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#1639446 - 12/29/19 09:36 AM Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
Iím trying to record a project started on the VS-880 to the VS-2480. I have a lead from digital out on 880 to coax in on 2480. Iíve routed the coax inputs to ch15/16 on the 2480 and I can see and hear the tracks Iíd like to record - but - there is crackling like distortion - Iíve checked all gain stages and can see nothing wrong. Iím planning to set the 880 to master and 2480 to slave as the 880 knows the temp info etc.
If anyone can help with what to do next Iíd be very grateful.

Note; the 880 project was recorded in MT1 and the new 2480 project is set to MTP. If thatís an issue.

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#1639449 - 12/29/19 10:21 AM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
Crackling is usually a clocking issue, so I'd check all the settings pertaining to the digital setup - sample rate needs to be the same (where recording mode like MTP, MT1 is not an issue), only one unit can be set to internal - the other set to external, the 2480 needs to be in digital lock - if it fluctuates between lock and unlock, something isn't set right.

You might check the cable you're using - it should be rca plugs on both ends (that's the coaxial, not optical), it should also be 75-ohm (yellow on a 3-wire cable used for TV) and it should be as short as possible. You might check to make sure it is snugly connected and not subject to shorts by shaking it around some and lightly bending the cable back and forth near the plugs.

Also, be sure to use midi cables and settings to establish good sync between the two units - IIRC, you will want to use MTC and not MMC.

Not sure what else might be in play, offhand. If one or both of the units are new to you, then you might be forced to consider some malfunctioning system part(s), which would entail a whole 'nother level of troubleshooting....... hope that's not the case.
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uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639483 - 12/29/19 03:32 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
Thanks @uptildawn youíve given me a few things to go on. I hadnít checked the clocking because I thought I was just monitoring audio - but Iím now realising that it matters with digital. Neither unit is new to me, though this procedure is. Iíve not had problems with audio crackling before on this 2480. I will get the clocking set.Iíll use the 880 as master as it knows the tempo of the songs. I was told to use MMC but you are suggesting MTC I notice. The cable could be suspect but was bought from Maplins as Ďdigital audio cableí. I will have another try and see how I get on. Thanks.
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#1639484 - 12/29/19 03:53 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
If the manual suggests MMC to connect the two VS units together, then by all means do what it suggests. It's been ages since I had to lock a pair of VS' together.
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uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639504 - 12/29/19 07:26 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
Excellent. Set the 2480 to external clock and the sound issue is sorted completely. Perfect. Itís not getting a clock signal though. Neither the coax nor the midi cable is starting the 2480 when I press play on the 880. Perfect sound, no clock. Still, itís progress!
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#1639506 - 12/29/19 07:31 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
P147 of my 2480 manual says it is not possible to slave the 2480 to midi clock.
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#1639507 - 12/29/19 07:43 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
If MMC doesn't work, then try MTC. If that doesn't work either, then you will get drifting audio sync - usually becomes noticeable within a minute and a half or so. If you're transferring tracks into a new 2480 session from the 880, then it won't matter, if all the additional tracks you record are aligned to that of the transferred tracks..... If you depend heavily on the metronome/click and timeline sync, then you may be forced to create a tempo map that will follow the time of the transferred tracks, where your tempo will "drift" along with those tracks. In a 3-4 minute track the tempo change is not terribly noticeable, though when it's all said and done. It can just be a pain to sync to without the tempo map.
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639511 - 12/29/19 07:51 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
All else fails, and if your 880 tracks don't have a terribly complex tempo map already, you can always make the 2480 master for midi sync. You could even duplicate a complex tempo map (counting measures and entering tempo changes ahead of time) in the 2480 before recording the transfers.

I'm fairly certain that the digital path is only for digital sync/lock and not for timeline sync at all. So, midi will be a necessity unless timeline sync is not essential.

I don't recall if the 880 can record a sync track, but that might be something to read up on??
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639519 - 12/29/19 08:29 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
The 880 does have a sync track. The tempo does not change throughout the song so no big issues there. I will have a look into the midi parameters of the 880 cos atm it isnít transmitting time code. The 2480 is waiting for an external clock which is not arriving.

But... suppose I run the first rhythmic track in from the 880 without clock. Can I then create a tempo map on the 2480 using tap tempo and subsequently use the 2480 as master to sync the slaved 880? Iím hoping the answer to this is Ďyesí. This is a much more useful skill because it means I could do that with any recorded jam or whatever.

