#1188634 - 01/04/13 06:35 PM
RBUS ADAT convertor
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Martin's post the other day about adding an ADAT output to his 2480 inspired me to look at some stuff...
After studying the ADAT interface ICs and looking at the 2480 schematic it occurred to me that building a RBUS to ADAT converter shouldn't be too difficult.
So I ordered some stuff and built a breadboard. So far I have the RBUS OUT to ADAT wired up and it seems to be working fine - I have the parts to breadboard up the ADAT OUT to RBUS IN and will probably do that over the weekend.
So - so far I have done this to satisfy my curiosity. I COULD go further and build a real printed circuit board, and build several of these if I wished (it is the kind of thing I do in my day job all the time - for the last 30 years or so...)
BUT to have a PCB fabbed and purchasing parts to do this is a pretty substantial investment - probably 1 to 2K$ or so.
I would do this IF I saw enough interest out there to sell enough to recoup this NRE
I see three ways to build this -
1 - is just provide RBUS OUT to ADAT IN so you can dump files to a PC or whatever
2 - is go ahead and provide the ADAT OUT to RBUS IN also so you can hook up to preamps or get wavs from the PC also. This would be roughly what a DIF-AT does... although I would not screw with a TDIF port.
3 - is do the IN and OUT and also provide the MIDI interface that is available on RBUS
These would add incremental cost - I could probably sell a RBUS OUT only for less than $75, a IN and OUT for $100 or so, and add MIDI for $150 or so.
Without MIDI I think I could build it into a little dongle that just plugs into the RBUS DB25 directly and has optical connectors. To add the MIDI connectors probably means putting it in a box with a cable to the RBUS port (cable adds cost also)
So any interest out there? Comments on the most useful configuration/cost trade off? As I said - before I would go through the process of really building this past just a breadboard, I would have to have pretty firm commitment to sell 20 or so.
Incidentally - to have an RBUS interface to try with this, I bought a SI-24 mixer and RPC-1 card off of EBAY. When I am done fooling around with this in a few weeks, I will probably put these up for sale - if anyone is interested put your dibs in now.
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#1188639 - 01/04/13 06:43 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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I need to research the whole RBUS thing before I can tell whether or not I can use this, but it sure would be nice to have if it works with a 1680. Seems to me I remember something about RBUS not working with a 1680.... Just tossing my thoughts out there, so you know there's some interest.
I think it's fantastic if you are willing to go beyond the tinkering stage, bear!
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#1188642 - 01/04/13 06:46 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: uptildawn]
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bear
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Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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No - the 1680/1880 do not have RBUS... only the 2400/2480 class machines - and of course other roland equipment - RPC-1 cards, VFIRE boxes, ADA7000, some of the synths etc.
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#1188649 - 01/04/13 06:51 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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bear
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Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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To test the RBUS to ADAT side I am running a wav file of a pure 1khz sine wave from one PC with RPC card (using Reaper) into another PC using a RME multiface ADAT (again using Reaper)
I am using VOXENDO SPAN to look at the FFT of the two sides to make sure the transfer is clean
Here is the FFT of the sending side (Reaper into RPC card on PC 1)
And here is the FFT of receiving side (RME ADAT into Reaper on PC 2)
Funny picture of my work area - PC on left is sending RBUS - PC on right is receiving ADAT. Breadboard is the orange perfboard in the middle, RBUS into the left, ADAT out the right.
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#1188654 - 01/04/13 07:08 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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dkfackler
Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 705
Loc: Coventry, OH, planet Thulcandr...
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I vote for Option 2. MIDI can be done another way.
Bear, I'm in awe!
DK
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#1188662 - 01/04/13 07:39 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: dkfackler]
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Frank Griffith
Planeteer/Artist # 300
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 12363
Loc: "All Be Quirky", NM
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Count me in, I doubt I would ever need or use it but it's one more VS thing I would just like to have, LOL. $100 to $150 is not going to break the bank.
Good luck.
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#1188695 - 01/04/13 09:15 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Frank Griffith]
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Mark Oakley
Planeteer
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 1186
Loc: Beaverton, Ontario
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Hi Bear:
Great work! Is the ADAT 20 bit, like the DIF-AT or 24 bit, like the DIF-AT24?
-thanks, Mark
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#1188705 - 01/04/13 09:31 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Mark Oakley]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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24 bit
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#1188722 - 01/04/13 10:08 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Waterman
Artist # 435
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 6817
Loc: Atlantic Beach, Florida
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I would be definitely interested in this.
Good work bear!
Pete
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#1188796 - 01/04/13 11:52 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Waterman]
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JazAddict
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Registered: 05/17/04
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Loc: The West Coast of Florida
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I gotta read this all again.... Slower
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#1188818 - 01/05/13 01:06 AM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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No - the 1680/1880 do not have RBUS... only the 2400/2480 class machines - and of course other roland equipment - RPC-1 cards, VFIRE boxes, ADA7000, some of the synths etc.
