This was an interesting read I got linked to....musicians talking about the recovery process and creativity before and ongoing....
But, this little nugget seems to have lodged in my brain, which isn't directly about getting sober...
Quote:
What do you think would have happened if you’d carried on as you were?
Isbell: Well, I didn’t have any liver damage yet, so if I hadn’t have been in a car accident, I probably could have maintained for quite a few years. And I would probably have been a struggling songwriter and touring musician, and probably would have thought that my music was just going over everybody’s head. Or I was born too late: all these excuses that people give when your work is not quite strong enough or when they don’t work hard enough or aren’t able to focus. And I would have just kept on drinking and kept on ruining relationships. I don’t think I would have my wife and my daughter, and I certainly wouldn’t have a big pile of Grammys and all that kind of shit.
you know who I'd like to get his take on that? Kevin Gilbert. RIP.
Jason often (IMO) has novel ways of saying things....that's the attraction....but, what I bolded, kinda hurts in a familiar way.
Edited by Popmann (09/19/1909:09 PM) Edit Reason: Retitle
But back to the topic: " And I would probably have been a struggling songwriter and touring musician, and probably would have thought that my music was just going over everybody’s head. Or I was born too late: all these excuses that people give when your work is not quite strong enough or when they don’t work hard enough or aren’t able to focus."
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I think that's bullshit. It's a humblebrag. If I'd kept doing what I was doing, I would not have been as brilliant as I am.
Two words for you, Jason: Keith Richards. That guy has been drunk and high since before your parents were born, non-stop. Doesn't seem to have hurt him any.
John Lennon quit drinking and ate macrobiotic, and he was murdered.
He is totally ignoring timing and luck, which are pretty much 100% responsible for his success.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
I probably should left the rest out of the quote. What stuck with me wasn't that part...the bold didn't work that well...
Edited to the part I originally bolded. I thought leaving a little context in...well, I'm a context guy, but maybe that hurt the discussion here.
Quote:
And I would probably have been a struggling songwriter and touring musician, and probably would have thought that my music was just going over everybody’s head. Or I was born too late: all these excuses that people give when your work is not quite strong enough or when they don’t work hard enough or aren’t able to focus.
Maybe I should retitle it "what's your fave excuse for your own work?" ...which I think Flat answered.
I was thinking about it last night laying in bed--the actual thing that stuck with me....trying to come up with the excuses I've told myself over the years. What occurred to me, is that there has to be a component of truth to an excuse.
(you don't get it because) "I didn't make it FOR you. I make this art for ME, and I think I nailed it."
That's true on a number of levels, but it's also excusing poor song craft or execution.
That was the one that I thought of that's transcended time. I'm sure I've used all kinds of things over the years. The other was a more complex web....where if someone pointed out a component they didn't like or didn't think was up to snuff--I could/can find examples of people who exceed that--"You think I'm pitchy....Neil Young exists. You ever heard Adam Duritz live?" --both true--I've never been as pitchy as either of those guys. But, also--if you look at the audience of Neil Young--is that the audience for the kind of music I make? No. Counting Crows gets a little closer to home--like I said, there's GOT to be truth to an excuse for it to carry weight. But, still--probably not all my crowd. I do venture into your kind of 3 chord folky country rock....but, then....it's just something I touch on where they mostly live there.
Anyway--the thoughts I'd hoped to have discussions about are kind of the "excuses" you've used....if only largely to yourself....whatever....over the years for music not connecting.
Anyway--the thoughts I'd hoped to have discussions about are kind of the "excuses" you've used....if only largely to yourself....whatever....over the years for music not connecting.
Always connect -- I am the drummer -- that's the first excuse. I keep the beat for the conglomerate . Still a jammer since the 60's > no thought of practice ~ graces my alchemy.
Desparadoes Waiting On A Train is my favourite tune that he does. he did it on a show about Townes Van Zandt i saw. just his vocal and acoustic guitar. fantastic.
and yea, my excuse for a long time was that no one "got me' or understood me when it came to my original material. looking back to that period i've realized i just wasn't a very good songwriter. when i look back at my old stuff now,hell, i don't even get it let alone understand it. it's so much better now a days not trying to impress anybody.
Myke
_________________________
Can i get that left-handed?
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I am not saying he is or is not good. I haven't had a chance to listen.
So here's a thing: I was in a band in my younger days. The main guy in that band and I wrote songs together, we played together as a duo, and we were very popular. We put together a band, did some gigs. Then I left New York and moved to Boston. The band continued and they eventually got signed, did reasonably well on AAA radio.
