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#1183300 - 12/15/12 09:06 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Good!!! I plan on you being the Planet Expert on this program in no less than a month. I expect no less, I will accept no excuses. Make it so!
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#1183305 - 12/15/12 09:52 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Doughboy]
SteveW Offline
Steve White
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 17989
Loc: Rhode Island
Well ok

But what about Christmas and New Years and like vacation and TV and Pot and video games? Oh you said a month ha! I was nervous there for a minute and thought you said a week. \:\)

I shall make it so sir! Now beam me outta here it's bedtime and I'm taking the manual in with me for a little not so light reading. \:D
_________________________
Steve

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#1183316 - 12/15/12 11:52 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
 Quote:
I'm looking at it this way. This is the closest I can come to getting my songs out in a style I want with great Musicians you don't have to pay.


Really don't know what to say....except that I felt like that deserved a repost.

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#1183324 - 12/16/12 12:48 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
I agree....Steve nailed it with that sentence, didn't he?
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#1183334 - 12/16/12 04:21 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
Delso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/27/99
Posts: 16175
Loc: the beautiful Blackmore Vale
SteveW, glad to hear about the machine AND the DVDs!

C Jo Go, WOW!!!!!!!! Tell us more.

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#1183349 - 12/16/12 06:51 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Delso]
Duckhead Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 13347
Loc: n Load!
 Quote:
had a problem with one of the DVD's, scratches and smudges.

I would stiil send it back and have it replaced. Thats not acceptable.
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#1183366 - 12/16/12 08:27 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
 Quote:
I'm looking at it this way. This is the closest I can come to getting my songs out in a style I want with great Musicians you don't have to pay.


Really don't know what to say....except that I felt like that deserved a repost.

Popmann.... What exactly is ur problem with this? Before you answer(if u answer) let's make the distinction between the evil selfish wealthy musicians that could afford to hire players but don't, and the average schlub with a musical notion that can't afford to hire players.,.... Dare I place Steve in the latter. And were that true dare I paraphrase his statement from "I don't have to" to "I can't afford to"...
... Ok... Go ahead and explain what your issue is with that statement.
Cuz what I take out of that statement is that a business has been built around hiring musicians to play generically, no doubt for a fee, and employs software engineers and help desk people.... The niche market is the garden variety musician that formerly had no Avenue of Muse development beyond their own instrumental capability can now create a much closer image of their mind's eye, so to speak, without that out-of-reach piano player or bass player or. That somebody could essentially" create " a piece of music by assembly with no individual talent doesn't even rate worthy of criticism to me.... If it did then to be consistent you'd have to criticize the non musician player of the radio cuz" pfft.... They didn't write what they're listening to " (I say again..... For effect...." pfft"v)
Ok... Sorry to blather.... U now....
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#1183375 - 12/16/12 09:07 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: JazAddict]
SteveW Offline
Steve White
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 17989
Loc: Rhode Island
Yeah Duck

I'm gonna email them and tell them I want a replacement for that DVD.

Here's all of that quote Pop put up.

It's a wicked program man! I'm looking at it this way. This is the closest I can come to getting my songs out in a style I want with great Musicians you don't have to pay. Well, I did pay, I bought the program.

I like to know the whole story behind a quote not just a piece of it.

I see it as no different than writing some scores for an Orchestra and paying them to play. Or any musician for that matter. It's a musical tool.
_________________________
Steve

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#1183404 - 12/16/12 11:16 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
 Quote:
I see it as no different than writing some scores for an Orchestra and paying them to play. Or any musician for that matter.


I'm sorry if I offend. I see your point of view. You compose something with a mouse and you hear something similar play back. Therefore it's similar.

...from my point of view, it's not close to similar because what you get back in terms of content doesn't RESEMBLE what you would get back from real players...and doesn't help those players put food on the table or give the next generation of players any kind of hope of dedicating their lives to such pursuits.

May you be prolific with your new tool.

Sorry, I should never comment about BIAB again.

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#1183409 - 12/16/12 11:33 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Delso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/27/99
Posts: 16175
Loc: the beautiful Blackmore Vale
That's a fair point, Pop, but Steve could never afford to hire players - hell, who could? So he hasn't actually deprived anyone of a fee, but he has given his vision some realisation.

If he'd composed a great synth instrumental, using a DAW and a sequencer, would you still have an objection?

Just asking.


Edited by Delso (12/16/12 11:34 AM)

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#1183420 - 12/16/12 12:58 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Delso]
SteveW Offline
Steve White
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 17989
Loc: Rhode Island
Pop

Maybe in your head that's how you see it and that's fine but my mouse does not write music just so ya know. \:D

What I get back is exactly what I want it would be no different from a real player and if I didn't like it I could change without having someone play a different part.

