt president so there no value in speculating...Trump has basically done nothing and here we are....might as well have opened back up March 30th

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
but anyway she isnt president so there no value in speculating...Trump has basically done nothing and here we are....might as well have opened back up March 30th


That's true, but Dave felt the need to bring it up.
A national policy is not required.
Rural America does not need the same amount of time that the urban shitholes need.

Unfortunately this has become a political battering ram for the Trump haters. Enjoy yourself.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Grits is right, we need to look into our soul and heart and return the love, compassion, humility, etc. for Drumpf that he gives out so clearly.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I love you too monkeyboy.

Webster
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
the urban shitholes


That's kinda harsh.

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Enjoy yourself.


You too, friend. \:\) Happy saturday.




Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 03:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Does urban poopholes feel less harsh?


You have a good day too.





jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 04:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
but anyway she isnt president so there no value in speculating...Trump has basically done nothing and here we are....might as well have opened back up March 30th


That's true, but Dave felt the need to bring it up.
A national policy is not required.
Rural America does not need the same amount of time that the urban shitholes need.




no shit..realize that a national plan would account for the nation and knowing we have small towns and shitholes...betcha its all spelled out in the how to respond to pandemic playbook thats catching dust in the WH somehwere...


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 04:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

If you like your plan you can keep your plan.
If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.
I'm sure the government had it all figured out and you know they wouldn't lie to us


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 04:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
If you like your plan you can keep your plan.
If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.
I'm sure the government had it all figured out and you know they wouldn't lie to us


uh huh, how is that relevant? oh you're suggesting that becasue the govt might lie to us there is no use in developing (or likely implementing the existing one) a plan for dealing with this crisis.........

I'll just leave this quote here for you again
"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."
----
well, gasoline knocks the virus dead too.

and does a pretty good job at it.




especially if you set it on fire afterward... lol


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
If you like your plan you can keep your plan.
If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.
I'm sure the government had it all figured out and you know they wouldn't lie to us


uh huh, how is that relevant? oh you're suggesting that becasue the govt might lie to us there is no use in developing (or likely implementing the existing one) a plan for dealing with this crisis.........

I'll just leave this quote here for you again
"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that.


It’s relevent because he is desperate to find anything that could be interpreted as a lie by Obama. This is the only one they can find, so it gets a lot of use.
This one lie somehow equates to the stream of lies and nonsense that flows from Trumps mouth every single day. You know, they are both the same.
It’s all he has.
Oh, that and Benghazi. I am surprised that one hasn’t come up.
It’s pretty sad.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Benghazi is the old get the base foamy spin. The mental midgets have moved onto Obamagate. Right now all they have is the catchy name but are working/spinning on ideas to fit the name and get the base all foamed up.
It will work.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
Benghazi is the old get the base foamy spin. The mental midgets have moved onto Obamagate. Right now all they have is the catchy name but are working/spinning on ideas to fit the name and get the base all foamed up.
It will work.


and the emails...I think that still gets them going...

Obama left Trump with the broken tests...jesus the shit people believ


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 05:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

and the Clintons having people murdered, thats one to trot out periodiclly

Webster
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 06:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
If you like your plan you can keep your plan.
If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.


I almost can't believe it. Are you kidding? The current president *CONSTANTLY* says things - trivial and of great import - that are flatly not true. On a daily basis FOR YEARS on end - and not a peep out of you. Not one comment that I've seen from you or just about any other Trump voter about his constant, BLATANT lying.

There's no way I'll let that go. Hillary Clinton and her hypothetical admin. would run circles around this absurd clown show catastrophe. Forget the policy preferences - I'm just talking about basic, general competence.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 06:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Anybody willing to chip in and send this guy to Sweden?
I'm Just A Cow!


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 06:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
If you like your plan you can keep your plan.
If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.


I almost can't believe it. Are you kidding? The current president *CONSTANTLY* says things - trivial and of great import - that are flatly not true. On a daily basis FOR YEARS on end - and not a peep out of you. Not one comment that I've seen from you or just about any other Trump voter about his constant, BLATANT lying.

There's no way I'll let that go. Hillary Clinton and her hypothetical admin. would run circles around this absurd clown show catastrophe. Forget the policy preferences - I'm just talking about basic, general competence.


This is a infamous often used Obama lie. I remember thinking why would he say such a thing if he knew it wasn't true?
I think I know why. Obama had no idea how lame some of the so called health ins. provided by employers were. I wish I could find some of these plans again but I can't. They had stipulations like coverage only if you are between 18 and 22, huge deductibles and on and on. It was really a scam to look like they provided a healthcare benefit. Obamacare had certain requirement thresholds and these scam medical coverage fell far short. Once the plans were eliminated these people were subject to the new better policies.
I know grits won't find this an acceptable explanation but I feel this is why Obama "lied".

And of course one lie by a Black man is equal to a thousand lies by the White man, so theres that.


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 07:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Of course. Total nothingburger. Like "57 states".


Or the worst: Pelosi's "you have to pass it to see what's in it" - taken *completely* out of context and sold to the stupids among us. How can people be so damned ignorant?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/16/20 07:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It is nearly impossible for a person to admit they were conned.
Only explanation...or I hate to think it is the White guy being victimized thing that keeps the cult going.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 10:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When I saw this photo, I simply HAD to put it back up here to comment on what it's really all about.

[img][/img]


'Hello, my name is Donald J Trump, president of the United States. Some people would have you believe that I'm not very popular these days, but THAT could not be further from the truth...MY truth.

You see, this photograph of me in the Oval Office depicts me as I truly am, a closed-up shell of a man with false aspirations and grandiose claims of greatness & superiority. However, deep down I fully know the cold, harsh reality of my persona. I am a charlatan and political poser of the highest magnitude.

Take a much tighter focus on my folded arms tucked in tightly to my chest, along with attempting to hide my hands while tipping my head back so as to look at you in disgust down my nose in an effort to appear superior, which does not work.

Here, I am in an pose that proves just HOW much anxiety, insecurity, and low confidence I'm attempting to hide in this cowering position taken by this photographer.'


. . Falcon


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 10:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

And of course one lie by a Black man is equal to a thousand lies by the White man, so theres that.


Here is one of the prime examples of the lefts big lie that anybody who dares disagree with Obama is a racist.

When they use that one you know you've hit a nerve.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 10:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You can always tell when Falcon's pissed.
He starts typing in color.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 11:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Your guy: "Space is going to be the future both in terms of defense and offense and so many other things," Trump said. "We're now the leader in space."

"'super duper missiles'"


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/16/20 11:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When will you start typing in color?

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 12:13 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don't type in color and dont worry too much about small errors with spelling or grammar....

has Trump done anything well in regards to the pandemic?


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 12:19 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Absolutely.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 12:24 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Absolutely.


thats all I needed to know, thanks.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 12:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock


Obama left Trump with the broken tests...


And, don't forget about NO PLAN for a PANDEMIC OUTBREAK!

GEEZUS!!!

I see that even SUPER-DUPER-MAXI-LOYALIST-SUPPORTER Mitch McConnell recently stated...

"I was wrong," he said in an interview with Fox News' Bret Baier. "They DID leave behind a plan. So, I clearly made a mistake in that regard."

This about face from McConnell was clearly a surprise to everyone since they had taken an extremely hard stance against the Obama administration, and had been continuously pointing the finger at them for failing to supply the current administration with ANY type of guidelines, or stockpiles of necessary supplies in case of a pandemic.

However, the truth of the matter was that the Obama administration DID IN FACT pass along a comprehensive pandemic plan, which included a 69-page playbook for an early response to infectious diseases. Politico reported on the playbook in March and noted that the Trump administration lagged or did not follow through on many of its steps.

The playbook included recommendations for a "unified message" from a "single federal spokesperson," and for invoking the Defense Production Act, which Mr. Trump hesitated to use in the early weeks of the pandemic.

Unfortunately, Mr. Trump had also disbanded the National Security Council's pandemic response unit and sought funding cuts for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, well before the coronavirus landed in the United States.

Then, Mr. Trump had the audacity to consistently blame Mr. Obama for difficulties during the pandemic response, alleging that the previous administration didn't leave a sufficient stockpile, or a plan for a pandemic on the scale of the coronavirus we were currently experiencing. This all happening in the light that Mr. Trump KNEW of the 69-page playbook that was written and laid out for EXACTLY this type of outbreak here in the United States.

Also, Mr. Trump and his administration was well aware of the depleted medical supplies and equipment since they had sent very large orders overseas due to urgent needs in certain countries when these outbreaks first began.

The depleted supplies that fell well below the critical restocking levels were the fault of the current administration for releasing too many shipments of various supplies overseas, and THEN COMPOUNDING THE PROBLEM by FAILING TO REORDER THOSE SUPPLIES IN A TIMELY FASHION.

Then, Mr. Trump lies about how this happened by blaming the previous administration.

I wonder if he had someone else do his homework for him while he was in school, too? Then, if he got a 'B', he had somebody beat up the kid that did his homework.

JIMMYROCK, you asked...

has Trump done anything well in regards to the pandemic?


You could have stopped after the first five words. The answer would have been, of course. He's a CONSISTENT LIAR. Only needs to open his mouth and talk.

I think I'd believe anything about this whack-job right about now. He needs some major 'bitch-slappin' in a room sitting in a chair, gagged, with his hands tied behind his back.

You know....

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

"STOP LYING!" - WHACK!!!

. . Falcon



Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 01:17 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

And of course one lie by a Black man is equal to a thousand lies by the White man, so theres that.


Here is one of the prime examples of the lefts big lie that anybody who dares disagree with Obama is a racist.

When they use that one you know you've hit a nerve.


Hey when I want you to froth, you shall froth.
But I stand by the statement and it is my belief. People marinated in certain views aren't aware they have been marinated.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 01:45 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Says the marinated monkey.

AL
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 01:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I refuse to even read this thread because I can't stomach the thought of anyone denying just how deeply the asshole has botched it.

No one in recorded history ever achieved a public failure of this magnitude. In a 4 year term of abysmal life-deflating debacles, this was his magnum opus.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 02:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
Says the marinated monkey.


I'm a tasty treat in Chiner.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 02:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You always said you wanted to be eaten.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 01:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

An interesting and somewhat geeky article about test results from The Atlantic. The Atlantic created a project early on in the epidemic using the numbers of tests reported from the state governments themselves, and were the only outlet actually doing so. Their reporting on and compiling of the number of tests has been used by both the federal government and by public health institutions. They update it daily. Their reporting is here:

https://covidtracking.com/

This is part of The Atlantic's freely available information about corona. Link to the article is here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/05/cdc-publishing-covid-19-test-data/611764/

0------------------------------------------0
State and Federal Data on COVID-19 Testing Don’t Match Up

The CDC has quietly started releasing nationwide numbers. But they contradict what states themselves are reporting.

Robinson Meyer and Alexis C. Madrigal
7:00 AM ET



How many coronavirus tests have been conducted in the United States? For the first time since February, the federal government has an answer. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now say that 10,847,778 coronavirus tests have been conducted nationwide. These tests have found about 1.4 million positive cases.

These figures come from a new CDC website that appeared online last week with little fanfare. It marks an important but much belated development for the nation’s premier public-health agency, which has struggled to manage a pandemic that has killed more than 81,000 Americans and plunged the U.S. economy into a recession. Not since February 29, when the nationwide death toll stood at five, has the CDC published anything close to a comprehensive daily count of tests.

For the past 11 weeks, the COVID Tracking Project at The Atlantic has been the country’s only reliable source for national testing data. (The tracker compiles the number of tests reported by each U.S. state and territory daily.) While the CDC has provided only occasional and rudimentary tallies of total tests, data from the COVID Tracking Project have been used by Johns Hopkins University, governors and members of Congress, and the White House.

With the new CDC site, the federal government is providing regular testing data again, and for the first time ever, it is doing so on a state-by-state level. But an initial analysis of the CDC’s state-level data finds major discrepancies between what many states are reporting and what the federal government is reporting about them. In Florida, for example, the disparity is enormous. The state government reported on Friday that about 700,000 coronavirus tests have been conducted statewide since the beginning of the outbreak. This count should be authoritative: Governor Ron DeSantis has ordered hospitals and doctors to report their test results to the Florida Department of Health. Yet the CDC reported more than 919,000 tests in the state in that same period. That’s 31 percent more tests than Florida itself seems to think it has conducted. (Because the CDC says it does not update its data on the weekends, we have, throughout this article, compared its figures against the numbers reported by each state on Friday.) When we asked the CDC to explain the discrepancy in Florida, the agency declined to comment on the record.

“If this is what they’re getting, the CDC should pick up the phone and call the state of Florida and say, ‘What’s happening?’” Ashish Jha, the K.T. Li Professor of Global Health at Harvard, told us.

Given the complexity and the multisource nature of the data, some variations should certainly be anticipated. But the inconsistencies we found suggest that Florida is not an outlier. Using the state numbers that match the CDC’s output most closely, in 22 states, the CDC’s reported number of tests diverges from the number reported by the state government by more than 10 percent. In 13 states, it diverges by more than 25 percent. In some cases, the CDC’s tallies are much higher than what states are reporting; in others, much lower.

In New Hampshire, the CDC reports about half as many tests as the state government; in Indiana, it reports about half as many more. California has reported the results of 1,133,906 tests, but the CDC is aware of 924,696. (Some of the largest discrepancies affect some of the country’s most populous states, including not only California but Illinois and Texas.) The state government of New Jersey says that 462,972 specimens have been analyzed. The CDC reports only 409,320. Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Kentucky, Montana, North Carolina, Tennessee, Massachusetts, and Maryland also report testing figures that differ significantly from those published by the CDC. Curiously enough, the CDC’s state and national totals for cases and deaths match up well with what we’ve gathered from states at the COVID Tracking Project. So do its national testing totals. Only when you dig into the state-level testing data—where discrepancies skew in both directions—do things begin to go awry.

The data sets have one known major difference: Some states report the total number of people tested, while the CDC reports every test, even if a single person is tested more than once. A spokesperson for Indiana’s public health department pointed to this difference to explain the state’s test gap. But our analysis suggests this—or any other methodological factor—does not fully explain the widespread discrepancies. Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security, told us that one possible explanation is that the CDC could be overreporting testing totals in some states if it is including antibody-test results, which don’t track real-time infections, and underreporting in other states because of delays in paperwork. But the differences seem to be so widespread that they are unlikely to arise from a single discrepancy in how certain kinds of tests are reported. At their current rate of growth, Florida’s state-reported testing numbers would not match the CDC’s current totals for another two weeks.

“This is more evidence of the dysfunction of the CDC,” Jha said. “There is not supposed to be a lot of daylight between the CDC and the states.” Jha has previously criticized the CDC for being “inexplicitly absent” during the coronavirus pandemic.

Some of the mismatch between states and the CDC could be explained by the federal government’s unusual manner of collecting testing data. Generally, disease-surveillance data flow from local public-health departments to state governments, and then on to the federal government. But in April, Vice President Mike Pence asked hospitals to start reporting their COVID-19 testing data directly to the federal government. In an email, a CDC spokesperson confirmed that the new website reflected test data from more sources than just states, saying it came from hospitals, private medical-testing companies, and state and local public-health labs.

The data that Pence requested fed into a piece of software called HHS Protect, which was meant to serve as a clearinghouse of coronavirus data for the Trump administration, according to a spokesperson for the Department of Health and Human Services. HHS Protect was developed by the defense contractor Palantir. The company declined to comment on the record.

It’s unclear exactly when the CDC site first appeared. A CDC spokesperson told us that it went live on May 7, but the first Internet Archive cache of the page is dated May 9. The CDC did not announce the existence of the page in any statement, social-media post, or press conference.

In many of the counts the CDC did provide over the past several months, it missed the large majority of tests. In early May, the CDC reported that only about half a million tests had been conducted in the U.S. But the COVID Tracking Project had tallied the results of more than 7.5 million tests reported by states by then. In late April, the White House used the COVID Tracking Project’s data in a major report on national testing strategy. It cited the data again earlier this week in a press conference.

The CDC should provide the country with a single, trustworthy data source on the state of COVID-19 testing. But the fact that its data is still in such disagreement with the state-reported totals means that the CDC’s latest efforts are not of much use to politicians and the public. For now, the agency that should be a respected source of truth in this crisis is only adding to the national confusion.


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 01:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

That one aspect alone is such a disturbing failure of both state and federal officials - the collection and organization of raw data - which can be a powerful tool to help us along. If we could just get it together. How can the U.S. have these kinds of failures?

One answer to that question:

WashPo: Crisis exposes how America has hollowed out its government


guitartb
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 04:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"Who's displaying it?"

Hmmm, I'm not sure ? ?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 04:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anybody willing to chip in and send this guy to Sweden?


guitartb
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anybody willing to chip in and send this guy to Sweden?


\:D Sorry, just couldn't resist.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:09 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

HAHAHA

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Cutting FDA red tape or adding red tape?

"President Donald Trump had led off that morning’s Coronavirus Task Force briefing by boasting of his efforts to “slash red tape like nobody has ever done” in order to enable rapid development of treatments. He spoke of a newly launched vaccine trial that the FDA had fast-tracked and turned his promotional talents to touting two drugs—an antimalarial medication in use for decades and an experimental antiviral—as already proven to be effective in fighting COVID-19.

“Normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that, and it was approved very, very quickly,” Trump said. “Those are two that are out now, essentially approved for prescribed use, and I think it’s going to be very exciting.”

Adding red tape?
FDA Halts Coronavirus Testing Program Backed by Bill Gates

"SEATTLE — An innovative coronavirus testing program in the Seattle area — promoted by billionaire Bill Gates and local public health officials as a way of conducting wider surveillance on the invisible spread of the virus — has been ordered by the federal government to stop its work pending additional reviews.

The program involved sending home test kits to both healthy and sick people in the hope of conducting the kind of widespread monitoring that could help communities safely reopen from lockdowns. Researchers and public health authorities already had tested thousands of samples, finding dozens of previously undetected cases.

But the program, a partnership between research groups and the Seattle and King County public health department that had been operating under authorization from the state, was notified this week that it now needs approval directly from the federal government. Officials with the Food and Drug Administration told the partnership to cease its testing and reporting until the agency grants further approval.

“Please discontinue patient testing and return of diagnostic results to patients until proper authorization is obtained,” the FDA wrote in a memo"

Gee what happened to States Rights? Drumpf made it clear States are on their own during this Pandemic.
Red Tape







Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anybody willing to chip in and send me to Sweden?


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Authorities are not seeing spikes in coronavirus cases in places that are reopening but are seeing increases in some areas that remain closed, U.S. health secretary Alex Azar said on Sunday.

"We are seeing that in places that are opening, we're not seeing this spike in cases," Azar said on CNN's "State of the Union" program. "We still see spikes in some areas that are in fact close to very localized situations."

I love this line,lol

"Asked about images being broadcast from some areas of the country showing people gathering near bars and congregating close together, Azar said that was the cost of freedom."

"I think in any individual instance you're going to see people doing things that are irresponsible. That's part of the freedom that we have here in America," he said on CNN."

No Spikes In Reopening Locations


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:41 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Vanillagrits said:

 Quote:
A national policy is not required.
Rural America does not need the same amount of time that the urban shitholes need.


I find this really remarkable for a couple of reasons.

One is that the virus doesn't recognize state boundaries. Things like the national stockpile of medical equipment could be much more effectively shared if there was a national plan, rather than the ad-hoc state-by-state figuring out what who needs when and where. To me, one reason our response to this crisis has been ineffective is because we do *not* have a national response.

Another is that it implies that there are two Americas - urban and rural - and that one doesn't need the other (seems like in this case, rural doesn't have the same problems or issues that urban America has).

But I strongly disagree with that idea. While there may be problems which are unique to each type of living - for example, homelessness in cities, opioids in the country - I think we all have a stake in helping each other out.

The thing is, it seems to me, a lot of people think this way. And I think, at the end of the day, that is part of our fundamental problem.

We *do* need a national response. We in the cities *should* help rural folks with opioid addiction, by means of a national program to help deal with it. People in the countryside *should* help the homeless in the cities, through their tax dollars, again, with a federal program to help deal with the causes of the problem. We are *all* better off using *our* government to support the needs of *all* the people.

I find this really sad.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 05:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

just look at what is happening in texas,
for your real-time reality check.

urban shitholes indeed.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
just look at what is happening in texas,
for your real-time reality check.

urban shitholes indeed.


Texas is up 32%....CT is down 7%, our Phase 1 of re-opening is May 20th

https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Vanillagrits said:

 Quote:
A national policy is not required.
Rural America does not need the same amount of time that the urban shitholes need.


I find this really remarkable for a couple of reasons.

One is that the virus doesn't recognize state boundaries. Things like the national stockpile of medical equipment could be much more effectively shared if there was a national plan, rather than the ad-hoc state-by-state figuring out what who needs when and where. To me, one reason our response to this crisis has been ineffective is because we do *not* have a national response.

Another is that it implies that there are two Americas - urban and rural - and that one doesn't need the other (seems like in this case, rural doesn't have the same problems or issues that urban America has).

But I strongly disagree with that idea. While there may be problems which are unique to each type of living - for example, homelessness in cities, opioids in the country - I think we all have a stake in helping each other out.

The thing is, it seems to me, a lot of people think this way. And I think, at the end of the day, that is part of our fundamental problem.

We *do* need a national response. We in the cities *should* help rural folks with opioid addiction, by means of a national program to help deal with it. People in the countryside *should* help the homeless in the cities, through their tax dollars, again, with a federal program to help deal with the causes of the problem. We are *all* better off using *our* government to support the needs of *all* the people.

I find this really sad.


Here's the problem Tom, a national response would wind up being a one size fits all non solution that funnels money into companies that members of the government have a financial interest in. It winds up helping nobody but a few fat cats.

It makes more sense to me to have each state assess and address it's unique needs and request needed assistance from a national stockpile. It's true that corruption can exist in individual states, but the path from the cheated citizens to the source of the corruption is much shorter and easier to address.

Are there two Americas? No, there is one America and 50 independent states. Always has been.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

People in the cities buy the food the farmers harvest. I am grateful for their work and I tell them so each time I buy their produce.

The "shitholes" comment was unkind, and it reminded me of donny's attitude.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Doofie
The "shitholes" comment was unkind, and it reminded me of donny's attitude.


When people are forced to live in the streets in our cities, the unkindness gives way to painful accuracy.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Have a nice day.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Vanillagrits said:

 Quote:
A national policy is not required.
Rural America does not need the same amount of time that the urban shitholes need.


I find this really remarkable for a couple of reasons.

One is that the virus doesn't recognize state boundaries. Things like the national stockpile of medical equipment could be much more effectively shared if there was a national plan, rather than the ad-hoc state-by-state figuring out what who needs when and where. To me, one reason our response to this crisis has been ineffective is because we do *not* have a national response.

Another is that it implies that there are two Americas - urban and rural - and that one doesn't need the other (seems like in this case, rural doesn't have the same problems or issues that urban America has).

