Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I stumbled across a couple of new products from Fender - the ToneMaster Deluxe Reverb and the ToneMaster Twin Reverb. These are sophisticated digital recreations of a Deluxe Reverb and a Twin Reverb, with some additional super handy features like a built-in attenuator and an XLR out with IRs, plus they're super light weight compared to the tube models. I think it's a great idea, and Fender has obviously put a lot of work into them. They were presented at this year's NAMM, and received Best Product or something.
Here's the thing: there is a topic about this over at TheGearPage.com, and it is 250 *pages* long.
That is a lot of opinions about a product that, at least according to the first 20-30 pages I've read, almost no one has even tried.
That's the world we live in. People have opinions about all kinds of things they don't know anything about, but that's OK, it's the internet and you can say anything, even stuff you don't know about, and your opinion is as good as anyone else's.
I'm going to try one, I think these are a great idea. I'll go to GC this week, though I don't think I can afford to buy one soon.
(I spent part of this weekend looking online at amps. I really would like a 40W blackface - like a Super or a Vibro-something, or my favorite, the Tone King Sky King, what an amp that is - but they are impractical and besides, I don't play out on guitar hardly ever.)
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RE: online opinions....I have been researching amp modelers this weekend as my RP500 went wonky and peoples views are all over the place, you can kindof tell who are and who arent real players, like the guy that says the Line 6 stuff is garbage becasue he cant get a good sound from ANY of the presets, sheesh....
Registered: 07/15/01
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You would think, that after the 5 millionth review, the next idiot wouldn’t think his opinion would be interesting enough to type a whole review. Phucking idiots.
And then...I live the idiots that give it a 1. And it’s because they ordered the wrong thing. Therefore it gets a 1.
I once read a review of a 1 on a shaker egg. The dope wanted a little egg he could put candy in for Easter and he got this shaky rattley thing. Sooo 1. Phuuucking idiots.
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There are many nights when I lug my silverface deluxe into a tiny bar and have it turned up to around 2 on the volume. Those new amps are supposed to sound pretty good and are much lighter...and, one of my old Deluxe's keeps blowing rectifier tubes. Tube amps are great and everything, but they can be a major pain. I'd be willing to try one of the Tonemaster amps..
#1644610 - 02/17/2009:08 PMRe: Wow, people on the internet have opinions
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MooseboyMooseboy
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If I used amps any more, I'd sure try one. I used to love the sound of my Fender amps onstage. One rig was a Twin with JBLs, a Super Reverb, and a Deluxe Reverb all jumped together. Damn that was nice.
Another rig was two Twins with JBLs and two Dual Showman cabs with JBLs. I was a HELL of a lot younger then.
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I mean, to me, this sounds like a product worth checking out, anyhow. I have a bunch of guitar amps but I do not have a blackface Fender - and this seems like a great feature set, to me. Plus it's portable - which is important to me.
I don't know. But you know, it could be good, who knows? I would definitely try it.
It just struck me as so funny. I mean ... 250 pages?!?! Wow.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
I was advised here not to get the Neumann TLM103. But I truly love this mic. On vocals, acoustic instruments and as a amp room mic. Yeah I have to roll a little hi mid top off but I used to do that anyway with the AT4050 and the Blueberry (the Blueberry even more).
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Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 11406
Loc: Bear River, Nova Scotia, Canad...
I encourage every guitar player to go out and buy these new Fenders, in the hopes that it will drive the price of the 50's and 60's vintage amps down. Lol
I do go to YouTube a lot and watch gear reviews its better then tv and the reviews by some are very entertaining. I usually find someone who knows their gear there.
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: BmC
I encourage every guitar player to go out and buy these new Fenders, in the hopes that it will drive the price of the 50's and 60's vintage amps down. Lol
That's what a bunch of people are saying.
Another interesting aspect of this is that Fender may be realizing that tubes are ... getting scarce. And also - you know, people think you get to be a "rock star" by going on American Idol. Do kids even play in the garage any more?
I am an old fart.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
I mean too - all these different people are saying things like "they're charging too much." Like ... really? What do you know about their costs? Dealer markups? R&D costs? Seriously, you think they're charging too much?
It's so funny, people who don't know *ANYTHING AT ALL* about this saying stuff like that.
I don't know what their costs or other issues are. If I could afford one, I might buy one, if I tried it and liked it. If not ... then not.
People are so crazy in the internet age.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 11406
Loc: Bear River, Nova Scotia, Canad...
"That's what a bunch of people are saying."
You know what's funny, I didn't have to read through 250 pages to come to that conclusion. I just came up with that on my own. Seriously though, what I wouldn't give for a few vintage tweeds and blackface amps. I got a 57 Deluxe clone that is pretty damn close to original sounding, complete with an original 60's Jensen. A nice Vibroverb would be sweet.
#1644632 - 02/17/2011:17 PMRe: Wow, people on the internet have opinions
[Re: BmC]
Dan BarnesDan Barnes
I sing, I love, I love to sing.
