#1496517 - 10/02/16 08:12 PM
Editing recording not done to a click
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Peter Lancaster
Planeteer
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 2153
Loc: Chichester, West Sussex, Unite...
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Last week I recorded a punk band. The band played live in the studio without a click. They overdubbed a lead guitar part and the vocals. Today I spent some time with the singer editing the song. Although the song wasn't played to a click he insisted that we picked the best verse and chorus and looped them keeping the intro and outro. The guitar part needed multiple edits as the timing wasn't great. I also had to move a couple of kicks. I didn't find this a particularly easy set of edits to do. In 15 years as a recording engineer I have never had to edit a track like this that wasn't played to a click (I have recorded hundreds of bands). The end result (just drums, bass and guitar) is ok and I managed all the edits without resorting to any time stretching.
I am not looking forward to trying to fit the vocals to the edited song. I fear that I'll be moving every single word to get it in time. I should be able to resort to using flextime, but it doesn't always work properly on my system following an update to Logic a few months ago.
The downside was that it took two and a half hours to do the editing (I'm using Logic X) which the singer thought was excessive and he told me that he thought that I didn't know how to use my software properly because he's worked in studios for forty years and knows that what he wanted doing could be done in an hour by someone who knows what they are doing. He only offered to pay me for half of the editing time, although he has paid upfront for the next three hour session (at half price).
In my defence although I have occasionally patched up takes in non click recorded tracks by cutting and pasting parts I have never been asked to do editing of this extent before. If the song had been recorded to a click and played tightly it would have been easy. I must admit that my editing is slow because I am precise. I learnt on a VS2480 and I still edit in a similar way. I zoom in on the waveforms and edit at null points. I only ever use a crossfade as a last resort. I take time to make sure that when soloed all my edits are inaudible. When doing edits in a free time piece I take care to very accurately line up the part I'm pasting in so that it at least starts in time and then I time stretch if necessary. I treat every recording as if it was my own and I try to get everything as perfect as I can.
Is the singer correct? Am I really slow at editing? Is he right to pay me only half my fee because someone else could do it in half the time?
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#1496538 - 10/03/16 01:16 AM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: Peter Lancaster]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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You could always offer to hand the project files over to him and let him take them to the guy that will do the job in half the time... he may not want to do that at double the fee, or most likely more.
He may not appreciate your work ethic, or you may be too slow, or it may be that having him there working on the edits with you is more time consuming than either of you realize.
Maybe he doesn't think the quality of the performance project is worth the scrutiny you want to put into the project. Maybe it would be better if he were to listen to a rough of what's there, send you notes on what he wants to fix and then leave it up to you to take as long as you need to get it "right", sending it back to him for approval after that.... Maybe just have him in session for the final mixdown stage.
Maybe you could agree on a flat fee for the remainder of the editing and you can decide on your own how many dollars you are willing to give up to finish it at your own speed..... then it shouldn't matter to him anymore how slow he thinks you work.
That's pretty much how I've ended up working for other people now - agree on a fee, do the work to my own satisfaction, get their final approval and take whatever I make on it in the end.
Sometimes there's more stages to this process, but that's basically it.
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uptildawn
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#1496633 - 10/03/16 09:17 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: uptildawn]
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Peter Lancaster
Planeteer
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 2153
Loc: Chichester, West Sussex, Unite...
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uptildawn thanks for your reply.
I have offered several times to get someone else to do the editing, but he's insistent that he wants me to do the work. I interpret that as that he just wants the job done cheaply. He knows that if he goes elsewhere it will cost him more than he wants to pay.
Like you I usually edit and mix without the artist present as I find it much more relaxed and I can work at my own pace. Most artists rarely understand what I am doing and get bored waiting to hear their mix. The alternative are ones like this guy who can hear every tiny imperfection in the track and want you to fix everything and want you to make things sound drastically different from how you recorded them e.g. take a recording of a piccolo snare and make it sound like a 1970s deep thuddy snare. My customers trust me to mix their music as they know that I can do a good job. What I usually offer customers is that any changes to my mixes are free, because I should have got it right. Most of my customers don't request any changes. In this case I spent 5 hours doing some editing and mixing by myself and he was so unhappy that we have had to restart the mix from scratch and I haven't charged him for that time.
