#1015165 - 12/06/10 11:20 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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Hey man, if you're looking for some outside stuff to mix, do you feel like doing one of mine? (before you start charging for the service!)
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#1015171 - 12/06/10 11:33 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: mike gouthro]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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Anyone care to list a few recently written songs where the songs themselves illustrate contemporary writing style - and then list some currently written traditional style songs for comparison?
I don't listen to any current stuff, so I can't help you there. But I can name some songs written old-style, like mine, songs that wouldn't get cut today.
We were talking about how great a singer Nat King Cole is. I believe most of his repertoire has grown out-dated, and his songs -- not his singing -- are the reason he is not revered today as the God of all singers. Do you think Mona Lisa or Lazy, Crazy, Hazy Days of Summer would get cut today? They were monster hits for him. Way back when.
But for non-Nat songs that are old and out of date, how about Mr. Bojangles. Do you think such a slow song with five verses and no bridge would be cut today? (Naturally I'm talking about major label acts. Do they even record songs in 12/8 these days?)
How about Cole Porter's "Night and Day" or any song by Porter, Berlin, Gershwin, Hoagy Carmichael, Rogers and Hart -- the so-called "Great American Songbook". Do you think Ludacris or Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift would touch one of those songs? Those are the kinds of songs I worship and aspire to write. Ancient though they are. Forgotten though they may be by today's market of downloaders.
Someone said "a good song is a good song". True. But that doesn't mean there's a market for it in 2010.
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#1015216 - 12/07/10 03:08 AM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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mike gouthro
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Registered: 04/20/99
Posts: 5027
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
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I think I’m misusing the term "contemporary" as it was introduced above.
Songs like Loser(Beck), What a Fool Believes, Fighter (Aguilera), Anything Goes, Still Crazy …use devices and constructs that are just not available to my brain – which enhances the appeal of those songs to me.
Songs like Avalon (David Gray), Piano Man, White Christmas, Let It Be use familiar devices and constructs to my ear - on a really lucky day I might produce something similar enough that could be used in a spoof movie e.g. The Ruttles
But all this is a distraction from the concept of this thread.
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#1015359 - 12/07/10 07:31 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: mike gouthro]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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Songs like Loser(Beck), What a Fool Believes, Fighter (Aguilera), Anything Goes, Still Crazy …use devices and constructs that are just not available to my brain – which enhances the appeal of those songs to me.
I'm curious what kind of "devices and constructs" you mean. Are you talking about something besides the chords? One of the reasons I adore those songs from the forties is because they have such classy chords.
But all this is a distraction from the concept of this thread.
I think it fits right in. I've been using this thread as a catch-all discussing all the various kinds of hurdles we face in the home recording process. In the very first post in this thread, I mentioned that songwriting is the biggest.
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#1015369 - 12/07/10 08:27 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: DAGtunes]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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A well written song with a great performance is timeless, isn't it?
Timeless in what way? Timeless in that old farts like me can sit around and remember the great old songs that nobody records any more? Songs from the days when melody meant something? The days when musicians could actually read music?
DAG, If one of today's superstars actually recorded some Hoagy Carmichael or Rogers/Hart songs, I would be happy to agree with you.
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#1015377 - 12/07/10 08:41 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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DAGtunes
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Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 7590
Loc: San Clemente, CA
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DAG, If one of today's superstars actually recorded some Hoagy Carmichael or Rogers/Hart songs, I would be happy to agree with you.
OK. I'll bite...
Herr Doktor, I think you're looking at the wrong barometer of success. The music you are referencing has been under the "mainstream/pop" radar for MANY, MANY years. It's not just the "music of today." It's the music of the last several decades that replaced it.
I would propose though that music of that caliber and quality is still being written - it's just never going to make the "mainstream/pop" charts. Unless it somehow has "cross-over" potential, or there is a strange fashion/culture fluke that thrusts those classic stylings in the public spotlight - kind of like when "swing (flavored) music" made a slight comeback in the mid 1990's.
You will find that kind of stuff on Jazz stations, and other "adult contemporary" oriented stations. Artists like Michael Buble', Harry Connick Jr, and even to some extent Brian Setzer are still slinging the "classic" sound.
Will it ever play on TRL/MTV? Not likely...though every once in a while some weird pop-culture shift will bring back an "extinct" style. It's usually a fad, and short lived.
That doesn't change your responsibility to try to craft the finest songs you can in the style that speaks to your muse. WHO CARES if the public likes it? It's expression. Your expression.
Chances are, there is an audience for it, too. But you'll have to get out to them. They're not going to find you.
FWIW...
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#1015379 - 12/07/10 08:48 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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mike gouthro
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Registered: 04/20/99
Posts: 5027
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
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Constructs could be: chord usage; use of sophisticated intro and mid sections that amazingly resolve back; complex jazz voicings that still carry an infectious hooky melody; sophisticated word play...