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Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 16014
Loc: Joshua Tree, CA USA
I'll definitely be interested in trying one out. A few months back I bought an only slightly used '68 Reissue Fender Deluxe (Silver Face.) Paid $700. They are $1,000 new. Two things sold me on it, the reverb and tremolo work on both channels and the channel on the left uses a Bassman pre-amp. I use an A-B box to alternate between the two, leads on the Bassman channel and rhythm on the Deluxe channel. It's pretty good for acoustic guitar, too.
I bought it with a self-promise to sell my early 70s Silver Face Twin, the kind with the master volume. I've seen them for as high as $1,500, but my first price is $1,000. I'll probably go down to $500 if I have to. Otherwise, I'll just keep it for the rehearsal space here.
People discussing products they've not played, and just criticisms online in general are really annoying to me. The easiest thing to do is not have any real investment or responsibility in something, no first hand experience or knowledge, and then render an opinion... usually negative. It's totally Ok to do so, but I'm not putting any stock, faith or trust in the opinion providers. I'm appalled by the amount of nasty, negative reviews, comments or ratings people give to videos, stories, products, movies, restaurants, albums, etc.
While I don't find many youtube reviews or demonstrations all that compelling, and after watching hundreds, you'll get a pretty fair idea of the quality of the review video, often you don't get much in the way of real information more than planting a seed to try something out.
So yea, a light Deluxe with a majority of what makes a good working unit cool? Get something close enough, I'll do the rest, especially if it's light and has some features that solve problems. I'm game on the Tonemasters
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kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: BmC
"That's what a bunch of people are saying."
You know what's funny, I didn't have to read through 250 pages to come to that conclusion. I just came up with that on my own. Seriously though, what I wouldn't give for a few vintage tweeds and blackface amps. I got a 57 Deluxe clone that is pretty damn close to original sounding, complete with an original 60's Jensen. A nice Vibroverb would be sweet.
I look a lot at the clones, the Vintage Sound amps, the Allen amps, others too. I think something like a vibroverb would be awesome, that 35-40W couple speaker thing. I mean, that's why I was looking at Supers. One of the best sounds I've ever heard was a 335 through a Super. I love that sound. I have a 335.
But these things ... with the attenuator? Man. That could be really great.
I'm looking forward to trying one.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
Alot of people are predicting that you'll start to see similar versions of other classic amps, like the AC30, Bassman, Tweed Deluxe, etc. Guitar players want a simple interface of knobs, just like traditional amps.
Im curious to hear what someone thinks the technical advantage of this is....meaning over a traditional modeler with 100 amp models.
I continue to try new modeling software because of what I see as the obvious and inherent value add they bring from the studio to the stage....this, seems to jot habe much if any of those....its like the limitations of a Deluxe with the sound of a digital deluxe. They didnt even take the opportunity to make it like “the ultimate deluxe”—having tweed, hot rod, blues, blackface, silverface—kind of all deluxe models built into the one frame.
I have no doubt this sounds like a deluxe reissue. Thats not a high bar....and 20 years ago, my Cybertwin sounded pretty convincingly like a Twin reissue. Its 2x12, big headroom....it was also heavIER than a twin, which is sayin sompin! Looks like they fixed that glitch.
I'm seeing that Fractal and other amp modulators like the Helix have a lot of great reviews by real users. With the abundant supply of IR's offering the real sound of any amp tube or not. Pricing is high, but you pay for what you get. I'm more that route being that I don't want to lug around amps that weigh a ton. My twin did great with pedals but it was a beast to haul around.
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A lot of people, including me, think a well tuned, tubed & biased , right speaker Vintage deluxe reverb is one of the ultimate combo amps. I've owned a number of Tweed, black face, silver and reissues. They're temperamental, can be sort of heavy, can be too loud on many stages, you have to crank them to record too, often noisy, expensive to use over the long haul and not inexpensive to buy. In the past I've had to find amp Gurus to tune my Fender amps , or make them quiet.
Fender concentrated on one amp model and thats really OK in my opinion. Do one correctly as opposed to a $1200 amp that does TV Tweed or wide panel deluxes. They didn't really model the Reissue, except on the vibrato circuit, but rather had a number of vintage deluxes to base the DSP on.
Advantages? 22lbs, are you kidding. I'll take that. When you attenuate a real deluxe, the tone progressively deteriorates. Not here. Also, you stress the tube amp out ifs that's the setup you want to use. And, you have buy an attenuator I like the 57 and Royer cab mic IR's. Quick, easy. Great live...no drums bleed. It's got a level pot. Put the amp in bypass , you still get the tone out of the XLR. Great for an all IEM rig. I see more and more bands with no stage amps. But, being able to attn the amp down and use it as a monitor is really nice. Takes pedals well. There's a point on an original where the first 12ax7 tube just farts out with a boost or overdrive pedal pressed for a solo. This amp does mimic that sound but seems to do it more elegantly.