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#1639523 - 12/29/19 09:34 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
You might need to re-tap the tempo now and then to keep it in sync - essentially creating a tempo map on the fly. You can always go in and create a more precise tempo map after the initial part/transfer, too.

Don't confuse digital "clock" and temp/time code "clock", by the way.
Digital clock is necessary to do the digital/coaxial recording - you know you will get the noise issue again, if you don't set one internal/one external.
Tempo/time code is necessary to keep the recording from drifting in time - in reference to the metronome/click/measures/beats, etc. during the recording between machines.

Also, once the transfer is finished, even to just check playback on the 2480, you will want to disengage the digital and midi, so the 2480 isn't confused by the 880.

I used to set tempo maps on the 1680 for jams a lot - it's labor intensive, but beat having to jam to a click.
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639533 - 12/30/19 03:46 AM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
Zenkodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
Hi @uptildawn, youíll see that I posted on the 880 forum too.
This ability to use a tempo map from Ďtap tempoí is something I must learn about. So this means that once Iíve got a rhythm track recorded from the 880, I can use Ďtap tempí to create a sync track in the 2480. Thatís good.

The problem I have now is that the 2480 is not starting when I play the 880. It sits there with the track armed and in record ready mode but does not start up and record. Iím guessing that this is because the 880 is not sending midi clock.

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#1639552 - 12/30/19 09:48 AM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
Check both manuals on how best to set up your MIDI send and receive. I don't recall at the moment whether you need just one midi cable or two - it's been such a long time since I've set up anything MIDI. You may need to consult both manuals to get the settings right.

By the way you can tap tempo markers on the fly, but it can be a bit clumsy and will probably require editing before your tempo map is ready. Maybe you can get lucky and get your tempo map to be close enough for an entire jam-style song with just a few taps at the beginning of the piece, but chances are you'll be tapping through the entire jam in order to keep up with variations in time.

If you find yourself needing very precise markers you can adjust markers afterwards, or by simply placing markers out of real time playback wherever you hear the metronome click and the song begin to drift... You might fair well by only tapping once each measure instead of every beat in order to make less work for yourself when editing the marker placement. Learn how to refine the placing of a marker to precise beats by using the audio "scrub" ability of the 880, too.

Oh - and one other thing - it's best if your tracks start playing at least one full measure in - two measures would be better. For music you've already recorded without a click (not specifically to the metronome of the 880), you may need to use Track MOVE in order to adjust the start time of your music in order for it to begin on a precise downbeat according to your tempo setting.

This can also be messy to begin with, but it's doable with a few extra edits. I would suggest maybe the following steps -
1) use the visual aide of the time display and set a Locator on beat one of measure 3 (you can make this job easy by moving the cursor under the beat number in the time display, which will move to precise beats with every turn of the dial)
2) turn on the metronome to hear it during playback
3) Locate the beginning of your music and set another Locator at that spot
4) Use TRACK MOVE to reposition the start of your music playback to the Locator you placed on beat one of measure 3. You should be able to select to move ALL the tracks at one time in order to keep them all in sync. If you have virtual tracks that need to stay in sync, you should be able to include them as well.

From this point onward, you can begin setting your tempo markers to your song's time. The tempo of the click for those first two measures may not be correct for your song, but at least it would give the midi sync time to get everything playing together when you do the transfer.

If you need your pre-song click to be at the same exact tempo to count off for overdubs, it might be far easier to set that up in the 2480, once you have your tracks transferred.

I hope this is helping. The more I try to remember how to do this, the more things I remember having to do to compensate for the limitations and I start to get bogged down in the potential steps that might have to be learned in order to achieve what you're after.


Edited by uptildawn (12/30/19 10:14 AM)
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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#1639558 - 12/30/19 10:45 AM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: uptildawn]
Zenkodo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 01/22/14
Posts: 76
Ok, all sorted!
p122 of my VS-880 manual walks through all the steps to set it as Master. Afaics itís using Midi Timecode (though the 2480 seemed to be calling it MMC) The VS-2480 now starts perfectly. It didnít pick up any temp information but once I set the tempo map to be the same as the original recording itís all fine. All crackling stopped when Coaxial In is selected in Project Parameters as the master clock. (Will I reset that to Internal once all external tracks are recorded? probably yes.)

This is great, thanks for your help.

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#1639577 - 12/30/19 12:54 PM Re: Transferring VS880 songs to VS2480 [Re: Zenkodo]
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8509
Loc: Iowa
good news! Yes set the 2480 and 880 back to their default clock settings once recording is done and they are disconnected from each other.
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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