Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I hear this from time to time. Something happens, people go "Oh, everything happens for a reason."
I don't think it's true. I think a lot of random crap happens, and then that's it, you exit stage left. It is all luck of the draw. We only have the illusion of control. Saying "everything happens for a reason" assumes some big plan - I don't think there is one.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Agreed. Things happen, humans impose some interpretation on the happenings, including the illogical sop that "Everything happens for a reason."
I do generally believe in cause and effect and I suppose one could say that the cause is the reason for the effect.
And I do think that a lot of things just happen randomly and also that we have some degree of control by our choices and decisions that we make. But then there are things totally out of control, like getting hit by a meteorite, or coming down with some disease. Sometimes I think we have a lot of influence over what happens in our lives, other times I think we do not even control whether we will take our next breath.
This sort of goes to the whole free will vs determinism debate, which has boggled greater intellects than mine.
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26863
Loc: Gaylord, MI
I’m just not sure.... but I think maybe, but maybe not.
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I mean, yes. You work at something, you get good at it. I've been lifting weights, and I can lift a LOT more weight now than I could a year (or two) ago. So yes. In that instance, what you do can determine an outcome.
But in the bigger picture ... you know. We're all pretty fucking lucky to be born in relatively safe places, with first world problems, and able to spend time goofing around on a creaky old internet forum like this one. That's ... dumb luck. You don't get to pick how you're born.
And you don't get to pick how you die either.
Hard work is not a guarantor of success. It's just hard work. Maybe you get a reward and maybe you get gaffed.
I don't know. I just heard someone say that recently and I reacted to it (on the inside) like ... what the everloving F are you talking about, everything happens for a reason?
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
There were actually five people killed. When that article was written, they didn't know about the fifth person. We confirmed he was killed the next day, after the building he was in was excavated and we found his remains.
He was an American citizen who was ... hanging out in his quarters, which happened to be just on the other side of a wall from where the bomb went off. His colleagues had asked him to dinner and he said no, and went to rest instead, because he was suffering from jet lag, having arrived in Kabul only a few days before. He was killed instantly, from what everyone could gather.
He was working for an organization that made microloans - you know, small loans of $100 or $200 to people to help them develop their small business or farm or whatever.
So here's a guy, who came here to this place, with the intention of helping people move forward with their lives, to help them get in a better situation. Been here for like three days. And he gets blown up for his trouble.
What's the reason for that?
His family was wrecked. I talked to his widow several times. My colleagues - especially one of the officers who reports to me - and his company were fantastic in dealing with this and repatriating his remains and everything.
But .. .you know? "Everything happens for a reason"?
Not here. Things don't happen for a reason here. Some death-worshiping jerk decides to kill some people and you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, that's all there is.
I've had to do condolence calls and notification calls, and they are always super difficult. But this one, for me, was one of the worst. Someone who came here to help. Someone with a family he left behind because he wanted to do something to help the Afghan people.
That one was really hard.
"Everything happens for a reason."
As if.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Bad things happen to good people. Some choose to blame satan or God. Some think things are just coincidental. Some believe that by their actions, they have an element of control.
Flat - From one of your earlier posts, I get the impression that you are where you are with enough of a sense of well being to at least live under the impression that you are doing good things which are worth the risk you're living with. I'm sure the guy who happened to be on the wrong side of the wall that day had similar thoughts.
Bottom line, we don't get to know with confidence whether things happen for a reason - and even if we did, we might not agree with the actual reason. All we can do is the best we can.
The illusion of control...and there being a plan and some sort of predestination are actually two complete different things that aren't mutually exclusive.
IMO. There's no plan...and NO we have about the "control" of a single rudder in the ocean. It ain't nothing and it ain't getting you where you want to go if all the weather/tide ducks don't line up for you. People focused on right in front of them think they have this great control because move the rudder and they veer this or that way. True. But, that little ship and that one rudder isn't going to go "wherever you want". Or close. It will go more or less with the tide. Big enough wave will capsize it--fuck your rudder.
I think the reason so many people behave self destructively is that's about the range of our control. Think about where you are--how much control do those people have in the world? So they throw gay people off buildings and blow shit up--they ABOLSUTELY have that much control of their world.
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55391
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
Seriously though—I go back and forth about this one. I’ve experienced events that fit the definition of destiny as I understand it. It’s very possible that had I turned left instead of right or won that contract that I lost or whatever, some of those events might not have occurred, or at least not the way they did. One example and of course I understand that it could be completely random:
In 2013 I moved to the coast of Mexico from San Miguel because my girlfriend at the time and I needed a change. I lived there for 2 years. The relationship fell apart in February of 2015 and I decided to return to San Miguel, with a move date of July 31.
My friend told me about Denise, who was single, but I was not at all interested. Done with love for the moment, said I.
Literally the next day, I went to the market and ran into Denise. I introduced myself and bought a brownie from her then took off.
2 days later i was playing in a jam session an hour away, and there she was in the audience. I said hi and goodbye.
4 days later I went to my friend’s house and Denise was there hanging out with his chef roommate. We laughed about it—I’d lived there for 2 years and never met her (not that big a town, either) and now in one week I had run into her three times. I said “maybe we should talk!” We chatted for a minute and it was obvious that we were enjoying it, and then I asked what her plans were for the summer.
She looked a little disappointed (or was that my imagination?) and said she was moving to a place that I’d probably never heard of called San Miguel de Allende because her mom lived there. I laughed and said I had lived there for 8 years and in fact had plans to return to the house I owned on July 31...and she told me she’d just made her arrangements to move on that same day.
We just stared at each other for a few beats. The next 30 minutes or so were wonderful. We exchanged contact info, hugged and went our separate ways.
I thought about her all night and in the morning I called to invite her to dinner. 7 hours later we met at a mutually favorite restaurant and before we even spoke I felt like I had fallen in love. We talked and drank and talked for an hour before ordering and by the time the food arrived we were holding hands. I kissed her before our first bite.
A few months later, on July 31, we drove our cars in tandem to Sma where we moved in together.
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 26529
Loc: Palm Beach, Florida- U S A
I don't believe that for one second.
You can increase the probabilty of something happening by being proactive.
My dad believed in fate. I called it probability, sometimes low, sometimes high.
When my fiancé and I met, some called it fate. We both were attending the same annaul event with mutual friends and were open to a relationship. It became what it is because of how we nurtured it and were perfectly compatable.
-m
_________________________
Can you play that an octave louder?
when you go all depressed and sad its one thing when you die its life when good things happen your lucky when bad your unlucky. luck is life reason is for math life is a confusion
#1605037 - 03/11/1904:07 PMRe: Do you think everything happens for a reason?
[Re: moontan]
MooseboyMooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
Yes, everything happens for a reason, even free will. The problem with understanding WHY it happens for a reason, is, for most instances, a matter of scale.
Maybe you're too zoomed in to see the reason. Maybe you're too zoomed out.
In any event, the best way to view things imho is from a Holistic Reductionist point.
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
It's unclear to me if it's even logical or useful to try to answer the question: "Do you think everything happens for a reason?" Or put another way: Is there some order or specific meaning to life's experiences and/or events?
It doesn't seem in any logical or practical way that I can control whether or not that driver runs that red light at that particular moment and kills my family.
But what I do know - with certainty - is that every single experience - no matter how "good" or "bad" - is an opportunity for us to define ourselves and our experience in relation to that event. In other words - we get to form our own idea or opinion about what that event means, and who we are in relation to that event now that it has happened.
Some people lose their ability to walk (or hear, or see, or whatever), become depressed and perhaps live a life of misery, self pity, and maybe even eventually take there own lives.
Another may see the same event as cause to be come a better version of themselves relative to who they were before the event changed their life. We see this all the time. Everyday, all around us.
Seems to me that we all have that ability to give the meaning to an experience or event.... that we choose. We can't always prevent a thing from happening - but we DO have a choice to define what that means to us once it has happened.
That's kinda powerful - in my view.
_________________________
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."
We've all had all kinds of experiences. Really good, really bad - and every step in between.
But when I look at the so called "worst" experiences of my life - I wouldn't trade them for anything - now that I see the decisions I made relative to those past experiences. I wouldn't give that experience away for *anything*. They have helped me define who I am. Who I want to be.
Perhaps... just maybe... this particular person that was killed in Kabul.... Maybe this person has a son, or daughter, or mother, or father - that will be forever changed by their loved one's death. Perhaps for the better - maybe for the worse. Maybe it won't have any effect on them at all. But, whether they know it or not, it is up to them - what that event means to them. Same as it is with you, Tom.
_________________________
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."
#1605047 - 03/11/1905:33 PMRe: Do you think everything happens for a reason?
[Re: Webster]
MooseboyMooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
Originally Posted By: Webster
Maybe this person has a son, or daughter, or mother, or father - that will be forever changed by their loved one's death. Perhaps for the better - maybe for the worse.