Figures........... that's kind of what I thought I remembered.
I still think it's great!
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#1188917 - 01/05/13 03:01 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: uptildawn]
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JazAddict
Planeteer
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 18011
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
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I like it with midi....always hated that the midi component of the RPC/delta rbus got bumped a fee windows driver iterations ago. Wondering what, if any difference there is between the RPC and the Delta Rbus?
I often find that my interest in this sorta thing has a maturity component.... I don't realize the wish/need exists until my understanding of the capability matures.
I'm gonna research ADAT Interface (my knowledge of it stops at sticking VCR tapes in an 8 track recorder)
Edited by JazAddict (01/05/13 03:03 PM)
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#1188922 - 01/05/13 03:17 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: JazAddict]
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JazAddict
Planeteer
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 18011
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
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So could this box go between the 2480 and the PC that has an ADAT PCI(e?) Interface?....and with mMIDI carry sync?
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#1188952 - 01/05/13 05:15 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: JazAddict]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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So could this box go between the 2480 and the PC that has an ADAT PCI(e?) Interface?....and with mMIDI carry sync?
Audio yes - 8 channels at 24 bit at 44.1 or 48k sample rate. ADAT carries it's own clock so no WORDCLOCK needed. It is possible to also support WORDCLOCK, but it would complicate it a lot.
The interface would need to support switching between RBUS and ADAT as clock source, and setup at each end would need to specify internal or external clock source.
Sync is a lot trickier - the RBUS end could supply a normal MIDI hardware interface which would provide a normal MIDI port on SOME devices (for example the RPC card or the VS2480 or the VM3100 supply a midi port in the drivers, but I do not think a ADA7000 does...).
This MIDI port could be hooked up to normal MIDI port on the other end with separate MIDI cables NOT through the optical cable.
ADAT devices use a special sync setup on a D15 connector. I am unsure how this relates to MIDI - it probably is similar, but I really do not know.
The DIF-AT box supplies this 15 pin sync connector with sync operations. The 2480 manual shows it controlling an ADAT machine through a setting, but this is not normal MIDI and no details are given...
But I do not think normal ADAT interfaces support using just normal MIDI over the optical interface. They only support their special 15 pin sync to control only ADAT devices.
It is much simpler to only support the AUDIO - if only for the fact that the MIDI connectors and support circuitry will require a lot of room and cost.
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#1188965 - 01/05/13 05:47 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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fngrstck1
Planeteer
Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 235
Loc: Cleveland
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If i bought two of these; then hooked up two 8 channel preamps with adat out; to each rbus; i could have 16 channels into the 2480? If so that would be great; mike
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#1188967 - 01/05/13 06:02 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: fngrstck1]
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JazAddict
Planeteer
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 18011
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
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But the 2480 let's u choose between the rbus port and the midi port for midi I/o from control msgs to sync.....so why would u need the extra midi port? Couldn't u leverage whatever bits in the rbus stream that are set aside for midi?
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#1188968 - 01/05/13 06:16 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: JazAddict]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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There are not bits in the "RBUS stream" for MIDI. The D25 connector has two pins, one for MIDI in and one for MIDI out. Other pins have the audio (4 INs with 2 channels and 4 outs with 2 channels and some pins for clocks etc.)
If you are hooking up say a 2480 to a RPC card with a RBUS cable, then these MIDI pins just carry through - the drivers on each side supply the MIDI data on each side to this pins (independent of what the audio pins are doing).
When you convert the RBUS to ADAT right at the RBUS connector then there are no more pins to carry this MIDI... all you can do is pin it out to a MIDI interface circuit. A MIDI interface circuit needs opto isolation and some driver stuff along with the DIN connectors.
(to be a little more correct and complicate things -- the ADAT interface chips actually DO supply a way to send MIDI over the optical interface along with the AUDIO data, but I do not think most ADAT interfaces in the PC allow access to this data, at least I have never seen one that does)
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#1188974 - 01/05/13 06:26 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: fngrstck1]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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If i bought two of these; then hooked up two 8 channel preamps with adat out; to each rbus; i could have 16 channels into the 2480? If so that would be great; mike
I have not finished bread boarding the ADAT OUT into RBUS IN yet - I need to order one more part, but as long as it works as expected, yes you could hook up 2 8 channel input devices to the two RBUS ports on the 2480.
HOWEVER - clocking becomes an issue - in any digital system only one device can be the clock master - there would have to be a way to clock sync the two devices. If they had word clock outs and ins on the two input devices I think it would work. You could specify one as clock master - it would supply clock to the 2480 through RBUS and slave the other through wordclock
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#1188976 - 01/05/13 06:29 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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JazAddict
Planeteer
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 18011
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
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Huh...cool to know. So what's the "dif"  between what ur building and a dif at24?.....besides we can actually get one from u?