But I strongly disagree with that idea. While there may be problems which are unique to each type of living - for example, homelessness in cities, opioids in the country - I think we all have a stake in helping each other out.

The thing is, it seems to me, a lot of people think this way. And I think, at the end of the day, that is part of our fundamental problem.

We *do* need a national response. We in the cities *should* help rural folks with opioid addiction, by means of a national program to help deal with it. People in the countryside *should* help the homeless in the cities, through their tax dollars, again, with a federal program to help deal with the causes of the problem. We are *all* better off using *our* government to support the needs of *all* the people.

I find this really sad.


Here's the problem Tom, a national response would wind up being a one size fits all non solution that funnels money into companies that members of the government have a financial interest in. It winds up helping nobody but a few fat cats.

It makes more sense to me to have each state assess and address it's unique needs and request needed assistance from a national stockpile. It's true that corruption can exist in individual states, but the path from the cheated citizens to the source of the corruption is much shorter and easier to address.

Are there two Americas? No, there is one America and 50 independent states. Always has been.


I think maybe we have different ideas about what a national response looks like. To me, that means using the purchasing power of the federal government to get supplies from suppliers, give the needed supplies to states that need them most urgently, then move more durable supplies (such as respirators) to the next place that needs them. Having CDC track and understand the spread of the disease so that we will have not just a better idea of how many cases and where they are, but to better align the idea of opening up places. Because of the crisis, there are millions of people who have been basically thrown into poverty and unemployment - the national government has the ability to give them relief through a variety of mechanisms, including direct payments over many months of the crisis, pressuring banks and other industries to ease up on collecting mortgage and rent from people affected, and helping to make sure that food gets distributed to places where people don't have money or food.

Almost none of that is happening.

But one thing that has happened is that there are a lot of fat cats who have received a lot of money - some from price gouging because each of the individual states is competing with the others for the supplies they need, others from the focus on bailing out businesses, not helping people, still others from taking advantage of the moment to try and push through more tax breaks for a lot of people who already have many. That's what's been going on.

This government is not interested in helping ordinary people. And in my opinion that is all wrong. It's OUR government. People are hurting and need help. I want my tax money to go to people who need help, wherever they are. I don't want it going to airline executives who have enriched themselves and their friends - they're fine. They're good. They have money. They will weather this crisis just fine.

I have a good job, and thankfully my wife does too, and we are doing OK through all of this. We are really fortunate. There are a shit-ton of people who aren't. I want them to receive every bit of help possible. I don't want them to wind up on the street because they've been foreclosed. I don't want them to go hungry. I don't want them to die because they can't afford medical treatment or don't have insurance because they lost a job, or because they work a job where they can't get insurance. That, to me, is all wrong. Not taking care of each other is all wrong.

That's what's happening now. It breaks my heart and it makes me ill.

We are one America and 50 mutually dependent states committed to helping each other and working with each other to solve mutual problems at different levels.

That's different than 50 independent states. That's what we had during the Articles. It didn't work.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Having homeless people is a choice. We don't have to have them. We could solve that problem. Buy a couple of less aircraft carriers. That will pay to house all of the homeless people everywhere across the United States.

It's a choice. People don't choose homelessness. They don't want to turn cities into shitholes. They want to be safe and clean like anyone else.

We can change that. It is a choice we make. So far, we have chosen other priorities. It doesn't have to be like this.


Infinitymobile
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 06:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

People don't choose homelessness.
sadly, plenty of them do. I know quite quite a few vets from my Infantry FB group that are homeless by choice. They are to proud to accept help....so they choose to live in a tent or their vehicle until they get back on their feet.....and several have been 'trying to get back on their feet' for quite some time.

These are men that have options......other Infantry brothers offering to let them stay with them, tons of information being provided to them by their brothers regarding groups that help homeless vets.....but they choose not to accept the help.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 07:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When I said "people don't choose to be homeless", I meant that people generally - including your infantry group - didn't set out to live on the street. It didn't have to happen that that's how it wound up for them, whether they're too proud to take help or not. I find it hard to believe that it was their goal to live on the street - and we, as a society, never had to accept that as an option for anyone.

That's a choice we make as a society, rightly or wrongly.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 08:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
Having homeless people is a choice. We don't have to have them. We could solve that problem. Buy a couple of less aircraft carriers. That will pay to house all of the homeless people everywhere across the United States.


Now you are talking about priorities and I couldn't agree more with your statement. But here is the dilemma, how do you turn the jobs lost building aircraft carriers into jobs created by housing the homeless? It could be a zero sum game but the transition is the pesky part.
We keep voting for little to no change no matter the party. We are so deep into everything Eisenhower warned us about I am not sure how we can wiggle out of it. Military spending touches everything job wise, even Google and Microsoft have Military contracts. Being in Electronics I have never had a job that didn't involve Military contracts and I searched jobs that didn't, they don't exist. Maybe a position like a Nun has no Military involvement.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell how could building weapons over building a a fair society where everyone has the basics not have us Hell bound?
It is said caring for others is what made our species unique, it appears to be another myth.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 08:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat


I think maybe we have different ideas about what a national response looks like.


Yes we do. Your idea is based on intentions, my views are based on 35 years of dealing with the federal government. You are theoretical, I am real world.

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

This government is not interested in helping ordinary people. And in my opinion that is all wrong. It's OUR government. People are hurting and need help. I want my tax money to go to people who need help, wherever they are.


So who do you blame, the executive branch, the legislative branch, or an entrenched system of bureaucrats that have their good old boy network? Do you seriously think this just started happening over the last three years?

I know so many great people working in government contracting that are hamstrung by a poorly conceived system. Saving money or spending it wisely is almost impossible for them.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/17/20 09:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat


I think maybe we have different ideas about what a national response looks like.


Yes we do. Your idea is based on intentions, my views are based on 35 years of dealing with the federal government. You are theoretical, I am real world.

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

This government is not interested in helping ordinary people. And in my opinion that is all wrong. It's OUR government. People are hurting and need help. I want my tax money to go to people who need help, wherever they are.


So who do you blame, the executive branch,

.


Trump is to Blame for doing practically nothing to help, pushing mis-information and not providing leadership and support for the country. Head shipping clerk.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/17/20 09:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat


I think maybe we have different ideas about what a national response looks like.


Yes we do. Your idea is based on intentions, my views are based on 35 years of dealing with the federal government. You are theoretical, I am real world.

 Originally Posted By: flatcat

This government is not interested in helping ordinary people. And in my opinion that is all wrong. It's OUR government. People are hurting and need help. I want my tax money to go to people who need help, wherever they are.


So who do you blame, the executive branch, the legislative branch, or an entrenched system of bureaucrats that have their good old boy network? Do you seriously think this just started happening over the last three years?

I know so many great people working in government contracting that are hamstrung by a poorly conceived system. Saving money or spending it wisely is almost impossible for them.


Well, not so fast. I have 11 plus years of dealing with the Feds. \:\)

This particular administration is less interested in the needs of ordinary people than any other administration of my lifetime. I don't think it started three years ago. I think it started about 40 years ago, which is when people really began to take the idea of government as a problem seriously.

Government isn't a problem. Saying government is a problem is like saying business is a problem. There's lots of good stuff about business. There are lots of bad things about it too. So it's a stupid thing to say. At the end of the day, government is us. If there are problems, we need to fix them. It's why we have elections.

But this idea about the evil of government has become pervasive. And the amount of corruption we are seeing now is much greater than anything we have seen before. The big difference I see is that no one cares.

Who do I blame? I care less about blame and more about solving these problems. I send emails and I call my representatives, but that is just another black hole. I still do it.

Also, you know. It's not theory. All that stuff about the stockpile and all of that was IN THE PLAN. That was all in the plan for dealing with epidemic diseases. This I know about the government: we have plans for dealing with crises. We may not have a different plan for every eventuality - and that's not really desirable anyhow. The Japanese, for example, do that. And then when something happens they never thought of, which *always* happens in a crisis, they are paralyzed. We, the Americans, are really, really good at thinking on our feet and responding to problems.

So we had an outline. We had a plan. And this administration threw it out the window. Instead, what we have are 50 ad-hoc, made-up-as-we-go contingencies. That's not an effective response to this crisis. That's like being at an embassy, a crowd storms the gate, and every section - Consular, Public Diplomacy, Management, the other agencies - all decide on their own what they should be doing, how they should respond. That's ridiculous, and it isn't what happens. We have had experiences with crowds storming the gates before - so we draw from those experiences, we practice, then when it happens, we work together to figure out what to do, who does what, and so on.

So it's not theoretical. What we have right now is not working well. A lot of people are now dead because of that. That bothers me. I hope it bothers you too. Because it didn't have to happen.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/18/20 09:37 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i went for a walk yesterday and was surprised to see a manifestation in front of the Parlement.
the idiots were protesting masks, 5G towers, the Earth being a sphere, exchanging Lysol recipes, etc...

the cops were watching form their perimeters.
i kept my distance.

i bet COVID is gonna have a great time with the whole lot ! lol



jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 09:58 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits


Yes we do. Your idea is based on intentions, my views are based on 35 years of dealing with the federal government. You are theoretical, I am real world.


how many of your 35 years were dealt specifically with marshalling the powers of the federal govt to respond to a global pandemic crisis..but yeah, the $700 screwdriver is a great reason to not have a national plan to help people


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 11:45 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

How much experience does anyone have dealing with a pandemic?
We certainly have our share of armchair experts here.

You have to admit that the current administration has done a better job of handling the situation than any past administration.

BTW....does anyone have a copy of the "playbook"????? or do they have to write it to know what's in it?

The collective hate to the point of derangement for one man is the biggest stumbling block in this whole deal.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/18/20 12:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here's a page from the CDC's website with some plans:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/planning-preparedness/national-strategy-planning.html

That's the great thing about so much of our government's work: it's public. And the people who do it are accountable.

I don't actually have to admit that this administration has done a better job than previous administrations, because I don't think that's true. I think the response to this crisis has been inept and inadequate and people have died because of it.

When you say "the collective hate to the point of derangement for one man is the biggest stumbling block in this whole deal", can you tell me what that means? Stumbling block in terms of ... what?


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 01:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Quote:
You have to admit that the current administration has done a better job of handling the situation than any past administration.


Those "you have to admit" statements are always a challenge for me. I actually don't have to admit what I don't agree with, and I feel compelled to respond to the imposition. The current US administration has not done a better job than any past administrations. The exact current situation has never happened before and the current administration has done a terrible job of handling it. Previous administrations have done better jobs with situations they were presented and the outcomes of most of those challenges were significantly better that this one. If we disagree we disagree, but I have a mountain of evidence to support my position.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 02:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Its of course totally ridiculous. It would be hard to find ways to have handled this worse.

JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 02:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Those $700 screwdrivers must be really nice.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 02:36 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: JohnM
Those $700 screwdrivers must be really nice.

They have suspiciously shaped handles and vibrate when squeezed.


pbrowne
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 02:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Bill, ignoring warnings in January of the impending pandemic, pushing non-scientific "cures" and issuing contradictory statements re: personal conduct would seem to be the exact opposite of what needed to be done.

I don't understand how you can possibly think that this administration has been anything other than negligent re: their approach to this crisis.


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 07:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

So somebody took the word "derangement" and put it into a labeling phrase so they could attempt to control the narrative that surrounds donny and his reckless administration.

I took this from Wikipedia...

"The term has been used by Trump supporters to discredit criticism of his actions, as a way of reframing the discussion by suggesting that his opponents are incapable of accurately perceiving the world."

Those of us who recognize donny for what he is are not insane. In fact we are quite capable of rational thought. It is clear to me from donny's statements from the podium that he is not always capable of rational thought. He is clearly paranoid, and in the office he occupies he is a danger to the people of the USA.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/18/20 07:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"That is just Donald being Donald" is what the appeasers of Drumpf's mental illness sing. It is sung to the same tune as "boys will be boys".

Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/18/20 07:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

And we accept that poison at our own peril.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 12:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
Bill, ignoring warnings in January of the impending pandemic


Really? It seems to me the impeachment fevered Dems and the media were the ones ignoring and at times branding preventative actions as "racist" and "xenophobic". It looks to me like the administration was already moving in January:


December 31: China reports the discovery of the coronavirus to the World Health Organization.

January 3: CDC Director Robert Redfield sent an email to the director of the Chinese CDC, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus.

January 5: CDC Director Redfield sent another email to the Chinese CDC Director, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak,

January 6: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued a level I travel notice for Wuhan, China due to the spreading coronavirus.

January 7: The CDC established a coronavirus incident management system to better share and respond to information about the virus.

January 11: The CDC updated a Level 1 travel health notice for Wuhan, China.

January 17: The CDC began implementing public health entry screening at the 3 U.S. airports that received the most travelers from Wuhan – San Francisco, New York JFK, and Los Angeles.

January 20: Dr. Fauci announces the National Institutes of Health is already working on the development of a vaccine for the coronavirus.

January 21: The CDC activated its emergency operations center to provide ongoing support to the coronavirus response.

January 23: The CDC sought a “special emergency authorization” from the FDA to allow states to use its newly developed coronavirus test.

January 27: President Trump tweeted that he made an offer to President Xi Jinping to send experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak.

January 27: The CDC issued a level III travel health notice urging Americans to avoid all nonessential travel to China due to the coronavirus.

January 27: The White House Coronavirus Task Force started meeting to help monitor and contain the spread of the virus and provide updates to the President.

January 29: The White House announced the formation of the Coronavirus Task Force to help monitor and contain the spread of the virus and provide updates to the President.

January 31: The Trump Administration:

Declared the coronavirus a public health emergency.

Announced Chinese travel restrictions.

Suspended entry into the United States for foreign nationals who pose a risk of transmitting the coronavirus.
January 31: The Department of Homeland Security took critical steps to funnel all flights from China into just 7 domestic U.S. airports.

February 3: The CDC had a team ready to travel to China to obtain critical information on the novel coronavirus, but were in the U.S. awaiting permission to enter by the Chinese government.

February 2: The CDC expanded enhanced entry screening to eight major airports across the nation.

February 4: President Trump vowed in his State of the Union Address to “take all necessary steps” to protect Americans from the coronavirus while Pelosi was having a temper tantrum.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 01:09 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I am sure you could figure out what really needed to be done to have better protected the US citizens from the pandemic...we already know how effective the bullet points you listed above were, 80k+ and counting

Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 01:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Donny's version of taking all necessary steps included an ongoing denial of the seriousness of the situation. The instances of his denials are are many and a matter of public record. Donny failed again in his promise to serve the people of the USA.

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 01:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
I am sure you could figure out what really needed to be done to have better protected the US citizens from the pandemic...we already know how effective the bullet points you listed above were, 80k+ and counting


There is not an accurate count of the victims since states and hospitals were encouraged to fudge the numbers.

While we're talking inaccuracies, how many lives could have been saved if someone else were in charge?

C'mon, let's hear your best guess.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 01:52 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
I am sure you could figure out what really needed to be done to have better protected the US citizens from the pandemic...we already know how effective the bullet points you listed above were, 80k+ and counting


There is not an accurate count of the victims since states and hospitals were encouraged to fudge the numbers.



incorrect on the second point...additionally I believe the death reports did not count in home deaths just those at medical facilities, I'll have to confirm I have that correct but that would indicate an undercounting...


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 01:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
I am sure you could figure out what really needed to be done to have better protected the US citizens from the pandemic...we already know how effective the bullet points you listed above were, 80k+ and counting




While we're talking inaccuracies, how many lives could have been saved if someone else were in charge?

C'mon, let's hear your best guess.


really no reason to speculate.. at this point we know how ineffective the lack of a plan was and continues to be...striving to do better isnt a sin...


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

And you truly have no proof that different actions would have lessened the numbers. You have no idea of the number of people that have been saved (perhaps millions) by the actions already taken.

You are in full TDS mode.

I wonder if you care about anything but beating up on Trump.

Myself, I care about the lives of my family and friends, I care about people I have never met, and I will take all precautions to protect myself and others. I apolitically support those who are working on a solution to this crisis.

I don't have the need to assign blame on someone I personally dislike for purely political reasons. I don't think many of you can say the same and I'm sorry you feel that way.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
And you truly have no proof that different actions would have lessened the numbers. You have no idea of the number of people that have been saved (perhaps millions) by the actions already taken.



thats really not true, you make decent inferences based on how other countries acted vs their data, the US did/doing particularly poor


pbrowne
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

bill i just don't understand how you can think ignoring best scientific advice is doing a good job.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits


You are in full TDS mode.




Your guy, on national television, speaking to the american people asked his medical folks to look into ingesting disinfectant. You denied that. Yesterday he said hes been taking the hydrochloroquine. Theres your TDS for you. Bam.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:15 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock

thats really not true, you make decent inferences based on how other countries acted vs their data, the US did/doing particularly poor


That sounds like a Joe Biden sentence.



Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:17 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne
bill i just don't understand how you can think ignoring best scientific advice is doing a good job.


Specifics Pat.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:18 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits


I don't have the need to assign blame on someone I personally dislike for purely political reasons. I don't think many of you can say the same and I'm sorry you feel that way.


its not about assigning blame though it certainly is important to understand how poorly this has been handled...we're still in this and still don't have a clear plan to manage thru...you monitor the data and decide what its telling you and calibrate a repsonse, rinse and repeat..


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:18 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock

Your guy, on national television, speaking to the american people asked his medical folks to look into ingesting disinfectant. You denied that. Yesterday he said hes been taking the hydrochloroquine. Theres your TDS for you. Bam.


You prove my point. Thank you.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock

its not about assigning blame though it certainly is important to understand how poorly this has been handled...we're still in this and still don't have a clear plan to manage thru...you monitor the data and decide what its telling you and calibrate a repsonse, rinse and repeat..


And assign blame.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock

Your guy, on national television, speaking to the american people asked his medical folks to look into ingesting disinfectant. You denied that. Yesterday he said hes been taking the hydrochloroquine. Theres your TDS for you. Bam.


You prove my point. Thank you.


I assure, I did not.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock

its not about assigning blame though it certainly is important to understand how poorly this has been handled...we're still in this and still don't have a clear plan to manage thru...you monitor the data and decide what its telling you and calibrate a repsonse, rinse and repeat..


And assign blame.


yes, "and" primarily course correct and recognize failures...its how you get better at something or really anything


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 02:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Guys I have essential work to do.

Have a nice TDS day.



Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/19/20 03:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The bars open?

pbrowne
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 03:05 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

bill, i know this is a waste of time but because we have met, played some music together i will list just a few "specifics":

On 2/28/20 Trump said and I quote: ""Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. You know that, right? Coronavirus. They're politicizing it ... And this is their new hoax."

The CDC had already warned the public the threat was real.

Trump encouraged people to take an untested drug even though his own administration's scientific staff told him it could have dangerous side effects.

His reckless ignoring of advice re: distancing, masks, etc.

It's one thing to support conservative ideas; it's quite another to completely ignore the glaring faults with this president.

I know you have said here that you realize he is an asshole which means we agree on at least one thing.

He reminds me of the sort of semi-drunk jerk seen in almost every bar i've ever played - a complete jackass who lies all the time and thinks people are to stupid to realize it.

please, for the sake of everyone who lives in America, don't vote for him in November - all of us will live to regret the American future he wants to create.

i'm done w/ this - i promised myself i wouldn't do this anymore and now i have to retire to my den and flog myself.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/19/20 03:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You can't possibly prove someone would have handled this better, all you can offer is an opinion. Using TDS or TCS doesn't do much either. There are some facts though. When something like this happens you need real leadership, I think everyone would agree with this. Leadership involves being responsible, truthful and honest, I hope all agree with this. Is that what we are getting? You don't have to suffer from TDS to know Drumpf is not truthful or honest and have you ever heard Drumpf take responsibility for something that went wrong? He is more like a carnival barker salesman. I don't know how people factor Drumpf's closed Charity and University scams and somehow think he is an honest person.
So there is the problem, we need real leadership and we are getting nothing but a sales spin.


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 04:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: pbrowne


Trump encouraged people to take an untested drug even though his own administration's scientific staff told him it could have dangerous side effects.


It's one thing to support conservative ideas; it's quite another to completely ignore the glaring faults with this president.




and its quite another thing to deny trump even said he wanted to look into ingesting disinfectant...where do you go from there?


calypso
(Planeteer)
05/19/20 04:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

If the administration had said “we believe the best response to the pandemic is local, so we will leave decisions in the hands of the locally elected leadership and offer federal support as much as possible” THAT would have been a plan. It might even have some merit.
If the administration had said “we don’t have enough tests, but we are working to get more” THAT would have been true and understandable (instead of President Trump’s boast about leading the world in test availability).
Now hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic? He seems to delight in willful ignorance.
The conservatives will get something valuable from this administration: a lesser role for government. Not because the government is smaller or the “swamp is drained”, but because no one will trust the federal government in the future. It has become a source of low comedy.
It doesn’t matter what my party affiliation is or my political views – I DESERVE BETTER.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/20/20 02:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You may want to consider moving away, it's only gonna get worst for the US. Buy yourself a little more time.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/20/20 02:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Utah reports 8 more virus deaths — the highest daily death toll for the state yet

Tuesday also marked the highest increase of hospitalizations in a single day since state officials began recording data in March


the local politicians say we're going in the right direction, and everything is open, more or less.


would YOU trust them?


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/20/20 02:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Time will be the tell of this story.

Webster
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 02:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I knew this part of the story was coming.

Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show


Doofie
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 02:23 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Sadly people unwittingly fall to the virus and are called warriors, and they are posthumously awarded the current administration's virtual badge of honor.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 03:05 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Webster
I knew this part of the story was coming.

Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show


When you call everything that you don't want to have to deal with a Hoax, odds are your luck will run out eventually. This was Drumpf's luck running out. The fighting a war spin allows the deaths that didn't have to happen to be dismissed as collateral damage.


BmC
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 12:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

If I come down with covid and have to go to the hospital, please make it a hospital like this.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 01:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso

It doesn’t matter what my party affiliation is or my political views – I DESERVE BETTER.


Amen brother. We all do.


JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 01:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
If I come down with covid and have to go to the hospital, please make it a hospital like this.


That was somewhat unexpected to find here, and I suspect that some folks are thankful that you shared it. I saw it on their web site yesterday, and found it very interesting, and I "heard" she was not aware of her appearance to some extent. \:\) The comments on the story were quite interesting, some were very comedic, and you may be interested in reading them. \:\)


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 02:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Grandpa be looking like “if I could still get it up I’d have an erection right now.”

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 02:55 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

A new high for coronavirus deaths in California as counties push ahead with reopening

California recorded 132 new coronavirus-related fatalities Tuesday — the most in a single day since the pandemic began — as counties across the state continue cementing plans to reopen their economies.