Here's the thing: I know, for a fact, that the main guy in that band is neither a better songwriter nor a better guitar player than me. We absolutely complemented one another, which was I think one reason we were well-liked. Our styles were a little different, but he was not "the talent". We were both "the talent".
I've gotten some really nice compliments from some really, really good songwriters, which have meant a lot to me.
So why did they get signed and the band I joined in Boston not get signed? Different styles of music, different places of origin, lots of reasons, maybe - but really, in the end, luck.
Saying that, though, I am also not prolific. At all. That's another reason why I didn't get as far as maybe I could have. I got sidetracked by my life, and didn't devote the time or attention to writing perhaps I could or should have. But that's what happens when you make decisions. Decide means to kill off an option - same root as homicide or fratricide.
My own fault. Too bad.
But also, luck.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
I think what I hear you saying, Flat, is that success is not all merit based....that the cream doesn't always rise. To which, I'd say that that's both true AND an excuse that qualifies.
I would just say that I kind of think a LOT is merit based--it's just not always the merit that one assumes. I think that a musician's business acumen and lack of artistic gag reflex IS a reason they succeed. So, what you or I might see as "what a marginal lacking talent singer...guitarist...songwriter--whatever" IS in fact ALSO a genius social marketer.
But, I also didn't really even think about this as a commercial success thing. There's a LOT of facets to that diamond. I guess this stuck with me, because I'm going through a lot of thought about what the "back nine" will look like for me musically. Call it brutal honesty. Time to kill off more options.
common you guys forgot the element of this .......
I never heard of this guy before ya good songwriter here okay but there are ton of those..bluebird cafe. open mic everywhere there are gems. ....
...but Art and being an artist is always a mystery. I always will remember ,ive told this before, Emmylou Harris talking to her producer when I was in a room with them how confused she was that her song with willie nelson didn't get more airplay( GULF coast Highway). she worked at it. she wasn't making excuses she was just bewildered. artist always will have the drunk on the end of the bar I coulda Been a contendah,, speech available because so many don't make it but its life too. the artists life is not a straight nine to five get your pay check and retire life its a gamble. its a huge gamble....didnt you think buying the Roland 840 ex was going to be the hit maker to run you to fame and fortune...okay I did...the glossy brochure was ..I think I still got it somewhere...... some artist don't even know they are great ...until their dead..some don't want to be famous or great as stage fright or writers block or who gives a fuk about fame I need to be atruckdriver takes over. excuses aren't just for musicians and artists but ok ill go with the topic more its also about the learning curve of music being able to do the business part being able to identify your audience I never had a excuse for my music failing other then it was crap . and when it was good it stays with me I carry it on. I try to figure it out why it feels good. im reading songwriters on songwriting now its great to read how great songwriters work.its a craft. you have to work the skills find your way to do things. find your voice.
I like the fact that he's speculating how he would have been a failure if he didn't change his ways. He might have been he might have been the same. its good either way. I could have been a good dad if my first girlfriend was pregnant but she wasn't so I became a great dad when I married my next girlfriend.
my drugs and drinking life have allowed me to see things I wouldn't have if I became a priest but thats another story altogether. so EXccccuuuuse me!!!
Jesus, if it was down to merit, The Aristocrats would be famous.
There's an old Hollywood saying: Talent is dirt. There's a more common expression: nobody owes you a living.
Vincent van Gogh was a terrible painter. Ask any of his contemporaries. They would've said "Van Who?" or snickered. Vincent van Gogh sold two paintings in his lifetime and when he committed suicide in despair, people actually joked that he was attending a performance of Julius Caesar and when Mark Anthony said "lend me your ears", van Gogh did!
Now his paintings go for eighty million dollars. There's just no accounting for taste.
Fair enough. That wouldn't have stuck with me had it struck me that way...it struck me as knowing you're not putting all you have into it, thus it doesn't get over. You don't need to win Grammys, sell out week long stands at the Ryman, or get called "my generation's best lyricist" to have your work "get over".
I think sometimes we do good work by happenstance. But, not likely without putting in the hours. I mean--I wrote my tune Ricochet when I was 19 or so...how do I know it's a good song? Because I can sing it at 25 and 35 and now 45 and it's about me...NOW. Not literally--there's a line in it about my last cigarette which was so long ago I can't remember, but I mean the sentiments and images still conjure where I'm at TODAY. If you took the 3 songs I wrote before it AND after it, not sure that would be the case.
