Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29763
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
You know, this is so funny, because I have played guitar for a long time, but I have never really played enough electric guitar to really care about this, about ... you know. Tone. Except to the extent that I don't want to sound crappy. I've always been more utilitarian.
It is such a bat's brew, isn't it?
I mean, the speaker cabinet, the amp, so many variables. Even the guitar ... a Tele vs a 335 vs a Strat ...
I've been listening to a lot of Robben Ford and I love that sound, wouldn't I love to be able to play like that. So of course that has led me to the millions of threads about Dumble amps, Dumble clones, Dumble pedals.
Anyhow - so those of you who are guitar players, do you have your "ultimate" amp? The amp that gets you closest to the sound that makes you most expressive, your tone? If you don't have one, what would be yours, and why?
Get as geeky as you want, but bear in mind I don't really know anything about capacitors and resistors. I'm curious, just not knowledgeable.
I'm loving the Tele I bought last year, and I recently got my ES-335 back and I so love that instrument.
What makes your tone and why?
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29763
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
And how did you figure out what your voice was? Was it through the people who inspired you, the sound of a particular record, a live show?
This is really mysterious to me.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 20154
Loc: Chicago, IL
Yes, I would say I own both my ultimate amps, on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum, for pretty different purposes.
The first “real” amp I bought was my Engl Savage 120. Given my style of playing, I needed a bit of a Swiss army amp that could cover everything from clean to crunch to face melting metal in easily footswitchable form.
I tried a ton of multi channel amps at the time, from Marshall DSL and TSL, to Hughes and Kettner Triamp, Bogner XTC, etc. I found the clean tone on the Engl to be superb, the higher gain was right up my alley and the layout of the channels and tone shaping options made a lot of sense to me and was convenient for live purposes.
I also really did love the Bogner XTC, but the price point was a bit out of my reach, being a recent college grad, and I found a used Engl Savage for about a third the cost of the Bogner.
No regrets at all, and over time I fell even more in love with the in between tones in the Engl. It came to be that if I couldn’t eek out a good tone across the whole spectrum with that amp, it certainly wasn’t the amp’s fault. I paired it up with a Mesa Boogie 4x12 with V30s in it and so I had a modern sound that was still unique compared to all the Mesa Dual Rectifiers that we’re flying off the shelves in those days.
For a time, I did get goofy with trying different tubes in that thing and eventually settled on a holy grail combination of tubes, but I was just nitpicking at that point.
A few years later, after trying one that showed up used at a GC of all places, I started jonesing for a Hiwatt. I eventually found one on eBay and took the plunge. This was to be my more vintage, one trick pony amp with the best clean tones on the planet. I intentionally chose the 50watt DR504 over the 100W version so I could at least dial in some hair without breaking the windows.
And soon after I got that amp, I made acquaintances with another guitar player and convinced him to sell me his vintage Marshall cabinet custom loaded with two different pairs of speakers...G12T-75 and G12T-60...which worked great for those clean to in between tones. The cabinet was/is pretty beat up - I was very careful bringing it home! - but it’s actually quite solid, and a perfect pairing with the hiwatt, both sonically and visually (which is important in rock n roll, ya know? )
So, for many years I had (and still have) these two very different setups, that both appeal to me greatly.
I eventually did buy a Dr. Z 2x12 cabinet...the tightest fucking 2x12 I’ve ever heard...and so at some point I will be parting with the Mesa 4x12. Whenever I get around to actually doing that, that is. I have no need for it anymore and the Dr. Z is actually a sonic improvement over the Mesa.
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Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 20154
Loc: Chicago, IL
Re: your follow up post.
I was never someone who thought, oh, I need to try to get or emulate so and so’s tone. Then again, I was never much of a cover guy, so that likely played a role here.
It was more driven by functional need (multi channel) and then I kind of would just “know it when I hear it.” Always tended to want to do my own thing and shoot for my own sense of “better,” whether that pertained to my playing, original music and/or achieving my own tones what would suit that best to my ears. My carrot has always been my future self, not somebody else.
I would say, then, as I matured as a player and started to appreciate tonal nuance more, that’s when I started getting the itch for the Hiwatt.
And that amp forced me to become a better player. There is no hiding mistakes on that thing.
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29763
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Thanks, ulank.
For years I've used desktop modelers of one kind or another for recorded sounds - first an original SansAmp, then a Johnson J-Station, but for a while now I've been micing an amplifier. It's all got me thinking, really. I like my big amp - but I don't actually use it that often. I use smaller (quieter) amps instead of the big one.
