#1166494 - 10/17/12 10:50 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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and from page 1133 of the same manual...
"If you assign the following CC#s to the KARMA
CONTROLS sliders and switches, the specified CC#
will be transmitted when you operate the KRONOS,
and the KRONOS itself will be controlled
simultaneously. When these messages are received, the
result will be the same as if you operated the KRONOS
itself."
This may be your solution, no?
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#1166498 - 10/17/12 11:10 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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moontan
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Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 31836
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and from page 1133 of the same manual...
and that's just the first chapter...
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#1166500 - 10/17/12 11:18 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: moontan]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
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Loc: Twangville, TN
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I've never delved into Karma...since its examples are dynamically created musical patterns, which don't interest me. Is there something in there that says one can write Karma modules to include sysex...and then trigger said sysex with incoming CC? If so, certainly a Unique approach.
That's what has to happen...because effectively, both sender and receiver ate hardwired. Voce transmits fixed CC for each drawbar...and the cx3 engine does not respond to CC at all, according to the midi implementation chart a few pages earlier. Instead, it uses the sysex generated by the front panel sliders to move drawbars.
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#1168898 - 10/26/12 10:16 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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Man! that Kronos must be a pretty shit bit of gear if it can't re-map a few midi cc's eh?
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#1168900 - 10/26/12 10:26 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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Popmann
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I suppose one could look at it that way...if one all sees glasses as 1/100th empty. 
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#1168907 - 10/26/12 10:35 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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Well I'm an engineer and I like Midi stuff and I do know that my Proteus 2000, AKAI 2000 and even my Yamaha SY85 could have done what you are looking to do.
Times move on I guess. Old 'live' midi ways die out.
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#1168919 - 10/26/12 11:11 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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Popmann
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Except none of the above modelled a drawbar organ. So, not really. You can map CCs...just certain functions in the 9 distinct engines don't USE CC. Unfortunately, the drawbars of the organ engine are one. But, I would completely agree that's shitty choice/design. I mean, I can alter rotors of the Leslie and drive levels via CC? But, not the...DRAWBARS...of the drawbar organ.
It would be like you needing to do patch saving and restoring with a CC. That the only thing those old units used Sysex for, right? It's not a matter of remapping CCs. Its a matter of it doesn't USE CC for the function. The rig is a box that translates CC into sysex hex.
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#1168922 - 10/26/12 11:25 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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Except none of the above modelled a drawbar organ...
I agree but one could model their own? It's just a bunch of CC's jingz!
I don't understand where you seem to be getting tied up in the sysex stuff? The sysex implementation of the kronos seems very limited IMO. Can you explain what CC you want translated to a sysex command? I'm sure I could help you and custom build you a box. Or you could send me that box you bought and I could fit a $0.45 battery clip in it for you to overcome the power issue. I'm here to help!
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#1168924 - 10/26/12 11:34 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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virtualan
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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Was the B3 a drawbar organ?
What was?
I don't know these things
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#1168945 - 10/27/12 01:06 AM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
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Yes, a Hammond is a drawbar organ.
To duplicate it digitally, you need to use modelling tech...ie-not samples, not FM synthesis, or ADSR synth...it's a dedicated however many hundreds of constantly "spinning" tone wheels...
The Kronos has the drawbar organ model (dedicated engine)...One of its nine synth engines.
That engine uses sysex to address the virtual drawbars. It's sliders are mapped to said sysex-9 sliders=9 drawbars. But, I have an old set of MIDI drawbars...which only output fixed CC messages.
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#1168948 - 10/27/12 01:18 AM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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virtualan
Planeteer
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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can you point me to the tech manual where the engine uses sysex to address the virtual drawbars? I'm here to help
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#1168978 - 10/27/12 02:49 AM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Well, pg 244 of the Parameter Guide (not operation guide) describes how the cx3 engine does not respond to the global controller mapping system (that they call AMS)...and dig ragtime and describes the proprietary "tone adjust parameters" and their mapping to the control surface to the left of the screen.
And here's a thread where the Korg Product Specialist explains that they're only controllable via sysex (RichF)
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=59237&highlight=drawbar+sysex
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#1169030 - 10/27/12 08:30 AM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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virtualan
Planeteer
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 14958
Loc: Sauchie, Scotland, UK
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Ahhh! I now truly feel your pain!
Bummer for sure!
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#1169079 - 10/27/12 04:36 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: virtualan]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Yeah, it's a frustrating oversight in design, IMO. But, in their defense, there have only ever been two companies who made midi drawbar controllers. And I don't think either has been on the market in some years.
Most organists would rather have a dedicated board with waterfall keys and the drawbars novel the board like a real Hammond. I would to, I suppose if I were going to be touring. I have a Hammond C3--what I use for final recordings. I just would like to be able to use my drawbar unit while making demos, which I've been doing all inside the Kronos.
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#1169084 - 10/27/12 05:09 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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bear
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Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6538
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Can you show me a hex dump of a typical sysex input required by the cx3 engine and what CC types and values are output by the drawbar unit?
So I can see what kind of translation would be required.
If I built a little unit that would do it, how much would it be worth? Do you think other users might be interested to where I could sell several of them?
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#1169088 - 10/27/12 05:48 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: bear]
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Popmann
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No idea what you mean "hex dump". If you mean record the sysex that it needs...yes, I could do that.
Based on conversations on the Kronos forums, I don't think most care. Someone there built his own. He said it cost him something like $50 in parts...days in assembly and programming. Memory serves it wasnt terribly small, either. Which is why I bought the EPP from midi solutions $150. Simple GUI app to program the FPGA. Turns out, the Voce drawbars don't output the power compatible, so I'd also have to buy the power adapter box, which means another box and another $50. So, right now, it takes $200 of midiSolutions hardware for the Voce...and $100-150 for the Native Instruments drawbar unit, which not being on the list, I assume outputs proper power over midi.