But, anyway-I read this as not doing your strongest work....knowing it...and making self excuses for it. I can't see where you can come at it from "that's why I'm a hit" angle...but, I could counter that with why isn't his WIFE a hit? She has a much more unique sound as a writer...she has the matching Dolly Parton sounding little hill woman voice to his...but, I can't take her stuff. I can intellectually admire it in a "I see what you're trying to do up there"...and she plays pitch perfect violin...and oh my goodness, that woman's abs...she's proud of them and should be. Wow. I digress--except to say she's WAY purtier than Jason. Still-playing in his band is her (good) paying gig.
So...I wasn't really thinking commercially. That's sometimes follows and sometimes doesn't. But, it nearly never follows lame half assed work. Not saying what's on the radio is intellectual genius. At all. I'm saying that for the expectations of a given audience/style--it's solid work. You're not turning on some live stream of current music and hearing garbage recordings where everyone's out of tune and the lyrics and shoehorned into the pentameter of the less than thoughtful melody like a ham fisted hack beginner songwriter. Or AL. People generally put their best foot forward--comparing show size is a different discussion.
"all these excuses that people give when your work is not quite strong enough or when they don’t work hard enough or aren’t able to focus."
I had a book called "It's Easier To Succeed Than Fail." The author's point was that if we actually focus on succeeding at something, we will not fail.
For example, if you are looking for a job and spend eight hours a day looking, you will find a job. If you spend six hours not looking for work and two hours looking, you will succeed-in not finding a job.
It can be difficult to focus and finish the parts of production that aren't fun. And that's the danger: procrastination and perfectionism can lead to lack of confidence and abandonment.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Well, yes - I think there's an important qualifier missing from the idea of succeeding, and that is how you define it. Yes, it's very easy to find *a* job by working at it eight hours a day, every day. But it's much harder to find a *good* job, or a job that will help you grow, or will pay you more, and so on and so on. The last time I was in the position of needing to find a job, I found one - a decent job, good company, but I took a 50% pay cut. And because the economy was in the toilet at the time and not a lot of places were hiring, I considered myself lucky. I considered myself luckier that my hail Mary pass worked out, and I ended up with my current job.
So sure. It's easy to "succeed" if your goal is "find a job". If your goal is "find a good job, making the same or more money as last time, in the area where I live now, where I can continue to develop my skills" ... well, that's much more difficult.
For me, I got some recognition from some very talented and really excellent writers that my songs were good. They basically said "you're one of us, not just a bass player or guitar player". And hearing "you're one of us" from them meant everything to me.
It didn't put a dime in my bank account. But the respect of people I respect - being considered a peer - to me, those memories are cherished. That's success.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
I wasn't quite sure how to address the issue of excuses in my own life. But now I remember seeing it.
There are a few people who've called me a genius which I found troubling since I've known actual musical geniuses. It's flattering to be called a genius, but I didn't know how to take it.
Could I really be a genius?
I concluded the reason these particular people were saying that to me was as an excuse for not practicing. So it wasn't about me at all; they were excusing themselves!
If you've taught music, you've probably also had people claim they have short fingers. I don't have have long fingers but my arms are long enough that my knuckles scrape the ground if I slouch.
If you've taught music, you've probably also had people claim they have short fingers. I don't have have long fingers but my arms are long enough that my knuckles scrape the ground if I slouch.
Its frequent in this town to meet people who have logged tens of HOURS in their LIVES tell me they wish they had a fraction of my “talent”. When i was first learning to play there were DAYS i spent ten hours between classes and guitar in hand.
I was going to point out that there is more to the point thats its hard to do the parts of production that aren't fun—because a lot of people shouldn't be considering “production” because thy haven't even done the “not fun work” of learning to music.
Edited by Popmann (09/22/1912:09 AM) Edit Reason: Clearer english
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55394
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
I’m pretty confident that I’ve always done the best that I could, from the moment I played my first gig at 10 years old. Throughout high school, I was always at the top of my game. I got sidetracked in my teens and 20s by a social movement that I thought was more important than pursuing a music career, but I was still honing my craft every day for what ended up to be thousands of hours.
Since then, when I’ve had groups I’ve been aggressive about pushing everyone to be their best so that we could deliver something that would entertain and, at least in my head, had the potential to enlighten someone in the crowd.
As most here know, I did an end run around the music industry and found a lucrative outlet for my music in my 40s. I know that I was equally smart and lucky and had good timing. Have I not had the courage to pitch the idea of using 60,000 CDs of my work as a branded business gift to this one guy in particular who really wanted to buy 60,000 coffee mugs with his pharmaceutical products logo on them, who knows if the next guy would have been receptive to the idea. I might have given up on it altogether had no one said “ok” at first. I never had to suffer through venture-capital meetings and planning sessions and constant rejection to make that idea work – pretty much the first guy pitched bought into it.
