#1241152 - 09/04/13 12:12 AM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: JazAddict]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
More info on production models:
http://www.neumann.com/img/Linkgraphics/Solution-D_E.pdf
It looks like you control the gain and various settings remotely. Also has some sort of limiter tech (ala apogee) before the A/D stage.
Anyway--condenser mics really HAVE a preamp in them already to some degree. An M149 pretty much outputs line level. So does the Innertube. Many Chinese mics are run hot to sound better into the lousy preamps in some interface that give all of 20db of useably clean gain. Because tube mics don't work off 48vt, they have a tendency to be higher (or at least capacity to be). I seem to remember the Korby's being pretty hot, too. Point being--they're just using more voltage and putting some kind of variable gain adjustment into a circuit that's already there.
I'm not a fan of the idea. As Martina still uses one of those Nazi era RTF big bottle mics...and almost every record I care about vocal is cut with a mic born before me. So, if they had some proprietary tie in to a 2 track reel to reel....or wax cylinder....they'd be useless now. It changes how much I'm willing to value I'm willing to give to the mic.
A digital mic from 20 years ago would be outputting 20bit 48khz PCM. You know?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241217 - 09/04/13 04:44 AM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: motown59]
|
MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20767
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
|
My Chameleon labs is sort of cool but it hums and it's big.
Kel, do you have the rack mounted CPS-1 power supply?
If so, where do you have the power supply relative to the preamp?
It's not mounted right under/over it, is it?
If you haven't already, move the power supply as far away as possible.
When I mounted mine (2), I put the PS at the bottom of the rack, about as far away as the length of the PS cable, and never had any hum.
If that doesn't work for you, contact CL - it should not hum, period.
Good luck.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241220 - 09/04/13 04:57 AM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20767
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
|
I could make a VERY solid theoretical argument FOR "digital MICS". Granted, it wouldn't compel ME to buy them...but, in theory, the preamp circuit can be perfectly match for the mic'd output and impedence needs and the conversion to PCM flattering to the aforementioned circuits, so that any nimrod with an Mbox can get the same capture quality from the mic desired. No variation.
Beyerdynamic was making digital microphones back in the late 1990s.
Digital recording still wasn't quite mature back then, but there's been plenty of time to develop something desirable.
I just don't see the draw for professionals or most semi-serious home/project studios.
USB mics seem to do for those who just want to record with the least fuss of do podcasts, etc.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241287 - 09/04/13 02:02 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: MadGuitrst]
|
Memphis Monroe
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 27450
Loc: Pensacola, FL
|
As always, I fall somewhere in the middle on all this. I love vintage stuff because, well, it’s vintage, and vintage is cool. Unfortunately, the wife and kids won’t allow me to have the pockets for it, not right now at least. Still, there’s a functionality factor too, and really it just gets back to that law of diminishing returns thing.
Coolness factor aside, I could give a crap what a record was made with as long as it sounds good. We all know a lot of great recordings have been done on less than optimal gear in very minimal conditions but by great artists and great engineers. I feel like most of us today already have way more gear than actual ability, and my goal is not to try and compensate lack of engineering skills with excessive gear; so, my aim is to learn my gear backwards and forwards in order to get every ounce of potential out of that gear.
That said, it’s nice to have options (a few different pres and different mics). With something like the Warm Audio TB, some nicer SDCs than I already have, and a KSM 32 I’d be rock’n. …at some point I’d throw a better ribbon in there too I suppose, but you know how that goes….
Damn, I just remembered I need to get my 4 track reel to reel serviced too….
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241300 - 09/04/13 03:24 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Memphis Monroe]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
Yeah, I have NO inherent love for vintage stuff. I'm saddened by how much new stuff SUCKS. There's a difference. New guitars? Amps? Are every bit the equal, and in ways better than vintage units.
Preamps? Sure. Same.
But, LDC mics? Not even in the same LEAGUE.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241367 - 09/04/13 08:42 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20767
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
|
I agree with you on guitars and amps.
There is crazy good gear out there these days.