I'm not trying to help Musicians put food on their table, let em do it the same way I do which is any way I can. These were not robots that played all the real instruments, they were REAL Musicians that got paid REAL money to play what they were told to play.

All this program does it makes it easier for me to get what I want without the hassle and extra cost of studio musicians. I have over 200 songs and counting so if I paid 7 or 8 Musicians for my songs at what 70.00 an hour? It just won't happen.

I guess the point is be offended if you like, just don't expect me to care that you are. \:\)
_________________________
Steve

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#1183433 - 12/16/12 01:57 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
Fair points all.

I'm a curmudgeon on this due to my history with the app and it's use...directly denied ME work...AND the illusion that it would actually replace me caused those songwriters to vanish into obscurity after my arrangements got them a development deal.

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#1183481 - 12/16/12 04:00 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Pops.....I think you are arguing a totally different point. Maybe I didn't understand that earlier. Quite frankly, when I first found out about this program, it saddened me, to think that the end of actual playing instruments is nearing it's end. It is disturbing to me.

For now, I don't believe the average non musical schmuck will get to much use out of this program, and they will continue to need studio musicians. But five or ten years from now, it will just be hit a button and have a beautiful arrangement of real instruments. Complete with lyrics and singing and a copyright that is sent straight to D.C. without any extra effort.

But for now....I'm not gonna hire studio musicians anyway. I have in the past. But those days are gone.

....and....just for the heck of it...."SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAP SLAP SLAP SLAP"
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#1183483 - 12/16/12 04:06 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Doughboy]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Also....if there is some John Lennon in waiting that has no instrument abilities....and he can take a program like this and write a phenomenal tune. I'd buy it and I'd encourage him to continue. Even thou he can't play an instrument.
_________________________
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#1183486 - 12/16/12 04:11 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
 Quote:
.AND the illusion that it would actually replace me caused those songwriters to vanish into obscurity after my arrangements got them a development deal.

Or....
...they vanished into obscurity account the inability to distinguish between a project that had earning potential with a distinct creative vibe and a cheap (by comparison) generic tool made for accountants and firemen and Lymes-disease recoveries and Almost-retired-solutions-architects to take their inner musician a few steps closer to Yawping from the rooftops (thanks Walt)....me thinks.

Perfectly reasonable to spew dislike.....just don't be surprised if people get snotty when you (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) accidentally get some on them. \:p

...anybody else wanna get a lick in while we have Pop pinned under dogpile????


....Anybody????



Edited by JazAddict (12/16/12 04:14 PM)
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#1183489 - 12/16/12 04:26 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Doughboy]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
You can test that, actually. Give it the chords to something you like. See what it comes up with. So, that what you can get it to do KNOWING what's appropriate for the song already. Put in Stairway to Heaven quicklike.

But, here's my bet for you...you willing to hold your breath until that happens? The great songwriter who can't play and instrument thing...

I changed my mind--I'm going to buy this, because if I do, someone might come to my door and give me a million dollars. It's about as likely to happen. But, it might...and that would indeed be cool. Problem solved, I'm buying it!

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#1183491 - 12/16/12 04:45 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
Yeah, Jaz. Demos. I need to remind myself on a regular basis what most folks here are doing "having fun with music". If it helps you get your songs demo'd like you want them, it's worth all the money and time you sink into it.
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#1183514 - 12/16/12 05:57 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
jimmyrock Offline
Department Head of Redundancy Department Head
Planeteer


Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 5722
Loc: America's File Cabinet
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
Yeah, Jaz. Demos. I need to remind myself on a regular basis what most folks here are doing "having fun with music". If it helps you get your songs demo'd like you want them, it's worth all the money and time you sink into it.


and yet consistently, to me, the most demonstratively commercial sounding efforts here at VSP come from none other than Doughboy..., why shouldnt it be just fun?


Edited by jimmyrock (12/16/12 06:04 PM)
Edit Reason: del stupid personal comment

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#1183519 - 12/16/12 06:07 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: jimmyrock]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
WOW.....thanks jimmy!!!

Pops....u have hit on another thing though. Musical hooks....like Stairway to Heaven....or any song that is coming back to a repetitive hook, which I like to do. Or any definate line, just isn't going to work in BIAB.

I actually would bet, although I sure as hell ain't gonna waste the time, that someone could do a rather good original version of Stairway to Heaven. You can play the same chords....you're not going to get that same riff....soooo, I make that a piano or a sax or some totally different instrument than a guitar....maybe a violin.

Personally, if someone goes with this idea, I'm not gonna listen to it.....I blow chunks at remakes.