The highest number of deaths previously reported in a single day statewide was 117 in late April. Tuesday’s rise, which comes on a day when data from the previous weekend is typically released, pushed the state’s death toll past 3,400. The number of confirmed cases statewide has climbed to 83,864, according to data compiled by the Los Angeles Times.

it's dumb to not pay attention to this.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 04:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Nobody knows a fucking thing. Which “experts” should we be following?



https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi...a-texas/611935/


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 04:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Should we listen to these scientists?

https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-lockdown-measures-104322610.html

Or these other scientists?

https://www.firstpost.com/health/anthony...ar-8361921.html

Nobody knows a fucking thing.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 04:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
Should we listen to these scientists?

https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-lockdown-measures-104322610.html

Or these other scientists?

https://www.firstpost.com/health/anthony...ar-8361921.html

Nobody knows a fucking thing.

from your first link:
 Quote:
However, the easing measures – which include allowing unlimited exercise and a potential reopening of schools – do not go far enough, according to Tom Jefferson and Carl Heneghan from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine (CEBM).

They argue that there is now “no alternative” but to end lockdown in order to “start the engine of society again
”.


it's not the job of people in the field of Medicine to ponder on the economic ramifications of all this.
especially not one like the CEBM, who's job is
 Quote:
an academic-led centre dedicated to the practice, teaching and dissemination of high quality evidence-based medicine to improve healthcare in everyday clinical practice


there's experts who are paid to do that job.
experts who i'm sure the various governments are consulting.
we all know the economic engine is gonna suffer greatly, i don't need a doctor to tell me that.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 05:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

They also point out it’s needed in order to keep the tax revenue flowing in so essential services, which probably include medical services , don’t collapse.

It should also be pointed out that economics is a science.

So, for politicians to strictly and wholly “follow” the medical science alone, that is not political leadership, but dereliction of duty. It’s politicians’ jobs to assess and address things holistically.

Similar to your point, if the plan is to just follow the medical science, then why not just go ahead and make the medical scientists politicians?



Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 05:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I have a new friend who has been a nurse her entire professional life. her company hires her out to work at crisis spots and she just spent the last 3 months fighting Corona in Austin and then Colorado.

80 hour weeks. People dying every single day. Co-workers getting infected and dying or critically ill. She would leave the hospital spent, only to be confronted by small crowds of angry screaming people telling her "Stop lying about this pandemic! We need our jobs back!" She says one guy actually spit on her.

She retired two weeks ago, got tested negative, got on a plane and came to San Miguel de Allende to buy a house and recover.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 05:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
They also point out it’s needed in order to keep the tax revenue flowing in so essential services, which probably include medical services , don’t collapse.

It should also be pointed out that economics is a science.

So, for politicians to strictly and wholly “follow” the medical science alone, that is not political leadership, but dereliction of duty. It’s politicians’ jobs to assess and address things holistically.

Similar to your point, if the plan is to just follow the medical science, then why not just go ahead and make the medical scientists politicians?


it's the job of high-level officials to listen to experts in pandemics, economists and others.
then decide where the line should be drawn.
it's a balancing act.

but the 2 doctors in the link you provided are totally unqualified to comment publicly on their opinions about the economic of all this.
they should just keep doing what they do presently: enable policies to make sure the equipment is properly sterilized,
and that nobody smokes in the surgical room during an operation. lol \:p


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 05:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

you deconfine too early, and the costs of all the deaths and derivative effects cost more than the damage to the economy would.

you do it too late, then the damage caused by the economic collapse is worse than the disease itself.

it's a fine line.
a very fine line...



ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 06:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I don’t disagree. But perhaps the collective experts could cone up with “in between” approach that’s more, uh, surgical, if you will, rather than use a sledgehammer.

Of course, I certainly agree a huge part of the problem rests with the White House, but individual states and governors have fubard as well. IIRC, when the lockdown started, our own governor Jelly Belly Pritzker said, presumably leaning on some scientific guidance, that a two week lockdown would get this under wraps, and on the road to recovery....and yet here we are 9 weeks later with no more clarity or certainty about much of anything. And the future for a huge swath of the population has been permanently damaged.

Flatten the curve, prolong the pain.

Failure at every level.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 06:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i would submit that it's a glaring failure of democracy and capitalism.
it's also hard to have a good grasp on things, if the head of the country is a totally deranged would-be dictator.

anyhow...

as deconfinement, the curve has not flatten one bit in Canada, as of today.

it still looks like Mt Everest or K2 ! ;\)

it'll be hard to see what really is happening, until we're at the middle-end of June, imo...
the restos here are open ONLY for takeouts and delivery.
the rules will relax a little starting next wekk, i think.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 06:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://youtu.be/XY5KTVA_2ys

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/21/20 07:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

two weeeeeks !!! lol

BmC
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 09:06 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"it's dumb to not pay attention to this."

Man, this thing is gonna explode, and very soon. I don't think we've seen anything yet. People today are not capable of doing what is necessary. It's a me me me world.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 09:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
If the administration had said “we believe the best response to the pandemic is local, so we will leave decisions in the hands of the locally elected leadership and offer federal support as much as possible” THAT would have been a plan. It might even have some merit.
If the administration had said “we don’t have enough tests, but we are working to get more” THAT would have been true and understandable (instead of President Trump’s boast about leading the world in test availability).


This is pretty well said.

I’d just add that I think what we need in these, as in all times and for all things, is a national strategy layered upon the variety of local strategies. We need cohesion at the national level, that still allows for flexibility at the local level. Always. And now more than ever.


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 09:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank

I think what we need


....is a huge meteor to hit the reset button. \:\)


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/21/20 09:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

\:D



C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/22/20 05:51 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

No photo description available.

ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 06:40 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Classy.

ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 06:47 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

You know, I wish I had been keeping an official tally. But it’s pretty disheartening the range of articles you see from supposed “experts” from medical to economic to political saying completely different things.

The information highway has permanently paved over the truth and we’re never digging it back up.



moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:43 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
You know, I wish I had been keeping an official tally. But it’s pretty disheartening the range of articles you see from supposed “experts” from medical to economic to political saying completely different things.

The information highway has permanently paved over the truth and we’re never digging it back up.



it's up tp the reader mostly to sort out the rubbish.
not exactly an easy job to do.

i think it is Scandinavia if i recall properly, where kids are taught at school at a young age to spot fake news, propaganda and disinformation.

that should be mandatory everywhere.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:45 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Oh sure. Who gets to make the call as to what’s “fake news.”

Can you smell the transparency!







JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:46 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What does transparency smell like?

ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:52 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Apparently like hot poo.



moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:54 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
Oh sure. Who gets to make the call as to what’s “fake news.”


you are.

and you better look sharp, because we're gonna need a few good men.


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:58 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

So my point stands.

“The information highway has destroyed the truth.”







JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 08:01 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

How about "fake fakeness", does that have a smell?

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/22/20 08:06 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank
So my point stands.

“The information highway has destroyed the truth.”


no, democracy can't work in countries where too many people are not educated.
to be perfectly frank.

if kids can be taught to spot fake news, so can adults.



JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 10:10 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Are there any educational books available, that teach how to be perfectly frank? \:\)

JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 10:29 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are


Speaking of education, here are some funny book titles that I found on the internet:

Sunday April 5, 2009 Will Nediger Theme: In the Nonfiction Section (Add HOW to a familiar phrase)

23A: Handbook of euphemisms?: HOW TO PUT IT MILDLY

37A: Manual for talk show guests? HOW TO BE ANNOUNCED

44A: Guide for sore losers?: HOW TO BLAME

62A: Self-help book for compulsive liars?: HOW TO BE PERFECTLY FRANK

78A: Reference work for modelists?: HOW TO SCALE

85A: Vade mecum for neologists?: HOW TO COIN A PHRASE

105A: Therapeutic book for blowhards?: HOW TO SAY THE LEAST


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 07:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



Fauci: Opening too soon could have serious consequences.

https://abc7ny.com/dr-anthony-fauci-coronavirus-new-york-reopen-ny-news/6174734/

Also Fauci: Staying closed for too long could cause irreparable damage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/22/dr-antho...ble-damage.html



Slabraton
(Planeteer)
05/22/20 08:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: ulank


Fauci: Opening too soon could have serious consequences.

https://abc7ny.com/dr-anthony-fauci-coronavirus-new-york-reopen-ny-news/6174734/

Also Fauci: Staying closed for too long could cause irreparable damage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/22/dr-antho...ble-damage.html



Doni Boy is The Decider. Nobody else. The buck stops with the President. Nobody else.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/22/20 09:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Slabraton
 Originally Posted By: ulank


Fauci: Opening too soon could have serious consequences.

https://abc7ny.com/dr-anthony-fauci-coronavirus-new-york-reopen-ny-news/6174734/

Also Fauci: Staying closed for too long could cause irreparable damage.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/22/dr-antho...ble-damage.html



Doni Boy is The Decider. Nobody else. The buck stops with the President. Nobody else.


thankfully, the "stable genius" is in charge, so you folks are all sorted out ! lol


Webster
(Planeteer)
05/24/20 03:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are




'The price you pay': Sweden's 'herd immunity' experiment backfires


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/24/20 03:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



oops


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/24/20 03:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



A good read for those that are stupid


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 12:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Thank God for COVID-19. Otherwise we might never have the opportunity to read an article on ... how to do our fucking laundry.

OMG.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/face-mask-may-carry-covid-110242742.html



Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 01:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Don’t be an ass. It’s not on how to do your laundry, it’s how to sanitize PPE equipment- which any healthcare professional will tell you is something they get specifically trained on, and most people don’t know how to do it correctly, and may in fact be infecting themselves or others

ulank
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 01:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Don’t be a moron.

1) At the onset of this, the “experts” all pointed out that good old soap and water would kill the virus. Hence all the reminders to: “Wash your hands!” I don’t know about you, but I tend to do my laundry with detergent which some might even say is a form of soap. So I’ve been a little baffled whenever I would see “how do I sanitize my mask” articles (of which there have been plenty more than the one I just posted.) I mean, my thought was always, um, soap?

2) If you, not too difficultly, parse through the bullet points, you’ll see that:

a) you can just throw it in with your regular laundry using the appropriate setting for whatever material your mask is made of (oh, you mean like all my other laundry! and...

b) you can dry it in your dryer or leave it out to air dry! (oh, you mean like all my other laundry!



The information highway has paved over truth, and common sense, and we’re never digging it back up.

Thank you for participating.





ulank
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 01:56 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://youtu.be/lJhHjACjJjA

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 01:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What is your problem? Most people have never had to wear protective face masks outside of a hospital setting, and they are disposables ones anyway. Why would they automatically know how best to sanitize them ?
The original CDC article also specified the correct way to remove them, which is even more important.
Just because you’re a genius and have everything figured out doesn’t mean that everyone else knows how to do it.
Like I said, don’t be an ass


JohnM
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 02:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I briefly looked at the Yahoo article post above. It reminded me of this photoghraph...




Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 02:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

How we got here.

Webster
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 02:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Dude - resize that photo. Or delete. Please.

ulank
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 02:46 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
What is your problem? Most people have never had to wear protective face masks outside of a hospital setting, and they are disposables ones anyway. Why would they automatically know how best to sanitize them ?
The original CDC article also specified the correct way to remove them, which is even more important.
Just because you’re a genius and have everything figured out doesn’t mean that everyone else knows how to do it.
Like I said, don’t be an ass


If connecting two dots - that soap kills the virus and detergent is soap - makes me a genius then I think you’re just proving my point.

My other issue is, the article could have used about 600 fewer words.

“The quick fix? Throw it in with your regular laundry.”

Sure, you get bonus “hand wash” instructions which seem unnecessarily complex if heat, soap and water otherwise do the trick but it doesn’t make it any less sad that this is what our collective societal intellect has been reduced to.





\:\(


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

People are scared, living in a whole new world, and looking for guidance and support. This is especially true for older people who are the most vulnerable. If being a supercilious ass is your thing, then knock yourself out.
You didn’t mention the correct approach to removing the masks, which is even more important than sanitizing them.
I suppose that was like connecting two dots for you as well


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What we have here is the gluteus maximus calling the buttocks ass.

Liquidirt
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:30 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
If being a supercilious ass is your thing, then knock yourself out.


Why do smart people like yourself resort to name calling. Please try to refrain from name calling and just make your point.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:31 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

It is the gluteus maximus, not maximums

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Liquidirt
 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
If being a supercilious ass is your thing, then knock yourself out.


Why do smart people like yourself resort to name calling. Please try to refrain from name calling and just make your point.

I did. My point was that he is being a supercilious ass


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:50 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Another theory

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 03:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
It is the gluteus maximus, not maximums


My phone thinks it is Mr. Know it all......kind of like Dave.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 04:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

There is an infinite universe of things that I don’t know.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/25/20 04:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I am a Specialist, I know more and more about less and less.

Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 04:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
It is the gluteus maximus, not maximums


My phone thinks it is Mr. Know it all......kind of like Dave.


When I insult someone, I do try to go the extra mile to get it right. I feel it is the least I can do, right ?


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 05:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Actually it was meant to be a joke.
If you want to call it an insult that's your choice.


I suppose we could compromise and call it an affectionate insult.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 06:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Works for me.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/25/20 06:22 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
It is the gluteus maximus, not maximums


Speak for yourself. I definitely have gained the "COVID 19" and mine is now definitely a maximums, according to my jeans.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/25/20 06:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Then the correct term would be Gluteus Maximus Maximums. Loosely translated from Latin it is Fat Ass

calypso
(Planeteer)
05/29/20 12:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Singing is a "superspreader".
https://https://www.middleclassartist.co...-public-singing
My community theater group has already postponed a big musical from March to December. Now we are wondering if it is even possible to have a performance at all. If we test everyone in the cast before and during the run, is the false negative rate low enough to assure the audience that they are safe?


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/29/20 02:53 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
If we test everyone in the cast before and during the run, is the false negative rate low enough to assure the audience that they are safe?

no.

the only things sure in life are taxes.

and death. ;\)
----
being tested negative only means you didn't have it *at the time* the test was done.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/29/20 03:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Looks like the impatient Liberty crowd is generating second shutdowns. Their concerns for their Liberty will probably result in destroying businesses with shutdown #2.

BmC
(Planeteer)
05/29/20 03:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"Looks like the impatient Liberty crowd is generating second shutdowns. Their concerns for their Liberty will probably result in destroying businesses with shutdown #2."

I did not see this coming. But have no fear, Trump has stated, there will be no 2nd shutdown.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/30/20 11:25 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

From an article in the Washington Post:

The number of people reported to have died of the novel coronavirus in the United States surpassed 100,000 this week, a grim marker of lives lost directly to the disease, but an analysis of overall deaths during the pandemic shows that the nation probably reached a similar terrible milestone three weeks ago.

Between March 1 and May 9, the nation recorded an estimated 101,600 excess deaths, or deaths beyond the number that would normally be expected for that time of year, according to an analysis conducted for The Washington Post by a research team led by the Yale School of Public Health. That figure reflects about 26,000 more fatalities than were attributed to covid-19 on death certificates during that period, according to federal data.

Those 26,000 fatalities were not necessarily caused directly by the virus. They could also include people who died as a result of the epidemic but not from the disease itself, such as those who were afraid to seek medical help for unrelated illnesses. Increases or decreases in other categories of deaths, such as motor vehicle accidents, also affect the count.

Such “excess death” analyses are a standard tool used by epidemiologists to gauge the true toll of infectious-disease outbreaks and other widespread disasters.

The Yale-led team used historical death data to estimate the expected number of deaths for each week this year, adjusting for such factors as seasonal variation and the intensity of flu epidemics. To calculate excess deaths, the researchers subtracted their estimate of expected deaths from the overall number of deaths reported by the National Center for Health Statistics.

The covid-19 death toll, a key data point in shaping the public-health response to the pandemic, has become a political flash point. Allies of President Trump have claimed that the government tally is inflated, contending that it includes people with other medical conditions who would have died with or without an infection.

The Yale-led analysis, however, suggests that the actual number of people who have died because of the pandemic is far greater than the official government death tallies. The researchers estimated that the number of excess deaths between March 1 and May 9 was most likely between 97,500 and 105,500.


Story here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/investigations/coronavirus-excess-deaths-may/?


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/30/20 11:45 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

it sure is a staggering number of deaths in such a short time...and for sure its under counted but yes a delta view vs nromal counts gets you closer to the truth..and yet still there is no comprehesive Federal plan for testing, no ramping up of PPE production...the head shipping clerk has moved on and has also moved on from the recent riots...

Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 05:33 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What will be the result of the protests in the cities on the number of cases?

If we don't see a huge spike in cases, what becomes of the narrative that has been pushed for the last few months?


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 10:39 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
What will be the result of the protests in the cities on the number of cases?

If we don't see a huge spike in cases, what becomes of the narrative that has been pushed for the last few months?


You don’t have to worry anymore, the economy Is reopened and the spread Of the virus is now over.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 01:41 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
What will be the result of the protests in the cities on the number of cases?

If we don't see a huge spike in cases, what becomes of the narrative that has been pushed for the last few months?


It would have been wrong. Let’s hope that’s the case. You do know that it isn’t just a US “narrative”, right ?
This thing is now out of control in Brazil, India and other third world countries. Is that also a narrative?


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 04:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris

This thing is now out of control in Brazil, India and other third world countries. Is that also a narrative?


Why would we be surprised that a virus that we haven't developed a vaccine for or an immunity to is running rampant in areas with people living on top of each other, little or no clean water and no medical infrastructure to handle the population?

Trump isn't their president. Who are you going to blame?


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 04:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris

This thing is now out of control in Brazil, India and other third world countries. Is that also a narrative?


Why would we be surprised that a virus that we haven't developed a vaccine for or an immunity to is running rampant in areas with people living on top of each other, little or no clean water and no medical infrastructure to handle the population?

Trump isn't their president. Who are you going to blame?


Well, in Brazil I blame their leader who is a a Trump wannabe. Like Trump, he has ignored it, denied it, and lied about it.
In India, they did have a lockdown, but that didn’t really work because of the crowding. There is little anybody can do there to contain or mitigate it. That’s the unfortunate reality.
In the West, they can, and have so far, contained it in in a number of countries. We don’t know yet if it will stay contained when things open up. It doesn’t look good.
Using the term “narrative” to label what has been happening around the world is not good. It implies a manufactured spin being put on things. There is nothing manufactured about what is happening. There is no spin. It is real.


Vanillagrits
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 04:28 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
Using the term “narrative” to label what has been happening around the world is not good. It implies a manufactured spin being put on things.


It depends on which definition of narrative you use.

Definition of narrative (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: something that is narrated : STORY, ACCOUNT
He is writing a detailed narrative of his life on the island.

b: a way of presenting or understanding a situation or series of events that reflects and promotes a particular point of view or set of values


Looks like I'm type A and you're type B


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 04:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Dave Morris
Using the term “narrative” to label what has been happening around the world is not good. It implies a manufactured spin being put on things.


It depends on which definition of narrative you use.

Definition of narrative (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: something that is narrated : STORY, ACCOUNT
He is writing a detailed narrative of his life on the island.

b: a way of presenting or understanding a situation or series of events that reflects and promotes a particular point of view or set of values


Looks like I'm type A and you're type B


your use was type b


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 04:40 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
What will be the result of the protests in the cities on the number of cases?

If we don't see a huge spike in cases, what becomes of the narrative that has been pushed for the last few months?


When you talk about pushing a narrative, that is clearly an example of type b. Actually, it is the literal definition of it.
If you can’t see that, there is nothing more to say


ulank
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 06:24 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
From an article in the Washington Post:

The number of people reported to have died of the novel coronavirus in the United States surpassed 100,000 this week, a grim marker of lives lost directly to the disease, but an analysis of overall deaths during the pandemic shows that the nation probably reached a similar terrible milestone three weeks ago.

Between March 1 and May 9, the nation recorded an estimated 101,600 excess deaths, or deaths beyond the number that would normally be expected for that time of year, according to an analysis conducted for The Washington Post by a research team led by the Yale School of Public Health. That figure reflects about 26,000 more fatalities than were attributed to covid-19 on death certificates during that period, according to federal data.

Those 26,000 fatalities were not necessarily caused directly by the virus. They could also include people who died as a result of the epidemic but not from the disease itself, such as those who were afraid to seek medical help for unrelated illnesses. Increases or decreases in other categories of deaths, such as motor vehicle accidents, also affect the count.

Such “excess death” analyses are a standard tool used by epidemiologists to gauge the true toll of infectious-disease outbreaks and other widespread disasters.

The Yale-led team used historical death data to estimate the expected number of deaths for each week this year, adjusting for such factors as seasonal variation and the intensity of flu epidemics. To calculate excess deaths, the researchers subtracted their estimate of expected deaths from the overall number of deaths reported by the National Center for Health Statistics.

The covid-19 death toll, a key data point in shaping the public-health response to the pandemic, has become a political flash point. Allies of President Trump have claimed that the government tally is inflated, contending that it includes people with other medical conditions who would have died with or without an infection.

The Yale-led analysis, however, suggests that the actual number of people who have died because of the pandemic is far greater than the official government death tallies. The researchers estimated that the number of excess deaths between March 1 and May 9 was most likely between 97,500 and 105,500.


Story here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/investigations/coronavirus-excess-deaths-may/?


Deaths of despair.

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1657819#Post1657819


SkyWave
(Planeteer)
05/31/20 08:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The number of deaths from COVID-19 has been undercounted in the USA. In Washington state, for example, it now appears that there were coronavirus deaths in January 2020 that were not counted, as there was not yet awareness of the pandemic and the deaths were attributed to other causes. Those cases are now being reviewed and may end up being added to the count.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
05/31/20 09:02 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

even without the full numbers and with the shenanigans, it should be easy to figure out how many deaths are COVID-related, compared to the seasonal average.

calypso
(Planeteer)
06/01/20 04:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The death toll gets the headlines, but it is the hospitalization rate that we should watch.
Without total lockdown we can’t stop the spread. Most of us are going to get it. Most will not get sick enough to be hospitalized. Of those that do, some will get well no matter what. Some will die no matter what. A small number will survive BECAUSE they are able to get treatment. That is the small number of people that we need to protect.


SkyWave
(Planeteer)
06/01/20 05:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: calypso
Without total lockdown we can’t stop the spread. Most of us are going to get it.


Actually, we can stop the spread without total lockdown. With widely available testing and contact tracing, the disease can be contained. This has worked in other countries.

The problem is that this administration is too incompetent to provide widespread testing. It cannot even provide medical workers with masks and PPE. This is the result of the GOP dismantling and defunding the public health system.


BmC
(Planeteer)
07/03/20 05:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

But china....

article.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/03/20 06:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
But china....

article.


The good news is we might be welcomed in our fellow shithole country Brazil


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/03/20 06:23 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: SkyWave
 Originally Posted By: calypso
Without total lockdown we can’t stop the spread. Most of us are going to get it.



The problem is that this administration is too incompetent to provide widespread testing. It cannot even provide medical workers with masks and PPE. This is the result of the GOP dismantling and defunding the public health system.