But I also thought that the music was excellent on its own. I like to tell myself that if it wasn’t, it never would have gone as far as it did.
The last 15 years and right up to this week, I’ve been putting the best work that I can in front of a more or less captive audience. It is very much based around live performance, which limits me somewhat—I can’t always present what I hear in my head, because the other players or myself aren’t really up to playing it. So most of my ideas get watered down and filtered through the talent and commitment levels of my fellow performers. And to a lesser degree, through my own.
Trying to look at myself objectively, I’d say the biggest thing that got in my way was the thing that made music interesting to me—the lack of focus on a single objective. I always wanted to be a good piano player, but because I was a composer at heart I couldn’t see the point of trying to become an outstanding piano player. I was a good drummer at my peak, but because I also played so many instruments I never saw the point of trying to become the best. I have a chameleon -like skill set to play rock, jazz, funk, country, folk, singer/singer and cinematic styles with equal conviction. But with the exception of some true geniuses, it seems that most of the people who catch on are much more focused on one style, or one sound or approach, or at least one at a time. Randy Newman made his bones as a brilliant singer songwriter, and who knew that he could be an equally brilliant film scorer? Pat Matheny might’ve stopped at just being an amazing guitarist, but his talent is more multifaceted than that and he’s since made his mark as a composer and an important bandleader and technological trailblazer. Paul McCartney seems to be doing OK as well, even though he switches styles and mediums pretty often.
Finally, the comment that “they just don’t get my music“ has a flip side: I don’t make music that most people like enough to buy. Both of these observations arrive at the same result, but one is blaming the artist and one is blaming the audience.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Jazzooo
Finally, the comment that “they just don’t get my music“ has a flip side: I don’t make music that most people like enough to buy. Both of these observations arrive at the same result, but one is blaming the artist and one is blaming the audience.
My brother referred to this as "the audience problem". We actually joked about using that as a band name. It came from a particular gig I was on with my old friend Jack Hardy. We played and it was one of those nights where things didn't really click. And we got off the stage, and the audience left, and we were doing the post-mortem, and Jack said "Man that audience really sucked tonight". And my brother said "The audience didn't suck - *you* sucked. It's your job as the performer to bring people along with you, to take them someplace, to educate them or to entertain them or both, and you completely failed to do that. You didn't like the audience? Well you didn't do anything to help them out."
I laughed for a long time over that.
Anyhow, carry on.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55394
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
Well, there is such a thing as a crappy audience. But there is also something to be said for making music that doesn’t appeal to the majority of people. I will bet that 90% of the people who bought Frank Zappa albums were musicians, not civilians looking for an evening’s entertainment.
I was in Mexico City last week and I caught this amazing group from Veracruz. Five horns, bass guitar and drums. Tight, smart, hip and really fun. Mexico City is the largest city in the world. There were about 40 people there in the club, digging these guys. Meanwhile, there was a major pop concert a few blocks away with a boy band playing inane crap which would make me change the channel instantly And their attendance was over 20,000.
Sure, that's true....but, Dweezil's doing fine playing pappy's music. I think that's a metrics thing....and sort of what I was getting at about my not thinking about it in terms of commercial success.
Jonatha, by all accounts couldn't make enough money/sell enough records for a big label to profit from her. She CAN make enough to sustain herself. She could be considered BOTH commercially unsuccessful and commercially successful--depending on the metric scale you use.
Zappa was the original indie marketeer.
What I"m thinking about--by the metric this spurred in ME.....they're both successful music composers. They made that their lives. Paid the bills. Some amount of respect of their peers.
Work landing doesn't need to involve every "CDs only have 2 good songs" douche adding you to their Spotify Faves or being an inescapable "pop culture stars, who also make music".
Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 55394
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
"Sure, that's true....but, Dweezil's doing fine playing pappy's music."
It's all relative (hehe) but sure--but I bet his audience is largely musos too.
"What I"m thinking about--by the metric this spurred in ME.....they're both successful music composers. They made that their lives. Paid the bills. Some amount of respect of their peers. "
By this metric, I am just as successful as I thought I was. I had a side career that paid the lion's share of my bills earlier in life, but I've earned plenty from my music as well.
....if this doesn't give you chills....I can't help ya. 
I keep the beat for the conglomerate . Still a jammer since the 60's > no thought of practice ~ graces my alchemy.
Da Bears 
) Get a little of the glory : as they sweat and toil to drive to the top of their visions ..
