#1512746 - 01/07/17 09:02 AM
I would appreciate some help with gain staging
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Happy 2017 everyone!
I have been using a VS2000 since 2014 and created a great sounding album using the onboard preamps. However, with my new project I am using external preamps to add colour and this is throwing up a number of questions regarding input levels which I am hoping you folk might be able to help me with.
The VS-2000CD brochure PDF claims the unit can handle up to 26dBu (balanced) which matches the best of analogue consoles BUT I find the input channel limits/clips at -3. That equates to around +21dBu. I appreciate specs are based on ideal scenarios so can accept if the 2000 can only handle +21dBu.
Is the max input on the VS2000 around 21dBu?
I am using copies of Neve, Api and Redd47 preamps and none have output meters. I'd love to experiment with the gain on my preamps more but am finding it difficult to use my VS to figure out what levels my preamps are putting out.
Regards,
dean
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#1512751 - 01/07/17 12:33 PM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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eutak
Planeteer
Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 154
Loc: UK
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Is it actually clipping or is it that your input peak level parameter in Utility/System is set to indicate peaking at -3db (which allows a sort of safety margin)?
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#1512760 - 01/07/17 01:53 PM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: eutak]
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reddog
Planeteer
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 182
Loc: London, England
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darn --- just saw post and was about to ask same question ....
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#1512836 - 01/07/17 11:36 PM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: eutak]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Nope, it is real peaking. I dumped the wave files (takes from 2 different preamps) over to my PC and Audacity says the signal never goes higher than exactly -3. My preamps were putting out more signal than that and I was checking out how the VS digital clipping distortion sounded. I should point out that the meter on the input channel went to maximum but the meter on the channel I was sending the input to never went higher than -3 (which was confirmed by Audacity). I figure the input channels handle a max of 21dBu (balanced) and am just seeking confirmation.
BTW: I work in 16 bit but assume 4dBu (line level) would be around -20 on the VS meters?
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#1513092 - 01/09/17 01:27 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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Bobkat
Planeteer
Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 1206
Loc: St. Marys,Ontario,Canada
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Try working with 24 bit if possible,you will get a lot more head room before clipping .Optimize the gain with your outboard pres and make final small adjustments with your VS input sensitivity knob.
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#1513117 - 01/09/17 04:05 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: Bobkat]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Unfortunately 24 bit will limit me to 12 tracks on a VS2000. I am seasoned to the headroom of 16 bit, just surprised I can't get to 24dBu (0 dBFS) on input. SSL mixers can handle 26dBu. I am guessing Roland achieved that spec by using a very selective input signal. I'll Tardis back to 2004 and tell them off.
I plan to run the external preamps at line level and make up gain using the VS preamps as they are quite clean. I like smooth sounding recordings so tend to avoid driving transformers too hard. I don't find that upper mid edginess to be what I would call "warm". I find "warmth" in vintage designs that have a big bottom and smooth top but that goes away once transformer saturation appears. No wonder there are so many opinions on what "warm" means.
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#1514984 - 01/20/17 12:35 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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keeppracticing
Planeteer
Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 1250
Loc: Atlanta
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So you don't have an external ADC between your pres and VS2000?
With the price of everything used these days, I'd highly recommend getting a 2nd VS2000 unit and running both in 24 bit.
Think about something like the $300 Black Lion ADC (an old used simple one), avoid the Roland pre, just set one level on your mic pres.
Look forward to the new work, your last album was fantastic!
Cheers,
Eric
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#1517799 - 02/02/17 09:04 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: keeppracticing]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Thanks, glad you enjoyed it Eric. I haven't bothered getting an external ADC as I like the sound of the onboard preamps and use them to boost line level up to -4 DBFS.
I'll make the move to 24 bit when the new time domain tech makes its way into DAWs like cubase. Time domain is the 3rd component (along with frequency bandwidth and dynamic range) and where we will actually get an audible improvement. Until then, 16 bit forces me to focus more on gain staging which pays back come mix time.
I actually finished my first new song but when i went to back up the VS i couldn't figure out how to back up from IDE1 (where my new project sits). Project List says i have IDE1 selected but it just backs up my old songs (from IDE0). What am i doing wrong? I figure i need to change something but when i hit the USB button i don't get an option to switch partitions. Help!
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#1517805 - 02/02/17 01:01 PM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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eutak
Planeteer
Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 154
Loc: UK
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It shouldn't matter what you have selected in the project list. After USB hookup all your VS partitions should appear on your computer..but the naming of them might confuse...IDE 1 will be the second one along.
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#1518291 - 02/05/17 03:42 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: eutak]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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I am running version 2.005 and this is my Windows 7 screen but what you see are just my old songs on IDE0. Is there something i should be clicking on next?
[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/151791009@N03/shares/f59m28[/img]
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#1518293 - 02/05/17 04:07 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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eutak
Planeteer
Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 154
Loc: UK
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That looks wrong. You should have a different drive letter for each VS partition ....drives E,F,G and H (following on from your D) Weird that you have your HP recovery (D) then it jumps to G. I have to hit the sack now (London) and gig daytime tomorrow. Will get back if I think of anything.
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#1518318 - 02/05/17 11:51 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: eutak]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Drive E is my DVD burner and F is my memory card reader.
Thanks, by you stating I should have seen individual drives listed helped me guess the issue. The first thing i did after buying the VS was to replace the hard drive with a little adapter plug + compact flash card. The VS thinks its an IDE hard drive and partitions it as normal but my PC cannot see the other partitions. Heck, that is real partitioning, like folk did in the 80s to keep personal files separated if they were hosting a BBS.
Guess i'll have to export each new project / song to a CD when finished. A bit of a pain but then i have never had to reformat the card because it doesn't matter how fragmented it gets (no delay with a drive head moving around).
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#1518319 - 02/05/17 12:08 PM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: haysonics]
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eutak
Planeteer
Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 154
Loc: UK
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Ah, that explains it..good to know.
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#1519771 - 02/15/17 04:57 AM
Re: I would appreciate some help with gain staging
[Re: eutak]
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haysonics
Planeteer
Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 80
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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<post deleted as starting a new thread>
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