Devices could be: throbbing driving synth lines(Aguilera); merging rap and melody; drone grooves (Beck); songs defined by unique voices (Ah Ha) - I'm coming up thin here.
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#1015381 - 12/07/10 08:56 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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DAGtunes
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Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 7590
Loc: San Clemente, CA
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...Timeless in what way? Timeless in that old farts like me can sit around and remember the great old songs that nobody records any more? Songs from the days when melody meant something? The days when musicians could actually read music?
Timeless like "classic rock." Or even before that. Music that is good enough to stand the test of time.
Meaning, one can listen to it in the context of today, and still appreciate the craftsmanship and find value in it. A lot of music - past and present - will not pass that "litmus test."
As for "The days when musicians could actually read music?" I CAN read music, so I don't take any offense to that comment.
But I fail to see how that is a pre-requisite for composing/creating music? As a matter of fact, I've found that for some folks it is a hinderance. Some of the more "schooled" musicians I've known have trouble playing when they don't have a chart in front of them. They don't improvise well, or just have limited imaginations...not sure what it is.
And, I wouldn't be too quick to assume that every new artist is musically inept. The knowledge base for modern musicians is incredible. There are more 4-6 year old "virtuoso" pianists than ever! The computer age has made access to information, and even real-time music training, easier than ever before.
FWIW...
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#1015383 - 12/07/10 08:59 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: DAGtunes]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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what are we talking about now?
regardless.. I'm worst at telling everyone i'm the best. 
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#1015386 - 12/07/10 09:20 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: DAGtunes]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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"The days when musicians could actually read music?" ...I fail to see how that is a pre-requisite for composing/creating music? As a matter of fact, I've found that for some folks it is a hinderance. Some of the more "schooled" musicians I've known have trouble playing when they don't have a chart in front of them. They don't improvise well, or just have limited imaginations...not sure what it is.
I've had the same experience. I've sat down with Berkeley Music graduates that couldn't play a thing unless you gave them some sheet music. It was damn funny. They couldn't even jam to a C Am F G progression.
And Irving Berlin never learned to read music. I believe I read he composed all his songs (like White Christmas) using only the black keys on the piano, because the white keys just confused him.
All I'm saying is, somebody who devotes their life to making music, you'd think they'd learn some of the fundamentals. There's too much "music" out there made by people who can't play an instrument.
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#1015388 - 12/07/10 09:21 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: virtualan]
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Herr Doktor
Planeteer
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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what are we talking about now?
Whatever you want to talk about. Pull up a chair. Are you making music these days?
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#1015390 - 12/07/10 09:27 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: mike gouthro]
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Herr Doktor
Planeteer
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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use of sophisticated intro and mid sections that amazingly resolve back; complex jazz voicings that still carry an infectious hooky melody; sophisticated word play...
That's what I'm talking about. I dig the big band arrangements from the late thirties and forties, where the orchestra would play the entire song through once, before the singer even came in. I resent that today's commercial intros are limited to 15 seconds or less. Hell, even in the early seventies Steely Dan had a hit with an intro of a minute and a half on "Do It Again".
I love Western Swing guitar chords. The voicings are so incredible. Watching one of those old dudes play "San Antonio Rose", you'd never realize how many different ways there are to play an "A" chord.
And "sophisticated word play"? How about those lyrics to "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" or "My Funny Valentine"? Today's listeners are force fed drivel.
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#1015417 - 12/08/10 12:39 AM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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mike gouthro
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Registered: 04/20/99
Posts: 5027
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
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If the Gershwins, Porter, Berlin, Rogers/Hart, Arlen, Mercer were in a song circle with, McCartney, Joel, Elton, Mercury, Simon, Benny/Bjorn - I wonder what give and take might occur?
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#1015526 - 12/08/10 04:27 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: mike gouthro]
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Herr Doktor
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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You mean a bunch of songwriters sitting in a circle, taking turns performing their songs? They do that quite often in Nashville, but usually with four songwriters with guitars. There's seldom room for a piano.
Which brings to mind another problem with today's songwriting professionals. At least in Nashville, if the songwriter doesn't write on guitar, he is severely handicapped. There's so much less opportunity for co-writing and all the schmoozing that is necessary. So in Nashville, there's probably 100 guitar-playing songwriters for every piano-playing songwriter, and just forget writing on any other instrument.
And the songwriting is limited by the restrictions of guitar. If you write on guitar, you use the same old guitar chords and guitar rhythms. Piano opens up so many more harmonic and rhythmic possibilities. It's not a coincidence that those classy, harmonically-advanced songs by Porter, Carmichael, Rodgers, et al, were written on a piano. And even most of my absolute favorite Beatles songs were the ones they wrote on piano.
