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#1611329 - 04/26/19 10:41 AM VS on a UPS... and what else?
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
Hi everyone!

I'm sure many of you VS-2480 owners use a battery back-up (UPS) on your VS units.

But, what ELSE do you run on backup ALONG with with the VS? Maybe external monitors, external drives, etc.?

I am trying to make sure I have the critical equipment hooked to the UPS, but nothing else that's not really needed.

Also, I want to be sure my UPS can handle the load and give me sufficient time to do a safe shutdown.

Thanks!

Starliner
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#1611337 - 04/26/19 11:17 AM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
RevBill Offline
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Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 462
Loc: Lexington, KY
Generally I have kept the VS, my desktop PC and shared VGA monitor on UPS power. Often a UPS has additional outlets which are filtered but do not have battery backup. I connect my Samson C control and powered DS 50 monitors to those so that everything interfaced to the VS has spike protection.
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#1611537 - 04/27/19 06:58 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: RevBill]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
Do you have just the one shared monitor, or two?
(BTW, I also have a C-Control I was going to dedicate to use with my 2 VS-2480's.)
I don't have monitors specifically for the VS yet, but likely they will be powered. I have other (JBL) monitors which connect to my A&H setup.

Starliner
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#1611548 - 04/27/19 07:52 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
mobofsquirrels Offline
Debaser
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Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 775
I have one of my 2480s, and its monitor, on a UPS. Everything else is on a furman surge protector. I've never lost power while I was using the machine, but if I did, I'd shut it down immediately instead of finishing anything.
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#1611618 - 04/28/19 11:25 AM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 7726
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
I have EVERYTHING in the mastering studio running thru the TrippLite SU1500XL UPS I purchased.

It's actually a SmartOnline 120V 1.5kVA 1.2kW Double-Conversion UPS. About $900 new, but I found a used one for $200 that wasn't working and was still under warranty. Tripplite actually replaced it with a refurbished unit with a full warranty and new batteries!

What it does is filter all the junk coming in from the power supplier, keeps the voltage at 120VAC (+ or - 2%), and keeps it there with all voltage input levels from 65VAC to 150VAC without going to battery.

I also have my vintage stereo system connected to it, as well as my big plasma TV. All of them are never running at the same time, so it will never get overloaded. Certain outlets in the house were rewired and connected to the SU1500XL; they immediately go to battery backup if there's a loss of power for about 15 minutes (depending on the total load).

. . Falcon
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#1611653 - 04/28/19 02:37 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: FalconEddy]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
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We have 3 AC rack-mounts > 8 channel surge-protectors ..everything is routed through those conditioners ..

Edited by C Jo Go (04/29/19 07:06 PM)
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#1611662 - 04/28/19 05:44 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
RevBill Offline
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Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 462
Loc: Lexington, KY
Starliner, I only have one 22 shared flat screen that toggles between my desktop PC and the VS2480. My keyboard and mouse are on the same KVM switch but dont need power.

I got my first Belkin when I bought the 2480, I think it was in 2001. Where I lived in N NJ the rural electric company frequently lost power, sometimes for days. The first UPS was 1500 va and it lasted quite a few years. I think Im on my third UPS now but I cant recall the brand but it was in the $300 range.

My reason for the UPS was to protect the 2480. My 2480HD had quite a few problems and was sent back to Roland US in Ca at least 3 times to be reflashed. Roland made good on things and ultimately, with the help of a Roland rep on this forum, replaced my 2480HD with a brand new 2480CD version. Maybe they would have done so no matter what but having UPS protection could have been a factor in their willingness to swap the unit. At that time retail was still in the $4k range.

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#1611675 - 04/28/19 07:04 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: RevBill]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
RevBill, thanks for the clarification! You were lucky to have Roland finally take such good care of you, after all that hassle.

Mobosquirrels, thanks for your input!

Falcon, that's quite a nice UPS you're using! Good information!

C Jo,... Wow... eight channels? Do all three systems have battery back-up? What make and model are they?

Right now, I have two APC BR-1000G's, each of which can handle 5 amps on backup. But, I will also need to protect my PC, which will connect to the A&H system and to the VS systems. And with the monitors, I may be pushing the limits on the two APC units I now have. I am in the process now of measuring the AC current demands of each device, as well as other related gear.

My area of Florida sees a LOT of lightning activity... I've lost equipment twice before (including my central AC, dehumidifier, computers, printers, etc.... the surges went straight through the original devices and the MOV's on the PC kept right on working, but the equipment did not. I am having the power company install their own surge protector right at the meter socket. But, I want to be protected further, and have a large SurgeX (PF-420 - 80 amp total - consisting of four 20-amp circuits) for inside the house, which wires direct to the breaker panel. However, the SurgeX has no battery backup.

