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#1558086 - 01/16/18 10:54 PM listening mixing mastering big topic eh
grachus Offline
Planeteer/Artist # 92
Planeteer


Registered: 01/10/00
Posts: 10873
Loc: burlington ont, canada
so I have been having issues with recording lately.
okay always
there are so many variables with levels
how do you create the levels so you know your bass level your starting point per c'est

for instance I have the levels on input mic... I have the master level ...I have the levels of my speakers monitors they have a input sensitivity level measuring from 0 to -10 dmv Yorkville ysm2P active monitors... I have the monitor level I'm listening to ..I have the headphone listening level....each of which creates a different listening environment....
on top of that I'm competing my few thousand dollar studio with the studios of others some million dollar ..ie Beatles... some a few thousand ...ie some radio stuff...
so where do I create the levels


I know pop we've had this conversation before but really lets get this down.

how the hell do I create the Level that works so my mix that sounds great on my monitors sounds great to the mp3

okay I know this is an old topic but
okay how do I know what levels are level
input
output
monitor
mp3
mix
cd
is there a app ?
okay I'm using Logic Pro now but also my vs 2000cd for my piano
so its all friggin confusing when I put the tracks together....


how do you LEVEL?
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#1558091 - 01/16/18 11:56 PM Re: listening mixing mastering big topic eh [Re: grachus]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
It sounds like you're asking how to get your final mixes hot enough to sound like the stuff you listen to, or to sound like your own mixes sound before you make a CD.

I don't know what model VS you're using and I don't know what effects cards you're using, so it's really tough to suggest what processing you might be able to use in the VS to get what you want.

Assuming that you know how to get the levels you want for recording tracks and how to maintain good levels throughout all those amplifier sections that you started on about at the beginning of your post.....

Final mixes get really HOT and punchy - after you've got the mix you know is great - through the use of compressors, limiters and normalization processing. Beyond that, can't help much without knowing what gear you're working with. Frankly, you may find that you need to move the mixes to a pc/mac computer to make use of the really powerful processing tools that can make mixes hot with much less effort and guess work than the VS tools typically have to offer...... I may be wrong, but that's just my experience.

But I've never mixed a project on a 2480 and used the version 3 effects tools, which I have always heard are great stuff. If you've got those and a 2480, then maybe you've already got what it takes to get there without breaking your back bending over far enough to make the VS do what's needed. I'm also tired right now, so I'm not dissing the VS method, just need sleep. \:\)
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2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1560732 - 02/03/18 01:45 PM Re: listening mixing mastering big topic eh [Re: uptildawn]
Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer Offline
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Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Munich, Germany
...I find that the more I arrange and mix, the hotter everything gets even without using MTK or so. OTOH, i most often mix on the 2480 and use the track compresssion quite a lot. MTK then gives a little hotter mix, but what I like is the consistency of sound that the multiband compression offers.

IMHO, trying to get stuff sound hot by using a plugin is rather useless. It will sound loud and whimpy at the same time very often. I'm afraid that the only way to get good mixes is practising...
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#1560747 - 02/03/18 02:43 PM Re: listening mixing mastering big topic eh [Re: Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
 Originally Posted By: Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer
...IMHO, trying to get stuff sound hot by using a plugin is rather useless. It will sound loud and whimpy at the same time very often. I'm afraid that the only way to get good mixes is practising...


Using a plug-in in the virtual/digital sense is really no different than using a channel strip processor, in that they are both essentially plug-ins.

The differences you site may well be legitimate and good advice and I'm sure you must have meant it in the best possible way. But to say that "trying to get things hot by using a plug-in is useless", is just not true.

It is, in fact, usually necessary, since the main goal of recording the source tracks is to get the best possible representation of the signal, with a minimal amount of processing and coloration, which necessarily results in a dynamic and tonal range that is too "large" to fit/blend in within the confines of a mix.