At least they got the smaller government fantasy they have always dreamed of. Working out great isn't it.

And of course the virus disappearing in the warm weather proves to be wrong. How many wrongs until you figure out something isn't right?


BmC
(Planeteer)
07/03/20 07:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Read another article that Spain had re-tested some samples from over a year ago and found SARS-COV2.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/03/20 08:12 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
Read another article that Spain had re-tested some samples from over a year ago and found SARS-COV2.


Chiner is the bad guy, He already instructed the Cult that is the spin they must follow.

Only way that might change if Rush or Alex tell Him Mexico is responsible.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/03/20 08:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Here's kind-of an interesting take:

Alex Castellanos, a veteran Republican strategist, said the divide over whether to cover one’s face is, like many things in the Trump era, political.

“Mask-wearing has become a totem, a secular religious symbol,” Castellanos said. “Christians wear crosses, Muslims wear a hijab, and members of the Church of Secular Science bow to the Gods of Data by wearing a mask as their symbol, demonstrating that they are the elite; smarter, more rational, and morally superior to everyone else.”



What an idiot.


BmC
(Planeteer)
07/03/20 09:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

"What an idiot."

Indeed. A mask is a mask, nothing fucking political about it. Did you happen to see and hear the Lt. Gov of Texas, basically calling Fauci an idiot, wrong on everything. lol


Andy McClelland
(Planeteer)
07/03/20 09:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Yeah - what an idiot.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
07/03/20 09:10 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
"What an idiot."

Indeed. A mask is a mask, nothing fucking political about it. Did you happen to see and hear the Lt. Gov of Texas, basically calling Fauci an idiot, wrong on everything. lol


Ha ha yes...what a moron


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/03/20 09:16 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
"What an idiot."

Indeed. A mask is a mask, nothing fucking political about it. Did you happen to see and hear the Lt. Gov of Texas, basically calling Fauci an idiot, wrong on everything. lol


Yes, Dan Patrick, what an Idiot. Fauci wrong yet Texas is having issues.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 01:04 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I was on a boat on Cape Cod for the fourth. I didn't leave the boat, the beaches will filled with people, no distance at all, no masks, it looked like images of Florida.
I never saw so many flags. Most were Trump 2020 flags, some said I Don't Give A Fuck About Your Feelings, others said Enough With The Bullshit. And a lot of Blue American flags.
Somebody could make some money making Trump 2020 masks. That is the only way those who just don't care about anyone but themselves will ever put on a mask.
This is Masshole??? We are so screwed.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

you know, if i was young again and that i could live my life all over again ...


and if i was a young Coronavirus, i'd travel to the the USA.

the Promised Land !!! lol


Arthur
(Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:11 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

In the eyes of a COVID virus, the USA really is the promised land! Especially the cosy warm southern regions.
We europeans are of course the bad guys, the segregist people who are fighting the Covid race.
;\) ;\)


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:50 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are



C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
I was on a boat on Cape Cod for the fourth. I didn't leave the boat, the beaches will filled with people, no distance at all, no masks, it looked like images of Florida.
I never saw so many flags. Most were Trump 2020 flags, some said I Don't Give A Fuck About Your Feelings, others said Enough With The Bullshit. And a lot of Blue American flags.
Somebody could make some money making Trump 2020 masks. That is the only way those who just don't care about anyone but themselves will ever put on a mask.
This is Masshole??? We are so screwed.


We closed all beaches for the weekend --- bit of outdoor dinning --only ..


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Coronavirus can float in air and WHO and CDC should tell people that.

may be the knowledge that's been missing,
as dumb asses and politicians scratch their head asking "why, why?"


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
07/06/20 02:43 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
Coronavirus can float in air and WHO and CDC should tell people that.

may be the knowledge that's been missing,
as dumb asses and politicians scratch their head asking "why, why?"


I really don't believe they're intelligent enough (or even give a crap) to perform EITHER of those tasks, gonz.

. . Falcon


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 03:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
I was on a boat on Cape Cod for the fourth. I didn't leave the boat, the beaches will filled with people, no distance at all, no masks, it looked like images of Florida.
I never saw so many flags. Most were Trump 2020 flags, some said I Don't Give A Fuck About Your Feelings, others said Enough With The Bullshit. And a lot of Blue American flags.
Somebody could make some money making Trump 2020 masks. That is the only way those who just don't care about anyone but themselves will ever put on a mask.
This is Masshole??? We are so screwed.


Really? I know people who were in Chatham on the beach and it didn't seem crowded at all. Though they did say that Chatham itself seemed like every other July day in Chatham, tons of people, no social distancing but everyone was wearing masks.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 04:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
I was on a boat on Cape Cod for the fourth. I didn't leave the boat, the beaches will filled with people, no distance at all, no masks, it looked like images of Florida.
I never saw so many flags. Most were Trump 2020 flags, some said I Don't Give A Fuck About Your Feelings, others said Enough With The Bullshit. And a lot of Blue American flags.
Somebody could make some money making Trump 2020 masks. That is the only way those who just don't care about anyone but themselves will ever put on a mask.
This is Masshole??? We are so screwed.


Really? I know people who were in Chatham on the beach and it didn't seem crowded at all. Though they did say that Chatham itself seemed like every other July day in Chatham, tons of people, no social distancing but everyone was wearing masks.


This was on the Bass River Dennis, a different place than Chatham. Chatham is restrictive for public access. I didn't see one mask, not a one. This pics just show a section, it was like this all over this area.





gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/06/20 08:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Six more Utahns have died from the coronavirus, making Monday one of the biggest single-day jump in fatalities since the beginning of the pandemic.

And with 22 new hospitalizations reported, there have been 412 Utahns admitted to hospitals in the past two weeks — the worst 14-day stretch yet.

the records keep climbing,
the hospitals are getting fuller,
and more people than not, maskless.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 12:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Sometimes I wonder if some people are just so miserable and angry they just want to die and take everyone with them.

Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 02:56 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

If there is one thing that Covid hates, it is our freedom.

C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 03:32 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Closing down again --- not sure exact venues -- but > all live music indoors for sure. Hope the gym can keep their doors open ..

SkyWave
(Planeteer)
07/07/20 04:19 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

SARS-CoV-2 is a virus. It does not have a brain, intentions or hatred.

The USA blew dealing with the virus because of stupid and callous leadership.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/opini...pgtype=Homepage


BmC
(Planeteer)
07/07/20 12:52 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

But China...

article.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 02:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When the virus first emerged in China, epidemiologists scrambled to understand how it spread from person to person. One of their first tasks was to estimate the average number of people each sick person infected, or what epidemiologists call the reproductive number.

The new coronavirus turned out to have a reproductive number somewhere between two and three. It’s impossible to pin down an exact figure, since people’s behavior can make it easier or harder for the virus to spread. By going into lockdown, for instance, Massachusetts drove its reproductive number down from 2.2 at the beginning of March to 1 by the end of the month; it’s now at .74.

This averaged figure can also be misleading because it masks the variability of spread from one person to the next. If nine out of 10 people don’t pass on a virus at all, while the 10th passes it to 20 people, the average would still be two.

In some diseases, such as influenza and smallpox, a large fraction of infected people pass on the pathogen to a few more. These diseases tend to grow steadily and slowly. “Flu can really plod along,” said Kristin Nelson, an assistant professor at Emory University.

But other diseases, like measles and SARS, are prone to sudden flares, with only a few infected people spreading the disease.


Now researchers are trying to figure out why so few people spread the virus to so many. They’re trying to answer three questions: Who are the superspreaders? When does superspreading take place? And where?


motown59
(Planeteer)
07/07/20 02:19 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: BmC
But China...

article.


Four minutes reading about dr Tom Jefferson told me all I need to render an opinion on that article.


calypso
(Planeteer)
07/07/20 04:41 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

In lighter news...
The country of Estonia has done a good job of limiting the spread of the coronavirus. The citizens there are looking forward to relaxing the 2 meter social distancing rule, so they can go back to their usual 5 meters.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 08:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Tuesday brought Utah’s biggest increase in known coronavirus hospital admissions yet, with 49 new patients reported hospitalized since Monday.

There were 197 Utahns receiving hospital care for COVID-19 as of Tuesday, the Utah Department of Health reported, with more than 60 percent of the state’s intensive care unit beds occupied.


Memphis Monroe
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 09:26 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We know how and why we got here. Now, all these months later, we need a new thread discussing why we're still here. The lack of leadership from the top down in many states, like Florida and Texas, is beyond stunning. It's fucking criminal, and the American people need to get serious about wearing masks and cleaning house ASAP. Our governor needs to be removed immediately because he's unduly putting Florida citizens in danger just so he can kiss up to the orange cheeto and chief.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 09:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

When the virus first emerged in China, epidemiologists scrambled to understand how it spread from person to person. One of their first tasks was to estimate the average number of people each sick person infected, or what epidemiologists call the reproductive number.

The new coronavirus turned out to have a reproductive number somewhere between two and three. It’s impossible to pin down an exact figure, since people’s behavior can make it easier or harder for the virus to spread. By going into lockdown, for instance, Massachusetts drove its reproductive number down from 2.2 at the beginning of March to 1 by the end of the month; it’s now at .74.

This averaged figure can also be misleading because it masks the variability of spread from one person to the next. If nine out of 10 people don’t pass on a virus at all, while the 10th passes it to 20 people, the average would still be two.

In some diseases, such as influenza and smallpox, a large fraction of infected people pass on the pathogen to a few more. These diseases tend to grow steadily and slowly. “Flu can really plod along,” said Kristin Nelson, an assistant professor at Emory University.

But other diseases, like measles and SARS, are prone to sudden flares, with only a few infected people spreading the disease.


Now researchers are trying to figure out why so few people spread the virus to so many. They’re trying to answer three questions: Who are the superspreaders? When does superspreading take place? And where?


C Jo Go
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/07/20 10:49 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Salinas, CA --The City of Salinas announced today a new emergency Executive Order adopting the California Department of Public Health's (CDPH) guidance for the use of face coverings. The Order requires compliance with the CDPH's guidance regarding the use of face coverings within the city of Salinas enforceable by administration citation. As of today, July 6, 2020, the City will enforce the mandatory wearing of face coverings throughout the City, as required by CDPH Guidance, with a fine of $100 for the first violation.

In his Executive Order, City Manager Ray Corpuz cites to the increasing number of COVID-19 cases in Salinas, the state's placement of Monterey County on the COVID-19 County Data Monitoring Project watch list, and the Governor's indication that the state would order Monterey County to close all bars and indoor operations for certain sectors. "With Salinas having the highest number of positive COVID-19 cases in Monterey County and the state's roll-back of the re-opening for some business sectors in Monterey County, Salinas and its residents must follow the health experts' advice that wearing face coverings by everyone can limit the spread of COVID-19," said Salinas City Manager Ray Corpuz. "Unfortunately, not everyone is following the advice and wearing a face covering. The City must protect its residents and with this Order, the City's law enforcement departments can cite anyone, without warning, if they are not wearing a face covering." Social distancing protocols must also continue meaning residents and businesses are also required to maintain a six-foot distance from others who are not members of the same household.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 02:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

There was a lot of talk about herd immunity and Sweden as a model. Well, the results are apparently in, according to The New York Times.

Also - Brooks Brothers filed for bankruptcy protection. That's too bad, I like Brooks Brothers. And I did not know that they dressed all but four presidents since 1818.

0---------------------------------------0

Sweden took its own path. Now it is paying the price.

What would happen in a pandemic if a government allowed life to carry on largely unhindered?

As the world looked on, Sweden conducted what amounted to an unorthodox, open-air experiment testing just that proposition.

Now the results are in.

Not only have thousands more people died in Sweden than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but its economy has fared little better.

“They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”

The results of Sweden’s experience are relevant well beyond Europe.

In the United States, where the virus is spreading with alarming speed, many states have — at President Trump’s urging — avoided lockdowns or lifted them early. In Britain, Prime Minister Boris Johnson reopened pubs and restaurants last weekend.

Implicit in these approaches is the assumption that governments must balance saving lives against protecting the economy.

But Sweden’s grim result — more death, and nearly equal economic damage — suggests that the supposed choice between lives and paychecks is a false one: A failure to impose social distancing can cost lives and jobs at the same time.

Sweden put stock in the sensibility of its people as it largely avoided imposing government prohibitions, allowing restaurants, gyms, shops, playgrounds and most schools to stay open.

More than three months later, the virus has been blamed for 5,420 deaths there. Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40 percent more deaths than the United States, 12 times more than Norway, seven times more than Finland and six times more than Denmark.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 02:38 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I wish facts still existed, but they don't.

BmC
(Planeteer)
07/08/20 03:27 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Oh, but they do exist, they are now called "alternative facts". lol

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 03:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

now they say it's in the air.

duh.
it's always been there, from the very beginning. one of the very first reports i saw, at the beginning of the epidemic, was that it could travel at least 13' in the air. right after that, somebody said "6 feet is the standard".

they were wrong.


Timster
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 04:01 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
I wish facts still existed, but they don't.


It exists as "fake news".


Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 04:08 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Man, it's really hard to stay positive about the future.

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 10:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The city of Tulsa is experiencing a surge in coronavirus cases, a little over 2 weeks after President Donald Trump held a campaign rally in an indoor arena there.

LOL

they are fools.


SkyWave
(Planeteer)
07/08/20 11:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The Texas Medical Association has put together an excellent chart about how risky various activities are. You can find it here: https://www.texmed.org/uploadedFiles/Cur...%20V2_FINAL.pdf

The kind of things done in Tulsa at the T-Rump event are among the highest risk factors. The whole thing was an enormous disease vector.


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/08/20 11:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: SkyWave
The whole thing was an enormous disease vector.


Gosh I hope they are all ok.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
07/09/20 04:45 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Another MAJOR factor these pathogens must be continuously be monitored for is mutation. There have already been THREE splits from the original virus that hit Wuhan.

This fourth iteration called the D614G variant, is much easier to latch onto our cells due to their protein 'spike' component which is MUCH stronger than the others. It does NOT relinquish its attachment to our cells once it has acquired them, and replicates more quickly than the original strain.

Researchers believe this data show the reason for the drop in age related infection data, as well as the recent burst of infected numbers itself. This is NOT good news since the Basic Reproductive Number (R0) (R-naught) value has obviously increased.

Totally ridiculous gatherings such as Trump's Tulsa Pandemic Pass-On, Arizona A-Holes Contagion Coughs, and Wisconsin's Wheezing Virus Victims should have been outlawed as:

"In direct violation of a ruling from the W.H.O. and The C.D.C., and therefore the U.S. is required to isolate these areas and will now take action by cordoning off with ALL occupants inside (including Trump at the Tulsa location, which would have ended it right THERE)"

Then, the presentation of ONE OPTION for Donnie...

"Fuck it, YOU don't want to be part of the solution pal, continue to be divisive when the country needs a REAL leader, ignore the issues and flaunt a false reality simply because 'I'm the president' when people are dropping dead left and right in our country???"

BULLSHIT! I call MUTINY! Fuck You! Citizen's Arrest. DROP DEAD Mutherfucker!!! Whatever it TAKES. You, sir, are not PART of the SOLUTION...

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, SIR; AND YOU ALONE CAN FIX THIS, BY GETTING THE FUCK OUT OF THE OVAL OFFICE. IT'S REALLY VERY SIMPLE, EVEN YOU COULD UNDERSTAND IT. JUST DO WHAT YOU'VE PREDICTED THE CORONAVIRUS WILL DO...JUST DISAPPEAR, MUTHERFUCKER, JUST DISAPPEAR!!!

BY THE POWER GIVEN TO ME BY ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, BUT ON BEHALF OF ALL AMERICANS THAT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SHIT FROM SHINOLA, AND THAT YOU SIMPLY CANNOT POLISH A TURD TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS A GOLDEN EGG.....EVER!!!; 'WE THE PEOPLE', IN THE RESOUNDING WORDS OF EDDIE MURPHY FROM THE MOVIE 'TRADING PLACES', (NOT THE TRUMPER IMBECILIC DIPSHITS) ARE TELLING YOU TO...

"GIT. THE. FUCK. OUT."

. . Falcon


Webster
(Planeteer)
07/09/20 12:35 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Jazzooo
Man, it's really hard to stay positive about the future.


Yep. And we've turned that corner in such a short period of time.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 02:18 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

US records over 58,000 new cases in a single day

gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 02:20 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Asymptomatic and presymptomatic people transmit most COVID-19 infections.


i keep telling people i know,
that this is what is getting so many people....


there are so many infected, who DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE.

and they are the spreaders.

how do stop this?

socially distance, wear masks, and do so aggressively.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 06:14 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

they want us to wear plastic visors at the restaurant.
the servers already do, but i told my employer i will definitely not wear one of those.
i ain't getting paid enough for that shit.

stay the phuck home if you feel eating out is a hazard.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 07:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: moontan
they want us to wear plastic visors at the restaurant.
....
i ain't getting paid enough for that shit.

stay the phuck home if you feel eating out is a hazard.


eating out IS a hazard,
when the employees don't give a fuck.


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 07:47 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
 Originally Posted By: moontan
they want us to wear plastic visors at the restaurant.
....
i ain't getting paid enough for that shit.

stay the phuck home if you feel eating out is a hazard.


eating out IS a hazard,
when the employees don't give a fuck.


easy for you to say.

you're not the one working with temperature around 100 F.


FalconEddy
(Planeteer)
07/09/20 10:13 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
 Originally Posted By: moontan
they want us to wear plastic visors at the restaurant.
....
i ain't getting paid enough for that shit.

stay the phuck home if you feel eating out is a hazard.


eating out IS a hazard,
when the employees don't give a fuck.


As you can easily see by this real world example, if people are going to buck the system (or safety concerns) from management (or whomever), then we're failing on a global level.

If this were a contagion with a massive R0 factor near 50, with a morbidity rate in the high 80's or low 90's, we'd be looking at the possibility of an Extinction Level Event.

It would only take less than six complete cycles before the entire population of the planet was infected.

People need to cut the bullshit, and get with the program; because without the attempt at prevention, a pandemic runs amok. Why give it more help when it's doing just fine on its own?

Not sure about some of you OTHER folks, but I'd certainly enjoy living a bit longer without contracting a virus that would most likely cause my demise.

Excuses are starting to sound similar to back when people pissed & moans about seat belts being too confining, or wrinkling their dress, shirt, or blouse.

I vividly remember when those people were being scraped off the bark of huge tree trunks, inside windshields, passenger side doors, the back of the driver's seat.

Getting the rear view mirror removed from their foreheads, or just their head going through the windshield.

It just seems sort of stupid to have so many non-conformists actually WANTING to avoid protecting themselves from this absolute nightmare we're facing around the globe.

. . Falcon


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/09/20 10:34 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

if it's that bad, then shut down all the phuckin restos and bars.
and put me back on government compensation benefits and give me a call when the coast is clear...

it's only money, they can always print more of that stuff. lol


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/10/20 12:02 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I'm working on a petition to change my states name to Maskachusetts

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/10/20 12:17 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

we are so phucked.

the planet is boiling, we are up tp our neck in this COVID thing.

at this point, i think i'm actually considering rooting for the COVID...
i'm sure Mother Earth would breathe a lot easier with, i don't know, 4-5 billions less of us... lol


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/10/20 01:01 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The environment is loving it.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/10/20 01:11 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant
The environment is loving it.

sure...

the polar bears are lining up in the Artic to get a shave at the local barber shop.

and whales, they just love plastic. lol


moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 12:32 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

methane being, if i recall, 6 times more potent than CO2 at being a greenhouse gas.

 Quote:
Global emissions of methane have reached the highest levels on record. Increases are being driven primarily by growth of emissions from coal mining, oil and natural gas production, cattle and sheep ranching, and landfills.

Between 2000 and 2017, levels of the potent greenhouse gas barreled up toward pathways that climate models suggest will lead to 3-4 degrees Celsius of warming before the end of this century.
This is a dangerous temperature threshold at which scientists warn that natural disasters, including wildfires, droughts and floods, and social disruptions such as famines and mass migrations become almost commonplace.


https://phys.org/news/2020-07-global-methane-emissions-soar-high.html

and as an added 'bonus', as the planet warms up, expect more of these pandemics.
it's a race to see if technology can rescue us from technology...


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 03:00 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Cow farts.

moontan
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 03:44 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
Cow farts.


they should at least be entitled to that at least, no? lol


Jazzooo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 04:19 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Get ready: the trump administration will announce that it inherited 'a mess' from the CDC and site inconsistencies and errors. We will then see a dramatic decrease in cases. This scumbag leader of ours has only one agenda, and that is getting re-elected, so he will make it appear that the pandemic is on the run just to look good, as as cases continue to climb.

jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
07/16/20 12:48 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Jazzooo
Get ready: the trump administration will announce that it inherited 'a mess' from the CDC and site inconsistencies and errors. We will then see a dramatic decrease in cases. This scumbag leader of ours has only one agenda, and that is getting re-elected, so he will make it appear that the pandemic is on the run just to look good, as as cases continue to climb.


yes, this is the worse thing I have seen especially as we try to decide about kids going back to school...hopefully this is the wakeup call to the morons who think their guy is great..I guess w'll see as the dumb states are getting theirs now for being stupid even WITH the info


mike gouthro
(Planeteer)
07/16/20 01:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Jazzooo
Get ready: the trump administration will announce that it inherited 'a mess' from the CDC and site inconsistencies and errors. We will then see a dramatic decrease in cases. This scumbag leader of ours has only one agenda, and that is getting re-elected, so he will make it appear that the pandemic is on the run just to look good, as as cases continue to climb.


It will be hard to sell that to anyone who is not a full cult member - when hospitals begin to choke, front line workers burn out and walk away, freezer trucks in the streets store bodies, and mass grave digs start up again like NYC a couple of months ago.


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 06:44 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This article is available for free from The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/second-coronavirus-death-surge/614122/


0----------------------------------------------------0

A Second Coronavirus Death Surge Is Coming

There was always a logical explanation for why cases rose through the end of June while deaths did not.

Alexis C. Madrigal
July 15, 2020


There is no mystery in the number of Americans dying from COVID-19.

Despite political leaders trivializing the pandemic, deaths are rising again: The seven-day average for deaths per day has now jumped by more than 200 since July 6, according to data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project at The Atlantic. By our count, states reported 855 deaths today, in line with the recent elevated numbers in mid-July.

The deaths are not happening in unpredictable places. Rather, people are dying at higher rates where there are lots of COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations: in Florida, Arizona, Texas, and California, as well as a host of smaller southern states that all rushed to open up.

The deaths are also not happening in an unpredictable amount of time after the new outbreaks emerged. Simply look at the curves yourself. Cases began to rise on June 16; a week later, hospitalizations began to rise. Two weeks after that—21 days after cases rose—states began to report more deaths. That’s the exact number of days that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated from the onset of symptoms to the reporting of a death.

