#1270618 - 01/07/14 09:45 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: havlicek]
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Blue Roots
Planeteer
Registered: 09/23/00
Posts: 12120
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I hear you, John.
There is a practical aspect of conversation that is pretty common, IMO. Where through experience we take away what we generally determine to be the "points" that we pick up through the exchange of ideas and information. We deem through our own filters the more interesting or "valuable" pieces of info. In that sense, even after we have dissected the fuck out of this, I'm left only with a slightly new general idea about this subject given the comments and information provided here so far, particularly, in this thread's case, Sky's. That new take of mine has little to nothing, naturally, to do with HER opinions necessarily - but the info about her experience there provided anecdotal info that makes sense to me. I "buy" it. She may hold an opinion that is broad and sweeping (not to mention way the fuck off base and/or not true) - but I'm not one to miss that if there is any truth to the anecdotal info she shared... there is no doubt subtlety and variation in the attitudes there that she was sharing. Of course there is - there has to be. "Racism" as well as other behaviors and attitudes point often involve subtlety and matters of degrees.
Anyway... so, yeah.... that.  I'll tell my wife about this conversation later and I promise to do my best not to mis-characterize anything that anyone said here today. 
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#1270622 - 01/07/14 10:14 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: TwoTonCarmine]
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Infinitymobile
Planeteer
Registered: 05/24/11
Posts: 12863
Loc: Kansas City
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My drummer and song writing partner of over a decade is 1/2 Peruvian (his mother was born and raised there and is 100% Peruvian) and after he went to Machu Pichu for the first time, he expressed disbelief in how something like that could have been built by HIS ancient ancestors and the technology available at the time.......I guess he is racist against his own people?????
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#1270627 - 01/07/14 10:23 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Blue Roots]
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havlicek
Planeteer
Registered: 05/26/02
Posts: 6738
Loc: East Hampton, NY
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I hear you, John. There is a practical aspect of conversation that is pretty common, IMO. Where through experience we take away what we generally determine to be the "points" that we pick up through the exchange of ideas and information. We deem through our own filters the more interesting or "valuable" pieces of info. In that sense, even after we have dissected the fuck out of this, I'm left only with a slightly new general idea about this subject given the comments and information provided here so far, particularly, in this thread's case, Sky's. That new take of mine has little to nothing, naturally, to do with HER opinions necessarily - but the info about her experience there provided anecdotal info that makes sense to me. I "buy" it. She may hold an opinion that is broad and sweeping (not to mention way the fuck off base and/or not true) - but I'm not one to miss that if there is any truth to the anecdotal info she shared... there is no doubt subtlety and variation in the attitudes there that she was sharing. Of course there is - there has to be. "Racism" as well as other behaviors and attitudes point often involve subtlety and matters of degrees. Anyway... so, yeah.... that. I'll tell my wife about this conversation later and I promise to do my best not to mis-characterize anything that anyone said here today.
You know what Dave?...the whole "racism" thing never occurred to me. In that sense, she has sort of "enlightened me" as well. Of course, we're all just accepting the fact that she has in fact "been there" at face value. Pretty much all of us and anyone who's been on the internet for at least a day  realize that people claim all sorts of things on the WWW. Still, I'll accept that she HAS been there and spoken to some natives about this. I still think the racism thing is dumb and maybe even really harmful, even though I know full well that all the various "isms" can be couched in nuance and hard to decipher.
On another note, Al...you continue to prove to the world what a dipshit you are, so please whatever you do DON'T STOP!
-john
_________________________
"anyone who believes that what they think is so important they will post political messages in a no-politics forum, only highlights their assholiness"
-John Havlicek (from "How To Spot An Internet Idiot", © 2012)
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#1270632 - 01/07/14 10:46 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Blue Roots]
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Infinitymobile
Planeteer
Registered: 05/24/11
Posts: 12863
Loc: Kansas City
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By the way Infinitymobile... have you read Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" yet? I ask because you have clearly expressed an interest in knowing the how's and why's of many folks accusations of wrong doing - and that one book spells it out in crystal clear terms from one of the most successful trial lawyers of our time. If you haven't - you should really read it.
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#1270644 - 01/07/14 11:33 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: havlicek]
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Ismellelephant
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 55974
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On another note, Al...you continue to prove to the world what a dipshit you are, so please whatever you do DON'T STOP! -john
What about me?
_________________________
We're all gonna lose an eye!!!
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#1270650 - 01/08/14 12:06 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Ismellelephant]
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Doug C
Planeteer/Artist # 78
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 10921
Loc: Clayton, California
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My drummer and song writing partner of over a decade is 1/2 Peruvian (his mother was born and raised there and is 100% Peruvian) and after he went to Machu Pichu for the first time, he expressed disbelief in how something like that could have been built by HIS ancient ancestors and the technology available at the time.......I guess he is racist against his own people?????