In order to really achieve the final "hot" mix output, it then is typically necessary to use plug-ins... whether they be part of the integrated channel strip processors, or inserted into the channel strip insert and aux points, or the final mix output channel, or all of the above.
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1587679 - 10/05/18 11:37 PM Re: listening mixing mastering big topic eh [Re: uptildawn]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 26651
Loc: carmel valley,ca
We send our stereo mixes from the VS to a DRAWMER MX 30 for compression -- then the A/D --into REAPER --- have a template & a couple of presets plugins .{ W1 LIMITER & TDR NOVA /VoS }

It's all VU numbers on mastering for us. For reference

Leaving that MASTER levels at UNITY == on just about everything ;\)


Edited by C Jo Go (10/06/18 12:14 AM)
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#1588091 - 10/10/18 01:42 AM Re: listening mixing mastering big topic eh [Re: C Jo Go]
concubinefeeder Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
To the OP:

For what it's worth, I've found trying to get things "competitively loud" is usually a losing game, unless you're sending your mixes to a professional mastering engineer who knows how to get there while maintaining some amount of musicality. Even then, there's always a tradeoff. This whole Loudness War thing is ridiculous and horribly destructive. Sadly it's shown no real signs of going away. It's a real shame, because digital recording affords us an incredible amount of dynamic range, but we're encouraged to obliterate it if we want our music to stand tall in an iTunes playlist next to big budget recordings.

Take a look at the online Dynamic Range Database if you want to be depressed. Most new releases outside of the jazz and classical realm have almost no appreciable dynamic range at all. The result is...well, it's getting difficult to call it music. I know that's what it's supposed to be, but it sounds like a whole lot of harsh, lifeless, fatiguing noise to me.

You can get things pretty much as loud as any modern commercial album if you play around with your VS recorder's built-in mastering effects. The problem is you almost always end up sacrificing dynamic range or listenability, because to get things that loud you either need a lot of compression and limiting, or you have to clip the converters. Sometimes both.

I know this because I've done it. I went through a period of feeling self-conscious about people needing to turn my albums up louder than most of the rest of their post-1995 CD collection, though no one else ever complained. So I pushed things at the mastering stage. And I got things pretty loud. It was a huge mistake. I did some real damage to the sonic integrity of the music, effectively undoing a lot of the work I put in at the recording and mixing stages.

Luckily I backed everything up. Last year I went back and remastered eight full-length albums I pushed too hard the first time around, using a much lighter touch and making everything quieter. The hilarity of doing the opposite of what every person who's ever remastered an album does wasn't lost on me. It's always about making things louder and more "current"-sounding, and here I was going the other way.

I was amazed how good some of these albums sounded once the music was allowed to breathe. It was almost like hearing the songs with brand new ears. Now I make sure to maintain a good amount of headroom while mixing and recording, and when it comes to mastering, my settings are very minimal. It's just about tightening things up a little and getting a small volume boost. The second the sound starts to get compromised I pull back. I'd rather make people turn the music up than squash the life out of it just to make it a little louder. So I guess I'm right back where I was before. Ha!

My advice, as someone who's made CDs that were both way too quiet (long ago when I knew nothing about gain staging) and way too loud (when I really should have known better): don't worry so much about getting things loud. As long as your songs don't vanish beneath your noise floor, it isn't that important. Concentrate on making things sound as good and three-dimensional as you can through recording good sounds and mixing them well. After all, we've got a volume control on every listening device ever made for a reason. If people want it louder, they can turn it up. At least they'll be rewarded with music that sounds good when they do. Nothing that's been crushed at the mastering stage will ever sound good again no matter how much you turn it down. It'll always be screaming into your ears. It'll just be a quieter scream.

I can also tell you the louder and more compressed something is, the worse it sounds on the radio. A quieter, more dynamic song will shame all the squashed songs it's competing with, because each radio station uses their own compression/limiting to keep everything at an even volume, effectively compressing your music a second time.

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