Many people who don’t want COVID-19 to be the terrible crisis that it is have clung to the idea that more cases won’t mean more deaths. Some Americans have been perplexed by a downward trend of national deaths, even as cases exploded in the Sun Belt region. But given the policy choices that state and federal officials have made, the virus has done exactly what public-health experts expected. When states reopened in late April and May with plenty of infected people within their borders, cases began to grow. COVID-19 is highly transmissible, makes a large subset of people who catch it seriously ill, and kills many more people than the flu or any other infectious disease circulating in the country.

The likelihood that more cases of COVID-19 would mean that more people would die from the disease has always been very high. Even at the low point for deaths in the U.S., roughly 500 people died each day, on average. Now, with the national death numbers rising once again, there’s simply no argument that America can sustain coronavirus outbreaks while somehow escaping fatalities.

In the United States, the rising severity of the current moment was obscured for several weeks by the downward drift of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths resulting from the spring outbreak in northeastern states. Even though deaths have been rising in the hardest-hit states of the Sun Belt surge, falling deaths in the Northeast disguised the trend.

It is true that the proportion of infections in younger people increased in June and July compared with March and April. And young people have a much lower risk of dying than people in their 60s and older. But, at least in Florida, where the best age data are available, early evidence suggests that the virus is already spreading to older people. Additionally, analysis of CDC data by The New York Times has found that younger Black and Latino people have a much higher risk of dying from COVID-19 than white people the same age. According to the racial data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project in concert with the Boston University Center for Antiracist Research, Latinos in Arizona, California, Florida, and Texas are 1.3 to 1.6 times more likely to be infected than their proportion of the population would suggest. It is telling that despite outbreaks all over Texas in recent weeks, the border region has been leading the state in deaths per capita.

Even with cases surging, if hospitalizations were not rising, that might suggest that this outbreak might be less deadly than the spring’s. But hospitalization data maintained by the COVID Tracking Project suggested otherwise as early as June 23. On that date, hospitalizations began to tick up across the South and West, and they have not stopped. It’s possible we’ll match the national peak number of hospitalizations from the spring outbreak over the next week.

Even if better knowledge of the disease and new treatments have improved outcomes by 25 or even 50 percent, so many people are now in the hospital that some of them will almost certainly die.

There was always a logical, simple explanation for why cases and hospitalizations rose through the end of June while deaths did not: It takes a while for people to die of COVID-19 and for those deaths to be reported to authorities.

So why has there been so much confusion about the COVID-19 death toll? The second surge is inconvenient for the Trump administration and the Republican governors who followed its lead, as well as for Mike Pence, the head of the coronavirus task force, who declared victory in a spectacularly incorrect Wall Street Journal op-ed titled, “There Isn’t a Coronavirus ‘Second Wave.’”

“Cases have stabilized over the past two weeks, with the daily average case rate across the U.S. dropping to 20,000—down from 30,000 in April and 25,000 in May,” Pence wrote. In the month since Pence made this assertion, the seven-day average of cases has tripled. Several individual states have reported more than 10,000 cases in a day, and Florida alone reported 15,000 cases, more than any state had before, on an absolute or per capita basis.

But there’s another reason for some of the confusion about the severity of the outbreak right now. And that’s the perceived speed at which the outbreak initially landed on American shores and started killing people. The lack of testing let the virus run free in February and much of March. As my colleague Robinson Meyer and I put it at the time, “Without testing, there was only one way to know the severity of the outbreak: counting the dead.” And that is how we figured out how bad the outbreak was. Thousands began dying in the greater New York City area and a few other cities around the country in early April. The seven-day average for new cases peaked on April 10, followed by the peak of the seven-day average for daily deaths just 11 days later.

Everything seemed to happen at once: lots of cases, lots of hospitalizations, lots of deaths. But some of this is also the compression of memory. Most of us remember the deaths in March beginning as quickly as the cases, especially given the testing debacle. That’s not exactly what happened, however. The nation did, in fact, see cases rise weeks before the death toll shot up. There was a time in March when we had detected more than 100 cases for each death we recorded. This is a crucial metric because it gets at the perceived gap between cases and deaths. And it tells us that we did see a lag between rising cases and deaths back in the spring.

During the slow-decline phase in May, the case-to-deaths ratio fell to about 20. Then, this summer, the case-to-death ratio began to rise in early June. On July 6, the ratio hit 100 again, just like in the spring. But as in spring, this was not a good sign, but rather the leading indicator that a new round of outbreaks was taking hold in the country. And, indeed, a week ago, this ratio began to fall as deaths ramped up.

The U.S. came most of the way down the curve from the dark days of April, and now we’re watching the surge happen again. The testing delays, the emergency-room-nurse stories, the refrigerated morgue trucks—the first time as a tragedy, the second time as an even greater tragedy. One must ask, without really wanting to know the answer, How bad could this round get?

By the absolute or per capita numbers, the U.S. stands out as nearly the only country besides Iran that had a large spring outbreak, began to suppress the virus, and then simply let the virus come back.

No other country in the world has attempted what the U.S. appears to be stumbling into. Right now, many, many communities have huge numbers of infections. When other countries reached this kind of takeoff point for viral spread, they took drastic measures. Although a few states like California are rolling back reopening, most American states are adamant about opening into the teeth of the outbreak. And this level of outbreak will not stay neatly within a governor’s political boundaries. There’s no way to win this state by state, and yet that’s exactly what we’re attempting. From the look of the map, the South and West—regions with a combined 200 million people—are in trouble.

The regional variation of the American outbreak is crucial to understanding both what happened and what’s going to happen next. Nationwide, the U.S. deaths per million tally—a hair under 400—is in the top ten globally. But look just at the Northeast’s 56 million people, and the death rate is more than double the national average: 1,100 deaths per million.

By contrast, the South and West—where SARS-CoV-2 is burning through the population—are much more populous than the Northeast. If those areas continue to see cases grow, they could see as many deaths per million as the Northeast did but multiplied by a larger number of people. At 1,100 deaths per million, the South and West would see 180,000 more deaths. Even at half the Northeast’s number, that’s another 69,000 Americans.

In truth, the fan of possibilities is probably wider. Looking at individual states, there was tremendous variation from low-death states like New Hampshire (288 deaths per million), to extremely high-death states like New Jersey (1,750 deaths per million), and a bunch in between, like Massachusetts (1,208); Washington, D.C. (805); and Pennsylvania (539).

It’s possible that the summer-outbreak states could follow the lower death trajectory traced by Pennsylvania or Washington, D.C. Right now, only Arizona, at 307 deaths per million, has crossed even the lowest line above, New Hampshire; there is a lot of room for things to get worse, even if they do not come close to equaling the horrors of the spring.

New York City is and probably will remain the worst-case scenario. New York City has lost 23,353 lives. That’s 0.28 percent of the city’s population. If, as some antibody-prevalence surveys suggest, 20 percent of New Yorkers were infected, that’s an infection-fatality rate of more than 1.3 percent, which exceeds what the CDC or anyone else is planning for. To put it in the same terms discussed here, New York City saw 2,780 deaths per million people. A similar scenario across the South and West would kill over 550,000 more Americans in just a few months, moving the country to 680,000 dead. It is unthinkable, and yet, 130,000 deaths—the current national death toll—was once unthinkable, too.

That’s still not the worst-case scenario for a truly uncontained outbreak, in which serious measures are not taken. For months, most public-health officials have argued that the infection-fatality rate—the number of people who die from all infections, detected and undetected, symptomatic and asymptomatic—was somewhere between 0.5 and 1 percent. The CDC’s latest estimates in its planning scenarios range from 0.5 to 0.8 percent. Take that lower number and imagine that roughly 40 percent of the country becomes infected. That’s 800,000 lives lost.

The point in laying out these scenarios is not that we’ll reach 300,000 or 800,000 American COVID-19 deaths. That still seems unlikely. But anyone who thinks we can just ride out the storm has perhaps not engaged with the reality of the problem. As the former CDC director Tom Frieden has said, “COVID is not going to stop on its own. The virus will continue to spread until we stop it.”

The lack of containment by American authorities has resulted in not only lost lives, but also lost businesses, savings accounts, school years, dreams, public trust, friendships. The country cannot get back to normal with a highly transmissible, deadly virus spreading in our communities. There will be no way to just “live with it.” There will only be dying from it for the unlucky, and barely surviving it for the rest of us.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
07/16/20 07:03 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

pence is an idiot,
that much is for sure.


Dave Morris
(Planeteer)
07/16/20 07:04 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Where is DWNMT, to come and educate us, as he did a couple of weeks ago, on the fact that the number of cases isn’t important, it’s the number of fatalities, and they were dropping, so you were in good shape.

SkyWave
(Planeteer)
07/16/20 07:57 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I am a bit behind in my SARS-CoV-2 reading and not current on the absolute latest numbers, but what I recall was that death rates are dropping, in large part because better more effective treatment protocols have been developing.

Here, for example, are recent treatment protocols for COVID patients. Interestingly, the two main phases of the disease need to be treated with different medications and in different ways. The first 11 days is a viral replication phase; after that there is a potentially dangerous/deadly immune dysregulation that needs to be quelled. Anyway, check this out. Should I, heaven forbid, come down with COVID and end up in medical treatment, I will be giving this as a handout to my medical care providers. This is about the best we have right now, short of avoiding infection in the first place. Good luck, all.

https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/d...19_Protocol.pdf


jimmyrock
(Planeteer)
07/16/20 09:29 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: gonzo
pence is an idiot,
that much is for sure.


indeed.


Arthur
(Planeteer)
07/17/20 06:31 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Things are not going well in Belgium. We have more or less our second wave now.
The number of new infections has tripled in the past week. Luckily, the number of deaths keeps going down (2 per day) .
Our virologists are worried, and our politicians are fucking up.
They should act now, but they are afraid. I’m really worried 😟


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/04/20 12:12 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

This article in The Atlantic talks about what has happened to this point. It is titled How The Pandemic Defeated America.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/coronavirus-american-failure/614191/

0-----------------------------------------------0


How the Pandemic Defeated America

A virus has brought the world’s most powerful country to its knees.


Story by Ed Yong
September 2020 Issue


Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here.


How did it come to this? A virus a thousand times smaller than a dust mote has humbled and humiliated the planet’s most powerful nation. America has failed to protect its people, leaving them with illness and financial ruin. It has lost its status as a global leader. It has careened between inaction and ineptitude. The breadth and magnitude of its errors are difficult, in the moment, to truly fathom.

In the first half of 2020, SARS‑CoV‑2—the new coronavirus behind the disease COVID‑19—infected 10 million people around the world and killed about half a million. But few countries have been as severely hit as the United States, which has just 4 percent of the world’s population but a quarter of its confirmed COVID‑19 cases and deaths. These numbers are estimates. The actual toll, though undoubtedly higher, is unknown, because the richest country in the world still lacks sufficient testing to accurately count its sick citizens.

Despite ample warning, the U.S. squandered every possible opportunity to control the coronavirus. And despite its considerable advantages—immense resources, biomedical might, scientific expertise—it floundered. While countries as different as South Korea, Thailand, Iceland, Slovakia, and Australia acted decisively to bend the curve of infections downward, the U.S. achieved merely a plateau in the spring, which changed to an appalling upward slope in the summer. “The U.S. fundamentally failed in ways that were worse than I ever could have imagined,” Julia Marcus, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard Medical School, told me.

Since the pandemic began, I have spoken with more than 100 experts in a variety of fields. I’ve learned that almost everything that went wrong with America’s response to the pandemic was predictable and preventable. A sluggish response by a government denuded of expertise allowed the coronavirus to gain a foothold. Chronic underfunding of public health neutered the nation’s ability to prevent the pathogen’s spread. A bloated, inefficient health-care system left hospitals ill-prepared for the ensuing wave of sickness. Racist policies that have endured since the days of colonization and slavery left Indigenous and Black Americans especially vulnerable to COVID‑19. The decades-long process of shredding the nation’s social safety net forced millions of essential workers in low-paying jobs to risk their life for their livelihood. The same social-media platforms that sowed partisanship and misinformation during the 2014 Ebola outbreak in Africa and the 2016 U.S. election became vectors for conspiracy theories during the 2020 pandemic.

The U.S. has little excuse for its inattention. In recent decades, epidemics of SARS, MERS, Ebola, H1N1 flu, Zika, and monkeypox showed the havoc that new and reemergent pathogens could wreak. Health experts, business leaders, and even middle schoolers ran simulated exercises to game out the spread of new diseases. In 2018, I wrote an article for The Atlantic arguing that the U.S. was not ready for a pandemic, and sounded warnings about the fragility of the nation’s health-care system and the slow process of creating a vaccine. But the COVID‑19 debacle has also touched—and implicated—nearly every other facet of American society: its shortsighted leadership, its disregard for expertise, its racial inequities, its social-media culture, and its fealty to a dangerous strain of individualism.

SARS‑CoV‑2 is something of an anti-Goldilocks virus: just bad enough in every way. Its symptoms can be severe enough to kill millions but are often mild enough to allow infections to move undetected through a population. It spreads quickly enough to overload hospitals, but slowly enough that statistics don’t spike until too late. These traits made the virus harder to control, but they also softened the pandemic’s punch. SARS‑CoV‑2 is neither as lethal as some other coronaviruses, such as SARS and MERS, nor as contagious as measles. Deadlier pathogens almost certainly exist. Wild animals harbor an estimated 40,000 unknown viruses, a quarter of which could potentially jump into humans. How will the U.S. fare when “we can’t even deal with a starter pandemic?,” Zeynep Tufekci, a sociologist at the University of North Carolina and an Atlantic contributing writer, asked me.

Despite its epochal effects, COVID‑19 is merely a harbinger of worse plagues to come. The U.S. cannot prepare for these inevitable crises if it returns to normal, as many of its people ache to do. Normal led to this. Normal was a world ever more prone to a pandemic but ever less ready for one. To avert another catastrophe, the U.S. needs to grapple with all the ways normal failed us. It needs a full accounting of every recent misstep and foundational sin, every unattended weakness and unheeded warning, every festering wound and reopened scar.

A pandemic can be prevented in two ways: Stop an infection from ever arising, or stop an infection from becoming thousands more. The first way is likely impossible. There are simply too many viruses and too many animals that harbor them. Bats alone could host thousands of unknown coronaviruses; in some Chinese caves, one out of every 20 bats is infected. Many people live near these caves, shelter in them, or collect guano from them for fertilizer. Thousands of bats also fly over these people’s villages and roost in their homes, creating opportunities for the bats’ viral stowaways to spill over into human hosts. Based on antibody testing in rural parts of China, Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, a nonprofit that studies emerging diseases, estimates that such viruses infect a substantial number of people every year. “Most infected people don’t know about it, and most of the viruses aren’t transmissible,” Daszak says. But it takes just one transmissible virus to start a pandemic.

Sometime in late 2019, the wrong virus left a bat and ended up, perhaps via an intermediate host, in a human—and another, and another. Eventually it found its way to the Huanan seafood market, and jumped into dozens of new hosts in an explosive super-spreading event. The COVID‑19 pandemic had begun.

“There is no way to get spillover of everything to zero,” Colin Carlson, an ecologist at Georgetown University, told me. Many conservationists jump on epidemics as opportunities to ban the wildlife trade or the eating of “bush meat,” an exoticized term for “game,” but few diseases have emerged through either route. Carlson said the biggest factors behind spillovers are land-use change and climate change, both of which are hard to control. Our species has relentlessly expanded into previously wild spaces. Through intensive agriculture, habitat destruction, and rising temperatures, we have uprooted the planet’s animals, forcing them into new and narrower ranges that are on our own doorsteps. Humanity has squeezed the world’s wildlife in a crushing grip—and viruses have come bursting out.

Curtailing those viruses after they spill over is more feasible, but requires knowledge, transparency, and decisiveness that were lacking in 2020. Much about coronaviruses is still unknown. There are no surveillance networks for detecting them as there are for influenza. There are no approved treatments or vaccines. Coronaviruses were formerly a niche family, of mainly veterinary importance. Four decades ago, just 60 or so scientists attended the first international meeting on coronaviruses. Their ranks swelled after SARS swept the world in 2003, but quickly dwindled as a spike in funding vanished. The same thing happened after MERS emerged in 2012. This year, the world’s coronavirus experts—and there still aren’t many—had to postpone their triennial conference in the Netherlands because SARS‑CoV‑2 made flying too risky.

In the age of cheap air travel, an outbreak that begins on one continent can easily reach the others. SARS already demonstrated that in 2003, and more than twice as many people now travel by plane every year. To avert a pandemic, affected nations must alert their neighbors quickly. In 2003, China covered up the early spread of SARS, allowing the new disease to gain a foothold, and in 2020, history repeated itself. The Chinese government downplayed the possibility that SARS‑CoV‑2 was spreading among humans, and only confirmed as much on January 20, after millions had traveled around the country for the lunar new year. Doctors who tried to raise the alarm were censured and threatened. One, Li Wenliang, later died of COVID‑19. The World Health Organization initially parroted China’s line and did not declare a public-health emergency of international concern until January 30. By then, an estimated 10,000 people in 20 countries had been infected, and the virus was spreading fast.

The United States has correctly castigated China for its duplicity and the WHO for its laxity—but the U.S. has also failed the international community. Under President Donald Trump, the U.S. has withdrawn from several international partnerships and antagonized its allies. It has a seat on the WHO’s executive board, but left that position empty for more than two years, only filling it this May, when the pandemic was in full swing. Since 2017, Trump has pulled more than 30 staffers out of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s office in China, who could have warned about the spreading coronavirus. Last July, he defunded an American epidemiologist embedded within China’s CDC. America First was America oblivious.

Even after warnings reached the U.S., they fell on the wrong ears. Since before his election, Trump has cavalierly dismissed expertise and evidence. He filled his administration with inexperienced newcomers, while depicting career civil servants as part of a “deep state.” In 2018, he dismantled an office that had been assembled specifically to prepare for nascent pandemics. American intelligence agencies warned about the coronavirus threat in January, but Trump habitually disregards intelligence briefings. The secretary of health and human services, Alex Azar, offered similar counsel, and was twice ignored.

Being prepared means being ready to spring into action, “so that when something like this happens, you’re moving quickly,” Ronald Klain, who coordinated the U.S. response to the West African Ebola outbreak in 2014, told me. “By early February, we should have triggered a series of actions, precisely zero of which were taken.” Trump could have spent those crucial early weeks mass-producing tests to detect the virus, asking companies to manufacture protective equipment and ventilators, and otherwise steeling the nation for the worst. Instead, he focused on the border. On January 31, Trump announced that the U.S. would bar entry to foreigners who had recently been in China, and urged Americans to avoid going there.

Travel bans make intuitive sense, because travel obviously enables the spread of a virus. But in practice, travel bans are woefully inefficient at restricting either travel or viruses. They prompt people to seek indirect routes via third-party countries, or to deliberately hide their symptoms. They are often porous: Trump’s included numerous exceptions, and allowed tens of thousands of people to enter from China. Ironically, they create travel: When Trump later announced a ban on flights from continental Europe, a surge of travelers packed America’s airports in a rush to beat the incoming restrictions. Travel bans may sometimes work for remote island nations, but in general they can only delay the spread of an epidemic—not stop it. And they can create a harmful false confidence, so countries “rely on bans to the exclusion of the things they actually need to do—testing, tracing, building up the health system,” says Thomas Bollyky, a global-health expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. “That sounds an awful lot like what happened in the U.S.”

This was predictable. A president who is fixated on an ineffectual border wall, and has portrayed asylum seekers as vectors of disease, was always going to reach for travel bans as a first resort. And Americans who bought into his rhetoric of xenophobia and isolationism were going to be especially susceptible to thinking that simple entry controls were a panacea.

And so the U.S. wasted its best chance of restraining COVID‑19. Although the disease first arrived in the U.S. in mid-January, genetic evidence shows that the specific viruses that triggered the first big outbreaks, in Washington State, didn’t land until mid-February. The country could have used that time to prepare. Instead, Trump, who had spent his entire presidency learning that he could say whatever he wanted without consequence, assured Americans that “the coronavirus is very much under control,” and “like a miracle, it will disappear.” With impunity, Trump lied. With impunity, the virus spread.

On February 26, Trump asserted that cases were “going to be down to close to zero.” Over the next two months, at least 1 million Americans were infected.

As the coronavirus established itself in the U.S., it found a nation through which it could spread easily, without being detected. For years, Pardis Sabeti, a virologist at the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, has been trying to create a surveillance network that would allow hospitals in every major U.S. city to quickly track new viruses through genetic sequencing. Had that network existed, once Chinese scientists published SARS‑CoV‑2’s genome on January 11, every American hospital would have been able to develop its own diagnostic test in preparation for the virus’s arrival. “I spent a lot of time trying to convince many funders to fund it,” Sabeti told me. “I never got anywhere.”

The CDC developed and distributed its own diagnostic tests in late January. These proved useless because of a faulty chemical component. Tests were in such short supply, and the criteria for getting them were so laughably stringent, that by the end of February, tens of thousands of Americans had likely been infected but only hundreds had been tested. The official data were so clearly wrong that The Atlantic developed its own volunteer-led initiative—the COVID Tracking Project—to count cases.

Diagnostic tests are easy to make, so the U.S. failing to create one seemed inconceivable. Worse, it had no Plan B. Private labs were strangled by FDA bureaucracy. Meanwhile, Sabeti’s lab developed a diagnostic test in mid-January and sent it to colleagues in Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Senegal. “We had working diagnostics in those countries well before we did in any U.S. states,” she told me.

It’s hard to overstate how thoroughly the testing debacle incapacitated the U.S. People with debilitating symptoms couldn’t find out what was wrong with them. Health officials couldn’t cut off chains of transmission by identifying people who were sick and asking them to isolate themselves.

Water running along a pavement will readily seep into every crack; so, too, did the unchecked coronavirus seep into every fault line in the modern world. Consider our buildings. In response to the global energy crisis of the 1970s, architects made structures more energy-efficient by sealing them off from outdoor air, reducing ventilation rates. Pollutants and pathogens built up indoors, “ushering in the era of ‘sick buildings,’ ” says Joseph Allen, who studies environmental health at Harvard’s T. H. Chan School of Public Health. Energy efficiency is a pillar of modern climate policy, but there are ways to achieve it without sacrificing well-being. “We lost our way over the years and stopped designing buildings for people,” Allen says.

The indoor spaces in which Americans spend 87 percent of their time became staging grounds for super-spreading events. One study showed that the odds of catching the virus from an infected person are roughly 19 times higher indoors than in open air. Shielded from the elements and among crowds clustered in prolonged proximity, the coronavirus ran rampant in the conference rooms of a Boston hotel, the cabins of the Diamond Princess cruise ship, and a church hall in Washington State where a choir practiced for just a few hours.