I would have agreed with your opinion on mics that until X amount of years ago.
I think that "the clones" have gotten really good, the expensive clones, that is.
While not the real thing:
I think/know I got steals with my Beesneez mics cause I bought at the right time and got a huge "solid" from Ben.
Got the Arabella, a 47-ish mic with Telefunken EF-12 steel tube, 2461NiCo transformer and a capsule that Klaus the God of mics said was among the best he's ever tested - no 47 but it's a very good mic.
The Phelicity (his sick daughter's name...such a little cutie), a 251/C12-ish mic with a CK12 capsule, 2461NiCo Tansformer, etc. - it's no 251 but it's damn good.
The James, which is the best mic I ever owned for my voice by far and the least expensive of the bunch.
All are completely hand wired, P2P.
All for for a total of $2600....that's about $800 each when you include shipping and figure in 3% exchange fee...ya just can't touch that.
They aren't spot on clones nor meant to be, but not only are they in the same league, they're in the ballpark.
JJ Audio can do a very good 251 circuit and use a Campbell capsule for about $1,200.00 or so.
I don't know about his U87-ish mic but he's using good transformers and is buying custom jobs from Marik.
In all, he can make a damn good mic for a good price (still).
Unfortunately, some of the components that made those mics magical can no longer be sourced....and that is that, for now.
Yes, I'd like a real 251 and an M49 with real AC701 tubes but that's not happening.....ever, unless I win a lottery for a couple hundred million (then I'll but a bunch of you some great gear!).
Anyway, mic tech might move forward if people would stop chasing the holy grail(s) of yesterday.
A few have, but they're always judged against the typical classics and they're just different....and expensive.
Me? I graduated to as far as I need to go with LDC mics.
Yes, there are some very good mics available today, even if they aren't exact replications of the classics.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241375 - 09/04/13 09:02 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: MadGuitrst]
|
Memphis Monroe
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 27450
Loc: Pensacola, FL
|
Anyway, mic tech might move forward if people would stop chasing the holy grail(s) of yesterday.
A few have, but they're always judged against the typical classics and they're just different....and expensive.
That's been my argument for years. I think Kell mics, among others, are great, but they're their own thing and not attempts at remakes of old designs....it's 2013 for God's sake....we're not driving Duisenbergs or Model Ts anymore. Mic tech needs to move forward and stop looking backwards.
BTW, while I was checking my spelling on google for “Duisenberg” I discovered there’s a Duisenberg guitar company……did not know that….learn something new every day….
Chris
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241398 - 09/04/13 10:59 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Memphis Monroe]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
That's talk and that's it.
Functionally, I've not found a single LDC mic that can deliver. Look at the amount of people who think multiband compressors and deEssers and constant fader riding are important aspects of vocal production. Let me be clear, if you're doing more than set compressor, dial in source appropriate air Post compression (if you care about it being an airy sound) the mic isn't appropriate for close mic vocals.
Is that anyone here's production method for vocals?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241401 - 09/04/13 11:14 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
Also, side note...the era is over. There's nothing BUT looking back. I will be happily surprised if I'm wrong.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241423 - 09/05/13 03:04 AM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
So....a guy walks into a bar, drops trou, shits on the bar, and says "who's buyin?"
I occasionally amaze myself with my ability to rain on parades. Please carry on. I promise I've said all I needed to...and then some....on the subject.  Peace.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241468 - 09/05/13 11:04 AM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: MadGuitrst]
|
Arthur
WaffleMan
Planeteer
Registered: 04/22/99
Posts: 9877
Loc: a Mac of some kind
|
Since I've been out of the loop for several years, I don't know much about the new mics.
All I can say is that I had a M49, a 67 and two 87 and I loved them, especially the 67 sounded like crazy. That song "Duesenberg" that I posted recently, the vocals were recorded with the 67. What a creamy rich and still accurate mic that was...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241483 - 09/05/13 01:32 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Arthur]
|
Memphis Monroe
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 27450
Loc: Pensacola, FL
|
Since I've been out of the loop for several years, I don't know much about the new mics.