This is a perfect example of a matter of scale. While on the immediate scale (and the one that I personally see, too) this is a tragedy, on a wider/longer scale this might make a huge change in a loved one's life that goes on to affect hundreds or thousands of lives for the better.
All a matter of scale… both in terms of size and time.
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
It's interesting to me from a philosophical viewpoint that we can now digitally break things down to a one or a zero. Programming is beyond my comprehension but I can do simple computer tasks. Is the universe a big computer program?
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mooseboy
What a great story, Doug! And, apropos of absolutely nothing except her name, I present the following:
I love that band so much.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
To answer your questions regarding “does everything happen for a reason” you really have to contemplate the meaning of life in general. Sure, as humans living in this three dimensional “reality” we have an inherent penchant for finding order and patterns, even when that order or those patterns isn’t necessarily by design. So, just because we see it doesn't mean it's there, and then again, just because we don't see it doesn’t mean it’s not there. In other words, everything may happen for a reason, but we’re not in a position to understand that reason.
i do not believe there is any "reason" to what happens when you refer to random occurrences.
when i hear people say, "thank god our kid is safe" all i can think about is why didn't you blame god when your kid was unsafe.
on a tangential topic, i also don't understand "spirituality" - seems like god w/o god - sort of an anarchy of need for essence.
i just reread that and it doesn't make sense like it did when i thought of it.
in the words of an old songwriting buddy,
Hurry, ya lose what ya got. Worry, ya mind's gonna rot. Take it easy your day's gonna come boy.
You need not understand. You just need be. This is your birth right, brother. We are all more than the sum of this avatar we call a human body. There are things we understand and things we know. We should always delineate the difference. We are all here for a reason, and if we will allow ourselves to be still and quiet and honest with ourselves, at a very fundamental level, we all know this to be “true.”
sorry - just chemicals that get reconfigured due to DNA and sensory input from my standpoint - i certainly don't understand how remixing compounds in my brain allows me to think, see, hear, feel, remember, judge, etc but i know they work - other than that i think i've finally realized that hoping to understand anything that humans do is beyond my capabilities.
_________________________
Send two dozen roses to Room 424 and put "Emily, I love you" on the back of the bill. Groucho Marx
sorry - just chemicals that get reconfigured due to DNA and sensory input from my standpoint - i certainly don't understand how remixing compounds in my brain allows me to think, see, hear, feel, remember, judge, etc but i know they work - other than that i think i've finally realized that hoping to understand anything that humans do is beyond my capabilities.
Humans don’t understand what humans do because if they did they wouldn’t do those things.
You mentioned DNA. What is DNA but a genetic coding? That’s a code, brother! Everything around us is coded, right down to the universe itself, which is all made up of binary code (0s and 1s). We embody consciousness trapped in a matrix. We have free will but likely only within the parameters of the fixed universe or matrix, as it were (i.e., we’re free agents in a deterministic universe).
The whys the hows, etc…I have no idea….but I know it has something to do with our consciousness…that much I figured out….did we agree to come here or were we sent here on a mission?....I don’t know…I do know there is something innate in all of us, like an internal beacon, that will guide us IF we listen to it, allow it to resonate, and don’t allow the world to snuff it out…..some call it a sixth sense…some intuition….we all have it…it’s one puzzle piece….
But in the bigger picture ... you know. We're all pretty fucking lucky to be born in relatively safe places, with first world problems, and able to spend time goofing around on a creaky old internet forum like this one. That's ... dumb luck. You don't get to pick how you're born.
And you don't get to pick how you die either.
Hard work is not a guarantor of success. It's just hard work. Maybe you get a reward and maybe you get gaffed.
You mentioned DNA. What is DNA but a genetic coding? That’s a code, brother! / The whys the hows, etc…I have no idea….but I know it has something to do with our consciousness…
What genes do is code for protein synthesis. DNA itself is made up of nucleotides, each of which contains a phosphate group, a sugar group and a nitrogen base. The phosphate and sugar groups make up the backbone structure of the double helix. The four nitrogen bases are adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). A always and only pairs with T, and G only pairs with C. To understand the whys and hows, one needs to understand chemistry and chemical bonding.
None of this means there is a reason, only that this is the way things are. Carbon is the basis of organic life because of its electron orbitals and bonding properties, which include covalent bonds, single bonds, double bonds, triple bonds. Carbon can form long and strong chains, which is why we are carbon-based organisms.
So is the reason for our existence the nature and properties of carbon? What is the reason for carbon having the properties it does? It just is. The human mind looks for reason where none exist. Everything basically comes down to chemistry and physics, whose laws we did not write, and which are just the nature of material reality.
You mentioned DNA. What is DNA but a genetic coding? That’s a code, brother! / The whys the hows, etc…I have no idea….but I know it has something to do with our consciousness…
What genes do is code for protein synthesis. DNA itself is made up of nucleotides, each of which contains a phosphate group, a sugar group and a nitrogen base. The phosphate and sugar groups make up the backbone structure of the double helix. The four nitrogen bases are adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). A always and only pairs with T, and G only pairs with C. To understand the whys and hows, one needs to understand chemistry and chemical bonding.
None of this means there is a reason, only that this is the way things are. Carbon is the basis of organic life because of its electron orbitals and bonding properties, which include covalent bonds, single bonds, double bonds, triple bonds. Carbon can form long and strong chains, which is why we are carbon-based organisms.
So is the reason for our existence the nature and properties of carbon? What is the reason for carbon having the properties it does? It just is. The human mind looks for reason where none exist. Everything basically comes down to chemistry and physics, whose laws we did not write, and which are just the nature of material reality.
Ha ha, I saw what you did there...."google"....
Anyway, no...none of this "means" or "doesn't mean." No single factor proves or disproves anything, nor can one prove a negative....
Everything in this physical universe is a composite of chemical compounds and constructs, and everything within the physical universe serves a purpose and therefore has a reason to exist..….DNA is no different, but while you identified the chemical makeup of the code or transmitter, you forgot to mention what DNA does or what its purpose is. DNA serves as a genetic code for a set of rules by which information encoded in genetic material (DNA or RNA sequences) is translated into proteins (amino acid sequences) by living cells. For example, in humans, protein synthesis in mitochondria relies on a genetic code that varies from the canonical code. And the point being, it’s a code that’s encoded for a reason. If it wasn’t encoded then we would cease to exist.
Also, keep in mind the human genome contains around 20,000 genes, which are the stretches of DNA that encode proteins. But these genes account for approximately 1.2 % of the total genome. The other 98.8 percent is known as noncoding DNA. In other words, we have no idea what 98.8% of DNA is or what its purpose is. My spidey sense tell me—and I’d bet dollars to donuts this is true if I could somehow prove it—that "junk DNA: is not just there to look pretty Just because we haven't figured it out yet doesn't mean it's not important and doesn't serve a very real and profound purpose…....it does!....
And then there's this....
Don’t mistrust the patterns you’re seeing because you’re seeing them…...Just because it should be obvious doesn’t mean it’s not!.....
Well, no, Gretsch, actually I took a lot of Biology, Genetics, Chemistry, etc., Organic Chem almost did me in. And one thing that struck me is how much of what is results from the nature of the elements, the types of bonds available as a result of the configuration of the electron shells of the elements. No need for gods when chemistry and physics explain reality.
When you look at abiogenesis --- how life arose from non-living elements, it is clear that it is a matter of chemistry. No reason, just the way things are. That life would arise from non-living matter was essentially inevitable given the nature of matter and the elements. So, nothing supernatural, nothing that would give a reason, things are as they are because of the nature of chemistry, the elements and physical reality.
And actually, the question that I find really intriguing is not how life arose from the elements, but how did consciousness arise? Big mystery, not apparently explainable by chemical and physical laws.
Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 11748
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Boeing's AI has crashed two 737 MAX in the last couple months.
Yes, there is a reason. Bad/faulty design of hardware/software, the inability to quickly override the automation, and lack of training for the operators of the aircraft on how to handle this condition where the plane keeps forcing the nose down under takeoff scenarios.
"lack of training for the operators of the aircraft on how to handle this condition where the plane keeps forcing the nose down under takeoff scenarios."
-- NOT -- there is all new tech in those ships... they are fighting the machine ..
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55391
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
Let's look through a different filter. Do you think all coincidences are random, or that some are meant to be just as they happened? If it weren't for our perspective about them, are they just...things that happened?
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I like this distinction between cause and reason. Events cause other events. Reason is ... well, attempting to find a reason for what happened.
Something caused that crash and those poor people to be killed. But was there a reason for it, a higher purpose, to fill some ... necessary precondition for something else?
No, I think it's just random. I didn't used to - I used to think that there was a reason. But I don't any more.
I mean, this is actually in the Bible, isn't it? Job was just a dude and God jacked him to make sure he was sufficiently servile. For what reason? No reason. I mean, God bored? Insecure? Because He could?