DAMN....THANKS JIMMY!!!! U DA MAN!
_________________________
----------------------------------
For a an updated list of players giving blowjobs this week call 1800DETROITLIONSSUCKINGDICKS

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#1183521 - 12/16/12 06:14 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Delso]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician
Planeteer


Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 23543
Loc: carmel valley,ca
 Originally Posted By: Delso


C Jo Go, WOW!!!!!!!! Tell us more.


Is this in reference to Pete Kleinow ??
_________________________
Far Gone .. ;-)

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#1183522 - 12/16/12 06:16 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: jimmyrock]
SteveW Offline
Steve White
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 17989
Loc: Rhode Island
I don't think it matters why we use what we use. I've been looking for a cheap alternative for a long time now. I just can't keep asking my friends to play on things without pay. I can't afford it and I probably won't ever be able to. If I got a hit and made money you can believe I'd be using studio musicians because then I could afford it. \:\) But also believe I'd be a real stickler and know exactly what I wanted them to play. (same as BIAB )

Thing is I'm not a wanna be musician and I've played many instruments in my day including Trumpet, French Horn, Trombone, Guitar, Drums, Bass and some keys, plus a few more I can't remember now. I know what I want but I just 1. Can't play anymore and 2. Even if I could play again I could never afford to buy or store all of those instruments. When I write I either use keys or guitar so it's not like I'm using this or any program to write for me.

This won't replace my writing and I'll still have fun playing whenever my body let's me but shit man I need something to do in between all that. \:\)
_________________________
Steve

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#1183558 - 12/16/12 09:16 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: SteveW]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
Nice compliment to Doughy... Agreed.
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
http://www.bobminer.net Da Bears
Bob Miner

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#1183565 - 12/16/12 09:26 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
You can test that, actually. Give it the chords to something you like. See what it comes up with

I'm not particularly interested in its melody making ability.... Rather, I just used it to generate chords to my melody.... It's in a new thread.

Did pretty well. I like it...

It'd be funny if you did buy it & then landed a gig that asked for it. \:\)
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
http://www.bobminer.net Da Bears
Bob Miner

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#1183688 - 12/17/12 09:32 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: C Jo Go]
Delso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/27/99
Posts: 16175
Loc: the beautiful Blackmore Vale
 Originally Posted By: C Jo Go*Crystal Studios*
 Originally Posted By: Delso


C Jo Go, WOW!!!!!!!! Tell us more.


Is this in reference to Pete Kleinow ??


Yep.

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#1183716 - 12/17/12 10:52 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: JazAddict]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
 Originally Posted By: JazAddict
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
You can test that, actually. Give it the chords to something you like. See what it comes up with

I'm not particularly interested in its melody making ability.... Rather, I just used it to generate chords to my melody.... It's in a new thread.



For the record, that actually wasn't my point. Put in the chord to Stairway and whatever "style" configuration you want. Let me know how much it sounds like Stairway. Or any record you like. I assume you can sing Stairway...Autotune Hairband Rock Preset and editing and all. That wasn't my point--my point was just that it won't sound much of anything like the guitar/bass/drums/organ on Stairway. You know--the music it's responsible for.

...which was the point...if someone were a hidden (insert your favorite songwriter here)...they would stay hidden because arrangements actually, IMO, ARE 90% music. The song is relatively meaningless. It's a foundation music is made on. So, point is, Stairway to Heaven, with it's chords and melody...and whatever generic arrangement BIAB will give it, doesn't resemble the music that is loved. No one will like it. Certainly the people who WOULD like Stairway wouldn't like it.

Just so that my point is clear.

In an effort to spin this into a positive, BIAB is a FUN toy. It's fun as hell to plug in varying styles and chords (particularly weird non matching combos) and see what it comes up with. My favorite was Yesterday with a reggae bassline and jazz fusion piano...and maybe rock or funk drums. Of course, it sounded nothing LIKE the Yesterday that's known and loved...but, it made one hell of an interesting track to jam some guitar over.

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#1183730 - 12/17/12 12:11 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
I don't think the program is designed for anyone who wants to do cover material. It's just not the end all of Karioke machines. But....forget about Stairway. That song is too polished and structured or whatever you call it. Let's talk about a remake of some other old worn out tune....maybe from the 60's....Could you remake that into a modern sounding song with BIAB.....Yep.

Another point on Stairway to Heaven.....and maybe you were thinking about his already, and I was only thinking about that intro riff......but for me, it would just be way out the box to attempt a song that basically has three or four changes....that are basically different songs in one.