And I've started thinking maybe I should get rid of some of this stuff and get one really good amp, and keep a couple of really good guitars, and sell a bunch of my bass stuff and get one really good bass and one really good bass amp.
Of course, I actually have a very good bass and a very good (actually two very good) bass amps. But I've been thinking too about getting like ... boutique-level stuff. A Suhr bass or a Lakland American made. And get rid of all the other stuff. It becomes clutter, after a while.
OTOH ... I like having some versatility in my life.
I think I'm thinking about this in part because I'm thinking more about guitar, and I'm thinking about getting rid of stuff and getting only what I really like or really need.
Anyhow. Thanks.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
It’s a different ballgame today than it was even just 10 years ago. I wouldn’t rule out modeling and profiling amps now. In fact, given how far technology has come and how close it’s gotten to emulating tubes I can’t see or justify the cost, labor, and general expense of high priced tube amps anymore.
My guitar voice has more to do with my playing style and my guitar than the amp. I don’t know that any amp I’ve ever owned or used in particular has drastically changed the way I play. My goal is to dial in a ballpark tone or sound to fit whatever my immediate objective is within the context of the song. Don’t’ get me wrong because there are certain amps I love and that can really inspire my playing. But all in all, I think I could live with any good amp, provided it’s versatile and has reasonably good tone. My favorites tend to be Fender Hot Rod Devilles and Dr. Zs, as well as AC 30s. But, I’ve got to say I’ve been so happy with my Fender Mustang that my tube amp really doesn’t get turned on anymore. I can easily find and patch in three dream tones to switch between just within the options of the Mustang, and I realize that’s 7 YO technology now. The amp simulators of 2018 are even better, and that’s crazy because the Mustang is awesome.
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 20154
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: flatcat
Thanks, ulank.
For years I've used desktop modelers of one kind or another for recorded sounds - first an original SansAmp, then a Johnson J-Station, but for a while now I've been micing an amplifier. It's all got me thinking, really. I like my big amp - but I don't actually use it that often. I use smaller (quieter) amps instead of the big one.
And I've started thinking maybe I should get rid of some of this stuff and get one really good amp, and keep a couple of really good guitars, and sell a bunch of my bass stuff and get one really good bass and one really good bass amp.
Of course, I actually have a very good bass and a very good (actually two very good) bass amps. But I've been thinking too about getting like ... boutique-level stuff. A Suhr bass or a Lakland American made. And get rid of all the other stuff. It becomes clutter, after a while.
OTOH ... I like having some versatility in my life.
I think I'm thinking about this in part because I'm thinking more about guitar, and I'm thinking about getting rid of stuff and getting only what I really like or really need.
Anyhow. Thanks.
Word. I hear ya, flat.
While I still have more gear than I need, my mindset when I was accumulating gear was to buy it right the first time, and buy it for life. I didn't want to get into continually having to upgrade, or always trying to chase something better/different. So, I opted to buy quality gear that I knew I liked, under the notion that doing so meant I could never blame my gear for any sonic shortcomings. There are still so many ways to shape tone, and other factors that affect tone, that as long as my amps got me into a very nice ballpark, I'd still have plenty of flexibility to change things up if/when my heart ever desired to do so.
I did the same thing with my drum set. Spent a pretty penny on drums, hardware and cymbals, and it's held up awesome. Get some quality heads, spend some time tuning em up and they sound great for months at a time.
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you know, the ultimate amp, sometimes, is the one that gets you there fastest.
i own my 'ultimate' amp, my mesa boogie markIIb. for me, it gives me everything i want.
but i ENJOY so many other tones.... and they are myriad.
people say a guitarists' tone is really in his hands and fingers, and this is true.
take van halen for example.
he sounds exactly the same, whether he is playing his marshall plexi with a variac on it, thru his 4x12 cabs blazing at full volume.. as he does playing on a cheap nylon string yamaha classical guitar (ala "Spanish Fly")
i sound the same playing thru a fender twin, as my boogie at gain. same deal with a marshall.
but, the way an amp responds to what you are putting in, is the magic combo, and it's different for everybody.
thats why, once you really being the 'tone search', you are really diving into the mania that drives a true artist.
then, the choice of amps becomes more critical.
if you like a certain 'grind' to your distortion...
if you like a certain 'sag' that happens when the power transformers of a tube amp begin to really work.....
if you like a 'bell' quality to your clean rhythm chords....
or a certain compression that happens on both clean and dirty settings.....
you really need that many different amps, to hit all those targets.
now, some find a good compromise between all those different things that they like, for me, that's the boogie, in spades.
but i love the sound of a Vox AC30 with alnico blues in it.