The hardest-hit buildings were those that had been jammed with people for decades: prisons. Between harsher punishments doled out in the War on Drugs and a tough-on-crime mindset that prizes retribution over rehabilitation, America’s incarcerated population has swelled sevenfold since the 1970s, to about 2.3 million. The U.S. imprisons five to 18 times more people per capita than other Western democracies. Many American prisons are packed beyond capacity, making social distancing impossible. Soap is often scarce. Inevitably, the coronavirus ran amok. By June, two American prisons each accounted for more cases than all of New Zealand. One, Marion Correctional Institution, in Ohio, had more than 2,000 cases among inmates despite having a capacity of 1,500. 


Other densely packed facilities were also besieged. America’s nursing homes and long-term-care facilities house less than 1 percent of its people, but as of mid-June, they accounted for 40 percent of its coronavirus deaths. More than 50,000 residents and staff have died. At least 250,000 more have been infected. These grim figures are a reflection not just of the greater harms that COVID‑19 inflicts upon elderly physiology, but also of the care the elderly receive. Before the pandemic, three in four nursing homes were understaffed, and four in five had recently been cited for failures in infection control. The Trump administration’s policies have exacerbated the problem by reducing the influx of immigrants, who make up a quarter of long-term caregivers.

Even though a Seattle nursing home was one of the first COVID‑19 hot spots in the U.S., similar facilities weren’t provided with tests and protective equipment. Rather than girding these facilities against the pandemic, the Department of Health and Human Services paused nursing-home inspections in March, passing the buck to the states. Some nursing homes avoided the virus because their owners immediately stopped visitations, or paid caregivers to live on-site. But in others, staff stopped working, scared about infecting their charges or becoming infected themselves. In some cases, residents had to be evacuated because no one showed up to care for them.

America’s neglect of nursing homes and prisons, its sick buildings, and its botched deployment of tests are all indicative of its problematic attitude toward health: “Get hospitals ready and wait for sick people to show,” as Sheila Davis, the CEO of the nonprofit Partners in Health, puts it. “Especially in the beginning, we catered our entire [COVID‑19] response to the 20 percent of people who required hospitalization, rather than preventing transmission in the community.” The latter is the job of the public-health system, which prevents sickness in populations instead of merely treating it in individuals. That system pairs uneasily with a national temperament that views health as a matter of personal responsibility rather than a collective good.

At the end of the 20th century, public-health improvements meant that Americans were living an average of 30 years longer than they were at the start of it. Maternal mortality had fallen by 99 percent; infant mortality by 90 percent. Fortified foods all but eliminated rickets and goiters. Vaccines eradicated smallpox and polio, and brought measles, diphtheria, and rubella to heel. These measures, coupled with antibiotics and better sanitation, curbed infectious diseases to such a degree that some scientists predicted they would soon pass into history. But instead, these achievements brought complacency. “As public health did its job, it became a target” of budget cuts, says Lori Freeman, the CEO of the National Association of County and City Health Officials.

Today, the U.S. spends just 2.5 percent of its gigantic health-care budget on public health. Underfunded health departments were already struggling to deal with opioid addiction, climbing obesity rates, contaminated water, and easily preventable diseases. Last year saw the most measles cases since 1992. In 2018, the U.S. had 115,000 cases of syphilis and 580,000 cases of gonorrhea—numbers not seen in almost three decades. It has 1.7 million cases of chlamydia, the highest number ever recorded.

Since the last recession, in 2009, chronically strapped local health departments have lost 55,000 jobs—a quarter of their workforce. When COVID‑19 arrived, the economic downturn forced overstretched departments to furlough more employees. When states needed battalions of public-health workers to find infected people and trace their contacts, they had to hire and train people from scratch. In May, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan asserted that his state would soon have enough people to trace 10,000 contacts every day. Last year, as Ebola tore through the Democratic Republic of Congo—a country with a quarter of Maryland’s wealth and an active war zone—local health workers and the WHO traced twice as many people.

Ripping unimpeded through American communities, the coronavirus created thousands of sickly hosts that it then rode into America’s hospitals. It should have found facilities armed with state-of-the-art medical technologies, detailed pandemic plans, and ample supplies of protective equipment and life-saving medicines. Instead, it found a brittle system in danger of collapse.

Compared with the average wealthy nation, America spends nearly twice as much of its national wealth on health care, about a quarter of which is wasted on inefficient care, unnecessary treatments, and administrative chicanery. The U.S. gets little bang for its exorbitant buck. It has the lowest life-expectancy rate of comparable countries, the highest rates of chronic disease, and the fewest doctors per person. This profit-driven system has scant incentive to invest in spare beds, stockpiled supplies, peacetime drills, and layered contingency plans—the essence of pandemic preparedness. America’s hospitals have been pruned and stretched by market forces to run close to full capacity, with little ability to adapt in a crisis.

When hospitals do create pandemic plans, they tend to fight the last war. After 2014, several centers created specialized treatment units designed for Ebola—a highly lethal but not very contagious disease. These units were all but useless against a highly transmissible airborne virus like SARS‑CoV‑2. Nor were hospitals ready for an outbreak to drag on for months. Emergency plans assumed that staff could endure a few days of exhausting conditions, that supplies would hold, and that hard-hit centers could be supported by unaffected neighbors. “We’re designed for discrete disasters” like mass shootings, traffic pileups, and hurricanes, says Esther Choo, an emergency physician at Oregon Health and Science University. The COVID‑19 pandemic is not a discrete disaster. It is a 50-state catastrophe that will likely continue at least until a vaccine is ready.

Wherever the coronavirus arrived, hospitals reeled. Several states asked medical students to graduate early, reenlisted retired doctors, and deployed dermatologists to emergency departments. Doctors and nurses endured grueling shifts, their faces chapped and bloody when they finally doffed their protective equipment. Soon, that equipment—masks, respirators, gowns, gloves—started running out.

American hospitals operate on a just-in-time economy. They acquire the goods they need in the moment through labyrinthine supply chains that wrap around the world in tangled lines, from countries with cheap labor to richer nations like the U.S. The lines are invisible until they snap. About half of the world’s face masks, for example, are made in China, some of them in Hubei province. When that region became the pandemic epicenter, the mask supply shriveled just as global demand spiked. The Trump administration turned to a larder of medical supplies called the Strategic National Stockpile, only to find that the 100 million respirators and masks that had been dispersed during the 2009 flu pandemic were never replaced. Just 13 million respirators were left.

In April, four in five frontline nurses said they didn’t have enough protective equipment. Some solicited donations from the public, or navigated a morass of back-alley deals and internet scams. Others fashioned their own surgical masks from bandannas and gowns from garbage bags. The supply of nasopharyngeal swabs that are used in every diagnostic test also ran low, because one of the largest manufacturers is based in Lombardy, Italy—initially the COVID‑19 capital of Europe. About 40 percent of critical-care drugs, including antibiotics and painkillers, became scarce because they depend on manufacturing lines that begin in China and India. Once a vaccine is ready, there might not be enough vials to put it in, because of the long-running global shortage of medical-grade glass—literally, a bottle-neck bottleneck.

The federal government could have mitigated those problems by buying supplies at economies of scale and distributing them according to need. Instead, in March, Trump told America’s governors to “try getting it yourselves.” As usual, health care was a matter of capitalism and connections. In New York, rich hospitals bought their way out of their protective-equipment shortfall, while neighbors in poorer, more diverse parts of the city rationed their supplies.

While the president prevaricated, Americans acted. Businesses sent their employees home. People practiced social distancing, even before Trump finally declared a national emergency on March 13, and before governors and mayors subsequently issued formal stay-at-home orders, or closed schools, shops, and restaurants. A study showed that the U.S. could have averted 36,000 COVID‑19 deaths if leaders had enacted social-distancing measures just a week earlier. But better late than never: By collectively reducing the spread of the virus, America flattened the curve. Ventilators didn’t run out, as they had in parts of Italy. Hospitals had time to add extra beds.

Social distancing worked. But the indiscriminate lockdown was necessary only because America’s leaders wasted months of prep time. Deploying this blunt policy instrument came at enormous cost. Unemployment rose to 14.7 percent, the highest level since record-keeping began, in 1948. More than 26 million people lost their jobs, a catastrophe in a country that—uniquely and absurdly—ties health care to employment. Some COVID‑19 survivors have been hit with seven-figure medical bills. In the middle of the greatest health and economic crises in generations, millions of Americans have found themselves disconnected from medical care and impoverished. They join the millions who have always lived that way.

The coronavirus found, exploited, and widened every inequity that the U.S. had to offer. Elderly people, already pushed to the fringes of society, were treated as acceptable losses. Women were more likely to lose jobs than men, and also shouldered extra burdens of child care and domestic work, while facing rising rates of domestic violence. In half of the states, people with dementia and intellectual disabilities faced policies that threatened to deny them access to lifesaving ventilators. Thousands of people endured months of COVID‑19 symptoms that resembled those of chronic postviral illnesses, only to be told that their devastating symptoms were in their head. Latinos were three times as likely to be infected as white people. Asian Americans faced racist abuse. Far from being a “great equalizer,” the pandemic fell unevenly upon the U.S., taking advantage of injustices that had been brewing throughout the nation’s history.

Of the 3.1 million Americans who cannot afford health insurance, more than half are people of color, and 30 percent are Black. This is no accident. In the decades after the Civil War, the white leaders of former slave states deliberately withheld health care from Black Americans, apportioning medicine more according to the logic of Jim Crow than Hippocrates. They built hospitals away from Black communities, segregated Black patients into separate wings, and blocked Black students from medical school. In the 20th century, they helped construct America’s system of private, employer-based insurance, which has kept many Black people from receiving adequate medical treatment. They fought every attempt to improve Black people’s access to health care, from the creation of Medicare and Medicaid in the ’60s to the passage of the Affordable Care Act in 2010.

A number of former slave states also have among the lowest investments in public health, the lowest quality of medical care, the highest proportions of Black citizens, and the greatest racial divides in health outcomes. As the COVID‑19 pandemic wore on, they were among the quickest to lift social-distancing restrictions and reexpose their citizens to the coronavirus. The harms of these moves were unduly foisted upon the poor and the Black.

As of early July, one in every 1,450 Black Americans had died from COVID‑19—a rate more than twice that of white Americans. That figure is both tragic and wholly expected given the mountain of medical disadvantages that Black people face. Compared with white people, they die three years younger. Three times as many Black mothers die during pregnancy. Black people have higher rates of chronic illnesses that predispose them to fatal cases of COVID‑19. When they go to hospitals, they’re less likely to be treated. The care they do receive tends to be poorer. Aware of these biases, Black people are hesitant to seek aid for COVID‑19 symptoms and then show up at hospitals in sicker states. “One of my patients said, ‘I don’t want to go to the hospital, because they’re not going to treat me well,’ ” says Uché Blackstock, an emergency physician and the founder of Advancing Health Equity, a nonprofit that fights bias and racism in health care. “Another whispered to me, ‘I’m so relieved you’re Black. I just want to make sure I’m listened to.’ ”

Black people were both more worried about the pandemic and more likely to be infected by it. The dismantling of America’s social safety net left Black people with less income and higher unemployment. They make up a disproportionate share of the low-paid “essential workers” who were expected to staff grocery stores and warehouses, clean buildings, and deliver mail while the pandemic raged around them. Earning hourly wages without paid sick leave, they couldn’t afford to miss shifts even when symptomatic. They faced risky commutes on crowded public transportation while more privileged people teleworked from the safety of isolation. “There’s nothing about Blackness that makes you more prone to COVID,” says Nicolette Louissaint, the executive director of Healthcare Ready, a nonprofit that works to strengthen medical supply chains. Instead, existing inequities stack the odds in favor of the virus.

Native Americans were similarly vulnerable. A third of the people in the Navajo Nation can’t easily wash their hands, because they’ve been embroiled in long-running negotiations over the rights to the water on their own lands. Those with water must contend with runoff from uranium mines. Most live in cramped multigenerational homes, far from the few hospitals that service a 17-million-acre reservation. As of mid-May, the Navajo Nation had higher rates of COVID‑19 infections than any U.S. state.

Americans often misperceive historical inequities as personal failures. Stephen Huffman, a Republican state senator and doctor in Ohio, suggested that Black Americans might be more prone to COVID‑19 because they don’t wash their hands enough, a remark for which he later apologized. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, also a physician, noted that Black people have higher rates of chronic disease, as if this were an answer in itself, and not a pattern that demanded further explanation.

Clear distribution of accurate information is among the most important defenses against an epidemic’s spread. And yet the largely unregulated, social-media-based communications infrastructure of the 21st century almost ensures that misinformation will proliferate fast. “In every outbreak throughout the existence of social media, from Zika to Ebola, conspiratorial communities immediately spread their content about how it’s all caused by some government or pharmaceutical company or Bill Gates,” says Renée DiResta of the Stanford Internet Observatory, who studies the flow of online information. When COVID‑19 arrived, “there was no doubt in my mind that it was coming.”

Sure enough, existing conspiracy theories—George Soros! 5G! Bioweapons!—were repurposed for the pandemic. An infodemic of falsehoods spread alongside the actual virus. Rumors coursed through online platforms that are designed to keep users engaged, even if that means feeding them content that is polarizing or untrue. In a national crisis, when people need to act in concert, this is calamitous. “The social internet as a system is broken,” DiResta told me, and its faults are readily abused.

Beginning on April 16, DiResta’s team noticed growing online chatter about Judy Mikovits, a discredited researcher turned anti-vaccination champion. Posts and videos cast Mikovits as a whistleblower who claimed that the new coronavirus was made in a lab and described Anthony Fauci of the White House’s coronavirus task force as her nemesis. Ironically, this conspiracy theory was nested inside a larger conspiracy—part of an orchestrated PR campaign by an anti-vaxxer and QAnon fan with the explicit goal to “take down Anthony Fauci.” It culminated in a slickly produced video called Plandemic, which was released on May 4. More than 8 million people watched it in a week.

Doctors and journalists tried to debunk Plandemic’s many misleading claims, but these efforts spread less successfully than the video itself. Like pandemics, infodemics quickly become uncontrollable unless caught early. But while health organizations recognize the need to surveil for emerging diseases, they are woefully unprepared to do the same for emerging conspiracies. In 2016, when DiResta spoke with a CDC team about the threat of misinformation, “their response was: ‘ That’s interesting, but that’s just stuff that happens on the internet.’ ”

Rather than countering misinformation during the pandemic’s early stages, trusted sources often made things worse. Many health experts and government officials downplayed the threat of the virus in January and February, assuring the public that it posed a low risk to the U.S. and drawing comparisons to the ostensibly greater threat of the flu. The WHO, the CDC, and the U.S. surgeon general urged people not to wear masks, hoping to preserve the limited stocks for health-care workers. These messages were offered without nuance or acknowledgement of uncertainty, so when they were reversed—the virus is worse than the flu; wear masks—the changes seemed like befuddling flip-flops.

The media added to the confusion. Drawn to novelty, journalists gave oxygen to fringe anti-lockdown protests while most Americans quietly stayed home. They wrote up every incremental scientific claim, even those that hadn’t been verified or peer-reviewed.

There were many such claims to choose from. By tying career advancement to the publishing of papers, academia already creates incentives for scientists to do attention-grabbing but irreproducible work. The pandemic strengthened those incentives by prompting a rush of panicked research and promising ambitious scientists global attention.

In March, a small and severely flawed French study suggested that the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine could treat COVID‑19. Published in a minor journal, it likely would have been ignored a decade ago. But in 2020, it wended its way to Donald Trump via a chain of credulity that included Fox News, Elon Musk, and Dr. Oz. Trump spent months touting the drug as a miracle cure despite mounting evidence to the contrary, causing shortages for people who actually needed it to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. The hydroxychloroquine story was muddied even further by two studies published in top medical journals—The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine—that claimed the drug was not effective and was potentially harmful. The papers relied on suspect data from a small analytics company called Surgisphere. Both were retracted in June.

Science famously self-corrects. But during the pandemic, the same urgent pace that has produced valuable knowledge at record speed has also sent sloppy claims around the world before anyone could even raise a skeptical eyebrow. The ensuing confusion, and the many genuine unknowns about the virus, has created a vortex of fear and uncertainty, which grifters have sought to exploit. Snake-oil merchants have peddled ineffectual silver bullets (including actual silver). Armchair experts with scant or absent qualifications have found regular slots on the nightly news. And at the center of that confusion is Donald Trump.

During a pandemic, leaders must rally the public, tell the truth, and speak clearly and consistently. Instead, Trump repeatedly contradicted public-health experts, his scientific advisers, and himself. He said that “nobody ever thought a thing like [the pandemic] could happen” and also that he “felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.” Both statements cannot be true at the same time, and in fact neither is true.

A month before his inauguration, I wrote that “the question isn’t whether [Trump will] face a deadly outbreak during his presidency, but when.” Based on his actions as a media personality during the 2014 Ebola outbreak and as a candidate in the 2016 election, I suggested that he would fail at diplomacy, close borders, tweet rashly, spread conspiracy theories, ignore experts, and exhibit reckless self-confidence. And so he did.

No one should be shocked that a liar who has made almost 20,000 false or misleading claims during his presidency would lie about whether the U.S. had the pandemic under control; that a racist who gave birth to birtherism would do little to stop a virus that was disproportionately killing Black people; that a xenophobe who presided over the creation of new immigrant-detention centers would order meatpacking plants with a substantial immigrant workforce to remain open; that a cruel man devoid of empathy would fail to calm fearful citizens; that a narcissist who cannot stand to be upstaged would refuse to tap the deep well of experts at his disposal; that a scion of nepotism would hand control of a shadow coronavirus task force to his unqualified son-in-law; that an armchair polymath would claim to have a “natural ability” at medicine and display it by wondering out loud about the curative potential of injecting disinfectant; that an egotist incapable of admitting failure would try to distract from his greatest one by blaming China, defunding the WHO, and promoting miracle drugs; or that a president who has been shielded by his party from any shred of accountability would say, when asked about the lack of testing, “I don’t take any responsibility at all.”

Trump is a comorbidity of the COVID‑19 pandemic. He isn’t solely responsible for America’s fiasco, but he is central to it. A pandemic demands the coordinated efforts of dozens of agencies. “In the best circumstances, it’s hard to make the bureaucracy move quickly,” Ron Klain said. “It moves if the president stands on a table and says, ‘Move quickly.’ But it really doesn’t move if he’s sitting at his desk saying it’s not a big deal.”

In the early days of Trump’s presidency, many believed that America’s institutions would check his excesses. They have, in part, but Trump has also corrupted them. The CDC is but his latest victim. On February 25, the agency’s respiratory-disease chief, Nancy Messonnier, shocked people by raising the possibility of school closures and saying that “disruption to everyday life might be severe.” Trump was reportedly enraged. In response, he seems to have benched the entire agency. The CDC led the way in every recent domestic disease outbreak and has been the inspiration and template for public-health agencies around the world. But during the three months when some 2 million Americans contracted COVID‑19 and the death toll topped 100,000, the agency didn’t hold a single press conference. Its detailed guidelines on reopening the country were shelved for a month while the White House released its own uselessly vague plan.

Again, everyday Americans did more than the White House. By voluntarily agreeing to months of social distancing, they bought the country time, at substantial cost to their financial and mental well-being. Their sacrifice came with an implicit social contract—that the government would use the valuable time to mobilize an extraordinary, energetic effort to suppress the virus, as did the likes of Germany and Singapore. But the government did not, to the bafflement of health experts. “There are instances in history where humanity has really moved mountains to defeat infectious diseases,” says Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. “It’s appalling that we in the U.S. have not summoned that energy around COVID‑19.”

Instead, the U.S. sleepwalked into the worst possible scenario: People suffered all the debilitating effects of a lockdown with few of the benefits. Most states felt compelled to reopen without accruing enough tests or contact tracers. In April and May, the nation was stuck on a terrible plateau, averaging 20,000 to 30,000 new cases every day. In June, the plateau again became an upward slope, soaring to record-breaking heights.

Trump never rallied the country. Despite declaring himself a “wartime president,” he merely presided over a culture war, turning public health into yet another politicized cage match. Abetted by supporters in the conservative media, he framed measures that protect against the virus, from masks to social distancing, as liberal and anti-American. Armed anti-lockdown protesters demonstrated at government buildings while Trump egged them on, urging them to “LIBERATE” Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia. Several public-health officials left their jobs over harassment and threats.

It is no coincidence that other powerful nations that elected populist leaders—Brazil, Russia, India, and the United Kingdom—also fumbled their response to COVID‑19. “When you have people elected based on undermining trust in the government, what happens when trust is what you need the most?” says Sarah Dalglish of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, who studies the political determinants of health.

“Trump is president,” she says. “How could it go well?”

The countries that fared better against COVID‑19 didn’t follow a universal playbook. Many used masks widely; New Zealand didn’t. Many tested extensively; Japan didn’t. Many had science-minded leaders who acted early; Hong Kong didn’t—instead, a grassroots movement compensated for a lax government. Many were small islands; not large and continental Germany. Each nation succeeded because it did enough things right.

Meanwhile, the United States underperformed across the board, and its errors compounded. The dearth of tests allowed unconfirmed cases to create still more cases, which flooded the hospitals, which ran out of masks, which are necessary to limit the virus’s spread. Twitter amplified Trump’s misleading messages, which raised fear and anxiety among people, which led them to spend more time scouring for information on Twitter. Even seasoned health experts underestimated these compounded risks. Yes, having Trump at the helm during a pandemic was worrying, but it was tempting to think that national wealth and technological superiority would save America. “We are a rich country, and we think we can stop any infectious disease because of that,” says Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. “But dollar bills alone are no match against a virus.”

Public-health experts talk wearily about the panic-neglect cycle, in which outbreaks trigger waves of attention and funding that quickly dissipate once the diseases recede. This time around, the U.S. is already flirting with neglect, before the panic phase is over. The virus was never beaten in the spring, but many people, including Trump, pretended that it was. Every state reopened to varying degrees, and many subsequently saw record numbers of cases. After Arizona’s cases started climbing sharply at the end of May, Cara Christ, the director of the state’s health-services department, said, “We are not going to be able to stop the spread. And so we can’t stop living as well.” The virus may beg to differ.

At times, Americans have seemed to collectively surrender to COVID‑19. The White House’s coronavirus task force wound down. Trump resumed holding rallies, and called for less testing, so that official numbers would be rosier. The country behaved like a horror-movie character who believes the danger is over, even though the monster is still at large. The long wait for a vaccine will likely culminate in a predictable way: Many Americans will refuse to get it, and among those who want it, the most vulnerable will be last in line.

Still, there is some reason for hope. Many of the people I interviewed tentatively suggested that the upheaval wrought by COVID‑19 might be so large as to permanently change the nation’s disposition. Experience, after all, sharpens the mind. East Asian states that had lived through the SARS and MERS epidemics reacted quickly when threatened by SARS‑CoV‑2, spurred by a cultural memory of what a fast-moving coronavirus can do. But the U.S. had barely been touched by the major epidemics of past decades (with the exception of the H1N1 flu). In 2019, more Americans were concerned about terrorists and cyberattacks than about outbreaks of exotic diseases. Perhaps they will emerge from this pandemic with immunity both cellular and cultural.