All I can say is that I had a M49, a 67 and two 87 and I loved them, especially the 67 sounded like crazy. That song "Duesenberg" that I posted recently, the vocals were recorded with the 67. What a creamy rich and still accurate mic that was...
That’s fantastic, but that’s like saying, “I’ve never really paid any attention to Hondas, Toyotas, Chevys, Fords, etc. All I can say is my 100k Mercedes drives like a dream.” I would LOVE—and I mean literally be over the moon—to own or even have access to a Neumann U67, U47, or U87, but like the vast majority of folks, my pockets just aren’t that deep.
Does that mean I can’t find a good mic that gets the job done in the sub 1k range?..…Heck no!.....My favorite mics in my locker right now are a Violet Black Doly, a Blue Bluebird, a Studio Projects C3, a Studio Projects TB-1, a MXL cr24, a PE modded Oktava 219, and the old trust Shure SM7b. I have others too, but all the aforementioned sound fantastic for given applications. Are they the caliber of a U87?....well, no….I’ve sung through a U87, U47, and U67 before—although it’s been a long time….but I have a general sense of what they sound like…..what I can say is the additional money a U87, for example, would run me is not worth it to me at this point because the mics I have do a fine job at what I do.
Plus, as we all know “better” is a subjective term. There’s NO doubt Neumann makes the benchmark microphones, but when those U67s, 47s, and 87s were designed everyone was hitting tape. The capsules were purposely built with a bump in mind in order to compensate for tape. Not too many people use tape anymore. Of course, for years Chinese manufacturers tried to copy the old archetypes, not realizing their logic was flawed. So, in chasing that old design and using inferior parts they created mics that notoriously have a hyped bump in the upper frequencies. Yet, in recent years MXL, CAD, and others have caught on to that and have started manufacturing mics catered to today’s tech and methods. That’s a good thing IMO.
That said, I have to disagree with Popman on this. I don’t think the old standards will remain “standard” much longer, if they’re not already on the out. Sure, anyone with the pocketbook can go out and spend 3-5k on a mic and while they’re at it throw down 50k for a console, just to turn around and have some kid with an inexpensive bedroom studio and a $200 LDC give them a run for their money. This happens all the time.
The point is, it’s not the gear. It’s the person behind the gear. Author, you’re an old pro. You know exactly what you’re doing, and although it’s true having the best tools makes it easier to do, I’m sure you could walk into my humble music room and cut good tracks with the same mics I mentioned above. I’m sure too that no one would say “that didn’t sound like it was cut with a U67; so, I don’t like it.”
Edited by Gretsch 6120 (09/05/13 01:40 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241488 - 09/05/13 01:44 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Arthur]
|
motown59
Planeteer/Artist # 238
Planeteer
Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 17848
Loc: California
|
where is my umbrella.
"If I only had a.." Seems like a perfectly good reason to concede that one might never make an outstanding recording. I've never really chased the ultimate vocal sound, haven't tried lots of mics. I sort of sound like me, give or take 15% on most of what I've tried. That being said I dont agree that new mics suck. I would agree however since the dawn of the home project studio a lot more companies have entered the market with mid range to low end stuff, looking for a piece of the market. Consequently there are lots of good $500, $1000 and $1500 pieces of gear. ..and lots of mediocre stuff.
It's especially difficult to admit that the magic voice happens before the mic. That cream rises to the top, they go to big expensive studios. Big expensive studios buy big expensive gear. They also have the best rooms, and engineers. They are going to pick a mic amongst their expensive pieces. Choices will be made and said artist finds a choice and always uses that. Why would they even try an Mxl, Peluso, etc. to prove what? So, to say that every voice I've ever cared about was not on a SP C1 doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Edited by motown59 (09/05/13 02:51 PM)
_________________________
kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
Gear: Fender Medium pick
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241489 - 09/05/13 01:54 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Arthur]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
Yeah, I am dismayed at the lack of a 67/269 (or original 87i) replacement. That's what it come down to.