Starliner
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#1611815 - 04/29/19 07:10 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
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Loc: carmel valley,ca
 Originally Posted By: Starliner


C Jo,... Wow... eight channels? Do all three systems have battery back-up? What make and model are they?



Starliner


I dropped the UPS -- had problems with the batteries .. So just run as much of the gear through conditioners and then a main spike /conditioner (where all 40 plugs connect eventually down the line ) at the main AC -- ..


Edited by C Jo Go (04/29/19 07:17 PM)
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#1611825 - 04/29/19 08:03 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
Aaaahhh... now I understand.

Wish I could get by without battery backups, but I'd be playing with fire while covered in gasoline.

Starliner
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#1611833 - 04/29/19 09:37 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 7726
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
 Originally Posted By: C Jo Go
 Originally Posted By: Starliner


C Jo,... Wow... eight channels? Do all three systems have battery back-up? What make and model are they?



Starliner


I dropped the UPS -- had problems with the batteries .. So just run as much of the gear through conditioners and then a main spike /conditioner (where all 40 plugs connect eventually down the line ) at the main AC -- ..


C Jo, that unit doesn't actually have 'surge protection', per se. It's just a cheap, plain old on/off eight switch power panel with a 15A resettable circuit breaker.

Starliner, you need real surge protection for lighting, and a UPS to prevent data loss when working and you have a power failure. Period.

I have 15A breakers and lightning struck one of my garage door opener units (in a round about fashion). It didn't trip that breaker and destroyed the circuit board on the opener. I'm glad it had a lifetime warranty (including labor) before the company did away with lifetime warranties on later produced openers.

. . Falcon
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. . . but, what do I know?

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#1611834 - 04/29/19 10:37 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: FalconEddy]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 25297
Loc: carmel valley,ca
No real lighting in this area -- but we do have storms -- which I automatically never venture into the studio >> those 10 days a year or so ..

So I no longer have the UPS .. and the surge protector box at the AC ( off the fuse box) -- is not top of the line unit... but, no problems in all these years ..

Not sure how the ROLAND handles a "crash" >> never been in that situation /\ hopefully it saves the last minutes ??


Edited by C Jo Go (04/29/19 10:39 PM)
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#1611835 - 04/29/19 10:38 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: FalconEddy]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
Agreed, Falcon.

Power company will install an MOV "meter socket ring", which protects the incoming lines. Then, the breaker panel (directly behind the meter socket on an inside garage wall) will connect to the adjacent 4-circuit SurgeX panel, which is a series-mode type of suppressor. Those 4 circuits will feed the studio.

The UPS unit(s) will connect to those outlets. Anything not needing battery backup will also be connected to Furman (MOV) suppressors in the racks.

I'm also looking at "Joslyn" MOV suppressors for the circuits in the breaker panel. An electrician friend of mine swears by them... ALL his nearby neighbors have had a LOT of electronics and appliances wiped out in lightning strikes... all he ever lost in 22 years of lakeside living was a photocell control on a yard light. Every person I know here (except him) can tell you what expensive stuff they have lost to lightning strikes.

Thunderstorms are bad here.

Starliner


Edited by Starliner (04/29/19 10:50 PM)
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#1611837 - 04/29/19 10:42 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 25297
Loc: carmel valley,ca
Had a FURMAN back in the 90's -- but hard to find the units with individual switches ..


Don't remember the model of the UPS -- was about $5-600


- WAudio AC Power Purifier with Surge Protector at the fuse box //

has a some type of automatic extreme voltage shutdown


Edited by C Jo Go (05/01/19 12:15 AM)
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#1611840 - 04/29/19 10:59 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
The Joslyn units are called secondary suppressors, and are MOV-type, and will open up at 177 VAC. They are either replaceable, or can be rebuilt internally.

Maclean Surge Tec is very similar, opening the circuit if it hits 175 VAC.

Cheap insurance, IMO.

Starliner
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#1611841 - 04/29/19 11:14 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
You can always put the power switches downline from the UPS or Furman... just make sure your current ratings are correct so you don't overload anything.

That way, you can still have individual switch controls, AND have a UPS / suppressor ahead of the power switches.

Starliner
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#1611843 - 04/29/19 11:29 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8316
Loc: Iowa
 Originally Posted By: C Jo Go
...Not sure how the ROLAND handles a "crash" >> never been in that situation /\ hopefully it saves the last minutes ??


Yeah - good luck with that one......
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#1611844 - 04/29/19 11:42 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: uptildawn]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
I don't want to find out how the Roland handles a crash myself... the warnings in the manual about what can happen during an improper shutdown kinda tell me all I need to know. You can lose it all... When you get power failures, sometimes it surges on and off, the voltage can vary all over the place, and that's certainly no good for any hard drive (or electronics in general).