Random.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55391
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
I really can't say how I feel about this. Part of me is a non-believer in all things such as destiny. Another part of me feels like I was put on this earth for a reason, and that inspires me to do my best in every aspect of my life that I can control.
In the end, we can't know for sure. We adopt the perspective that helps us get through the day with the greatest chance of happiness, I suppose.
Yes, there is a reason. Bad/faulty design of hardware/software, the inability to quickly override the automation, and lack of training for the operators of the aircraft on how to handle this condition where the plane keeps forcing the nose down under takeoff scenarios.
You are describing causes, the effect of which was the crash.
Cause and reason are not the same thing.
Causes are that which results in an effect, and from which effect one can trace back to a cause. Think, perhaps, of a billiards table. Hitting the cue ball causes it to move. The cue ball hitting another ball causes it to move. But for reason do the balls move, for what reason does one choose to strike the cue ball with a cue stick? No reason, really, no grand design, a random choice by a humanoid.
And what flatcat said. Basically, a cause can be determined (and definitively so) simply by tracing back from the effect. But a reason cannot be generally be discerned, in large part because none exist.
People die. Horrid diseases occur. Planes go down. Stray bullets strike and kill 3-year-olds. Some bozo wins $300 million in a lottery. A drunk crosses the centerline and kills a family. There are no reasons.
This can be more succinctly expressed as Skywave's First Law of Physical Reality: Shit happens. And the corollary: It just does.
- - - - - - - -
Fish gotta swim Birds gotta fly People gotta sit and wonder why why why . . .
It requires an extreme tunnel vision perspective to solely focus on the machinery and its complex moving parts without questioning the purpose or origin of said machinery or the intent and purpose behind it. We are incredibly complex biological life forms or biological machines, if you will. To simply stop at the chemical or biological makeup or component of our anthropogeny and claim “that is all there is to it” without addressing our epistemological or spiritual natures is tantamount to deductively describing a jet propulsion engine as a “really loud and heavy mechanism that serves no purpose.” Something animates it, and there’s an intent and purpose behind it. Biology is part of it. Chemistry and physics are also part of the equation, and so is consciousness and spirituality. I would contend they’re not separate but part of the same ball of wax. Our better and current understanding of the former does not any way reduce the significance of the latter. In time, if we are to survive as a species, we will come to better understand these things and their intricate connections. I believe at one time humanity did actually have a much better understanding of this and our place on this Earth, as we lived more harmoniously with nature.
But I love science; so, let's beat the chemistry horse to death, so-to-speak. Many modern scientists contend that pure undirected chemistry alone does not adequately explain cells containing such a complex code and such intricate chemistry. No matter how chemicals are mixed, they do not create DNA spirals or any intelligent code whatsoever. Only DNA reproduces DNA. To that point, it has been estimated by scientists that there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000power that life could have originated by random trials (Fred Hoyle and N.Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space). Again, that's 10 to the 40,000power or a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it. Many other modern physicists and scientists have arrived at similar conclusions, with even more astronomically giant odds against life being a result of randomness.
Look at it from this perspective: We live in a solar system of a galaxy that is relatively stable, on a planet that sits in the Goldilocks zone of a star. That in and of itself is extraordinarily rare and unique. The odds against humanity as a species ever existing via evolution are astronomically low. The odds against any one of us ever being born are astronomically low. In fact, physicists and scientists have run the numbers on the statistical odds that any of this is random, and from a mathematical standpoint, it’s virtually impossible that all of these factors, from the largest scale to the molecular and subatomic levels, all lined up to produce the material universe we “happen” to inhabit.
Is there chaos and randomness in the world or this material universe? Yes! I believe there is. I think it’s part of the yin/yang contrast nature of our universe. In order for there to be an “up” we must first have a reference for “down.” In order for us to know “evil” we must know what is “good.” And in order for us to know “order” we must also recognize “randomness.” Yet, that push/pull, yin/yang conflict and balance itself is a natural principle by design.
Coincidences definitely occur in life, but I also believe there’s, at times, purpose or some higher reason to serendipity, and I certainly do believe in the bigger scheme of things there’s purpose and meaning to all this. Yet, each case represents its own event or circumstance, and its individual significance or lack thereof can only be determined by that individual’s self or intuition. This is where the consciousness comes into play. On a personal level, you know if something that’s happening in your life is a product of mere chance or if there’s something more involved. You know because the ability to know resides in you. You need not share it or have it affirmed nor denied by anyone else because that event or circumstance belongs to you and you alone.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I think we have an amazing ability to rationalize and justify, including the fact of our existence.
I don't agree, Chris. The universe is vast, and time is long. It was thought no two snowflakes are alike, and this is wrong. In the same way, given the nearly limitless size and scope of the universe, it appears likely to me that this is not the only happy accident resulting in sentient life that has ever existed, or will ever exist.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's just ... totally random. Doesn't make sense. There is no plan, no higher existence, nothing more. Just a little flicker in the darkness for a brief moment, then nothing else. We vanish. It's the natural order of things and there isn't any higher meaning than that.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
The best plan is to be part of something larger than yourself. I believe we are all called to serve; not as a religious concept but as a means of survival of the species.
William O Douglas was asked how he wanted to be remembered and he said "I want to be forgotten." There's a Sierra Club member for ya! In some cultures, being remembered was usually not a good thing.
I think we have an amazing ability to rationalize and justify, including the fact of our existence.
I would submit to you this observation of that ability is by design, and that ingrained penchant may just as well exist for a reason.
Quote:
I don't agree, Chris.
That's okay, Tom. This is what makes spending time at places like this worthwhile. It’s what keeps us sharp and on our toes. I would just challenge you to allow yourself some room for open mindedness. Just realize that you’re a 50 something YO living on a planet that’s billions of years old in a universe that, for all intents and purposes from a human perspective, is infinite and older than we can comprehend. None of us understand “shit” in comparison to the big scheme of things. We’re not supposed to understand. That’s ultimately not our plight or mission here. It’s the attempt or journey that’s important.
Quote:
The universe is vast, and time is long. It was thought no two snowflakes are alike, and this is wrong. In the same way, given the nearly limitless size and scope of the universe, it appears likely to me that this is not the only happy accident resulting in sentient life that has ever existed, or will ever exist.
One could just as easily point to your point as evidence for the awesome and intentional nature of our universe. Again, look at the statistics and the video I posted. The point is the very facts you point to could be evidential of some sort of intelligent design or what Plato referred to as “a Prime Mover.”
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The more I think about it, the more I think it's just ... totally random. Doesn't make sense. There is no plan, no higher existence, nothing more. Just a little flicker in the darkness for a brief moment, then nothing else. We vanish. It's the natural order of things and there isn't any higher meaning than that.
You mean, you can’t understand the meaning of life given our incredibly limited understanding of our universe or how any of this works? Wow, get in line, my friend. If anyone tells you they have it all figured out, don’t’ walk, run. In fact, throw pie at them, and run. I’ll even join in. At most, you, I, and any honest and reasonably intelligent human being that’s seriously contemplating this existential dilemma, have a few “random” puzzle pieces. We are nowhere close to having the entire puzzle, let alone the ability to see the “big picture.” Your understanding or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. I would also posit there’s a difference between “understanding,” which is limited to the ability of our cranial cortex to understand such things, and “knowing,” which is tied to that which is metaphysical (i.e., consciousness).
Like I said before, that consciousness is the very essence of who we are, and that “knowing” is part of your birth right. It has nothing to do with institutional religion, and anyone can learn how to tap into it. It is just as real and just as accessible as anything in the physical realm. Science is beginning to merge in this direction, and in fact, prior to the Einstein paradigm, scientists around the world were fascinated and committed to this very subject matter. We don’t understand it in the same way we understand chemistry, anatomy, certain aspects of physics, etc., but it’s all related. Science and our understanding of it is in a continuous state of flux, and we are beginning to understand consciousness more so than in previous years. At some point, I predict, there will be a much more common understanding of this, and yes, it also dovetails with AI because that is what has largely driven the research into consciousness for the past few decades.
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55391
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
"Just realize that you’re a 50 something YO living on a planet that’s billions of years old in a universe that, for all intents and purposes from a human perspective, is infinite and older than we can comprehend."
There are two faulty human-centric concepts in here--the first is that just because we don't know how our universe started or will end means it is 'infinite.' Our understanding or lack of facts at any given time doesn't really affect the reality, only our reaction to the reality. The other is that if we can comprehend something that is a trillion years old, but we suspect something else is even older, that we really can't comprehend it. I think most of us know that there are things higher than the largest number we were taught, even if we don't know what comes after a million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, sextillion, septillion, octillion, nonillion, and decillion.
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 18011
Loc: The West Coast of Florida
Originally Posted By: Wish
Boeing's AI has crashed two 737 MAX in the last couple months.