Edited by Popmann (09/05/13 02:34 PM)
Edit Reason: Promise kept
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241493 - 09/05/13 02:08 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
Arthur
WaffleMan
Planeteer
Registered: 04/22/99
Posts: 9877
Loc: a Mac of some kind
|
I never said that new mics suck I just have not heard them thoroughly enough to make an informed opinion about them.
Could I make a good track with cheap China mics? Probably yes, depends on what mic gives me the sound I'm hearing in my head.
Frankly, yes, I was very spoiled with those mics. Bought them dirt cheap at an auction back in 98 or so. Pure luck I stumbled on them.
So what I am trying to say: I don't care about the brand or price tag. As long as it gives me the sound I want, it is a good mic. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241494 - 09/05/13 02:10 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
...
Edited by Popmann (09/05/13 02:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Promise kept
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241499 - 09/05/13 02:48 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Arthur]
|
Memphis Monroe
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 27450
Loc: Pensacola, FL
|
I never said that new mics suck I just have not heard them thoroughly enough to make an informed opinion about them. Could I make a good track with cheap China mics? Probably yes, depends on what mic gives me the sound I'm hearing in my head. Frankly, yes, I was very spoiled with those mics. Bought them dirt cheap at an auction back in 98 or so. Pure luck I stumbled on them. So what I am trying to say: I don't care about the brand or price tag. As long as it gives me the sound I want, it is a good mic.
No, I didn’t take your comments as condescending in the least, nor did I think you were saying anything particularly “sucked.”….I was just bouncing off your own more ideal mic situation and putting It into perspective for those of us who don’t necessarily have that luxury….again, I’d be the first to admit that U67, U87, and U47 are all awesome mics….no doubt about it…
One caveat to my setup: Of course, the Oktava 219, Violet Black Doly, and Shure SM7b are not of Asian descent. Another great mic I mentioned above that’s not a Chinese built LDC is the KSM 44/32. Those mics aren’t U87s of course nor do they try to be. But anyone with a fair amount of ability should be able to cut good tracks with any of the aforementioned mics IME.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241500 - 09/05/13 03:00 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Popmann]
|
Memphis Monroe
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 27450
Loc: Pensacola, FL
|
Yeah, I am dismayed at the lack of a 67/269 (or original 87i) replacement. That's what it come down to.
It doesn’t follow that everything sucks just because you can’t find exact 68, 269, or 87i replacements. If you’re cutting to tape then I can understand why that might be so important. Otherwise, the purist mentality gets in the way if we’re talking modern approaches (interfaces, PCs, plugins, etc.). It just doesn’t translate.
My philosophy is if you’re going to be a purist then go all in. Buy a console, an 8 track reel to reel, get some old mics, a lunchbox, old spring verb units, etc. …that’s great…in fact, that’s really cool, BUT if your tracks or your signal chain is processed with digital at any point beyond conversion of files for pressing or distribution over the internet, then all that purism defeats the purpose IMO.
I think modern tech is fantastic. The advancements and the affordability of great sounding gear makes this a golden era for artists. What we, as artists, do with it is up to us, and of course, as with all great opportunities, there’s a double edge sword to all this. The markets are flooded with budget and prosumer gear. Consumers have to do their homework, but if you do your homework you can find really good gear at a great value.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1241531 - 09/05/13 09:27 PM
Re: My Next Preamp
[Re: Memphis Monroe]
|
Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33081
Loc: Twangville, TN
|
Modern LDC mics are across the board FAR brighter than an old even 87, which is the brightest of the three I mentioned by a long shot.
While I the concept of "yeah but that was tape"....is valid in a lot of instances...this isn't one. In fact, the 67s came back into fashion BECAUSE of digital recording exposing the brightness in LDC mics without a negative feedback network.
Vintage Neumanns make up some 80-90% of the digitally recorded vocals I buy. If you add in vintage C12s, 251s, and Sm7s, you're gonna hit 99%. See where I'm going with this? All digital. I'm going to venture you don't pay attention and geek out on such details. But, that's the connection.
The difference isn't end result as much as it is how you get there.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