Another self hating Peruvian. Damn.
_________________________
Doug C
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#1270661 - 01/08/14 12:58 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: havlicek]
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AL
the last rock hope
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 75360
Loc: Walmartville
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I hear you, John. There is a practical aspect of conversation that is pretty common, IMO. Where through experience we take away what we generally determine to be the "points" that we pick up through the exchange of ideas and information. We deem through our own filters the more interesting or "valuable" pieces of info. In that sense, even after we have dissected the fuck out of this, I'm left only with a slightly new general idea about this subject given the comments and information provided here so far, particularly, in this thread's case, Sky's. That new take of mine has little to nothing, naturally, to do with HER opinions necessarily - but the info about her experience there provided anecdotal info that makes sense to me. I "buy" it. She may hold an opinion that is broad and sweeping (not to mention way the fuck off base and/or not true) - but I'm not one to miss that if there is any truth to the anecdotal info she shared... there is no doubt subtlety and variation in the attitudes there that she was sharing. Of course there is - there has to be. "Racism" as well as other behaviors and attitudes point often involve subtlety and matters of degrees. Anyway... so, yeah.... that. I'll tell my wife about this conversation later and I promise to do my best not to mis-characterize anything that anyone said here today. You know what Dave?...the whole "racism" thing never occurred to me. In that sense, she has sort of "enlightened me" as well. Of course, we're all just accepting the fact that she has in fact "been there" at face value. Pretty much all of us and anyone who's been on the internet for at least a day realize that people claim all sorts of things on the WWW. Still, I'll accept that she HAS been there and spoken to some natives about this. I still think the racism thing is dumb and maybe even really harmful, even though I know full well that all the various "isms" can be couched in nuance and hard to decipher. On another note, Al...you continue to prove to the world what a dipshit you are, so please whatever you do DON'T STOP! -john
If a snotty snot like you approved of me, I'd be worried.
_________________________
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#1270702 - 01/08/14 03:48 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: AL]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20770
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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I think Blue Roots has a crush and Al is smitten.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1270704 - 01/08/14 03:49 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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AL
the last rock hope
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 75360
Loc: Walmartville
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with who ?
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#1270705 - 01/08/14 03:54 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: AL]
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NOK
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28813
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
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smelly's feeling left out since silvy moved so far away.. maybe you all could get some chemistry going or something
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#1270832 - 01/08/14 06:33 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Infinitymobile]
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Blue Roots
Planeteer
Registered: 09/23/00
Posts: 12120
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By the way Infinitymobile... have you read Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" yet? I ask because you have clearly expressed an interest in knowing the how's and why's of many folks accusations of wrong doing - and that one book spells it out in crystal clear terms from one of the most successful trial lawyers of our time. If you haven't - you should really read it. I have not read it. Can you give me the cliff notes or some sort of summary?
No.
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#1271034 - 01/09/14 12:05 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Infinitymobile]
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SkyWave
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 14755
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You know what is sad, infinity, is that your half Peruvian drummer has internalized the view of the racists that his ancestors could not have built Machu Picchu. The fact is that yes, his ancestors did build it, archaeologists know it, historians know it, there is no question but that it was built by the people of the remarkable Inca empire. Peruvian academics and teachers and historians want the young people of Peru to know what their ancestors did, to have a sense of pride in those achievements and about the people they are descended from. Instead the children of Peru too often are fed the racist message that their brown Indian skin makes them inferior and that space aliens, and not the Inca, built the wonders of Peru.
Peru is the only country in the Western hemisphere where the native peoples, the Indians, outnumber the Spaniards (who looted the country of its gold, silver, copper and enslaved the Indians). Racism is institutional and rampant in Peru, with the country having been largely run by light-skinned Spanish descendants who make up the wealthy upper class. The mestizos (mixed Spanish and Indian) are lower class and the lowest and most impoverished class of all are the native American Indian Peruvians, the Quechua and the Quero and Mochi and other native people.
And I am sorry, but anyone who uses a Peruvian drummer as an arbiter of reality on Inca history, archaeology, stone masonry and construction does not have adequate information on which to base an opinion. I would suggest that you read books, and if possible, go there and see for yourself.
Yes, I have been in Nazca. And to Machu Picchu. And around Peru. I will never forget the plane ride to photograph the Nazca lines. The Third Worldish excuse for an airport had a total of two single-engine four-seater planes; when the Peruvian pilot learned that one of the passengers was afraid of flying in small planes, he undertook the most insane aerial acrobatics imaginable, a maniacal grin on his face the whole time we were rolling and looping and diving toward the ground and he took it as a great triumph when the passenger screamed bloody murder.