Some care for sequencing...they want to I guess be able to edit drawbars in the DAW...but, at that point, you can use the DAW's real time midi filters to do the work. They just don't know what they're doing.
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#1169090 - 10/27/12 06:01 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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But, to judge value/price. The Event Processor is about $120...the EPPro is $150.
It was worth that to me. And the difference in the two are number of translations it will do. Since I didn't really know how the logic would end up, I bought the bigger one to be safe. Ironically, not safe enough with the power thing.
But, frankly "Korg people" mostly are synth folks. That what Korg has done well for many years. Until the Kronos, they were always dead last in realistic emulation of about anything...except their standalone Bx/cx3 organs, which is the engine they put in it.
The other folks talking about it are concerned with DAW manipulation...so, would need bi directional translation...and could do that with any software sequencer worth a piss. If they knew what they were doing.
Pretty sure the guy who built his own FPGA unit did post the sysex documentation. Will look...
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#1169102 - 10/27/12 06:19 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Here's one that is programmable...as long as the unit uses CCs!
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DrawbarDB1/
...which goes back to Korg using sysex.
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#1169256 - 10/28/12 03:59 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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bear
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Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6538
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Alright - looking at the above info on the SYSEX required, it is really pretty easy.
Building a little microprocessor circuit that would do the translation is a piece of cake...
I would picture something that holds a translation table, allowing it to convert any set of CC messages to any set of SYSEX messages. It could probably be setup to allow these to be programmable for different applications by hooking up to USB or something, then after setting it up, use it by just hooking up to midi in/out. For known interfaces, little setup files could be provided, so the user just has to select the file and say use this one.
Probably should really have midi merge also - adds to the complexity a little but not too bad.
Midi power is LITTLE dicey in that it is (as you found out) not quite standardized for all equipment... but it would be easy enough to provide for a small battery if the midi power was not working.
Building a full drawbar unit is quite a bit more difficult, mostly from the mechanical aspects - it is pretty easy to build a little box with a couple of DIN connectors... adding the sliders etc in a robust way makes it much more complicated.
As a user - would you require the form factor of real drawbars, or would normal fader type linear pots be good enough?
In any case, design and prototyping costs get up into the couple of thousand dollars pretty fast.
In general setup costs for fabbing a printed circuit board run between $500 and $1000 depending on it's size and how many layers etc.
Actual part cost per unit (for just the translator) is probably less than $20 - a microprocessor, a couple of DIN connectors, an opto-isolator, a voltage regulator, a battery holder, and few misc other parts, a little case of some sort...
But to recoup the cost of the design time and the initial cost of fab of a printed circuit board, at least 20 or 30 would have to be sold in the $100 range to even break even.
I'm sure you do realize you could do what you need with a little laptop, say using midiox or something...but I understand, you are trying to keep a PC out of this equation..
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#1169282 - 10/28/12 05:15 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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At $100 to break even. Seem like just reselling MidiSolutions boxes with on demand programming would be the more viable business slant, no?
If we assume stores have 30-40% markup...
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#1169302 - 10/28/12 06:36 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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bear
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Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6538
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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At $100 to break even. Seem like just reselling MidiSolutions boxes with on demand programming would be the more viable business slant, no?
If we assume stores have 30-40% markup...
Yeah...but that doesn't really interest me - it is right in my zone of talent to design a little hardware box and write some processor code.. I was just blue sky thinking about what it would take
I would basically be building the equivalent of the MidiSolutions box in my own way (and under my total control on how it would work)
It does seem like an interesting little niche market that MidiSolutions has a pretty unique corner on.
If you had a hardware box with the connectors and midi port hardware, and a microprocessor, it would be totally possible to write different firmware loads that did a whole variety of functions - Midi merge, midi filter, midi translate, etc etc, any way you could imagine manipulating midi... which is what I am sure MidiSolutions does. I bet the internals of all their little boxes are the same or at least very similar.
And I bet their cost is similar to what I said above
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#1169316 - 10/28/12 07:36 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: bear]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Yep. And GUI software to program it over MIDI.
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#1169371 - 10/28/12 09:52 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6538
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Since you pretty much need a PC to have a GUI to set things up, I would probably do that with a separate USB port.
Then after is was set up it could be standalone to do whatever function it was setup to do.
Could use the USB as a midi monitor port also.. sniff whatever activity was going back and forth on the midi
Again I am just idly poking at it in my head, thinking about how it could be done
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#1169399 - 10/28/12 11:44 PM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: bear]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33082
Loc: Twangville, TN
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That's cool. I like idly poking at things in my head.
If you're just exercising the noggin...also keep in mind that the Organ modelling engine recognizes the what 8 or 9 stops (increments) of each drawbar...where the controllers output continuous 0-127 values, with physical detents where the stops are. I hadn't gotten into the programming yet, but I figured that would be a potential wrinkle. Like you'd want to measure the value of each increment...and then do some kind of "if range equals 10-30 output hex for DB stop2". You wouldn't want just the specific value, because...I sort of assume it's an analog pot in there that might stray a value or two...I don't know...thinking aloud. Sometimes the puzzle solving is of more self value than the function.
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#1169405 - 10/29/12 12:02 AM
Re: MIDI Guys: Help Me Out Please
[Re: Popmann]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6538
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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That was brought up in the link you provided above... the guy who was making his interface just did it with a shift operation (equivalent to a divide and throw away any remainder)
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