I love the sound of a Bogner shiva driven hard and loud.
I love the sound of a Fender Deluxe set at just below blowing up.
i Love the sound of someone else playing a marshall jubilee, but never the sound of myself thru one.
LOL
right now, i'm looking at downsizing my own rig. i don't need 60 watts, i rarely play live anymore.
there are so many good lunchbox amps out there, lower wattage, with both single and dual channel setups.
IF you are thinking about a dumble clone, but do not want to drop mad dollars, i'd seriously consider this one:
i'm also considering the amp that T57strat ended up getting, partially by my recommendation, the mesa Mark 5:25, the small lunchbox version of the big boy mark V.
it's quite a bit more, but has amazing range.
i'm also sweet on these new Victory amps, that come in a lot of different flavors, but if i wanted a small marshall variant, the Sheriff 22 comes to mind: https://www.victoryamps.com/sheriff-22
a perfect small amp for covering a lot of classic tones would be the Vox AC15, in either a head or combo.
i like split rigs..... heads and cabinets.
because i have multiple cabs, i can mix and match different speaker tones and cabinet tones at will; once you are into a combo, you are stuck with the one sound, unless you change speakers out.
it's easier to carry a separate head and cab, combos are heavy.
so many killer options out there right now.
and here's something new, to melt you mind with possibilities:
TimsterTimster
Artist #'s - 130, 298, 412
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 43394
Loc: Center of the Universe
Good thread. For me, who just jams a couple times a month and like the bell like tone, the ac15 suits me just fine and takes pedals well if I need to grunge it up. Just ordered a plexi pedal to see if I can come up with some stuff that fits more in the vibe of tunages my buddy likes.
so, there's some guitars, and some effects, but the single biggest tone factor at play here, is the cabinets.
each one has a different driver in it.. the demeter iso cab has a celestion v30....
the top roland 1x12 is open backed, and has a celestion heritage G12H-55 in it....
the bottom roland 1x12 is closed back, and has a Carvin British series 75 watt driver in it....
the Avatar cab is closed back, and has a a rare celestion G12-C30 in it.....(they come out of the older jimi hendrix marshall cabs only)
for me, my solo tone, for example, is the lead channel of my boogie, set at a nice crunch, that with a compressor or boost pedal, has a nice lead tone on it's own... but when driven by my Barber Direct Drive Super Sport, starts to sound more like a marshall than a boogie, so my magic sauce for right now, is that marshall in a box pedal DDSS, paired with the smooth grind of the old vintagey boogie drive.
but the boogie cleans, sounds like a fender on steroids, so iv'e got that covered as well.
the master volume on the mesa is brilliant.
considering that this amp dates back to 1982, it's amazingly functionable.
but, if i want super sag and power tube distortion, i have a weber mass lite attenuator that i can use to drive the boogie as hard as i want, and control the volume in the studio room.
and i can mic, or capture direct, either pre or post attenuator, with a palmer pdi-09.
so many options, but so easy to dial in.
the boogie is a two channel amp, that shares the common eq section, treble bass and mids.
a better option for that boogie sound, but at more manageable volumes, is that mark v:25 i mentioned earlier.... plus, it has a cabinet emulated output, so you don't even have to mic it.
If I had a Tele and a 335, my first choice would be a Fender Princeton. Your guitars will recognize the amp as an old friend. In other words, they work well together. The Princeton also has the advantage of of only having one speaker which I prefer for recording. But you didn't say what kind of situations you are going to use it in.
That said, technology has come a long way and modern boutique amps are incredible with some amazing tones. But if are called on to get a Fender sound, you need a Fender amp or at least the Fender ap which sounds damned good to my ears.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29763
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
So funny, Gonzo, I've been reading about the Ceriatone all morning. That was definitely something to think about. People seem to like it with the external effects loop that they make. And many users are very happy with the build quality.
And, Slab, a Princeton too. I was actually thinking about stepping up to a Super, because one of my favorite sounds I've heard is a 335 through a Super.
There are a lot of great sounds out there, aren't there.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
And how did you figure out what your voice was? Was it through the people who inspired you, the sound of a particular record, a live show?
This is really mysterious to me.
I started singing in groups when I was 12 but my voice couldn't be heard. I had no idea how to project. At 15, I ran away from home and the only way I could make money was by busking. I played in San Francisco, LA, Chicago...I even played on Broadway and did great! (until the police told us to move because we were blocking the sidewalk.)