Yes, there is a reason. Bad/faulty design of hardware/software, the inability to quickly override the automation, and lack of training for the operators of the aircraft on how to handle this condition where the plane keeps forcing the nose down under takeoff scenarios.
Bad faulty design? Inability to quickly override? Lack of training?
Hmmmmm.... 1 of these things is not like the other(2).
And the notion that the "plane forces the nose down during takeoff" leaves the reader without a few Germaine facts.
The physics of the airfoil requires a goldilocks zone of its own between thrust and angle of attack. Too shallow and climb is curtailed, too steep and lift is curtailed.
If angle of attack is inhibited , the presence of a corn silo off the end of the runway would cause sudden flight failure account blunt force trauma
If angle of attack exceeds available thrust, laws of physics cause a "stall", the resulting flight failure makes the aircraft fall in an uncontrollable manner resulting in blunt force trauma with the ground.
You now have approximately 1 hour of ground school training.
The maxx8 has flown without incidents in the USA for a few years. Thousands of flights.
The maxx8 uses engines of greater thrust than previous 737 iterations.
The maxx8 engine placement has been moved forward on the wing to help compensate for the additional thrust on an otherwise (more or less) unmodified airframe.
The thrust of the engine in its new location results in different angle of attack, different climb rate, different airspeed, and different autopilot adjustment than previous 737 iterations.
One of the characteristics of the new layout is that thrust gradually forces a steeper angle of climb, and the compensation by the autopilot is to....
Wait for it.....
"force the nose down(sic) "
Assuming you read and understood the Cliffs notes hour of ground school, you'll agree that forcing the nose down is not unwanted or even unusual. It's a completely natural and appropriate force to be applied along with thrust to preserve the goldilocks zone of flight.
The crashes in my snooty know-it-all opinion formed along a 32 year career in the aerospace industry (air traffic control) are pilot error account insufficient training.
"inability to quickly override" is simply incorrect. Matter of fact, the alacrity with which pilots can (and apparently did) override AP was likely an accelerant to the catastrophes.
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Liberty is inversely proportional to government. http://www.bobminer.net Da Bears Bob Miner
There are two faulty human-centric concepts in here--the first is that just because we don't know how our universe started or will end means it is 'infinite.' Our understanding or lack of facts at any given time doesn't really affect the reality, only our reaction to the reality.
That’s 100% correct IME. This has essentially been a big part of my premise. Our understanding of these matters changes constantly. What’s considered “true” today will inevitably change tomorrow. We know this because history proves it so, and we are experiencing it at exponentially greater rates than ever before in real time.
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The other is that if we can comprehend something that is a trillion years old, but we suspect something else is even older, that we really can't comprehend it. I think most of us know that there are things higher than the largest number we were taught, even if we don't know what comes after a million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, sextillion, septillion, octillion, nonillion, and decillion.
I’m not completely sure I follow your train of thought here. Read the statement again.
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Just realize that you’re a 50 something YO living on a planet that’s billions of years old in a universe that, for all intents and purposes from a human perspective, is infinite and older than we can comprehend."
This is not a proclamation as to the nature of the universe—whether it’s infinite or has boundaries—nor is it an assumption of anyone individual’s ability to comprehend zeros ones, or decimals. The term “for all intents and purposes” was intentionally used merely to provide perspective--that the vastness of said universe is so great we have no human reference point by which to compare its vastness in order to understand it at the cognitive level.
It’s not a rabbit hole I intended to go down, but let’s touch on it. The universe is old….older than we can currently date…..and as soon as some group of physicists thinks they have a roundabout approximate figure some other group of physicists contradicts that claim…. Anyway, we can all agree the universe is old…older than Earth…older than our solar system….older than our galaxy even….just old because “old” is the only reference we have to describe it…
The average lifespan of a human is maybe 75-80 years in our current time. In our lifespan alone just think about how much has changed and how much our concepts of science, cosmology, physics, anthropology, etc. has changed. No one in any given lifespan is going to understand or figure this all out.
But consciousness may be the key here because, like energy (it is a type of energy) it can neither be created nor destroyed. What if part of that 90% DNA structure that scientists currently know little to nothing about has millions of years of data encoded in it and all we have to do is figure out how to unlock it for a data upload, of sorts? Anyway, consciousness is collective and not limited to any single life span. In theory, it may be able to collect mass amounts of information over enumerable life cycles, which may be encoded in our DNA. That would mean that possibly, at some point, we as a species could understand the universe or at least understand it quantum leaps better than we currently do.
And just for fun, throw in String Theory and the multiverse model. Last I checked physicists had identified at least 13 different dimensions, each possibly having their own multiverse complex. Like I said, it’s a rabbit hole. I love this stuff; so, don’t get me started……I’ll be here all damn day, and I don’t have that kind of time anymore…..:)
But consciousness may be the key here because, like energy (it is a type of energy) it can neither be created nor destroyed.
Huh? This makes no sense. If you have ever seen anyone in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's Disease, or someone who has suffered a severe traumatic brain injury, you could not conclude that consciousness cannot be destroyed. Brain injury and neurodegenerative disease destroys consciousness. What do you think happens when a brain-injured person is in a deep coma and the sensors can detect no brain activity? Absolutely, consciousness can be destroyed.
But consciousness may be the key here because, like energy (it is a type of energy) it can neither be created nor destroyed.
Huh? This makes no sense. If you have ever seen anyone in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's Disease, or someone who has suffered a severe traumatic brain injury, you could not conclude that consciousness cannot be destroyed. Brain injury and neurodegenerative disease destroys consciousness. What do you think happens when a brain-injured person is in a deep coma and the sensors can detect no brain activity? Absolutely, consciousness can be destroyed.
you want to hone in and focus solely on the chemistry aspect of what is essentially philosophical existentialism, but at the same time you don't understand the difference between a degenerative disease that affects human cognitive ability and Consciousness itself. Yes, I have seen and suffered through that heartache first hand. In fact, without getting anecdotal, that experience is actually one of the many that steer me in this direction. Do you want to go there? I'll be happy to share.
No, Gretsch, don't need the story. All I am saying is that consciousness can indeed be destroyed. I have seen it first-hand, from neurodegenerative disease and from traumatic brain injury. The mind goes away. The brain is an essential to consciousness and when the brain is damaged or destroyed, so is consciousness.
Also, think Brownian motion. Ah, the beautiful randomness of it all.
Yes everything happens for a reason, and perhaps more exactly, many reasons. When you're walking try to not step into your footprint.
However, to suggest that everything that happens, or even something that happens, is preordained amounts to magical thinking. The closest we can get to predicting the future requires planning and setting up of circumstances that would provide a greater likelihood of a particular outcome than any other outcome. Conversely, leaving things to fate is pretty much giving up one's active role in one's future. Unless you consider capitulation to be an omissive form of active participation.
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"On religion, the common man finds it to be true, the wise man finds it foolish, and the wealthy man finds it useful." -Seneca The Younger ~76AD
No, Gretsch, don't need the story. All I am saying is that consciousness can indeed be destroyed. I have seen it first-hand, from neurodegenerative disease and from traumatic brain injury. The mind goes away. The brain is an essential to consciousness and when the brain is damaged or destroyed, so is consciousness.
Also, think Brownian motion. Ah, the beautiful randomness of it all.
You have a penchant for fashioning yourself an expert on everything, diminishing others’ experiences and knowledge, and letting everyone here—and I suspect around you in general—know how wrong they are and how your view on any given subject is what matters because, again, you’re a resident expert on any given subject at hand. Ever wonder why people here often react to you the way they do? …I doubt you do, but you should….It smacks of Narcissistic Disorder or some similar variant….But I’ll digress, and simply reiterate your experiences do not supersede my own, mam. I hold every bit the academic and professional credentials you claim to possess—albeit in a different field—and I’ve lived 45 years on this Earth, having and owning my own experiences—experiences which include dealing with loved ones/close family members who passed on due to Alzheimers and cancer that eventually lead to loss in cognitive and neurological functions. So, while you are so quick to arrogantly dismiss my perspective, do keep in mind the only thing that doesn’t really matter to me at this point is, in fact, your myopic opinion.
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the brain is an essential to consciousness and when the brain is damaged or destroyed, so is consciousness.
The brain is an organ in the body. The body is a vessel of consciousness. The brain, IME, can be viewed sort of like a transmission for that consciousness. It is not consciousness itself. Consciousness is that which animates us, and that which animates us is the antecedent to our physical selves.
Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary defines consciousness as, “the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself.”
By your definition of consciousness a pig, a roach, a rat, etc. all have consciousness because they have some sort of cerebral cortex, but human beings are the ONLY lifeform identified on Earth that actively contemplates its own existence, mortality, the meaning of life, etc….why?....and if it’s all random chance and just cellular evolution randomly forming out of prehistoric ponds, then why don’t we see monkeys and chimps building rockets and pigs writing best sellers?......That doesn’t happen because the premise isn’t true…..The fact is we have that unique capability as a species due to consciousness, and consciousness was given to us for a reason (i.e. a purpose).