Personally I think that the issue is that he wants to create perfection out of a performance that is far from perfect. From my point of view it's a punk song that should sound like traditional British punk. The band he used are a UK Subs tribute band. The precision he wants from the live-in-a-room recording is that of a Green Day song. In my opinion you record appropriately for the sound that you are shooting for.
Occasionally I work with people and our views on what we are doing differ so greatly that it just doesn't work. This may be one of those times.
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#1496639 - 10/03/16 10:22 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: Peter Lancaster]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Maybe he doesn't understand the term "Punk Band" and how its emotion is meant to be conveyed to the listener... RAW.....
Sounds like the two of you will be glad when this project is over.
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uptildawn
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#1496644 - 10/03/16 11:12 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: uptildawn]
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Peter Lancaster
Planeteer
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 2153
Loc: Chichester, West Sussex, Unite...
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Strangely he is a life long punk. He was in a punk band in the mid-late 70s, so he should know that British punk doesn't sound like Green Day.
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#1496653 - 10/04/16 02:17 AM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: Peter Lancaster]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Either does MC5..... funny though, I never thought of them as a forerunner to punk, let alone a punk band.
They rocked the walls down though!
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uptildawn
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#1521525 - 02/28/17 10:18 AM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: uptildawn]
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Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer
Planeteer
Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1781
Loc: Munich, Germany
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I'd offer some possibilities:
Rerecord from scratch at a different studio (OK, you'D be loosing your efforts)
Rerecord his singing (hey, if he can't do it AND has his ideas of how you should the edits for free, it's ridiculous!)
Make him appropriately pay for your edits.
Tell him to do with his song, what Brian Setzer proposes to do with school in 'Rebels Rule'.
He'll probably give you a bad reputation anyway...
P.S.: you might try to add a tempo map from bass drum or so if this is half way decent playing...
P.P.S.: I really hate morons with a pseudo punk attitude! Alas loads of the old school guys behave completely establishment but think they are the last punks standing!
P.P.P.S.: OOPS - this reply MIGHT be a little late... 
Edited by Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer (02/28/17 10:20 AM)
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Ciao, aXel ------------------  imply depressed
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#1521904 - 03/02/17 03:52 AM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: uptildawn]
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HARDDRlVER
Planeteer
Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 1829
Loc: Austin TX.
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May I say something?
Who was in agreement that the song would be tracked without a click?
Should'a~could'a...going into any project, would this not be a given---(click track=$$, no click track=$$$$)
Or are punk bands so all over the place that a click track isn't feasible
Just wondr'n
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#1526303 - 04/09/17 02:51 AM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: HARDDRlVER]
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KyleCarpenter
Planeteer
Registered: 07/21/16
Posts: 491
Loc: Florida
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My 2 cents.. ( not a punker at all ) but...... Those who refuse to play to a click or say things like " You lose the feel or the grove when playing with a click or it makes it to mechanical..".. all are making excuses on there poor musicianship and lack of ability to play with a click.. I.E. like most bedroom musicians. they've never practiced the most important part of playing music.. which is ....playing in time ... If you don't want toplay to a click.. and you cant play in time and you want edits to fix Your lack of ability.. then you pay for those edits.. end of story.. I would make him pay or scrub the project.. or make him square up say heres your tracks take them to someone else... again.. just my 2 cents.....
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#1682567 - 09/27/20 01:35 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: Peter Lancaster]
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gyorpb
Planeteer
Registered: 05/11/19
Posts: 295
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The band played live in the studio without a click. […] insisted that we picked the best verse and chorus and looped them keeping the intro and outro.
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#1684217 - 10/02/20 07:51 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: gyorpb]
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gonzo
purveyor of noise
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 08/16/99
Posts: 31444
Loc: SL.UT
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#1684378 - 10/03/20 12:34 PM
Re: Editing recording not done to a click
[Re: gonzo]
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gyorpb
Planeteer
Registered: 05/11/19
Posts: 295
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Yeah, I saw that just after I posted. And then the forum wouldn’t let me delete my post. 😶
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