Busking is where I found my "big" voice and how to work an audience. It was my personal vaudeville. At that time I was playing a lot of blues; Leadbelly, Bessie Smith, Robert Johnson, etc. I learned how to aim my voice at a passing stranger hundreds of yards away, force them to come listen and contribute some money.
Short answer is yes I own the components of "my sound".
I think the important input I might have on your quest, may not be what you want to hear....but, it's that you have to DO. Over and over....and then you analyze in retrospect. I'll give you an example from when I was in a similar place as you are now--with those modelers, do you have a good enough memory for such that you can play "find the common thread in what has worked for you?"
Move in that direction.
Analyze.
repeat.
Find the thing that "works for you" 90% of the time. Get the best variation on that you can afford....watch it creep to 95%....the idea that one needs a vast array of guitar tones is....a form of delusion. Wait--clarify--unless you're I na cover band and duplicating recorded tones song to song IS the gig....but, I mean as an artist who plays guitar. Bullshit.
I could write a novel about mine that would start with not wanting to play electric guitar because I thought it sounded like heavy metal....I was always such an R&B loving kid....I didn't get that a lot of that is simply HOW it's played--and yes, the amps, too.
Anyway--for me, 90s classA (mostly el84) amps were the deal. I can appreciate and love other tones. But, something about the looseness and full frequency range of a classA amp with Alnico speaker....combined with a fixed bridge guitar=my rhythm tone. Which IS actually what ai really do....amazingly well. Leads, I tend to use a strat--soemthing about it's floating bridge makes it all a little more vocal, but....I'm not a great lead player. Not for lack of technique but lack of giving a shit enough to study it. I don't listen to Robben Ford, who IS a great soloist--because I don't dig his singing/songs. when he plays on the new Michael McDoanld, I'm FLOORED by his playing.
Anyway....if you took away all my stuff right now, the builder who built my custom amp is still alive--I'd see if he kept notes at all on what we did. Assuming not, I'd probably buy a PRS Paul's Guitar*, a Strymon Flint, and a Marshall Astoria Dual. That's expensive as all fuck--those three pieces. But, a Kotzen tele (with a tone cap added back) and Bassbreaker 15 head with a 2x12 cab with one Alnico Cream and one 65wt cream back would get a lot of the way there for a lot less.
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 26531
Loc: Palm Beach, Florida- U S A
Your sound is also dependent on the room you are playing in, how far you are from your amplifier, and even your sound interacting with other instruments' sound waves.
I can get an entirely different sound with my bass amp in a corner, against a wall, on a rug, on a tiled floor.
So, what sound are you looking for is not that easy.
m
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There were two areas to consider for me: live playing and in the studio. In those two areas there are a few subsets of tones requirements, directives and methods that most players might factor in: -Are you an original band that plays live? Are you a cover band that doesn't do knockoff versions, or do you do near exact versions of cover songs, like what a tribute band might? - in the studio are you writing and playing your own material towards an end goal vision of what you desire to sound like? Are you experimental in your tones and techniques? Are you playing on other people's projects?
All that stuff factors into your guitar amp decisions.
I sound like me on most amps when I'm playing the me role. I'll end up figuring out what to do with the amp and my playing to end up at a similar finish line. That's not to say that some kinds of amps aren't more fun or easier to work with.
I've done a little bit to a lot of everything; live bands cover bands, studio for me studio for others. My ears and tastes have me leaning to Fender tube combos and very little outboard effects. I'm of the philosophy that even if you're in a cover band playing lots of various songs, you don't need a lot of pedals or a multi-effects floor unit. I understand the fun and draw. I mix players that have sounded great using very little and quite a bit of processing both.
in the studio I'll either grab what is closest or experiment with something odd on purpose. Might be a Pignose, fender combo, POD
I'm currently pretty happy with my Blues Jr amp. The reverb is a bit wonky but I like the amp.
Really, I just want something small, light, loud enough and sort of saggyish . I like 6v6 and EL84 amps with a single 10 or 12". I'd like it to work all the time too
Out of the 25+ Fender guitar amps I've owned, the Princeton reverbs and these Blues Jrs have been the most satisfying. The Blackface Vibrolux was pretty damn cool too. Oh, and I do still own, and like my Peavey Classic 30
Edited by motown59 (01/23/1811:32 PM)
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"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
I also want to point out that this is the best time for tube amplifiers in my lifetime. From a $599 Bassbreaker 15 to a $3300 Astoria Dual or Divided by 13 BTR23....and a million price points in between....SOOO many nice varieties of amps.