The fact that you fallaciously equivocate the brain with consciousness itself, and fundamentally misunderstand their relationship to one another, tells me you lack the requisite knowledge and understanding to properly contribute anything substantively productive to this conversation.
new theories have proposed that the universe evolves, just like everything else. it gives birth to baby universes that themselves evolve through cosmic natural selection. thus, it would explain why the universe seems to be so finely tuned for the emergence of life. by creating more life for itself, the universe create more life for the things inside it.
why would the universe be different that everything it contains? as above, so below....
one could also invoke string theories and its multiverses to explain the fine tuning, but that has fallen out of favors recently.
#1605473 - 03/14/1903:33 PMRe: Do you think everything happens for a reason?
[Re: moontan]
MooseboyMooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
NOT theories, moonie. Hypotheses.
You DO know the difference, don't you?
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a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors. A theory is always backed by evidence; a hypothesis is only a suggested possible outcome, and is testable and falsifiable. ... Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them.
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"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
hy·poth·e·sis /hīˈpäTHəsəs/Submit noun a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
Yes everything happens for a reason, and perhaps more exactly, many reasons. When you're walking try to not step into your footprint.
However, to suggest that everything that happens, or even something that happens, is preordained amounts to magical thinking. The closest we can get to predicting the future requires planning and setting up of circumstances that would provide a greater likelihood of a particular outcome than any other outcome. Conversely, leaving things to fate is pretty much giving up one's active role in one's future. Unless you consider capitulation to be an omissive form of active participation.
Doofie, I think from a human perspective we tend to think in dualities. Our modus operandi seems to be one of either/or, all or nothing propositions, when in fact the answer may be “both.” That can be a hard concept for us to wrap our brains around, but it doesn’t make it any less viable a concept.
So, your points regarding “leaving things to fate” are completely valid. I would just posit that in the same guiding principles I mentioned in previous comments above, regarding the yin/yang, push/pull, positive/negative dualities that regulate our universe, apply here as well. We can have both order and disorder, and there can be both free will and fate. On the surface, those notions may appear mutually exclusive, but IME, it just means there are fixed principles in this physical universe or at least seemingly fixed…..of course, if you get into some of the new laws of quantum physics those principles are shot straight to hell…..anyway, we are all afforded free will to operate within the limitations of those principles……we are free agents operating in an otherwise deterministic universe…..so, the answer may be C (both)…….just a possibility that I don’t see anyone else considering or offering….
The Earth is electrical. The universe is frequency. The spiritual realm is vibration…….think about it!
BTW, I have no personal problem with the notion that when we die that’s it!....we become one with the dirt and eventually return to stardust……there’s a certain comfort to that….that notion really doesn’t bother me…..However, that notion simply doesn’t hold “true” to weight of philosophical scrutiny or that of my own individual experiences, and that is why I’ve landed on this current position….
#1605494 - 03/14/1904:48 PMRe: Do you think everything happens for a reason?
[Re: Memphis Monroe]
MooseboyMooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
Originally Posted By: Gretsch 6120
…..of course, if you get into some of the new laws of quantum physics those principles are shot straight to hell…..
Exactly the point I was making earlier, except that I was adding in that chaos theory, which operates on much larger scales, also balances into the mix.
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"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
…..of course, if you get into some of the new laws of quantum physics those principles are shot straight to hell…..
Exactly the point I was making earlier, except that I was adding in that chaos theory, which operates on much larger scales, also balances into the mix.
Yep, and like most people, I understand yet don't understand quantum theories and mechanics. It’s fun to try though….
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Gretsch 6120
By your definition of consciousness a pig, a roach, a rat, etc. all have consciousness because they have some sort of cerebral cortex, but human beings are the ONLY lifeform identified on Earth that actively contemplates its own existence, mortality, the meaning of life, etc….why?....and if it’s all random chance and just cellular evolution randomly forming out of prehistoric ponds, then why don’t we see monkeys and chimps building rockets and pigs writing best sellers?......That doesn’t happen because the premise isn’t true…..The fact is we have that unique capability as a species due to consciousness, and consciousness was given to us for a reason (i.e. a purpose).
Actually, there's an emerging body of evidence about the inner lives of many animals suggesting that they have feelings, and in some cases are self aware. What we have are opposable thumbs, and that has helped carry us away from the same state as many animals to building rockets and best sellers.
I don't think that's a terribly good argument.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
You have a penchant for fashioning yourself an expert on everything, diminishing others’ experiences and knowledge . . . It smacks of Narcissistic Disorder or some similar variant
Well, that's so ugly of you, to attack the person rather than the argument. So, I got a good education, big deal. Your ad hominem attack is a sign that you are not confident about your intellectual position.
I don't need to make you write about your Alzheimer's experience, it will not add to the discussion. Most of us have experience with what happens to people with neurodegenerative diseases.
The brain and consciousness are not the same, but higher consciousness arises from the brain and the nervous system. I have seen no evidence of consciousness, other than perhaps a primitive somatic consciousness, in the absence of brain.
Brownian motion --- that is the random universe in which we exist.
You disagree and take some mystical religious esoteric view. So what?
Yeah - I tend to agree. That, perhaps, there are levels... or better put, degrees of "consciousness".
There is speculation that what caused homo sapiens to really break off from the pack and develop to our current intelligence and consciousness level/ability was the onset of advanced communication - verbal language, more specifically - and subsequently, imagination. This is the point that we started to cooperate in much larger numbers and move away from our "animal" state and towards the more advanced, developed creatures (and civilization) that we are today. This, I believe (for now) was a *jump*.... a leap.... in our evolution. We crossed over into a higher level of consciousness at this point. That consciousness continues to develop - in my view - as we rapidly gain higher levels of understanding and comprehension of our place in the scheme of things.
I continue to keep an open mind. As new information comes my way I'm happy to adjust my view and beliefs on such matters. But for now - I'm pretty convinced that we are no more "special" than any other life form that has evolved on this planet. Our consciousness "level" is a result of our evolution.
Going back a page or so...
I also am convinced that all of carbon based organic life on this planet (and where ever else it might ever have happened - or will happen) was a result of a cosmic roll of the dice. If you take all the energy/material of the Universe and toss it out there with trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of possible organizational outcomes... every so often.... here or there - this could happen. And it did. Makes perfect sense to me.
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"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."
or perhaps the consciousness level you refer to is merely an affectation - i mean, is there something "higher level" about viewing our existence as something more special than any other lifeform?
life is what you make it and if it's a song for you or a poem by frost or cooking meth in a trailer somewhere it's life. the value or worth you place on it has everything to do with you and nothing to do with life.
or not
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Send two dozen roses to Room 424 and put "Emily, I love you" on the back of the bill. Groucho Marx
or perhaps the consciousness level you refer to is merely an affectation - i mean, is there something "higher level" about viewing our existence as something more special than any other lifeform?
life is what you make it and if it's a song for you or a poem by frost or cooking meth in a trailer somewhere it's life. the value or worth you place on it has everything to do with you and nothing to do with life.
or not
Sure. Absolutely. I can consider that. That kinda goes back to my earlier comments on the first page... the idea that things only have the meaning or importance that we assign to them.
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"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."
Actually, there's an emerging body of evidence about the inner lives of many animals suggesting that they have feelings, and in some cases are self aware.
I’m somewhat aware of that and have always thought animals have some level of consciousness. I don’t think consciousness is necessarily just one thing. It evolves and there are a multitude of levels. I love animals and do believe they have a soul of sorts, but that's neither an argument for or against what I'm proposing. It's just part of the bigger picture--whatever that is....
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What we have are opposable thumbs, and that has helped carry us away from the same state as many animals to building rockets and best sellers.
I don't think that's a terribly good argument.
I realize you don’t think my points make a particularly good argument, but then again, you literally just said the only thing that differentiates us from other species on this Earth is opposable thumbs. It never ceases to amaze me how some people seems to lack any sense of objective perspective whatsoever but at the same time are so quick to cavalierly dismiss those who spend a lifetime making an honest effort at it.
First of all, why are we the only species that evolved that way? How did that happen? And as far as levels of consciousness in animals is concerned, if they had the ability to contemplate their own mortality then why don’t they, like us, have the ability to verbalize it? It seems to me you want to use evolution as a copout against anything remotely metaphysical but as an excuse for your logical shortcomings (i.e., you can’t have it both ways). If evolution gave us opposable thumbs and brains with the capacity to accomplish technological feats and contemplate complex philosophical conundrums, then that same evolution shortchanged every other species on this Earth for some inexplicable reason that you appear intent on glossing over.
