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#12450 - 11/17/06 01:22 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
JimmyT Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/26/99
Posts: 7515
Loc: Snellville, GA, US
I'm just really excited about this effort. But also quite a bit peeved. It amazes me that a handful of individuals, working independently in their spare time, are able to do in a few weeks what an entire large corporation couldn't (or maybe wouldn't) do over the course of several years.


I guess the key word in the above paragraph is "wouldn't". \:\( :rolleyes: :censored:
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My CD Releases
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#12451 - 11/17/06 01:52 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
flatcat Administrator Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 24032
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Here's the piece I don't understand: compression.

If RDAC is a compression algorithm, what exactly are these utilities doing? How does one uncompress the data?

Just trying to understand this better - I have no doubt that it all works (and I offer my congratulations), I just can't wrap my head around how this "conversion" is happening, and I don't speak C well enough to figure it out. \:D
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Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"

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#12452 - 11/17/06 01:55 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
randygo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Washington
Well, when I though about how long it would take to stream a full 16GB worth of audio from my VS-1680 to my PC using the real-time S/PDIF connection, I realized I could probably figure out the MTP format, re-educate myself with Windows and C programming (have not done this for 10 years), and write a converter in a shorter amount of time. How screwed up is that?!

Cheers,

Randy

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#12453 - 11/17/06 07:14 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
I went into town and borrowed a couple of 2480 backup CDs from Frank Griffith (thanks Frank!).

As I suspected, the delimiters around the TAKE chunks inside the .iso image are different. I will have a TAKE file stripper for the 2480 shortly....actually a program to handle either...

Has anyone used the 1680 version yet? I would like verification that it works on someone else system other than mine.....

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#12454 - 11/17/06 07:20 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
randygo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Washington
bear,

It has also come to my attention that the VS-1880 may be different yet again. It seems this system tends to use a "VR5" extension rather than "VR6".

I don't know if this information is useful to you.

Cheers,

Randy

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#12455 - 11/17/06 07:30 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
@Flatcat - RDAC takes chunks of 16 24 bit samples (48 bytes) and by performing math magic stores them as 16 bytes (3:1 compression)

What Randygo's application does is perform the inverse math magic to take these 16 byte chunks and turn them back into 24 bit samples in a .wav format file. (how the hell he figured out the exact math technique to use is still blowing my mind).

But it really works, I have converted several dozen files using his routine over the last couple of days, and they come out as nice wave files that can be played from the PC.

I have done some special test cases with pure sine waves, and then looked at the spectral content, and the reconstructed files are pretty good.

Also Danielo has compared the .wav files produced by the 2480 to the .wav constructed by Randygo's utility, and my understanding is they are at least better than 99% the same.....

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#12456 - 11/17/06 07:33 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
@randygo - yes I am seeing the TAKEs from the 2480 are .VR1 files... the 1680 is .VR6

It will probably be possible to deal with 1880 backups also, but I will need someone to send me a backup disc to look at.......

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#12457 - 11/17/06 07:36 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
Who out there has C source or knows how to do a raw sector read of a CD????

Converting to .iso is not real hard, but it sure would be cool to just read the CD directly.....

I think I heard Danielo say he knew how to do it...

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#12458 - 11/18/06 12:23 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
HeHe it all seems to work. Now reads both 1680 and 2480 backup discs (or actually a .iso image of a backup disc) and strips out all TAKE files.

As it strips the TAKE files it converts them to .wav inline.......


edited 11/29 - I removed the source listing - it was out of date and silly big

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#12459 - 11/18/06 12:26 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
I am going to email the .exe and the source to JimmyT. Hopefully he will be nice enough to put them on his site and post a link......
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#12460 - 11/18/06 12:36 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
Oh I still need to put in the command line stuff for variable sample rates and bit depths....

Right now it is hardcoded at 44100khz and 24bit...

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#12461 - 11/18/06 01:25 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
randygo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Washington
bear,

Wow, thats one long post :-). My decode method is a little on the long size!

Normally, I keep things short and sweet, but my thinking with that was that I would try to code it such that it would execute as fast as possible, minimizing lookups and any other unnecessary operations. So there is a pattern lookup, a switch statement to the pattern value, and then a bunch of macro operations to implement the bit shifts etc., hopefully it all gets compiled down into some tight code. In truth I never benchmarked it, so perhaps that decode method could be written in to be one tenth its size without any adverse performance impact. If I was just a bit more obsessive I'm sure I'd be still tuning a hand-coded assembler version.

I don't have a CD burner for my VS-1680, so unfortunately I can't try your stuff, but its good to know you have solved this problem if I ever get one.