There are also a few signs that Americans are learning important lessons. A June survey showed that 60 to 75 percent of Americans were still practicing social distancing. A partisan gap exists, but it has narrowed. “In public-opinion polling in the U.S., high-60s agreement on anything is an amazing accomplishment,” says Beth Redbird, a sociologist at Northwestern University, who led the survey. Polls in May also showed that most Democrats and Republicans supported mask wearing, and felt it should be mandatory in at least some indoor spaces. It is almost unheard-of for a public-health measure to go from zero to majority acceptance in less than half a year. But pandemics are rare situations when “people are desperate for guidelines and rules,” says Zoë McLaren, a health-policy professor at the University of Maryland at Baltimore County. The closest analogy is pregnancy, she says, which is “a time when women’s lives are changing, and they can absorb a ton of information. A pandemic is similar: People are actually paying attention, and learning.”

Redbird’s survey suggests that Americans indeed sought out new sources of information—and that consumers of news from conservative outlets, in particular, expanded their media diet. People of all political bents became more dissatisfied with the Trump administration. As the economy nose-dived, the health-care system ailed, and the government fumbled, belief in American exceptionalism declined. “Times of big social disruption call into question things we thought were normal and standard,” Redbird told me. “If our institutions fail us here, in what ways are they failing elsewhere?” And whom are they failing the most?

Americans were in the mood for systemic change. Then, on May 25, George Floyd, who had survived COVID‑19’s assault on his airway, asphyxiated under the crushing pressure of a police officer’s knee. The excruciating video of his killing circulated through communities that were still reeling from the deaths of Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, and disproportionate casualties from COVID‑19. America’s simmering outrage came to a boil and spilled into its streets.

Defiant and largely cloaked in masks, protesters turned out in more than 2,000 cities and towns. Support for Black Lives Matter soared: For the first time since its founding in 2013, the movement had majority approval across racial groups. These protests were not about the pandemic, but individual protesters had been primed by months of shocking governmental missteps. Even people who might once have ignored evidence of police brutality recognized yet another broken institution. They could no longer look away.

It is hard to stare directly at the biggest problems of our age. Pandemics, climate change, the sixth extinction of wildlife, food and water shortages—their scope is planetary, and their stakes are overwhelming. We have no choice, though, but to grapple with them. It is now abundantly clear what happens when global disasters collide with historical negligence.

COVID‑19 is an assault on America’s body, and a referendum on the ideas that animate its culture. Recovery is possible, but it demands radical introspection. America would be wise to help reverse the ruination of the natural world, a process that continues to shunt animal diseases into human bodies. It should strive to prevent sickness instead of profiting from it. It should build a health-care system that prizes resilience over brittle efficiency, and an information system that favors light over heat. It should rebuild its international alliances, its social safety net, and its trust in empiricism. It should address the health inequities that flow from its history. Not least, it should elect leaders with sound judgment, high character, and respect for science, logic, and reason.

The pandemic has been both tragedy and teacher. Its very etymology offers a clue about what is at stake in the greatest challenges of the future, and what is needed to address them. Pandemic. Pan and demos. All people.


ulank
(Planeteer)
08/06/20 05:33 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2020/08/05

SkyWave
(Planeteer)
08/06/20 08:32 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Another Republican has come down with COVID-19, Ohio governor DeWine. Cannot extend my sympathies to the mask-eschewing Covidiots.

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/06/20 08:42 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I see people here at Cape Cod not following what is good for the greater good. Mainly beaches and gangs of boaters, no masks, no distancing. Mobs of people from out of state hanging around boat launches maskless.

The next difficult problem will be returning college students in Boston coming from everywhere in the world and I have little faith the majority will be considerate for the greater good.

I never realized how dangerous Liberty can be for others.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/06/20 08:55 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: flatcat
This article in The Atlantic talks about what has happened to this point. It is titled How The Pandemic Defeated America.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/coronavirus-american-failure/614191/

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How the Pandemic Defeated America

A virus has brought the world’s most powerful country to its knees.


Story by Ed Yong
September 2020 Issue


Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here.


How did it come to this? A virus a thousand times smaller than a dust mote has humbled and humiliated the planet’s most powerful nation. America has failed to protect its people, leaving them with illness and financial ruin. It has lost its status as a global leader. It has careened between inaction and ineptitude. The breadth and magnitude of its errors are difficult, in the moment, to truly fathom.

In the first half of 2020, SARS‑CoV‑2—the new coronavirus behind the disease COVID‑19—infected 10 million people around the world and killed about half a million. But few countries have been as severely hit as the United States, which has just 4 percent of the world’s population but a quarter of its confirmed COVID‑19 cases and deaths. These numbers are estimates. The actual toll, though undoubtedly higher, is unknown, because the richest country in the world still lacks sufficient testing to accurately count its sick citizens.

Despite ample warning, the U.S. squandered every possible opportunity to control the coronavirus. And despite its considerable advantages—immense resources, biomedical might, scientific expertise—it floundered. While countries as different as South Korea, Thailand, Iceland, Slovakia, and Australia acted decisively to bend the curve of infections downward, the U.S. achieved merely a plateau in the spring, which changed to an appalling upward slope in the summer. “The U.S. fundamentally failed in ways that were worse than I ever could have imagined,” Julia Marcus, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at Harvard Medical School, told me.

Since the pandemic began, I have spoken with more than 100 experts in a variety of fields. I’ve learned that almost everything that went wrong with America’s response to the pandemic was predictable and preventable. A sluggish response by a government denuded of expertise allowed the coronavirus to gain a foothold. Chronic underfunding of public health neutered the nation’s ability to prevent the pathogen’s spread. A bloated, inefficient health-care system left hospitals ill-prepared for the ensuing wave of sickness. Racist policies that have endured since the days of colonization and slavery left Indigenous and Black Americans especially vulnerable to COVID‑19. The decades-long process of shredding the nation’s social safety net forced millions of essential workers in low-paying jobs to risk their life for their livelihood. The same social-media platforms that sowed partisanship and misinformation during the 2014 Ebola outbreak in Africa and the 2016 U.S. election became vectors for conspiracy theories during the 2020 pandemic.

The U.S. has little excuse for its inattention. In recent decades, epidemics of SARS, MERS, Ebola, H1N1 flu, Zika, and monkeypox showed the havoc that new and reemergent pathogens could wreak. Health experts, business leaders, and even middle schoolers ran simulated exercises to game out the spread of new diseases. In 2018, I wrote an article for The Atlantic arguing that the U.S. was not ready for a pandemic, and sounded warnings about the fragility of the nation’s health-care system and the slow process of creating a vaccine. But the COVID‑19 debacle has also touched—and implicated—nearly every other facet of American society: its shortsighted leadership, its disregard for expertise, its racial inequities, its social-media culture, and its fealty to a dangerous strain of individualism.

SARS‑CoV‑2 is something of an anti-Goldilocks virus: just bad enough in every way. Its symptoms can be severe enough to kill millions but are often mild enough to allow infections to move undetected through a population. It spreads quickly enough to overload hospitals, but slowly enough that statistics don’t spike until too late. These traits made the virus harder to control, but they also softened the pandemic’s punch. SARS‑CoV‑2 is neither as lethal as some other coronaviruses, such as SARS and MERS, nor as contagious as measles. Deadlier pathogens almost certainly exist. Wild animals harbor an estimated 40,000 unknown viruses, a quarter of which could potentially jump into humans. How will the U.S. fare when “we can’t even deal with a starter pandemic?,” Zeynep Tufekci, a sociologist at the University of North Carolina and an Atlantic contributing writer, asked me.

Despite its epochal effects, COVID‑19 is merely a harbinger of worse plagues to come. The U.S. cannot prepare for these inevitable crises if it returns to normal, as many of its people ache to do. Normal led to this. Normal was a world ever more prone to a pandemic but ever less ready for one. To avert another catastrophe, the U.S. needs to grapple with all the ways normal failed us. It needs a full accounting of every recent misstep and foundational sin, every unattended weakness and unheeded warning, every festering wound and reopened scar.

A pandemic can be prevented in two ways: Stop an infection from ever arising, or stop an infection from becoming thousands more. The first way is likely impossible. There are simply too many viruses and too many animals that harbor them. Bats alone could host thousands of unknown coronaviruses; in some Chinese caves, one out of every 20 bats is infected. Many people live near these caves, shelter in them, or collect guano from them for fertilizer. Thousands of bats also fly over these people’s villages and roost in their homes, creating opportunities for the bats’ viral stowaways to spill over into human hosts. Based on antibody testing in rural parts of China, Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, a nonprofit that studies emerging diseases, estimates that such viruses infect a substantial number of people every year. “Most infected people don’t know about it, and most of the viruses aren’t transmissible,” Daszak says. But it takes just one transmissible virus to start a pandemic.

Sometime in late 2019, the wrong virus left a bat and ended up, perhaps via an intermediate host, in a human—and another, and another. Eventually it found its way to the Huanan seafood market, and jumped into dozens of new hosts in an explosive super-spreading event. The COVID‑19 pandemic had begun.

“There is no way to get spillover of everything to zero,” Colin Carlson, an ecologist at Georgetown University, told me. Many conservationists jump on epidemics as opportunities to ban the wildlife trade or the eating of “bush meat,” an exoticized term for “game,” but few diseases have emerged through either route. Carlson said the biggest factors behind spillovers are land-use change and climate change, both of which are hard to control. Our species has relentlessly expanded into previously wild spaces. Through intensive agriculture, habitat destruction, and rising temperatures, we have uprooted the planet’s animals, forcing them into new and narrower ranges that are on our own doorsteps. Humanity has squeezed the world’s wildlife in a crushing grip—and viruses have come bursting out.

Curtailing those viruses after they spill over is more feasible, but requires knowledge, transparency, and decisiveness that were lacking in 2020. Much about coronaviruses is still unknown. There are no surveillance networks for detecting them as there are for influenza. There are no approved treatments or vaccines. Coronaviruses were formerly a niche family, of mainly veterinary importance. Four decades ago, just 60 or so scientists attended the first international meeting on coronaviruses. Their ranks swelled after SARS swept the world in 2003, but quickly dwindled as a spike in funding vanished. The same thing happened after MERS emerged in 2012. This year, the world’s coronavirus experts—and there still aren’t many—had to postpone their triennial conference in the Netherlands because SARS‑CoV‑2 made flying too risky.

In the age of cheap air travel, an outbreak that begins on one continent can easily reach the others. SARS already demonstrated that in 2003, and more than twice as many people now travel by plane every year. To avert a pandemic, affected nations must alert their neighbors quickly. In 2003, China covered up the early spread of SARS, allowing the new disease to gain a foothold, and in 2020, history repeated itself. The Chinese government downplayed the possibility that SARS‑CoV‑2 was spreading among humans, and only confirmed as much on January 20, after millions had traveled around the country for the lunar new year. Doctors who tried to raise the alarm were censured and threatened. One, Li Wenliang, later died of COVID‑19. The World Health Organization initially parroted China’s line and did not declare a public-health emergency of international concern until January 30. By then, an estimated 10,000 people in 20 countries had been infected, and the virus was spreading fast.

The United States has correctly castigated China for its duplicity and the WHO for its laxity—but the U.S. has also failed the international community. Under President Donald Trump, the U.S. has withdrawn from several international partnerships and antagonized its allies. It has a seat on the WHO’s executive board, but left that position empty for more than two years, only filling it this May, when the pandemic was in full swing. Since 2017, Trump has pulled more than 30 staffers out of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s office in China, who could have warned about the spreading coronavirus. Last July, he defunded an American epidemiologist embedded within China’s CDC. America First was America oblivious.

Even after warnings reached the U.S., they fell on the wrong ears. Since before his election, Trump has cavalierly dismissed expertise and evidence. He filled his administration with inexperienced newcomers, while depicting career civil servants as part of a “deep state.” In 2018, he dismantled an office that had been assembled specifically to prepare for nascent pandemics. American intelligence agencies warned about the coronavirus threat in January, but Trump habitually disregards intelligence briefings. The secretary of health and human services, Alex Azar, offered similar counsel, and was twice ignored.

Being prepared means being ready to spring into action, “so that when something like this happens, you’re moving quickly,” Ronald Klain, who coordinated the U.S. response to the West African Ebola outbreak in 2014, told me. “By early February, we should have triggered a series of actions, precisely zero of which were taken.” Trump could have spent those crucial early weeks mass-producing tests to detect the virus, asking companies to manufacture protective equipment and ventilators, and otherwise steeling the nation for the worst. Instead, he focused on the border. On January 31, Trump announced that the U.S. would bar entry to foreigners who had recently been in China, and urged Americans to avoid going there.

Travel bans make intuitive sense, because travel obviously enables the spread of a virus. But in practice, travel bans are woefully inefficient at restricting either travel or viruses. They prompt people to seek indirect routes via third-party countries, or to deliberately hide their symptoms. They are often porous: Trump’s included numerous exceptions, and allowed tens of thousands of people to enter from China. Ironically, they create travel: When Trump later announced a ban on flights from continental Europe, a surge of travelers packed America’s airports in a rush to beat the incoming restrictions. Travel bans may sometimes work for remote island nations, but in general they can only delay the spread of an epidemic—not stop it. And they can create a harmful false confidence, so countries “rely on bans to the exclusion of the things they actually need to do—testing, tracing, building up the health system,” says Thomas Bollyky, a global-health expert at the Council on Foreign Relations. “That sounds an awful lot like what happened in the U.S.”

This was predictable. A president who is fixated on an ineffectual border wall, and has portrayed asylum seekers as vectors of disease, was always going to reach for travel bans as a first resort. And Americans who bought into his rhetoric of xenophobia and isolationism were going to be especially susceptible to thinking that simple entry controls were a panacea.

And so the U.S. wasted its best chance of restraining COVID‑19. Although the disease first arrived in the U.S. in mid-January, genetic evidence shows that the specific viruses that triggered the first big outbreaks, in Washington State, didn’t land until mid-February. The country could have used that time to prepare. Instead, Trump, who had spent his entire presidency learning that he could say whatever he wanted without consequence, assured Americans that “the coronavirus is very much under control,” and “like a miracle, it will disappear.” With impunity, Trump lied. With impunity, the virus spread.

On February 26, Trump asserted that cases were “going to be down to close to zero.” Over the next two months, at least 1 million Americans were infected.

As the coronavirus established itself in the U.S., it found a nation through which it could spread easily, without being detected. For years, Pardis Sabeti, a virologist at the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, has been trying to create a surveillance network that would allow hospitals in every major U.S. city to quickly track new viruses through genetic sequencing. Had that network existed, once Chinese scientists published SARS‑CoV‑2’s genome on January 11, every American hospital would have been able to develop its own diagnostic test in preparation for the virus’s arrival. “I spent a lot of time trying to convince many funders to fund it,” Sabeti told me. “I never got anywhere.”

The CDC developed and distributed its own diagnostic tests in late January. These proved useless because of a faulty chemical component. Tests were in such short supply, and the criteria for getting them were so laughably stringent, that by the end of February, tens of thousands of Americans had likely been infected but only hundreds had been tested. The official data were so clearly wrong that The Atlantic developed its own volunteer-led initiative—the COVID Tracking Project—to count cases.

Diagnostic tests are easy to make, so the U.S. failing to create one seemed inconceivable. Worse, it had no Plan B. Private labs were strangled by FDA bureaucracy. Meanwhile, Sabeti’s lab developed a diagnostic test in mid-January and sent it to colleagues in Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Senegal. “We had working diagnostics in those countries well before we did in any U.S. states,” she told me.

It’s hard to overstate how thoroughly the testing debacle incapacitated the U.S. People with debilitating symptoms couldn’t find out what was wrong with them. Health officials couldn’t cut off chains of transmission by identifying people who were sick and asking them to isolate themselves.

Water running along a pavement will readily seep into every crack; so, too, did the unchecked coronavirus seep into every fault line in the modern world. Consider our buildings. In response to the global energy crisis of the 1970s, architects made structures more energy-efficient by sealing them off from outdoor air, reducing ventilation rates. Pollutants and pathogens built up indoors, “ushering in the era of ‘sick buildings,’ ” says Joseph Allen, who studies environmental health at Harvard’s T. H. Chan School of Public Health. Energy efficiency is a pillar of modern climate policy, but there are ways to achieve it without sacrificing well-being. “We lost our way over the years and stopped designing buildings for people,” Allen says.

The indoor spaces in which Americans spend 87 percent of their time became staging grounds for super-spreading events. One study showed that the odds of catching the virus from an infected person are roughly 19 times higher indoors than in open air. Shielded from the elements and among crowds clustered in prolonged proximity, the coronavirus ran rampant in the conference rooms of a Boston hotel, the cabins of the Diamond Princess cruise ship, and a church hall in Washington State where a choir practiced for just a few hours.

The hardest-hit buildings were those that had been jammed with people for decades: prisons. Between harsher punishments doled out in the War on Drugs and a tough-on-crime mindset that prizes retribution over rehabilitation, America’s incarcerated population has swelled sevenfold since the 1970s, to about 2.3 million. The U.S. imprisons five to 18 times more people per capita than other Western democracies. Many American prisons are packed beyond capacity, making social distancing impossible. Soap is often scarce. Inevitably, the coronavirus ran amok. By June, two American prisons each accounted for more cases than all of New Zealand. One, Marion Correctional Institution, in Ohio, had more than 2,000 cases among inmates despite having a capacity of 1,500. 


Other densely packed facilities were also besieged. America’s nursing homes and long-term-care facilities house less than 1 percent of its people, but as of mid-June, they accounted for 40 percent of its coronavirus deaths. More than 50,000 residents and staff have died. At least 250,000 more have been infected. These grim figures are a reflection not just of the greater harms that COVID‑19 inflicts upon elderly physiology, but also of the care the elderly receive. Before the pandemic, three in four nursing homes were understaffed, and four in five had recently been cited for failures in infection control. The Trump administration’s policies have exacerbated the problem by reducing the influx of immigrants, who make up a quarter of long-term caregivers.

Even though a Seattle nursing home was one of the first COVID‑19 hot spots in the U.S., similar facilities weren’t provided with tests and protective equipment. Rather than girding these facilities against the pandemic, the Department of Health and Human Services paused nursing-home inspections in March, passing the buck to the states. Some nursing homes avoided the virus because their owners immediately stopped visitations, or paid caregivers to live on-site. But in others, staff stopped working, scared about infecting their charges or becoming infected themselves. In some cases, residents had to be evacuated because no one showed up to care for them.

America’s neglect of nursing homes and prisons, its sick buildings, and its botched deployment of tests are all indicative of its problematic attitude toward health: “Get hospitals ready and wait for sick people to show,” as Sheila Davis, the CEO of the nonprofit Partners in Health, puts it. “Especially in the beginning, we catered our entire [COVID‑19] response to the 20 percent of people who required hospitalization, rather than preventing transmission in the community.” The latter is the job of the public-health system, which prevents sickness in populations instead of merely treating it in individuals. That system pairs uneasily with a national temperament that views health as a matter of personal responsibility rather than a collective good.

At the end of the 20th century, public-health improvements meant that Americans were living an average of 30 years longer than they were at the start of it. Maternal mortality had fallen by 99 percent; infant mortality by 90 percent. Fortified foods all but eliminated rickets and goiters. Vaccines eradicated smallpox and polio, and brought measles, diphtheria, and rubella to heel. These measures, coupled with antibiotics and better sanitation, curbed infectious diseases to such a degree that some scientists predicted they would soon pass into history. But instead, these achievements brought complacency. “As public health did its job, it became a target” of budget cuts, says Lori Freeman, the CEO of the National Association of County and City Health Officials.

Today, the U.S. spends just 2.5 percent of its gigantic health-care budget on public health. Underfunded health departments were already struggling to deal with opioid addiction, climbing obesity rates, contaminated water, and easily preventable diseases. Last year saw the most measles cases since 1992. In 2018, the U.S. had 115,000 cases of syphilis and 580,000 cases of gonorrhea—numbers not seen in almost three decades. It has 1.7 million cases of chlamydia, the highest number ever recorded.

Since the last recession, in 2009, chronically strapped local health departments have lost 55,000 jobs—a quarter of their workforce. When COVID‑19 arrived, the economic downturn forced overstretched departments to furlough more employees. When states needed battalions of public-health workers to find infected people and trace their contacts, they had to hire and train people from scratch. In May, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan asserted that his state would soon have enough people to trace 10,000 contacts every day. Last year, as Ebola tore through the Democratic Republic of Congo—a country with a quarter of Maryland’s wealth and an active war zone—local health workers and the WHO traced twice as many people.

Ripping unimpeded through American communities, the coronavirus created thousands of sickly hosts that it then rode into America’s hospitals. It should have found facilities armed with state-of-the-art medical technologies, detailed pandemic plans, and ample supplies of protective equipment and life-saving medicines. Instead, it found a brittle system in danger of collapse.

Compared with the average wealthy nation, America spends nearly twice as much of its national wealth on health care, about a quarter of which is wasted on inefficient care, unnecessary treatments, and administrative chicanery. The U.S. gets little bang for its exorbitant buck. It has the lowest life-expectancy rate of comparable countries, the highest rates of chronic disease, and the fewest doctors per person. This profit-driven system has scant incentive to invest in spare beds, stockpiled supplies, peacetime drills, and layered contingency plans—the essence of pandemic preparedness. America’s hospitals have been pruned and stretched by market forces to run close to full capacity, with little ability to adapt in a crisis.

When hospitals do create pandemic plans, they tend to fight the last war. After 2014, several centers created specialized treatment units designed for Ebola—a highly lethal but not very contagious disease. These units were all but useless against a highly transmissible airborne virus like SARS‑CoV‑2. Nor were hospitals ready for an outbreak to drag on for months. Emergency plans assumed that staff could endure a few days of exhausting conditions, that supplies would hold, and that hard-hit centers could be supported by unaffected neighbors. “We’re designed for discrete disasters” like mass shootings, traffic pileups, and hurricanes, says Esther Choo, an emergency physician at Oregon Health and Science University. The COVID‑19 pandemic is not a discrete disaster. It is a 50-state catastrophe that will likely continue at least until a vaccine is ready.

Wherever the coronavirus arrived, hospitals reeled. Several states asked medical students to graduate early, reenlisted retired doctors, and deployed dermatologists to emergency departments. Doctors and nurses endured grueling shifts, their faces chapped and bloody when they finally doffed their protective equipment. Soon, that equipment—masks, respirators, gowns, gloves—started running out.

American hospitals operate on a just-in-time economy. They acquire the goods they need in the moment through labyrinthine supply chains that wrap around the world in tangled lines, from countries with cheap labor to richer nations like the U.S. The lines are invisible until they snap. About half of the world’s face masks, for example, are made in China, some of them in Hubei province. When that region became the pandemic epicenter, the mask supply shriveled just as global demand spiked. The Trump administration turned to a larder of medical supplies called the Strategic National Stockpile, only to find that the 100 million respirators and masks that had been dispersed during the 2009 flu pandemic were never replaced. Just 13 million respirators were left.