Secondly, we’re not having this conversation, carried over thousands of miles through complex data networks created by people, just because we have opposable thumbs—something no other species on Earth can even contemplate. In fact, we’re not having this very conversation about the existential nature of life and the universe because of any single biological or physiological attribute. It’s far more complex than what you suggest. We’re having this conversation because the contemplation of such things is inherently and innately unique to humans.
You speak with intent. From the time you’re born to the time you die, your life is governed by purpose and intent. Much of that is your own doing and own decisions. You look around your environment and the cosmos in general, and you see design. Patterns are clear and they’re there. Yet, just because you don’t understand it or the random code written in this matrix doesn’t mean that intent, purpose, and order isn’t there. You just choose not to pay attention to it for whatever reason. Personally, my bet is fear of the unknown. It’s easier to be dug in and double down on the notion that there’s nothing after this. There’s no unknowns to face. That’s simple! Unfortunately, however, I think just as in life so is in death. Nothing is that simple. You will never “understand,” but at some point you will “know.” I promise!
Well, that's so ugly of you, to attack the person rather than the argument. So, I got a good education, big deal. Your ad hominem attack is a sign that you are not confident about your intellectual position.
My comments are based on many years of general observation and interaction with you. But I can appreciate a good ironic jab there at the end of your comment—reiterating your high level of education, trying to establish your superiority, and playing the victim while simultaneously going on the offensive. That’s exactly what narcissists do…..it is what it is! Thanks for sharing….
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I don't need to make you write about your Alzheimer's,
Jesus Christ, this is proof positive you don’t read what others take the time to write but instead just start in with your often baseless opinions on whatever the topic is. Aren’t you supposed to be a paralegal or something of that nature? I don’t have Alzheimer's! How you came away with that conclusion is beyond anything I could reasonably imagine because what I said couldn’t have been any clearer. The fact that you walked away from my comments with that conclusion, once again, proves to me that you are not honestly engaged in this conversation and that you are not here to contribute insomuch as usurp your predetermined positions. You have a well-founded history of doing that here. Countless times in the past I’ve tried to take the highroad with you, brushed it off, and just let it go. This isn’t me being ugly. It’s me being honest. You’re not half as smart as you think you are. You’re just a know-it-all, and it’s annoying!
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it will add to the discussion. Most of us have experience with what happens to people with neurodegenerative diseases.
Yes, most of us do, but you know what? We don’t even need rely on those anecdotal cases because there are entire case studies carried out over decades of research on this very subject. There are case after case of patients who were medically braindead or in deep medical commas that “miraculously” recovered and reported in uncanny details events and conversations that occurred while in said state. They often report floating over their bodies and being aware of everything that occurred, even when that shouldn’t be “a thing.” Now, I realize what your explanation of that is going to be (neurological charges firing in the brain, etc.), but that doesn’t account for the accurate detail associated with their accouints and experiences, which aren't random at all. I’m a direct product of this, btw……My heart stopped twice after being in a car accident at age 15….I had to be revived twice and went completely out while being life flighted….I “know.”
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The brain and consciousness are not the same, but higher consciousness arises from the brain and the nervous system.
That’s a theory. Care to test it?...oh wait!...you can’t because it’s just a theory….no better than any other….in fact, I would say it falls way short because all you’re doing is now adding other physiological variables to the definition without addressing the essence of the thing you’re attempting to define….
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I have seen no evidence of consciousness, other than perhaps a primitive somatic consciousness, in the absence of brain.
I've no idea what you're talking about here.....
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Brownian motion --- that is the random universe in which we exist.
Again, it’s just one theory. I wouldn’t hang my hat on one theory, but if you really want Debbie Downer go Niietzche. Usually the originals are the best…..no one does the dark philosopohical asshole thing better than angry Germans IME.....
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You disagree and take some mystical religious esoteric view. So what?
I don’t think it has anything to do with mysticism whatsoever in that sense. This shit is just as real as anything you experience in your everyday life, and here’s a piece of news for you: Our military, Russia, UK, Australia, Canada, etc. uses it for their military and surveying purposes and has been for decades. In fact, the U.S. has spent billions of dollars trying to learn what it is and how to control it. It has provable and repeatable application and is executable to a fairly high percentage ratio. Your ignorance of it in no way, shape, or form changes that.
I don't need to make you write about your Alzheimer's,
Jesus Christ, this is proof positive you don’t read what others take the time to write but instead just start in with your often baseless opinions on whatever the topic is. Aren’t you supposed to be a paralegal or something of that nature? I don’t have Alzheimer's!
That was an error, it should have read "your experience with Alzheimer's" and I have gone back and corrected it. Was using a sticky keyboard, the youngsters probably smeared peanut butter on it, and I can get distracted and not always have time to proofread. No need to get all bent out of shape. Look, I respect your ideas, I just don't necessarily agree with them. So what? Neither you nor I are the arbiters of truth.
No, I am not a paralegal. Why would you assume that, other than that it is a falsehood that fatthunderturd iterates. I have a J.D., among other degrees. Why assume that women are invariably subordinates like secretaries or paralegals? Actually, I employ paralegals and legal assistants and researchers. And in my work I have to learn many things, eh. E.g., when suing a doctor for botching a cholecystectomy, we have to learn enough to be able to cross-examine doctors, how the surgery is supposed to go, etc. Shall I apologize for learning and reading and consulting experts?
And no, I do not have NPD or other psychiatric disorder. Although I am under considerable stress at this juncture, I handle it with relative equanimity.
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I have seen no evidence of consciousness, other than perhaps a primitive somatic consciousness, in the absence of brain.
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I've no idea what you're talking about here.....
Somatic refers to the body. I am writing about organisms that do not have brains, say a barnacle, or other simple creature. Such creatures do not have a consciousness as we may know it, but do seem to have an awareness of the body, in other words, a primitive somatic awareness.
Also, Brownian movement is not a theory, it is an observable and accepted fact. Now, whether the rest of the universe and life and reality are as random as Brownian motion, that has not yet been proven one way or the other. About this we speculate.
Why get so attached to your notions that you have to get nasty and insulting? These are just ideas, and I am not particularly attached to mine, as I am an evidence-influenced organism and willing to change my ideas as new data and evidence come in.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
By saying "opposable thumbs", I suppose I should have added "and began walking upright, and then used tools, and then developed better tools, and then preserved fire, and then stopped being hunter-gatherers and began living in communities, and then developed language, and then developed writing ..." Jesus.
If whales had opposable thumbs, maybe they would hitchhike instead of swim. They're pretty good at swimming though, and they don't apparently need opposable thumbs. So they don't have them.
Chris, you accuse me of ". want(ing) to use evolution as a copout against anything remotely metaphysical but as an excuse for your logical shortcomings (i.e., you can’t have it both ways). If evolution gave us opposable thumbs and brains with the capacity to accomplish technological feats and contemplate complex philosophical conundrums, then that same evolution shortchanged every other species on this Earth for some inexplicable reason that you appear intent on glossing over."
I was responding to your argument, which appears to be that the existence of best-sellers and rockets is evidence of higher consciousness. How does the one prove the other? Why could it not be that .. whales, to use Doug's example, have higher consciousness as well? Just because they don't invent rockets or write bad novels? That I remember, there's evidence that whales use sophisticated communication systems among each other, they use strategies to coordinate action ... just because we don't understand how to communicate with whales, they don't have higher consciousness? You know this .... how? Because they aren't humans?
That's why that's a weak argument.
Some birds use tools and are self-aware. But they don't have a higher consciousness or a soul because ... why?
We attempt to see patterns all the time to try and explain things, because they way we have developed, we use patterns and therefore want to try and use them as much as we can. But that doesn't necessarily mean there's some larger consciousness that creates them for us to discover. That sounds like what you're saying. I don't think I agree with that.
If it helps you, I used to believe in a soul and in some sort of larger collective consciousness from which we come and to which we return, and by doing so we add to the pool of all knowledge and experience. The price of returning is our individual existence. Think of it as having billions of tendrils, and at the end of each one is one of us, manifested in physical space and time. When we finish this life here, we ... retract to the Big Pool of all knowledge and share what we experienced.
But I don't believe that any more.
Glad you survived at age 15.
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Also, I don't want to have it both ways with your argument (the one saying that I " ...want to use evolution as a copout against anything remotely metaphysical but as an excuse for your logical shortcomings (i.e., you can’t have it both ways). If evolution gave us opposable thumbs and brains with the capacity to accomplish technological feats and contemplate complex philosophical conundrums, then that same evolution shortchanged every other species on this Earth for some inexplicable reason that you appear intent on glossing over.").
You're saying that because we are complex organisms that there must be a reason for the fact that we are complex organisms. Or that because humans built the internet and philosophize, and (for example) crows didn't and don't, there's a reason why crows can't and we can.
Well - the reason could be random chance (or if you prefer, dumb luck). Here's a test: prove otherwise.