That was NOT the case last I was shopping....thus the custom amp that is my main squeeze. And the round before that was WORSE....vintage, SUPER expensive boutiques (like Matchless) and seas of "ehh".
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 20154
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Popmann
I also want to point out that this is the best time for tube amplifiers in my lifetime. From a $599 Bassbreaker 15 to a $3300 Astoria Dual or Divided by 13 BTR23....and a million price points in between....SOOO many nice varieties of amps.
That was NOT the case last I was shopping....thus the custom amp that is my main squeeze. And the round before that was WORSE....vintage, SUPER expensive boutiques (like Matchless) and seas of "ehh".
Enjoy the quest.
I tried a couple Matchless back in the day and enjoyed them, but yeah, not for the scratch they were asking.
Those were super popular for a while there.
The guy I ended up buying the Marshall cab from had a Top Hat amp (don't recall the model) and those were quite nice.
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my first really good guitar/amp combination was a Gibson 335 and a Super Reverb amp circa 1965 - our amps had to push hard because nothing instrumental was miked back then - i still love that sound.
now, i use a Deluxe Reverb (1995 or so) in small places and my 75 Vibrolux modified to have only one 12" custom speaker - closest thing to that Super Reverb sound w/o cranking it to ear-bleed levels - i do also use a Tube Screamer for leads.
I feel like C-Jo of the guitar and amp reincarnation - i'm certainly old school, that's for sure.
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For gigging small bars and clubs, I find it easiest to use pedals to get overdrive sounds. That way, I can set up lead boosts with two or more effects with a simple true-by pass looper pedal. Since I'm the singer in a 3 piece, this really simplifies it. I set up the sounds between songs or during easy parts of the song. For this setup, I gravitate to Fender combo amps...specifically a tweed bassman reissue or a deluxe reverb. I like ceramic speakers.
For recording, I have a homemade iso-cab that my father and I built 20 years ago. I almost always use a small Marshall-style head, which has a nice tight overdrive sound. the clean channel works great with pedals. so, I basically use the overdrive channel for 60% of the time and an overdrive into the clean channel the other 40%. For recording, it's trying to find a tone that works in the mix. I just finished recording an entire CD this way. The guitar sounds are the least of my problems mixing it!
I've owned a number of amps over the years including real-deal Marshall Plexi and Major. They were much to loud to take seriously - so I grew out of that silliness when I was about 25. I liked my Peavey Classic 50 (x2) stereo rig from the 90's. One was blonde tweed, the other black tweed. Really enjoyed that setup.
I really settled into loving the super clean 59 Bassman Reissue - a great amp for pedals, IMO. Tons of volume and clean headroom if you need or want it. Doesn't really do a serious, convincing BIG "metal" thing.
But since I took ownership of my '65 Tremolux - I've really gravitated towards this amp. It's a fairly low wattage 6L6 thing that breaks up early with mega tube sag. Both my strats and my LP's sound killer through this amp. Cranked passed break-up with no pedals... it reminds me of "70's" rock tone. Like you might hear on Toys In The Attic or something like that.
I do have a serious interest in the Mesa Lonestar. I see one in my future.
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Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 10921
Loc: Clayton, California
Quote:
I also want to point out that this is the best time for tube amplifiers in my lifetime. From a $599 Bassbreaker 15 to a $3300 Astoria Dual or Divided by 13 BTR23....and a million price points in between....SOOO many nice varieties of amps.
Yeah, it's overwhelming these days. I don't know what the best move these days is anymore.
I can get that R Ford "singing tone" out of my Fender Prosonic. But it has to be pretty loud. For classic tone, I prefer the Supro Sahara. It has some mojo. But these days, I almost always use the Kemper modeler. My tube amps are neglected.
Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 5266
Loc: Wilmington DE
I’ve found, after owning many different amps, that I get closest to that “tone” in my head when I play through a fat clean amp and go into the front of the amp with one of the “amp in a box pedals.” So, my signal chain is guitar -> Bogner Red pedal -> clean channel of my Mesa Lonestar Classic. Of course, I have a delay pedal in the loop. Sometimes I may put an OD pedal in front of the Bogner Red pedal for an over the top sound.
That signal chain sounds great to me. But, having said all that, my studio rig is different. I use a Kemper straight into my DAW. It’s just so much easier and quieter to use the Kemper for recording in my tiny bedroom sized studio.
Damn dude. I got a boner for that Atomic dealio now. Watched a couple of vids including the Pete Thorn demo above. Scanned through the manual for a few minutes. That thing is f'n sweet. In a damn pedal box!!! Good grief... technology is bitchen these days.
Will I or won't I buy one right now?
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