But....it's not a toy anymore than Superior Drummer is a toy. If you think that's a toy too....then ...... I'm okay with it. (But you would be wrong in both cases)
_________________________
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#1183761 - 12/17/12 01:51 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Doughboy]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
Ha ha ha! A toy... Of course it is... Ur classic -60s Beatles ballad with the reggae bass, jazz fusion piano and rock drums test that sounded like shit is the acid test... Ha ha ha... Jeez.
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
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Bob Miner

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#1183797 - 12/17/12 02:40 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: JazAddict]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
Not the acid test. The way I had fun with it. You can find your own way to have fun.
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#1183908 - 12/17/12 06:07 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
LOOOOOK MISSSTER.....NOBODY'S HAVIN' ANY FUN....YOU GOT THAT. THIS IS MUSIC. IF YOUR HAVIN' FUN, THEN YOU'RE JUST NOT SERIOUS ABOUT IT....IT HAS TO HUUUUUUUURT!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
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#1183910 - 12/17/12 06:17 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Doughboy]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
Yah...










... Mister  
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
http://www.bobminer.net Da Bears
Bob Miner

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#1184020 - 12/18/12 05:34 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: JazAddict]
Delso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/27/99
Posts: 16175
Loc: the beautiful Blackmore Vale
"I don't think the program is designed for anyone who wants to do cover material." There is an aftermarket, e.g."Notes" Norton's stuff, which sells BIAB-compatible downloads of chord progressions, which conform exactly to the original, combined with the most appropriate Style. I would have thought you could add your own lead instrument and vocals and get away with it.

However, it's just laziness - any of us (except insert Planeteer's name here) is sufficiently musical to be able to tailor an accurate BIAB accompaniment - all you need is time and the manual!

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#1184110 - 12/18/12 11:05 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Delso]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
I think you're both right....if you're gonna judge by the ability to precisely copy a cover, you're gonna be disappointed. But if you bring the "majority instrument/motive" to the production and carefully craft the "rest of the band", you can get acceptably close.

Using Stairway to Heaven (Popman-alternative-acid-test-to-the-industry-standard-acidtest-Yesterday-ballad-reggae-jazzfusion ) as an example. If YOU play the guitar and sing, you can find suitable rock drums, bass, keys, Distored rhythm guitar to fill the rest. Again...it'd be interesting to see if you could replicate that shout-section with beat-1-eighth notes ("and as we wind on down the road...").

So thats when you incorporate REALBAND. Its a linear version of the BIAB generated file on individual tracks. You can select a section of bars (say 13-24) of one track and regenerate JUST that instrument over that section using the BIAB engine....hell, you can change the style of JUST that track over that section...to get a more rowdy bass line er sumpin for instance.

When you're done you can place any or all of your songs into a jukebox for gigging....use a footcontroller....have looped solo sections that you pedal in & out of.....works rather slickly
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
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Bob Miner

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#1184132 - 12/18/12 11:52 AM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Delso]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician
Planeteer


Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 23543
Loc: carmel valley,ca
 Originally Posted By: Delso
 Originally Posted By: C Jo Go*Crystal Studios*
 Originally Posted By: Delso


C Jo Go, WOW!!!!!!!! Tell us more.


Is this in reference to Pete Kleinow ??


Yep.


I met Pete through my neighbor -- Sneaky would come down to help my Academy Award winning ::Wah Ming Chang :: ( Star Trek~ SciFi specialists ) edit frame by frame stop action films.

Sneaky worked on the first Gumby & as well as 200 LP's and tours. The last I saw him was with Garth Hudson of the Band.

Different to walk in your neighbors home --- see the first Disney cartoons characters sitting around >> maybe a Tricorder or Phaser > a mask from Outer Limits/Planet of the Apes / the Time Machine on the shelf...etc.. WAH CHANG


Pete and Wah were very modest -- did not like the lime-light at all.... Sneaky was really into animation , and Wah was the master > starting back with King Kong.

.


Edited by C Jo Go*Crystal Studios* (12/18/12 04:39 PM)
_________________________
Far Gone .. ;-)

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#1184168 - 12/18/12 01:41 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: C Jo Go]
Popmann Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
You have utterly missed the point of the "cover".

You WROTE stairway to heaven...whatever it gives you is what it would give Plant/Page. Which is...not intriguing. Why would you assume with YOUR song it would be intriguing. Insert whatever song you think is great. It's going to do as well for YOUR great song as it did for the one you KNOW is great, because you have a recording of great MUSIC that came from it.

That was the point.

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#1184193 - 12/18/12 03:07 PM Re: Steve and anyone else.....regarding Band In A Box........ [Re: Popmann]
JazAddict Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 17191
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
Yes. I did miss that point. Matter of fact even after reading the point I don't get the point.
No biggie.. Just a toy anyway.
_________________________
Liberty is inversely proportional to government.
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