You can't. Neither can I prove there isn't a reason. I just do not believe there is one. You do. I don't. You see this all as meaningful, feeding some larger purpose. I think it's just unfolding in a pretty much random, unplanned, and pointless way. There is no reason for our existence, no "why".
In thinking about this, for example, I would ask, if everything happens for a reason, what is the reason for genocide? What purpose is served by attempting to murder all the Jews in Europe, or all the Armenians, or 1/3 of the population of Cambodia, or the native American tribes, or the Tutsi in Rwanda?
I bet, because you're a nice guy and your mother raised your right, if you met a victim of the Rwandan massacres, you would not ever, ever say to them "Well, everything happens for a reason" after they told you about their experience.
Who would say such a thing? Or think such a thing? What reason? What is served?
This is like hearing "Sometimes God says no" when people talk about praying and the thing they're praying for doesn't happen. Why? Why wouldn't God say yes? What's the skin off God's nose if I win the lottery? What's served by my not winning the lottery? I could use the money, really, a lot. I pray to God to shine his benevolent mercy on me to help me win the lottery, and he says No?!? What's up with that?
People who say stuff like that are the ones trying to have it both ways, not me. They get to have a benevolent God who is capricious and cruel for inexplicable reasons, but is also responsible when everything is sunshine and unicorns. No matter what He does, He does it for the right reasons, reasons *you* can't understand.
Please. What kind of argument is that?
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
most people believe the universe had a beginning. which of course begs the question: what came before it? it's a perfect spot to insert in there the god of your choice. but you're only replacing one mystery by another.
we might as well 'cut the middleman' out of the equation and pocket the saving for ourselves.
if people posit that an eternal universe doesn't make sense, having an universe that had a beginning is even more nonsensical. there's nothing that came before the beginning of the universe, because it's a process that's been going on literally forever. Occam's Razor and all that.
my position is that the universe has been going on forever, and is evolving all the time. not only that, but it's a living organism that is conscious. because ultimately, the universe is not made with 'nuts and bolts', but with consciousness.
* every atoms and sub-atomic particles store bits of information. at the quantum level, all those 'particles' can communicate with each other
* the universe therefore, must be a quantum computer. but not a mechanical device built by an alien civilization, like some have proposed. not a machine at all.
* if the universe is processing information, it must be thinking
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Life has so much more meaning when I think of my existence as a subatomic particle in the armpit of the universe (I assume we’re located somewhere in the armpit region. Or maybe that smelly crevice betwixt the thigh and crotch.)
Just doing my molecular duty, dear overlord!
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#1605610 - 03/15/1903:41 PMRe: Do you think everything happens for a reason?
[Re: moontan]
MooseboyMooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
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Originally Posted By: moontan
* every atoms and sub-atomic particles store bits of information. at the quantum level, all those 'particles' can communicate with each other
* the universe therefore, must be a quantum computer. but not a mechanical device built by an alien civilization, like some have proposed. not a machine at all.
* if the universe is processing information, it must be thinking
* it also must be alive
Well now, that's an ~ahem~ interesting hypothesis from somebody who doesn't know the difference between a hypothesis and a theory.
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"I know that you weren't thinking in these terms, cat, but to me, thinking that mankind is a superior being is the height of arrogance."
I think, though, that the there is something incredibly complex about all life forms--the nervous system and the brain in particular. I think on any scale that I can imagine, those two things and how they drive their vessels (our bodies) is probably a very complex equation. Maybe no more or less than other complex equations like photosynthesis or funkiness, but still complex.
moontan said "very atoms and sub-atomic particles store bits of information. at the quantum level, all those 'particles' can communicate with each other"
you're just f**king with me now, right?
while i might agree that particles can "store" data that's not information.
while i might agree that particles can react to the physical presence of other particles that, in my opinion, is not communication.
or not
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moontan said "very atoms and sub-atomic particles store bits of information. at the quantum level, all those 'particles' can communicate with each other"
you're just f**king with me now, right?
while i might agree that particles can "store" data that's not information.
the way a particle spins for example is 'information'. and that can be used in a quantum computers just like electrons are used as 1 and 0 in classical computers
Originally Posted By: pbrowne
while i might agree that particles can react to the physical presence of other particles that, in my opinion, is not communication.
or not
like ickalien said, there's entanglement.
lemme get back to you on this 'communication' thing... i need to brush up on my copy of Non-Locality and Entanglement for Dummies. lol
Gretsch, I'm thinking through your response to my post and I think we're saying similar things, or at least not saying completely different things.
The "not stepping into your footprint" is "the fixed principles of this physical universe". The "planning and setting up of circumstances" is the "free will to operate within the limitations".
So, like you, if there are three choices, I will pick "C", both.
Now, consider this...
We are organisms with a consciousness that is made possible by our cerebral cortex (etc). This consciousness may be the cause of our introspection and our propensity to find reason and meaning in our existence. However, if we break ourselves down to smaller parts, if we are simply a collection of different forms of matter which make up this organism, if the thoughts that give rise to consciousness are electrical transmissions and receptions that are collectively experienced in a time oriented fashion and organized as perceptions and then stored neurologically as memory, and then recalled on cue from similarly experienced organized perceptions, then perhaps we are not free willed at all. Perhaps our free will is only another way for the organism that we are to organize our perceptions, and in turn promote self preservation (the concept of which is a whole nuther discussion). So, perhaps all the universe is history up to the present moment acting on an ever developing set of circumstances that relies on that history for the immediately previous moment's set of circumstances.
In other words, perhaps the answer is A.
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I just read Jazz Addicts explanation of the relationship between thrust and angle of attack to produce lift, so, sorry for this late, and seemingly out of context reply.
The goldilocks zone is a new expression to me but I think I get it. Included in the thrust and angle of attack discussion are flaps and trim. On take off flap setting has a lot do with the ascent rate of the aircraft, it also reduces flight stability and places extra strain on the aircraft. Using the optimum flaps setting for take-off will reduce the take-off distance and result in a faster ascent rate. Setting the trim will reduce the effort required to maintain pressure on the ailerons. All of the appropriate settings would have been programmed into the 737 MAX. If the programs incorrectly interpret the attitude of the aircraft then anything could happen. If the computer interprets a too steep angle of attack or senses a stall condition when one doesn't exist the aircraft would nose down when it shouldn't. If there isn't a way for the pilot to override the error there should be.
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"On religion, the common man finds it to be true, the wise man finds it foolish, and the wealthy man finds it useful." -Seneca The Younger ~76AD
There is speculation that what caused homo sapiens to really break off from the pack and develop to our current intelligence and consciousness level/ability was the onset of advanced communication - verbal language....
Yes, there is, or was, speculation that humans developed parts of the cerebral cortex and large forebrain as a result of language acquisition. However, it turns out that all mammals have the requisite cortical structures. And it may be that the development of the cortical structures preceded language ability. Hard to know what went down 50,000 years ago.
Originally Posted By: Webster
I also am convinced that all of carbon based organic life on this planet (and where ever else it might ever have happened - or will happen) was a result of a cosmic roll of the dice.
Carbon-based life was less a roll of the dice than an inevitable result given the bonding characteristics of carbon. A property of carbon resulting from its electron shell configuration is that it can and will form large chains and macromolecules, which are needed to put together an organism. Other elements (with the possible exception of silicon) do not have the capability of forming the bonds and chains that life requires.
Not for me. To put it simply "Dont tell me what to do!" I dont like external controls.
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I hear this from time to time. Something happens, people go "Oh, everything happens for a reason."
I don't think it's true. I think a lot of random crap happens, and then that's it, you exit stage left. It is all luck of the draw. We only have the illusion of control. Saying "everything happens for a reason" assumes some big plan - I don't think there is one.
Everything happens for a reason, if by reason you mean cause. That’s not what is implied here though. When people use that phrase, they are saying that everything that happens has a meaning. And, everything does have meaning, if you mean implications. Everything has implications. But that’s not what is implied either. What is implied is that everything has a greater meaning than simply cause and implications (or effect). In other words, there is some overarching plan that we cannot see, and the event in question is simply part of the plan.
I don’t believe that at all. Life has no greater meaning, other than what we give it. The reason we need to think otherwise is that evolution allowed us to imagine, and the curse of that is that we cannot fathom our own death, and that of loved ones. We created the concept of a god and eternal life to help us deal with that. With the concept of god comes the notion of a divine plan for you, which includes an afterlife. It’s all absurd, of course, but it helps people get through the night and the bad times. That’s the good part. The bad part is that it leads to people killing each other because they don’t share the same notion of what god is, and what the divine plan is.
now that we have established that particles store 'information', it's just a matter of establishing how they can communicate at a distance.
at the most basic level, a hot cup of coffee becoming cold is exchanging information with its environment, in order to become cold.
like ickalien said, there's entanglement.
in the double-slit experiment, particles don't have a definite shape or specific location, until they are observed or measured. so it would appear there's some communication happening between the observer and the particle that's being observed.
also, quantum entanglement suggests the universe functions as a fundamental whole rather than a collection of discrete parts.
i have stuff to do, but give me a couple of weeks and i'll sort it all out. lol ---- ... actually, i think these 2 videos below frame my position exactly. i found them just minutes ago; seems like the Youtube gods smiled down on me and randomly put one of them in my queue. so it looks like i'm off the hook and means i can go back to my synths! lol
now that we have established that particles store 'information', it's just a matter of establishing how they can communicate at a distance.