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#1188981 - 01/05/13 06:37 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: JazAddict]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Huh...cool to know. So what's the "dif" between what ur building and a dif at24?.....besides we can actually get one from u?
DIF-AT supplies both TDIF AND ADAT interface. Mine wouldn't.
DIF-AT supplies ADAT sync port. Mine wouldn't.
DIF-AT is more expensive. DIF-AT is very hard to find these days
If it works out the way I picture it, my adapters would plug right into the RBUS connectors on the Roland device so no RBUS cable needed. Kind of a minimalist, cheaper DIF-AT for those who just want to move audio data around between RBUS and ADAT devices.
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#1189080 - 01/06/13 04:11 AM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Starliner
Planeteer
Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 3173
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
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Option 3 with midi at $150 sounds good. I'd go for that. I'm all for anything that extends the usefulness of the 2480... the more flexible, the better.
Starliner
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#1189151 - 01/06/13 04:53 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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dkfackler
Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 705
Loc: Coventry, OH, planet Thulcandr...
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Would this provide bi-directional RBUS audio?
DK
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#1189153 - 01/06/13 05:11 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: dkfackler]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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I just finished my breadboard - I now have it fully working with 8 channels in both directions - all kinks worked out where channel numbers properly match between RBUS and ADAT and audio stream polarity is correct.
I have the clock capable of being properly supplied with either the RBUS or ADAT through a jumper.
If I was to include the RBUS midi port, I need to breadboard a MIDI interface (pretty simple and well documented - just a buffer chip, an opto-isolator and some DIN connectors).
So far tested in both directions with the RBUS port on a RPC-1 card in one PC and a ADAT interface on a RME multiface in second PC.
I have another couple of devices with ADAT ports I need to try to make sure it is fully compatible
I have a SI-24 mixer coming in from EBAY to try it with for another RBUS device - I really need to test with a 2480, although the whole point of RBUS ports is that they are the same on different devices...
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#1189165 - 01/06/13 06:05 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Frank Griffith
Planeteer/Artist # 300
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 12363
Loc: "All Be Quirky", NM
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I'm still in the same place in ABQ with my 2480 if you need to test on one.
Altho, I have no ADAT devices here I do have a RPC-1 with RBUS in my PC connected to the VS.
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#1189390 - 01/07/13 09:20 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Frank Griffith]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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I just got in my SI-24 from ebay and will be testing with it later today to make sure the breadboard works with it's RBUS port also.
Also ordered some DIN connectors and a couple of opto-isolator ICs to add the MIDI capability to the breadboard. They should be here in a few days.
When I am ready to test with a 2480 I may take you up on that Frank. What are you doing this weekend?
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#1189450 - 01/08/13 03:13 AM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Hmmmm the SI-24 is a WEIRD beast... I have owned a couple of VM3100s in the past, and thought the SI-24 was just a better but similar unit. But it is absolutely not.
Basically it seems to be a 8 channel ANALOG<->RBUS adapter, and a separate totally bizarre MIDI control surface....
The controls and faders do NOTHING to the audio passing through, just send off the wall midi messages...
But the real kicker - the RBUS port does not supply power like the RPC card and the VS2480 does!!!
I have an SI-24 owners manual I downloaded from Roland- it DOES NOT mention this... I googled around and found a different owners manual with a slightly later version number and it adds this paragraph
The R-BUS connector of SI-24 can not be used by connecting with
the equipment requires power supply via R-BUS such as DIF-AT,
VE-7000 and so on.
I can make my ADAT adapter board work just fine, but I need to supply 5 Volts from a separate power supply.
So the bottom line is that if my adapter is going to work with these devices, I need to supply a way to feed external power in also..... other than that the audio seems to transfer fine.
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#1189584 - 01/08/13 06:47 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Frank Griffith
Planeteer/Artist # 300
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 12363
Loc: "All Be Quirky", NM
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I'm usually around on the week ends, nothing special planned for this coming weekend. Email me for my phone number if you don't still have it.
Fcgjabq@aol.com
Frank
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#1190166 - 01/11/13 04:38 AM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Frank Griffith]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Well I got in parts to breadboard up the MIDI port coming from the RBUS, and it all works fine. I can send MIDI out and IN through a RPC card.
So it is all working as I imagined it - I can transfer 8 channels of AUDIO each direction between ADAT and RBUS reliably, and access the RBUS MIDI port.
This work has satisfied my curiosity to verify that I fully understand the RBUS interface and the ADAT interface, which was my main reason to do it.