As for those who dismiss the Peruvian archeological wonders as the work of space aliens, sorry, but that stuff is pseudo-science, superstition, science illiteracy, on par with nervously clutching crystals while consulting horoscopes, an absence of critical faculties. The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light science sheds on the darkness trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir. And darkness and superstition fill the world. (Paraphrase of Carl Sagan)
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#1271145 - 01/09/14 08:45 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Infinitymobile]
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SkyWave
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 14755
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Actually, moontan, we KNOW that Egyptians built the pyramids. You are aware that various work crews carved their names into the stones.
And actually, I know a lot of scientists, mostly physicists and biologists, and none believe in space aliens. But they will speculate on numerical probabilities and other aspects of interstellar travel and the possiblilities of silicon-based lifeforms --- but being scientists, they know the difference between speculation and fact.
Here is what Carl Sagan, a scientist who believed there could be life elsewhere in the universe, said this abotu a space photo showing the earth as a pale blue dot:
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.
The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.” ― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space
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#1271153 - 01/09/14 08:55 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: SkyWave]
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moontan
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 31836
Loc: Sol III
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yeah, yeah, i know humans built the pyramids, i was just being facetious.
when i was a impressionable teen, i read the Von Daniken books and thought it might be related with aliens.
but i saw a National Geographic documentary or such and changed my mind, quite a long time ago actually.
anyway, back to our regular programming...
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#1271213 - 01/09/14 11:51 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: AL]
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moontan
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 31836
Loc: Sol III
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@ skywave
----
well yeah,
if your scientist friends don't believe in space aliens it means they believe we are all alone in the universe.
that's even more incredible than space aliens.
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#1271248 - 01/10/14 01:50 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: moontan]
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SkyWave
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 14755
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The view of most of the scientists I know is that it is possible that there are other planets in the universe that contain the pre-conditions for life and possibly life has arisen elsewhere. Or possibly not. We have no way of knowing. They also think that if life arose elsewhere, we have no way of knowing where evolution would lead on those worlds. They also almost uniformly believe that even if there is intelligent and technologically-sophisticated life elsewhere in the universe, there are extreme and quite likely insurmountable difficulties in interstellar travel, that intelligent life would not be interested in backward humanity, and given the geological time type differences in when other civilizations might rise and fall, the chance of an advanced civilization being at a stage to visit Earth when there were modern humans on it highly unlikely.
I would say some believe we are alone in the universe, either actually, or practically, given interstellar distances and other unlikelihoods. Most also point to getting nothing but silence from the universe. And I would say that most put space aliens in the realm of science fiction. And most would say space aliens are only something we can speculate about, and not something that can presently be investigated by the scientific method. We cannot exactly design an experiment to test any hypotheses about the existence of space aliens.
And some would say that it is unfortunate that humanity's beliefs in gods and demons, religions and 72 virgins and space aliens and new agey claptrap and charlatans and that spirulina and topaz crystals heal cancer blind them to the absolute known wondrousness of the lifeforms on this wondrous Earth.
It has turned out that I have a lot of scientists and especially physicists in my life, one of my neighbors is a nuclear physicist, another a physical chemist, another a bigshot biochemist, another teaches science; two of my best friends have physics degrees; and of my two closest assistants, one has a degree in philosophy and physics, the other a degree in astrophysics. So, whenever I have questions about physics, input is in easy range. I live mostly in an educated city with leading companies in biotech and biomedical and software engineering, it is not unusual to know scientists, they are everywhere here.
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#1271257 - 01/10/14 02:25 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: SkyWave]
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Vanillagrits
Planeteer
Registered: 11/09/04
Posts: 21558
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5 out of 4 of the scientists Skywild knows agree with her.
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#1271261 - 01/10/14 03:26 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Vanillagrits]
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NOK
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28813
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
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somewhere she did say she had a life...
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#1271266 - 01/10/14 04:14 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: NOK]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20770
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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Gotta go with SkyWild on this.
Bow to her articulate eloquence, you heathens!
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1271267 - 01/10/14 04:18 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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AL
the last rock hope
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 75360
Loc: Walmartville
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oh sheesh, what a surprise - you are the most closed-minded about UFOs at the Planet.
_________________________
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#1271268 - 01/10/14 04:50 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: AL]
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Jammer
Planeteer
Registered: 05/18/99
Posts: 18791
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Yeah Mad, Wild Sky has is right about space aliens. What I COMPLETELY disagree with though is the assumption that those who believe aliens built stuff on earth, hold those beliefs because they are racists. I'm sure that's quite the minority. They're not racists, they're just crazy. 
P.S. I love all of my crazy space alien believing Planeteer brethren. Hell, I pray to a Sky Daddy on a regular basis so who am I to judge???? 