I've been to many songwriters-in-the-round performances here. Four writers taking turns singing and strumming their originals. A couple of the other writers might join in with a little harmony or a few lead licks. I don't enjoy that scene, so I don't go any more. The most valuable thing to get out of it is to hear a hit song in it's bare bones, performed by the songwriter exactly as he wrote it. You can learn from that.
Sometimes the song sounds weak and unprofessional because the songwriter can't sing or play his own damn song. You wonder how he wrote it, and how he got it across to be able to sell it. Other times, the songwriter's version is so much better than the famous hit version that you just want to scream at the artist who "didn't get it" and screwed up in his interpretation. Nashville is full of songwriters who are pissed off at how their song was recorded -- speeded up, arranged with the wrong instruments, sung in the wrong style, delivered without nuance or subtlety. It can be like handing off your little girl to somebody who turns her into a crack whore.
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#1015567 - 12/08/10 07:43 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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DAGtunes
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Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 7590
Loc: San Clemente, CA
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The thread that won't die, eh?!?
Regarding Piano, I've always considered it the "ultimate" instrument of all.
Biggest usable range of notes, laid out in a very logical way, and allowing one to see/hear all components of a composition at the same time. (If you've got enough hands! Gershwin actually did some 4-hand compositions for Player Piano Rolls that are quite amazing!)
It worked for Beethoven, Mozart, et al...
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#1015581 - 12/08/10 08:12 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: Herr Doktor]
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DAGtunes
Planeteer
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 7590
Loc: San Clemente, CA
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...Sometimes the song sounds weak and unprofessional because the songwriter can't sing or play his own damn song. You wonder how he wrote it, and how he got it across to be able to sell it...
Aha! The crux of the issue. Is it possible that some folks...perhaps even here on this forum...didn't "get it across" because they couldn't let go of the song enough to have someone better suited perform it?
IOW, believe it or not, some "songwriters" hire musicians/singers just for the purpose of recording demos that they can use to sell the song. This is one of the common traps of the songwriter/"all-in-one" home recordist. Very few have the skill set to be great at everything. When hard pressed to perform the song themselves, it doesn't surprise me at all that they cannot do it effectively.
Their true skill set is in arrangment, and composition. (Otherwise known as creativity and imagination.) You don't have to be a great singer to write great lyrics, nor do you have to be a virtuoso musician to compose a great melody. A great melody can simply be conceived/conveyed through notes on the staff.
...Nashville is full of songwriters who are pissed off at how their song was recorded -- speeded up, arranged with the wrong instruments, sung in the wrong style, delivered without nuance or subtlety. It can be like handing off your little girl to somebody who turns her into a crack whore...
I'm reminded of the movie "That Thing You Do," where the band is dying on stage playing these moody love songs written by the guitarist, until their new drummer who is nervous at his first gig, speeds up one of the songs (the title of the movie) by playing it "too fast." And it becomes a huge hit.
Once you sell a song, "the industry" is going to give it the "treatment" they think will yield the biggest buck. Are they always "right?" Well...if it sells a lot of units (their goal...), then they have succeeded, which is "right enough" for them!
The "record business" is a business, after all. It's not neccessarily about "art."
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#1016056 - 12/10/10 08:19 PM
Re: Of all the talents it takes to make home recordings, what are you worst at?
[Re: DAGtunes]
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Herr Doktor
Planeteer
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 6061
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believe it or not, some "songwriters" hire musicians/singers just for the purpose of recording demos that they can use to sell the song.
There are dozens (maybe hundreds?) of musicians in this town making a decent living from doing demos. And thousands earning part-time money at it here. Twenty years ago I was one of them. I quit because the songs I was given to work with were consistently awful and the people paying me were so unprofessional. You wouldn't believe some of the laughable "songs" people handed me, where the writer didn't have a clue about such things as song structure or the singability of lyrics.
The (songwriter's) true skill set is in arrangment, and composition.
Naturally a songwriter's true skill should be songwriting (composition). But I disagree about them usually being good at arranging. That is quite a different skill and you can't learn it from writing songs. You learn it by working with musicians and by hearing what clashes and what sounds boring. Most songwriters can't arrange their way out of a paper bag.
Once you sell a song, "the industry" is going to give it the "treatment" they think will yield the biggest buck.
Definitely. And if they succeed at making lots of money, the songwriter will happily accept his share. But many great songs get ground into spam by the "industry". There are a lot of major musical decisions made by non-musicians. And the factory-style output of Nashville -- using the same "A-Team" of musicians on ninety percent of the major label recordings -- causes a great loss in originality and uniqueness. How many times have you heard a country song and thought, "Gee, the same old shit with a different title." And that's what the "industry" wants. They want more of what was a hit last month, not something daringly different.
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