Starliner
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#1611848 - 05/01/19 12:21 AM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: uptildawn]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
Planeteer


Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 25297
Loc: carmel valley,ca
 Originally Posted By: uptildawn
 Originally Posted By: C Jo Go
...Not sure how the ROLAND handles a "crash" >> never been in that situation /\ hopefully it saves the last minutes ??


Yeah - good luck with that one......



Guess I am too use to the latest software programs I use ...

Something like >> " Last time you did not close correctly ..would you like to start where you left off " CYBERLINK Power Director
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#1611849 - 05/01/19 12:33 AM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 25297
Loc: carmel valley,ca
Had several UPS backups for that studio in Big Sur > I worked at for 4 years ... but they had very unstable AC -- along the rural Pacific Coast..
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#1611894 - 05/01/19 12:56 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: C Jo Go]
C Jo Go Offline
pseudo musician ~●●~
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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 25297
Loc: carmel valley,ca
The racks all go direct to here and another at the main AC outlet of the panel
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#1611913 - 05/01/19 03:33 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: Starliner]
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 7726
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
C Jo, yeah, THAT surge protector is OK. Fast response time and a fair to good joule rating.

. . Falcon
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. . . but, what do I know?

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#1611937 - 05/01/19 05:09 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: FalconEddy]
mobofsquirrels Offline
Debaser
Planeteer


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 775
I just bought one of these for surge protection on my downstairs machine:

Tripp Lite Isobar 8 Outlet Surge Protector Power Strip

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#1612302 - 05/05/19 05:43 PM Re: VS on a UPS... and what else? [Re: mobofsquirrels]
Starliner Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2894
Loc: Florida - Dunnellon
Been doing a lot more digging into surge protectors and the criteria for evaluating them. Here are some more points to consider.

Apparently, the JOULES RATING is only one of the factors involved. Nevertheless, a high joules rating is preferable.

Other items of significance are RESPONSE TIME and LET-THROUGH VOLTAGE.

Response Time: Response time should be one nanosecond, or less. The higher this number is, the more risk for your equipment. A magnetic circuit breaker is MUCH slower, and, while sufficient to protect house wiring if properly specified and installed, your equipment will be damaged faster than the circuit breaker can respond.

Let-through Voltage, Clamping Voltage, Voltage Protection Rating: Again, a lower number is preferable, on the order of 350 volts or less. Be aware that normal house current is usually measured as an an RMS value, and actually can run above 120 VAC, if you calculate your wall voltage and multiply by 1.414. A surge suppressor should allow for the peak voltage (in the range of 170-175 volts) before it takes action, to allow for this factor.

Surge protection LEDs: These little lights show whether your surge protector is working. However, they are often not easily visible in a typical installation. And, few surge protectors will let you know when they are no longer doing their job... you have to look at them occasionally.

MOV's: MOV's are devices which "get used up" in the process of protecting your equipment... they are not "forever" devices. Furthermore, they can fail violently (think smoke and fire) if they are not suitably encased in a fireproof housing. There was a video some years ago showing a plastic power strip with a typical MOV which failed, and melted the power strip. Don't need that happening behind your gear racks! Along those lines, I personally would be more confident with a metal housing, but... the MOV itself has to be contained within the surge protector, so as not to be a source of problems if / when it fails.

Series-Mode surge suppression (ZeroSurge, SurgeX, etc.): These devices are more expensive than MOV-type units. There is some disagreement (as in many things on the internet) as to whether they are worth the extra cost. One item discussed is they are supposed to eliminate contamination of the ground line during a heavy surge. I think in order for this to be effective, the grounding system must be as good as possible... eliminate any multiple sources of grounding (star-grounding), ground loops, and insure a solid earth ground.

House / Studio Wiring: If the house or studio is improperly wired (and grounded), a surge protector cannot do it's job as designed. A simple, inexpensive receptacle tester (many probably have one already) will tell you if there is a basic problem in your wiring. Might be a good idea to address that issue as soon as possible.

Multiple types used together: Depending on their configuration (location in relation to the equipment to be protected and the incoming AC power), having multiple types can be either good or bad. Simply adding several of the same type in series may result in no more protection than a single device.

Some surge protectors can fail, and let your equipment keep on operating normally, but WITHOUT protection. For myself, I want the device to cut off the current flow COMPLETELY upon a failure, so I know something has failed, and I can take corrective action before the next surge arrives.

Obviously, this is where the UPS enters the picture... for equipment which needs to keep on running until you shut it down correctly. And, as Falcon can attest, not all UPS units are the same. Good ones cost more.

Ratings from Underwriter's Laboratories can also be examined. Also, manufacturer's warranties should be looked at... if they are willing to back up their claims by lengthy and substantial warranties, with payback for damages to YOUR equipment, it might be a factor to consider. And, online reviews and lists of the company's customer base (Fortune 500, DOD, etc.) may also help you make a better choice.

Starliner



Edited by Starliner (05/05/19 05:47 PM)
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