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#1271284 - 01/10/14 07:03 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: Jammer]
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moontan
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 31836
Loc: Sol III
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skywave: Most also point to getting nothing but silence from the universe
the reason, once again (for the 5th time now?), why we are getting silence: 
"For good measure, in America we have switched from analogue to digital broadcasting and you are going to do the same in Britain very soon," Drake added. "When you do that, your transmissions will become four times fainter because digital uses less power."
"Very soon we will become undetectable," he said. In short, in space no one will hear us at all.
What is true for humans would probably also be true for aliens, who may already have moved to much more efficient methods of TV and radio broadcasting. Trying to find ET from their favourite shows was going to be harder than we thought, Drake said.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/jan/27/aliens-cant-hear-us-astronomer
----
Gotta go with SkyWild on this.
Bow to her articulate eloquence, you heathens!
there's a parakeet at the pet store who's also quite eloquent. lol 
seriously, it's like talking to a bunch of mental midgets when it comes to this subject.
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#1271296 - 01/10/14 08:18 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: moontan]
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SkyWave
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 14755
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moontan, I would say this. None of the scientists that I know believe that Earth is being visited or monitored by space alien or UFO beings.
I do know people who hold very strong beliefs in UFOs and space aliens and that the same have visited or are monitoring the Earth. Notably, none of this group are scientists or science-literate.
I think it is fine to let the imagination create and carry us to worlds that never were. And while I would agree that it is possible that life exists elsewhere in the cosmos, my attitude is kind of So what? It makes no difference to here and now and the overwhelming likelihood is that if such life exists, we will never know or have contact. Instead of expending the life and energy I have on trying to contact or filling my head with space alien stuff, I choose to use the energy instead to improve things for lifeforms on our home planet.
Here is a quote you might appreciate: "Whenever you receive a letter from a creditor, write fifty lines upon some extra-terrestrial subject and you will be saved." ---Charles Baudelaire
(Can also be used when you need a psychological deferment.)
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#1271298 - 01/10/14 08:27 AM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: SkyWave]
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AL
the last rock hope
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 75360
Loc: Walmartville
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And while I would agree that it is possible that life exists elsewhere in the cosmos, my attitude is kind of So what?
So you've basically contradicted your argument there.
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#1271312 - 01/10/14 12:45 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: moontan]
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fabulousthunderbird
Planeteer
Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 24117
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Don't forget about the man-made climate change hoax.
_________________________
"They walk among us, my son. By their ill-conceived and poorly executed facial hair shall ye know them..."
I am fonts
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#1271335 - 01/10/14 04:28 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: fabulousthunderbird]
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moontan
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 31836
Loc: Sol III
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Don't forget about the man-made climate change hoax.
nice try but no cigar.
anyway, the subject is UFO and things alien-related.
try to stay focused.
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#1271341 - 01/10/14 05:58 PM
Re: Nazca Lines
[Re: moontan]
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mrsinical
AudioWriter
Planeteer
Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 1792
Loc: Riding Indiana Waves of Audio
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Here's a good potential for a paradox, if you consider time travel a possibility in the future.
Think of the modern shaped airplane sculpture artifacts believed to have been made by the Nazca people over a thousand years ago.
If these ancient people did in fact see these objects - and therefore sculpted what they saw-
By dismissing the possibility that Aliens needing to conserve spacecraft fuel and used our current known aeronautic airplane designed machines to travel on the planet itself - opens up the possibility of future humans possibly discovering time travel at some point and gong back in time.
However, if future humans went back in time - they would either have had to take an airplane back with them - or somehow manufactured aeronautical aircraft with available resources at that time. If time travel is considered a possibility, I could envision a knowledgeable human possibly constructing such a device with available resources. (Maybe transporting items as large as a small airplane is/or will be possible - or even transporting some small machinery to build with / IE Makita drill set...LOL)
Furthermore, if much of our potential current and future knowledge came from these "odd" findings left by ancient people who described what they saw - how did we get the knowledge to invent time travel "before" we went back in time?
The widely accepted safe, sane possibility is that we are simply on an evolutionary trek of obtained knowledge that constantly leads to bigger and better technology by means of simple trial and error discovery.
BTW - I recently saw a video clip that claims the powers that be have a satellite(s) orbiting nearer to the sun - and they are blasting high power lasers into the corona to "see what happens" or to find out "what it's made of".
True, ???
However, the female commentator describing the obvious "laterally straight line solar flares" that looked to be in a direct, straight line across the sun - to be proof that a powerful laser was shot into the sun. After a few minutes - these strange "straight line" solar flares dissipated and the sun "repaired" itself.
I wouldn't put it beyond the common sense of the PTB to attempt such a potentially catastrophic experiment.
Just imagine if this is true and these "experiments" damage or even destroy our life giving sun!
Edited by mrsinical (01/10/14 06:10 PM)
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