Um, no, this has not been established at all. In order to understand physics, one needs calculus and other higher math and years of study. This stuff you discuss is fun for speculation and science fiction, but it is not accepted physics. Seriously, people go to MIT to study physics, not YouTube. It takes at least seven years to get a physics Ph.D. If you really understood quantum physics, you would have another and higher-paying job.
Consider the phenomenon of indistinguishability: two electrons cannot differ in anyway. In other words they could not "store" information in anyway that would distinguish one from the other. Two helium atoms in ground state cannot store extra data because they are identical bosons. The principle of indistinguishability leads to the inexorable conclusion that the only "information" a subatomic particle carries is in its wavefunction for its spin and momentum superposition state. Further, Bell's theorem rules out local hidden variables reproducing quantum mechanics, and quantum indistinguishability rules out extra bits in particles.
In order to understand physics, one needs calculus and other higher math and years of study.
i don't need years of study to understand how planes fly.
all i need is a quick overview of the Bernoulli Principle, the 4 forces that act on an airplane and how these 4 forces can be used to make that plane move on its 3 axis. which takes a couple of minutes at the most.
one only needs the math if one is an airplane designer.
any topic, no matter how complex, can be understood if it's explained clearly enough.
“ In order to understand physics, one needs calculus and other higher math and years of study. This stuff you discuss is fun for speculation and science fiction, but it is not accepted physics. Seriously, people go to MIT to study physics, not YouTube. It takes at least seven years to get a physics Ph.D. If you really understood quantum physics, you would have another and higher-paying job.”
Rather elitist to think ordinary people have no stake in discussing the quantum. There are some basic principles of reality there that probably every human could benefit from being puzzled by just like the physicists.
Much of what ordinary people who are into physics discuss comes from many good books written by physicists who are trying to share their work.
Also, there are many good books written by good writers interpreting that work for us. There is a wealth of good books on the quantum, and relativity, and black holes,and evolution and ...
There is also a lot of goofy stuff out there. You’d have to stick to discussing the merits of the idea offered, not attacking a person’s physics coursework as though only those who majored in physics can discuss it with some worthwhile thought.
In fact, many who work in physics do not like to discuss or contemplate much of the wierdness their field has uncovered. It is not necessary for their job and to many of them, it’s not to their taste.
Much of what ordinary people who are into physics discuss comes from many good books written by physicists who are trying to share their work.
Also, there are many good books written by good writers interpreting that work for us. There is a wealth of good books on the quantum, and relativity, and black holes,and evolution and ...
I agree that a reasonably intelligent human can get a basic understanding of physics and physical principles from reading and self-study. However, it is not until one really gets into studying something, most anything, that one becomes aware of how much there is to know and how much one does not know. Many colleges have courses titled like "Physics for Non-Majors." I am absolutely for people learning more science, not for people accepting New Age mysticism or mangling of science because they are unable to tell the difference between science and whacko speculation.
There are a lot of poseur writers and New Age whackos and YouTube stars mangling physics and science for the general public. Think of Deepak Chopra writing books like Ageless Body, Timeless Mind, total BS and his hair is now getting gray in its supposed agelessness . . . his readers apparently are unfamiliar with cellular senescence. Think of the writers going on about quantum mysticism who cannot even parse an atom or explain radioactive decay. Think of Fred Wolf's so-called physics books, which contain page-after-page of hare-brained non sequiturs or references to "spirits".
And if you cannot do the calculations, your plane runs out of fuel, or your Mars lander misses the planet by 100,000 miles, or your bridge collapses, or your military tank will not fit on the airplane. (See the movie Hidden Figures --- no space program without those mathy women.) Math is the language of science and if you do not understand the language and in fact express disdain for it, you will only have a surface incomplete and imperfect understanding.
And by the way, if you really want to learn Physics, MIT and many other universities now have FREE online courses where you can. No need to get your information and misinformation from YouTube.
If you want a good scientific non-mathematical overview of physics, relativity and quantum theory, John Charap's book, Explaining the Universe: The New Age of Physics is an excellent exposition.
One idea I thought I saw up in the thread was about particles communicating bits of information.
But that’s a central problem of modern physics. How two matched particles always have opposite spins no matter their distance even when the distance would be too far for communication at the speed of light.
people like Seth Lloyd, who builds quantum computers, do not really understand how they work. they know it works because they can build it, but beyond that...
our universe is made with 'magic'. people of many religions and philosophies have been saying this for thousands of years. something science is just starting to discover.
it's unfortunate some people don't see that.
* every points of space-time is connected. * consciousness is embedded in the fabric of space-time itself.
it's not me saying that. it's Sir Roger Penrose.
but i'm saying too. and if you have a problem with that, you better take it up to him, not me.
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Originally Posted By: Tao Jones
I think the sense in which the phrase bothers you , flat, is where it means “ this bad thing is really a good thing if looked at rightly.”
Or “everything is good ultimately”,
but it’s not.
Yes, perhaps so. It's something people say to try to make people feel better about a disappointment or a loss, and maybe it is the idea that it's bad now but ultimately good.
I tend to be a person who tries very hard (often failing - but I try very hard) to use language carefully. I try to use appropriate words, even if they are not frequently used. And so a phrase like "Everything happens for a reason" just makes me upset.
An example: many years ago, I was divorced from a first wife. Sociologists took to calling those "trial marriages" - they lasted for 1-2 years, usually no kids, kind-of a thing from the late 80s and early 90s, apparently. Who knew. Anyhow. So my first wife and I were splitting up. And I went to see my Sicilian grandmother.
My Sicilian grandmother did not say "Everything happens for a reason". She did offer some words of solace though, words that have stayed with me to this day. She said:
"Well ... (there was a long pause after the word 'well' with my grandmother, frequently, when she was thinking of the right words to say) ... Well ... Tommy, there's lots of fishes in the ocean. You'll find a nice girl."
And then she paused and said:
"Not some junk like the last one."
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Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
So, the article says what I said: That we have been unable to determine how consciousness arises from matter.
The solution to the nature of consciousness and physical reality is not going to come from dead old philosophers. (But thank heaven, she did not rely on Hegel.) It will come, if it comes, from science and math.
And consider: If the brain and mind were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we could not. And if the universe were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we could not.
We have enough understanding of the nature of physical reality to be able to destroy the planet with thermonuclear bombs. Do we really need more? Shall men learn enough to be able to destroy the solar system, the galaxy, the universe???
What sort of species are we? We cannot cure mental illness or most cancers, yet we put most of our brainpower to devise ways to kill, to imprison, to make life a hell for many, and we are very good at destruction.
There is a story in the news today about a man who shot a male lion sleeping in the sun, who writhed and died in great howling pain and agony, all recorded, then the smiling man posing with his "trophy." A species that cannot control its own violence is a blight on the universe and should better learn how to improve itself before trying to unlock the secrets of total destruction.
Our knowledge of the nature of reality has far outpaced our moral and ethical development and so all humans do is create more pain and suffering and destruction. And obesity.
The solution to the nature of consciousness and physical reality is not going to come from dead old philosophers. (But thank heaven, she did not rely on Hegel.) It will come, if it comes, from science and math.
Sir Roger Penrose in his Orch-OR theory concludes mathematically: consciousness is embedded in the fabric of space-time itself.
basically the same thing dead old philosophers have been saying for thousands of years.
in this view, the brain is not regarded merely as an organ that produces consciousness, but more as a receiver.
theory concludes mathematically: consciousness is embedded in the fabric of space-time itself.
basically the same thing dead old philosophers have been saying for thousands of years.
in this view, the brain is not regarded merely as an organ that produces consciousness, but more as a receiver.
Old dead white men philosophers have for centuries been saying that women are a subhuman creature, that African peoples are an inferior subspecies, and that it is beneficial to enslave and exploit people, so excuse if I am not so enamored of your philosophers as you are.
You do realize that you are in the realm of ideas, speculation, theoretical physics, unproven theory and a realm where humans see only a tiny bit of the picture. Much to early to even draw conclusions, much less get emotionally attached to a view.
there are some very mysterious things happening: how the hell particles in the 2 slits experiment can modify their behavior when they are being observed? we have to assume they know somehow they are being observed, don't we? what's your take on that?
and then, there's the sense of being observed by people. apparently, this has been proved in laboratory experiments.
but this is getting into the paranormal, which perhaps will be explained in the future by science...
Da Bears 