But I have not really seen that much interest here, at least not enough to drive me to continue and design a real printed circuit board, and build units for sale....
So I will probably just shelve this breadboard and move on the next project (I am thinking of continuing with MIDI and building up a cool MIDI gadget that I have been thinking about)
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#1190332 - 01/11/13 06:31 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Frank Griffith
Planeteer/Artist # 300
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 12363
Loc: "All Be Quirky", NM
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Good luck with the cool MIDI gadget.
Keep on trackin'
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#1190347 - 01/11/13 07:22 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Frank Griffith]
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Starliner
Planeteer
Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 3173
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
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Quote:
"But I have not really seen that much interest here, at least not enough to drive me to continue and design a real printed circuit board, and build units for sale....
So I will probably just shelve this breadboard and move on the next project (I am thinking of continuing with MIDI and building up a cool MIDI gadget that I have been thinking about)."
WOW! It's really a shame to have gotten this far just to sit the idea aside just to gather dust.
Is it getting the board laid out and /or manufactured that gives you hesitation? I realize the VS is far from the hottest thing on most people's "got to have" list, but I wonder at what point building some of them would pay off?
What about just doing a board design and making a kit, or offering a board and a shopping list of components, along with some instructions?
I just hate to see good ideas go to waste, for whatever reason.
Starliner
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#1190423 - 01/11/13 09:20 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Starliner]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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I have the CAD tools and skill to do a PCB layout design, but the actual fab of a board like this involves having a shop that does this kind of stuff take the artwork and make the photomasks, do the etching and plating etc.
I do this all the time - probably have done 10 or 12 boards in the last few months in my day gig.
The cost for a run of about 25 boards is going to be somewhere between $1000 and $1200 I would guess. Then to purchase parts and have a shop that can do surface mount assembly and reflow soldering is probably another $1500. I guess I could do hand assembly and save a bit, but it really does not come out as good with surface mount stuff... and takes a lot of work and time
So to even break even I would have to sell at least 20 or 25 of these at $125 or so. (let alone get paid for any of my time - I usually charge about $100 per hour for this type of work)
So far I have seen about 5 or 6 persons here express interest, and figuring that about half of them would actually pony up $100... it doesn't really add up.
It might be that some would sell at other places than here, for instance on EBAY, but I do not think I want to speculate with this much money right now. It would take some marketing to pull it off for sure.
Anyone want to join in and help cover the costs? And help with marketing and selling?
In any case I have no regrets on coming this far. I mostly did it to gain knowledge in how RBUS and ADAT protocols work, and totally succeeded in that. The actual cost to breadboard it up was probably less than $150, and with that I have many parts left over for other projects. (For instance I think I am going to try and add ADAT to my TD-20 brain - it would be SO sweet to have 8 channels coming in to a DAW on one fiber cable, instead of a big snake)
Plus I bought a RPC card and a SI-24 to try it with from EBAY - but I will resell these and probably recoup pretty close to what I paid for them.
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#1190431 - 01/11/13 10:05 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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dkfackler
Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 705
Loc: Coventry, OH, planet Thulcandr...
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Ditto Starliner's sentiment.
I was looking forward to this!
DK
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#1190434 - 01/11/13 10:12 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Waterman
Artist # 435
Planeteer
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 6817
Loc: Atlantic Beach, Florida
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bear, you're such a tease! 
Economics and doing something like this is for real and I respect you for even considering it.
Fact is, I'm surprised every time I press the power switch on my 2480 and it still powers up!
Pete
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#1190447 - 01/11/13 11:00 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: Waterman]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6537
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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I probably will draw a real schematic of this just for future reference (in laying out a PCB, this would always be the first step anyway. First you draw a schematic which creates a NETLIST for the CAD tools)
When I do I will make it available for anyone who wants to build their own...
Or several of us kick in a few hundred and I will make it happen. If there is ever any profit from selling them we will share it.
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#1190461 - 01/11/13 11:22 PM
Re: RBUS ADAT convertor
[Re: bear]
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Ptr
Planeteer
Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 271
Loc: the Netherlands
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[quote=JazAddict]If it works out the way I picture it, my adapters would plug right into the RBUS connectors on the Roland device so no RBUS cable needed. Kind of a minimalist, cheaper DIF-AT for those who just want to move audio data around between RBUS and ADAT devices.
I just stumbled on this thread, very nice!
I like that idea of a small 'plug-on' a lot, so that the RBUS is changed into ADAT -IN & -OUT. I'm sure interested!
Didn't I see a ADA8000 in your picture ? Say a VSR-880 + ADA8000 + the converter would make for a nice 3RU portable recording setup, mic-pre's & all!
PCBs would be nice, but if the numbers aren't reached then I'd sure love to breadboard one myself. Any tricky parts required ?
Have a good weekend all
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