Cheers,

Randy

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#12462 - 11/18/06 02:37 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
yeah it is getting silly to be posting long sources....

In the interest of just getting it to work I just cut and pasted your decode and wave packer into one flat file....the compiler was giving me grief about having it in seperate modules for some reason, and I was too lazy to figure it out.....

I did make a small change just now.... when nero makes a .nrg file it pads a bunch of zero's into the front....this was breaking the 2480/1680 determination

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#12463 - 11/18/06 08:58 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
nyaben Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 645
Loc: Virginia
Someone mentioned the need to test reading with a 1680 backup. I could do it whenever it is available. How does it work...I know Windows XP doesn't even recognize the backup CDs I've made. Does it use some low level type read of the disc?

Thanks for all the great work...you guys are amazing.
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#12464 - 11/18/06 12:26 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
@nyaben - I am looking into how low level sector reading of a CD could be done. If I can figure that out, then the program could be made to read a roland disc directly.

As it stands the program works on an .iso image of the backup disc. There are several programs that can produce .iso image files. I am successfully using alcohol120% and nero, but I think some versions of roxio etc also work.

I would recommend alcohol120%. You can get a free 30 day eval of it from

http://www.alcohol-soft.com/

And then it is only $50 or so to buy if you like it. It will basically copy any CD or DVD put to it, and the .iso files it produces work fine with my utility.

Send me a PM with your email and I will send the .exe of the stripper program....

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#12465 - 11/18/06 02:47 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
I downloaded several .iso ripping shareware/freeware programs to see if they can handle the roland backup discs...

Most can't -

EZDVDCDBURN3
isocommander
poweriso33
Magiciso
winiso53
isobuster
isorecorderv2rc1

all don't work


I found one that works great - shareware - free to try $30 to buy ..... Ultraiso

http://www.ezbsystems.com/enindex.html

So so far I have been successful with alcohol120%, NERO and Ultraiso. All three rip .iso images (nero rips a .nrg file) with no problem in a format that my utility can handle fine....

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#12466 - 11/18/06 04:26 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Mangled Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 15
Loc: The Netherlands
Hey guys,

It has been a while since I visited the good old VS planet. But what a surprise...this mtp2wav thing is just GREAT news.
It seems we will be able to ressurect recordings that we all forgot we ever made them (talking 1995 here) and do some auto tune on that damn vocal track. Put some convolution reverbs on those di tracks..and so on...That's what I would call a remix!
Especially this tool thats reads the iso images is a perfect add on.

Keep it up...VS planet still ROCKS!!

Erwin

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#12467 - 11/18/06 06:38 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Doofie Offline
Doofie
Planeteer


Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 8476
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
So is this an easy thing to do? For us computer dopes, does the exe. file explain what to do?
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#12468 - 11/18/06 07:11 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
1. make a .iso file of a roland backup disc (see above for programs to do this)

2. put the .exe and the .iso in a temp directory somewhere

3. open a dos command window and go to this directory

4. Run the program. All the TAKE chunks in the .iso will be converted to .VR6 files (what the roland uses for it's storage) and .wav files that can be opened in other music programs.

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#12469 - 11/19/06 12:52 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
flatcat Administrator Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 24032
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
You should be able to create .iso files using Nero. That I remember, you can specify it the type of image you make - but I haven't looked at it in a little while. But I used to do it all the time.
_________________________
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"

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#12470 - 11/19/06 02:57 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
hunter Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 07/29/99
Posts: 20
 Quote:
Originally posted by bear:
1. make a .iso file of a roland backup disc (see above for programs to do this)

2. put the .exe and the .iso in a temp directory somewhere

3. open a dos command window and go to this directory

4. Run the program. All the TAKE chunks in the .iso will be converted to .VR6 files (what the roland uses for it's storage) and .wav files that can be opened in other music programs.
I can almost understand this. The remaining question is which ".exe" file are you referring to? And assuming I can get that software that'll make ISO file out of my Roland backup CDs.

And thanks to all. This looks like a huge and commendable effort to me.

hunter

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#12471 - 11/19/06 07:16 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
The .exe is the one you get when you PM or email me asking me to send it you ..... currently called VsRdr_ver002.exe. I really need to find a place to put this where people can download it.

Currently only works with 1680 and 2480 backups... I need someone to send me a 1880 backup disc so I can add in that functionality.


Making a .iso is very easy with either alcohol or ultraiso, mentioned above with links to download...