In April, four in five frontline nurses said they didn’t have enough protective equipment. Some solicited donations from the public, or navigated a morass of back-alley deals and internet scams. Others fashioned their own surgical masks from bandannas and gowns from garbage bags. The supply of nasopharyngeal swabs that are used in every diagnostic test also ran low, because one of the largest manufacturers is based in Lombardy, Italy—initially the COVID‑19 capital of Europe. About 40 percent of critical-care drugs, including antibiotics and painkillers, became scarce because they depend on manufacturing lines that begin in China and India. Once a vaccine is ready, there might not be enough vials to put it in, because of the long-running global shortage of medical-grade glass—literally, a bottle-neck bottleneck.

The federal government could have mitigated those problems by buying supplies at economies of scale and distributing them according to need. Instead, in March, Trump told America’s governors to “try getting it yourselves.” As usual, health care was a matter of capitalism and connections. In New York, rich hospitals bought their way out of their protective-equipment shortfall, while neighbors in poorer, more diverse parts of the city rationed their supplies.

While the president prevaricated, Americans acted. Businesses sent their employees home. People practiced social distancing, even before Trump finally declared a national emergency on March 13, and before governors and mayors subsequently issued formal stay-at-home orders, or closed schools, shops, and restaurants. A study showed that the U.S. could have averted 36,000 COVID‑19 deaths if leaders had enacted social-distancing measures just a week earlier. But better late than never: By collectively reducing the spread of the virus, America flattened the curve. Ventilators didn’t run out, as they had in parts of Italy. Hospitals had time to add extra beds.

Social distancing worked. But the indiscriminate lockdown was necessary only because America’s leaders wasted months of prep time. Deploying this blunt policy instrument came at enormous cost. Unemployment rose to 14.7 percent, the highest level since record-keeping began, in 1948. More than 26 million people lost their jobs, a catastrophe in a country that—uniquely and absurdly—ties health care to employment. Some COVID‑19 survivors have been hit with seven-figure medical bills. In the middle of the greatest health and economic crises in generations, millions of Americans have found themselves disconnected from medical care and impoverished. They join the millions who have always lived that way.

The coronavirus found, exploited, and widened every inequity that the U.S. had to offer. Elderly people, already pushed to the fringes of society, were treated as acceptable losses. Women were more likely to lose jobs than men, and also shouldered extra burdens of child care and domestic work, while facing rising rates of domestic violence. In half of the states, people with dementia and intellectual disabilities faced policies that threatened to deny them access to lifesaving ventilators. Thousands of people endured months of COVID‑19 symptoms that resembled those of chronic postviral illnesses, only to be told that their devastating symptoms were in their head. Latinos were three times as likely to be infected as white people. Asian Americans faced racist abuse. Far from being a “great equalizer,” the pandemic fell unevenly upon the U.S., taking advantage of injustices that had been brewing throughout the nation’s history.

Of the 3.1 million Americans who cannot afford health insurance, more than half are people of color, and 30 percent are Black. This is no accident. In the decades after the Civil War, the white leaders of former slave states deliberately withheld health care from Black Americans, apportioning medicine more according to the logic of Jim Crow than Hippocrates. They built hospitals away from Black communities, segregated Black patients into separate wings, and blocked Black students from medical school. In the 20th century, they helped construct America’s system of private, employer-based insurance, which has kept many Black people from receiving adequate medical treatment. They fought every attempt to improve Black people’s access to health care, from the creation of Medicare and Medicaid in the ’60s to the passage of the Affordable Care Act in 2010.

A number of former slave states also have among the lowest investments in public health, the lowest quality of medical care, the highest proportions of Black citizens, and the greatest racial divides in health outcomes. As the COVID‑19 pandemic wore on, they were among the quickest to lift social-distancing restrictions and reexpose their citizens to the coronavirus. The harms of these moves were unduly foisted upon the poor and the Black.

As of early July, one in every 1,450 Black Americans had died from COVID‑19—a rate more than twice that of white Americans. That figure is both tragic and wholly expected given the mountain of medical disadvantages that Black people face. Compared with white people, they die three years younger. Three times as many Black mothers die during pregnancy. Black people have higher rates of chronic illnesses that predispose them to fatal cases of COVID‑19. When they go to hospitals, they’re less likely to be treated. The care they do receive tends to be poorer. Aware of these biases, Black people are hesitant to seek aid for COVID‑19 symptoms and then show up at hospitals in sicker states. “One of my patients said, ‘I don’t want to go to the hospital, because they’re not going to treat me well,’ ” says Uché Blackstock, an emergency physician and the founder of Advancing Health Equity, a nonprofit that fights bias and racism in health care. “Another whispered to me, ‘I’m so relieved you’re Black. I just want to make sure I’m listened to.’ ”

Black people were both more worried about the pandemic and more likely to be infected by it. The dismantling of America’s social safety net left Black people with less income and higher unemployment. They make up a disproportionate share of the low-paid “essential workers” who were expected to staff grocery stores and warehouses, clean buildings, and deliver mail while the pandemic raged around them. Earning hourly wages without paid sick leave, they couldn’t afford to miss shifts even when symptomatic. They faced risky commutes on crowded public transportation while more privileged people teleworked from the safety of isolation. “There’s nothing about Blackness that makes you more prone to COVID,” says Nicolette Louissaint, the executive director of Healthcare Ready, a nonprofit that works to strengthen medical supply chains. Instead, existing inequities stack the odds in favor of the virus.

Native Americans were similarly vulnerable. A third of the people in the Navajo Nation can’t easily wash their hands, because they’ve been embroiled in long-running negotiations over the rights to the water on their own lands. Those with water must contend with runoff from uranium mines. Most live in cramped multigenerational homes, far from the few hospitals that service a 17-million-acre reservation. As of mid-May, the Navajo Nation had higher rates of COVID‑19 infections than any U.S. state.

Americans often misperceive historical inequities as personal failures. Stephen Huffman, a Republican state senator and doctor in Ohio, suggested that Black Americans might be more prone to COVID‑19 because they don’t wash their hands enough, a remark for which he later apologized. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, also a physician, noted that Black people have higher rates of chronic disease, as if this were an answer in itself, and not a pattern that demanded further explanation.

Clear distribution of accurate information is among the most important defenses against an epidemic’s spread. And yet the largely unregulated, social-media-based communications infrastructure of the 21st century almost ensures that misinformation will proliferate fast. “In every outbreak throughout the existence of social media, from Zika to Ebola, conspiratorial communities immediately spread their content about how it’s all caused by some government or pharmaceutical company or Bill Gates,” says Renée DiResta of the Stanford Internet Observatory, who studies the flow of online information. When COVID‑19 arrived, “there was no doubt in my mind that it was coming.”

Sure enough, existing conspiracy theories—George Soros! 5G! Bioweapons!—were repurposed for the pandemic. An infodemic of falsehoods spread alongside the actual virus. Rumors coursed through online platforms that are designed to keep users engaged, even if that means feeding them content that is polarizing or untrue. In a national crisis, when people need to act in concert, this is calamitous. “The social internet as a system is broken,” DiResta told me, and its faults are readily abused.

Beginning on April 16, DiResta’s team noticed growing online chatter about Judy Mikovits, a discredited researcher turned anti-vaccination champion. Posts and videos cast Mikovits as a whistleblower who claimed that the new coronavirus was made in a lab and described Anthony Fauci of the White House’s coronavirus task force as her nemesis. Ironically, this conspiracy theory was nested inside a larger conspiracy—part of an orchestrated PR campaign by an anti-vaxxer and QAnon fan with the explicit goal to “take down Anthony Fauci.” It culminated in a slickly produced video called Plandemic, which was released on May 4. More than 8 million people watched it in a week.

Doctors and journalists tried to debunk Plandemic’s many misleading claims, but these efforts spread less successfully than the video itself. Like pandemics, infodemics quickly become uncontrollable unless caught early. But while health organizations recognize the need to surveil for emerging diseases, they are woefully unprepared to do the same for emerging conspiracies. In 2016, when DiResta spoke with a CDC team about the threat of misinformation, “their response was: ‘ That’s interesting, but that’s just stuff that happens on the internet.’ ”

Rather than countering misinformation during the pandemic’s early stages, trusted sources often made things worse. Many health experts and government officials downplayed the threat of the virus in January and February, assuring the public that it posed a low risk to the U.S. and drawing comparisons to the ostensibly greater threat of the flu. The WHO, the CDC, and the U.S. surgeon general urged people not to wear masks, hoping to preserve the limited stocks for health-care workers. These messages were offered without nuance or acknowledgement of uncertainty, so when they were reversed—the virus is worse than the flu; wear masks—the changes seemed like befuddling flip-flops.

The media added to the confusion. Drawn to novelty, journalists gave oxygen to fringe anti-lockdown protests while most Americans quietly stayed home. They wrote up every incremental scientific claim, even those that hadn’t been verified or peer-reviewed.

There were many such claims to choose from. By tying career advancement to the publishing of papers, academia already creates incentives for scientists to do attention-grabbing but irreproducible work. The pandemic strengthened those incentives by prompting a rush of panicked research and promising ambitious scientists global attention.

In March, a small and severely flawed French study suggested that the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine could treat COVID‑19. Published in a minor journal, it likely would have been ignored a decade ago. But in 2020, it wended its way to Donald Trump via a chain of credulity that included Fox News, Elon Musk, and Dr. Oz. Trump spent months touting the drug as a miracle cure despite mounting evidence to the contrary, causing shortages for people who actually needed it to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. The hydroxychloroquine story was muddied even further by two studies published in top medical journals—The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine—that claimed the drug was not effective and was potentially harmful. The papers relied on suspect data from a small analytics company called Surgisphere. Both were retracted in June.

Science famously self-corrects. But during the pandemic, the same urgent pace that has produced valuable knowledge at record speed has also sent sloppy claims around the world before anyone could even raise a skeptical eyebrow. The ensuing confusion, and the many genuine unknowns about the virus, has created a vortex of fear and uncertainty, which grifters have sought to exploit. Snake-oil merchants have peddled ineffectual silver bullets (including actual silver). Armchair experts with scant or absent qualifications have found regular slots on the nightly news. And at the center of that confusion is Donald Trump.

During a pandemic, leaders must rally the public, tell the truth, and speak clearly and consistently. Instead, Trump repeatedly contradicted public-health experts, his scientific advisers, and himself. He said that “nobody ever thought a thing like [the pandemic] could happen” and also that he “felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.” Both statements cannot be true at the same time, and in fact neither is true.

A month before his inauguration, I wrote that “the question isn’t whether [Trump will] face a deadly outbreak during his presidency, but when.” Based on his actions as a media personality during the 2014 Ebola outbreak and as a candidate in the 2016 election, I suggested that he would fail at diplomacy, close borders, tweet rashly, spread conspiracy theories, ignore experts, and exhibit reckless self-confidence. And so he did.

No one should be shocked that a liar who has made almost 20,000 false or misleading claims during his presidency would lie about whether the U.S. had the pandemic under control; that a racist who gave birth to birtherism would do little to stop a virus that was disproportionately killing Black people; that a xenophobe who presided over the creation of new immigrant-detention centers would order meatpacking plants with a substantial immigrant workforce to remain open; that a cruel man devoid of empathy would fail to calm fearful citizens; that a narcissist who cannot stand to be upstaged would refuse to tap the deep well of experts at his disposal; that a scion of nepotism would hand control of a shadow coronavirus task force to his unqualified son-in-law; that an armchair polymath would claim to have a “natural ability” at medicine and display it by wondering out loud about the curative potential of injecting disinfectant; that an egotist incapable of admitting failure would try to distract from his greatest one by blaming China, defunding the WHO, and promoting miracle drugs; or that a president who has been shielded by his party from any shred of accountability would say, when asked about the lack of testing, “I don’t take any responsibility at all.”

Trump is a comorbidity of the COVID‑19 pandemic. He isn’t solely responsible for America’s fiasco, but he is central to it. A pandemic demands the coordinated efforts of dozens of agencies. “In the best circumstances, it’s hard to make the bureaucracy move quickly,” Ron Klain said. “It moves if the president stands on a table and says, ‘Move quickly.’ But it really doesn’t move if he’s sitting at his desk saying it’s not a big deal.”

In the early days of Trump’s presidency, many believed that America’s institutions would check his excesses. They have, in part, but Trump has also corrupted them. The CDC is but his latest victim. On February 25, the agency’s respiratory-disease chief, Nancy Messonnier, shocked people by raising the possibility of school closures and saying that “disruption to everyday life might be severe.” Trump was reportedly enraged. In response, he seems to have benched the entire agency. The CDC led the way in every recent domestic disease outbreak and has been the inspiration and template for public-health agencies around the world. But during the three months when some 2 million Americans contracted COVID‑19 and the death toll topped 100,000, the agency didn’t hold a single press conference. Its detailed guidelines on reopening the country were shelved for a month while the White House released its own uselessly vague plan.

Again, everyday Americans did more than the White House. By voluntarily agreeing to months of social distancing, they bought the country time, at substantial cost to their financial and mental well-being. Their sacrifice came with an implicit social contract—that the government would use the valuable time to mobilize an extraordinary, energetic effort to suppress the virus, as did the likes of Germany and Singapore. But the government did not, to the bafflement of health experts. “There are instances in history where humanity has really moved mountains to defeat infectious diseases,” says Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. “It’s appalling that we in the U.S. have not summoned that energy around COVID‑19.”

Instead, the U.S. sleepwalked into the worst possible scenario: People suffered all the debilitating effects of a lockdown with few of the benefits. Most states felt compelled to reopen without accruing enough tests or contact tracers. In April and May, the nation was stuck on a terrible plateau, averaging 20,000 to 30,000 new cases every day. In June, the plateau again became an upward slope, soaring to record-breaking heights.

Trump never rallied the country. Despite declaring himself a “wartime president,” he merely presided over a culture war, turning public health into yet another politicized cage match. Abetted by supporters in the conservative media, he framed measures that protect against the virus, from masks to social distancing, as liberal and anti-American. Armed anti-lockdown protesters demonstrated at government buildings while Trump egged them on, urging them to “LIBERATE” Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia. Several public-health officials left their jobs over harassment and threats.

It is no coincidence that other powerful nations that elected populist leaders—Brazil, Russia, India, and the United Kingdom—also fumbled their response to COVID‑19. “When you have people elected based on undermining trust in the government, what happens when trust is what you need the most?” says Sarah Dalglish of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, who studies the political determinants of health.

“Trump is president,” she says. “How could it go well?”

The countries that fared better against COVID‑19 didn’t follow a universal playbook. Many used masks widely; New Zealand didn’t. Many tested extensively; Japan didn’t. Many had science-minded leaders who acted early; Hong Kong didn’t—instead, a grassroots movement compensated for a lax government. Many were small islands; not large and continental Germany. Each nation succeeded because it did enough things right.

Meanwhile, the United States underperformed across the board, and its errors compounded. The dearth of tests allowed unconfirmed cases to create still more cases, which flooded the hospitals, which ran out of masks, which are necessary to limit the virus’s spread. Twitter amplified Trump’s misleading messages, which raised fear and anxiety among people, which led them to spend more time scouring for information on Twitter. Even seasoned health experts underestimated these compounded risks. Yes, having Trump at the helm during a pandemic was worrying, but it was tempting to think that national wealth and technological superiority would save America. “We are a rich country, and we think we can stop any infectious disease because of that,” says Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. “But dollar bills alone are no match against a virus.”

Public-health experts talk wearily about the panic-neglect cycle, in which outbreaks trigger waves of attention and funding that quickly dissipate once the diseases recede. This time around, the U.S. is already flirting with neglect, before the panic phase is over. The virus was never beaten in the spring, but many people, including Trump, pretended that it was. Every state reopened to varying degrees, and many subsequently saw record numbers of cases. After Arizona’s cases started climbing sharply at the end of May, Cara Christ, the director of the state’s health-services department, said, “We are not going to be able to stop the spread. And so we can’t stop living as well.” The virus may beg to differ.

At times, Americans have seemed to collectively surrender to COVID‑19. The White House’s coronavirus task force wound down. Trump resumed holding rallies, and called for less testing, so that official numbers would be rosier. The country behaved like a horror-movie character who believes the danger is over, even though the monster is still at large. The long wait for a vaccine will likely culminate in a predictable way: Many Americans will refuse to get it, and among those who want it, the most vulnerable will be last in line.

Still, there is some reason for hope. Many of the people I interviewed tentatively suggested that the upheaval wrought by COVID‑19 might be so large as to permanently change the nation’s disposition. Experience, after all, sharpens the mind. East Asian states that had lived through the SARS and MERS epidemics reacted quickly when threatened by SARS‑CoV‑2, spurred by a cultural memory of what a fast-moving coronavirus can do. But the U.S. had barely been touched by the major epidemics of past decades (with the exception of the H1N1 flu). In 2019, more Americans were concerned about terrorists and cyberattacks than about outbreaks of exotic diseases. Perhaps they will emerge from this pandemic with immunity both cellular and cultural.

There are also a few signs that Americans are learning important lessons. A June survey showed that 60 to 75 percent of Americans were still practicing social distancing. A partisan gap exists, but it has narrowed. “In public-opinion polling in the U.S., high-60s agreement on anything is an amazing accomplishment,” says Beth Redbird, a sociologist at Northwestern University, who led the survey. Polls in May also showed that most Democrats and Republicans supported mask wearing, and felt it should be mandatory in at least some indoor spaces. It is almost unheard-of for a public-health measure to go from zero to majority acceptance in less than half a year. But pandemics are rare situations when “people are desperate for guidelines and rules,” says Zoë McLaren, a health-policy professor at the University of Maryland at Baltimore County. The closest analogy is pregnancy, she says, which is “a time when women’s lives are changing, and they can absorb a ton of information. A pandemic is similar: People are actually paying attention, and learning.”

Redbird’s survey suggests that Americans indeed sought out new sources of information—and that consumers of news from conservative outlets, in particular, expanded their media diet. People of all political bents became more dissatisfied with the Trump administration. As the economy nose-dived, the health-care system ailed, and the government fumbled, belief in American exceptionalism declined. “Times of big social disruption call into question things we thought were normal and standard,” Redbird told me. “If our institutions fail us here, in what ways are they failing elsewhere?” And whom are they failing the most?

Americans were in the mood for systemic change. Then, on May 25, George Floyd, who had survived COVID‑19’s assault on his airway, asphyxiated under the crushing pressure of a police officer’s knee. The excruciating video of his killing circulated through communities that were still reeling from the deaths of Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, and disproportionate casualties from COVID‑19. America’s simmering outrage came to a boil and spilled into its streets.

Defiant and largely cloaked in masks, protesters turned out in more than 2,000 cities and towns. Support for Black Lives Matter soared: For the first time since its founding in 2013, the movement had majority approval across racial groups. These protests were not about the pandemic, but individual protesters had been primed by months of shocking governmental missteps. Even people who might once have ignored evidence of police brutality recognized yet another broken institution. They could no longer look away.

It is hard to stare directly at the biggest problems of our age. Pandemics, climate change, the sixth extinction of wildlife, food and water shortages—their scope is planetary, and their stakes are overwhelming. We have no choice, though, but to grapple with them. It is now abundantly clear what happens when global disasters collide with historical negligence.

COVID‑19 is an assault on America’s body, and a referendum on the ideas that animate its culture. Recovery is possible, but it demands radical introspection. America would be wise to help reverse the ruination of the natural world, a process that continues to shunt animal diseases into human bodies. It should strive to prevent sickness instead of profiting from it. It should build a health-care system that prizes resilience over brittle efficiency, and an information system that favors light over heat. It should rebuild its international alliances, its social safety net, and its trust in empiricism. It should address the health inequities that flow from its history. Not least, it should elect leaders with sound judgment, high character, and respect for science, logic, and reason.

The pandemic has been both tragedy and teacher. Its very etymology offers a clue about what is at stake in the greatest challenges of the future, and what is needed to address them. Pandemic. Pan and demos. All people.


holy crap,
that's a lot of alphabet


WishAdministrator
(Planeteer)
08/06/20 08:58 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Thanks for quoting it.



gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/06/20 10:11 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

i wanted to make sure it didn't get lost in the crush of data here...

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/06/20 10:37 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Being an Exceptional Nation we need to hit 300K and Liberty will get us there.

God Bless America


flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/07/20 04:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

I thought it was a good article with a lot of good information in it, and worth sharing both in the link and here.

It's interesting to think about the fact that public health has been so successful in the U.S., people don't support it any more. They don't understand it. They think it has to do with their insurance or going to their doctor. But that isn't public health. Public health is about the health of the community, of the society.

In some ways, it's the same problem with how successful we have been at cleaning the air and the water. People think "Oh, it's clean, now it's creating problems for factories, it won't be bad if they just spew pollution." I've been in the third world. People don't have any idea whatsoever what really bad pollution is like in the U.S. any more. It's unbelievable. Two weeks in Kabul in wintertime will make anyone understand how amazing this achievement is - and why it's important to preserve it.


Andy McClelland
(Planeteer)
08/07/20 05:51 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Tom - what is the cause of the pollution is Kabul?

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/07/20 07:54 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

If I was Kday I'd say Muslims.

flatcatAdministrator
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/07/20 08:59 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

 Originally Posted By: Andy McClelland
Tom - what is the cause of the pollution is Kabul?


In the wintertime, when it's at its worst, it's because people are burning anything and everything to stay warm.

Just to give you an idea, the U.S. AQI can get quite high. There were days when it was well over 1000 while I was there. You couldn't see very far in front of you.

It has the most extraordinary smell.


gonzo
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/07/20 09:07 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

sounds like the salt lake valley.
at times, the worst air in america.


SkyWave
(Planeteer)
08/07/20 09:21 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

The air in Seattle is mostly very good, the breezes blowing in over the Pacific are very helpful. I love the scent of saltwater in the air in the quiet of the night. A pleasant olfactory ambience is important wherever one goes.

In the summer of 2017 and 2018, August mostly, the air was thick with smoke pollution. The whole West was on fire: British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Colorado. There was no escaping it. Luckily, the fire season in the summers of 2019 and 2020 have been mild so far and nothing is smoked in.

Though California and Utah have a lot of fire burning and Australia has had horrendous fires that killed or displaced billions of animals. And to think we have only seen the beginning edges of global warming.


SkyWave
(Planeteer)
08/08/20 07:16 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

Bill Gates' critique of tRump handling of the COVID crisis and what should have been done.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-gates-cdc-covid-19-muzzled_n_5f2d8ce5c5b64d7a55f318ce


Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/09/20 03:53 AM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

We Are So Exceptional

Ismellelephant
(Loquacious Planeteer)
08/09/20 04:00 PM
Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are

What's Next Stop Signs Violate Liberty?