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#12472 - 11/19/06 07:36 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
I just put the file on easy share

download

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#12473 - 11/20/06 01:57 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
JimmyT Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/26/99
Posts: 7515
Loc: Snellville, GA, US
Sorry Bear, been out of the loop for awhile. I see you found a place to post it. Looks like great work. Can't wait to try it.
_________________________
The Scribblin' Jones Band
www.scribblinjones.com

My CD Releases
From Horses to Highways - Suburban Blues
Seven Shades of Blue
VSP Artist page here

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#12474 - 11/20/06 06:32 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Neil B Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 7
Loc: UK
Downloaded bear's program for stripping wav files out of a 1680 backup disc and had a go. Worked perfectly on one of my MTP songs..!!


Out of interest I had a go with another old backup disc which contained 10 songs recorded in a mixture of MT1, MT2 and LIV modes (they were imported from my old VS880). The 10 songs took 12 minutes to strip all 425 VR6 Take files (507MB) and the corresponding 425 Wav files (1.51GB). (...Just a bit quicker than doing it 2 tracks at a time via the digital output!) I expected the Wav files to sound garbage (as this is a decoder for MTP right?). Indeed this was the case for the MT2 and LIV tracks... BUT the MT1 tracks played perfectly! How's that for a bonus!


To randygo, danielo, bear et al. - been following these threads with interest. Many congratulations on a fantastic job so far... keep it going.

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#12475 - 11/20/06 06:46 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
randygo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Washington
>BUT the MT1 tracks played perfectly!

Holy cow. You mean we've unknowingly had MT1 all along? Are you sure they were MT1?

I knew the encodings were probably similar, I guess they are pretty much identical. There might be a few adjustments required to deal with the 16/24-bit difference, but I will look into this.

Cheers,

Randy

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#12476 - 11/20/06 11:05 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6223
Loc: abq,nm,usa
Thanks for the feedback Neil... great to hear it worked correctly for you... is it working for anyone else?

That is very interesting about the MT1...

I am working now on making the program also strip out the eventlist files and other files that are embedded in the backup discs..

Using these with the reaper importer randygo is working on, it should be possible to pull all data out and build a file with all clips lined up correctly on a timeline. How cool will that be!!!!!

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#12477 - 11/21/06 09:00 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
nyaben Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 645
Loc: Virginia
Was about to ask about the other files (song, event list)...looks like you're already on the case bear.

Thanks again for all you are doing.
_________________________
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#12478 - 11/21/06 11:36 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Mike_Strat Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 03/12/00
Posts: 1060
Loc: Albany, NY USA
God bless each and every one of you working on this!
This is wayyyyy over my head so I have a couple clarifying questions:

Do I have it right that this would enable VS-1680/1880/2480 tracks to be imported from a data backup CD-R into a computer audio recording program such as Sonar? Would that be one track at a time or maybe all tracks at once?

Thank you VERY much! Mike \:\)

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#12479 - 11/21/06 11:54 AM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Nathan's Dad Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, TX
Yep Mike,

I believe the end result is all tracks at once. Did you see this thread?

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022178;p=2


James
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James
My Music
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#12480 - 11/21/06 12:01 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Nathan's Dad Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, TX
And this is the most current thread:

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022189
_________________________
James
My Music
My Website
My IAC Page
James 1:17

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#12481 - 11/21/06 01:13 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Mike_Strat Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 03/12/00
Posts: 1060
Loc: Albany, NY USA
Thank you, James, for those links. I had not seen them. It's a LOT to sift through! Whew!

Another question:
Is a SCSI interface needed on a PC for this to work? You can't just pop a VS backup data CD-R into the PC's CD ROM drive? or???

Mike

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#12482 - 11/21/06 02:35 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Nathan's Dad Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, TX
Another question:
Is a SCSI interface needed on a PC for this to work? You can't just pop a VS backup data CD-R into the PC's CD ROM drive? or???

bear is currently working on the utility that will eventually integrate into reaper to allow use of the VS backup cdr.
_________________________
James
My Music
My Website
My IAC Page
James 1:17

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#12483 - 11/21/06 02:46 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
randygo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 330
Loc: Washington
>bear is currently working on the utility that
>will eventually integrate into reaper to allow
>use of the VS backup cdr.

As far as I know, bear's utility helps strip out the data files from the backup CD an place them into the PC filesystem as regular files. Once this is done, then the SONG file can be opened in Reaper using my plugin, or other tools can be used.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to "integrate" bear's utility into Reaper in any way.

Cheers,

Randy

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#12484 - 11/21/06 03:46 PM Re: RDAC to WAV Conversion Utility Available (Windows .EXE)
Nathan's Dad Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, TX
Oops...

Randy,

Just to be clear, at this point with your Reaper plug-in, is it or is it not possible to open songs from a VS backup CDR?

Thanks

James
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My Website
My IAC Page
James 1:17

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