$899 for the tech and research that went into this? Doesn't seem out of line. A decent clean used reissue 65 deluxe is probably $700, then get a set of JJ tubes for $75-150. And then have every sound person tell you your stage volume is too high..."but that's my tone"
Edited by motown59 (02/18/2007:09 PM)
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kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
So, better low volume in it's speaker sound? Maybe I'll finally love a deluxe.
Let me know when they make a Tonemaster Super Reverb head with 4/8/16ohm outputs.
To ME--that's the whole in Fender's line up. I think it's hard to argue with it being their best amp ever....and it's UNMANAGEABLE at a number of points--weight and need for some form of attenuation--so it seems like the obvious choice.
Edited by Popmann (02/18/2008:07 PM) Edit Reason: Adding the Super Head thought
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29756
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
Well, I kind-of think if you buy the Twin version, you're all set.
So one reason I am thinking seriously about this is because of my THR10. I play guitar through it pretty much every day. I'm using pedals to fool around with sounds. And the model I use - pretty much exclusively - is the Twin model.
I think the idea here from Fender is to provide people with an alternative that roars like a Twin with some extra functionality (like the DI and the IRs, and the attenuator) that make it pretty much the only amp you might ever need.
I mean, sure, Jamie, who doesn't want a Super? I absolutely do. I *love* that sound. But isn't the blackface Twin the same circuit with more power, isn't wahtever it is, the AB763 or whatever it is?
For someone who, like me, rarely - but sometimes - does guitar gigs, especially ones where I need to be heard, this is a good solution, I think.
I mean, actually ... you know. I don't *need* it. Hahahaha. I have the THR10 and a Tech21 PowerEngine. I have, in storage, a Trademark 60. I have a ZT Lunchbox with the extension cabinet, and that thing is pretty loud (I've actually been using it as a bass amp). In my local storage I have a Peavey Delta Blues.
Maybe I should downsize all that stuff and just get the Twin and be done with it. Or OK, the Twin, but keep the TM60 and the PowerEngine, that thing is really good too.
_________________________ The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
It's not. It's tube rectified for one which is HUGE in a kind of blues context. And the 2ohm output transformer on Bassmans and Supers is a different deal than the 12" other Fenders. If you mean it's the same tone stack, it might be...IME, the break up is a different thing. It's more trebly break up. Less of the grunty farty Fender typical break up--a little more toppy. But, you know--I have never played one of Derek Truck's custom Allessandro amps which ARE basically Supers in head form...I've only ever played them with the whole recipe--4x10, 2ohm (which is weird) output transformer...maybe that's adding what I like.
...but, there's no such thing as "the same sounds with more/less power"...that's part of the issue. It's a very "solid state electronics" way to view it. I mean I understand where it comes from--but, at the volumes I play, I should have .5wt amps max. I HATE playing loudly. I mean--compared to what guitar amps go...I always have.
With digital, it's closer to that. Because all the sound including "output transformer" and "speaker" distortions is there before there's ANY analog volume applied. Maybe making this 100wts (the digital deluxe) will make it more intriguing.
Granted--that's not fair since the handwired Allessando isn't the $600 all day used Deluxe...but, still...which one is which? I definitely would want the one not lacking the entire top 5 octaves.
I have a friend who owns one of those Alessandor's. He bought it from my local used music store. I did not try it, because it was pretty expensive...even used. I did hear one at a guitar show last fall. I literally bought both of my mid-70's deluxe reverbs combined for less than what that amp was selling for.
My experience is that the speaker makes a huge difference in those amps. (So far, I like the Warehouse ET65.) Also, you have to turn them up to at least 3 for them to sound good.
I would guess the opinions found on an amp most haven't tried focused on the "modeling " feature. It is a marketing gimmick. XLR outputs are convienent but sound nothing like the sound that comes from a speaker.
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I would guess the opinions found on an amp most haven't tried focused on the "modeling " feature. It is a marketing gimmick. XLR outputs are convienent but sound nothing like the sound that comes from a speaker.
So, you’ve tried them yourself? Do tell...
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kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
Printed circuit board to hand wired gets you an extra five octaves? Who’da thunk
Is the open top one the Allessandro? I could just as much believe that's the digital and the analog is the wooly one. That video was a tube (albeit modded) deluxe vs the digital amp being discussed. One of them in that video is tremendously better than the other to my ear because it's like there's a blanket throw over the other one--I have no idea which is which.
I would guess the opinions found on an amp most haven't tried focused on the "modeling " feature. It is a marketing gimmick. XLR outputs are convienent but sound nothing like the sound that comes from a speaker.
So, you’ve tried them yourself? Do tell...
I think you misunderstood my post. I know you must have taken some whacks to the head.
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Printed circuit board to hand wired gets you an extra five octaves? Who’da thunk
Is the open top one the Allessandro? I could just as much believe that's the digital and the analog is the wooly one. That video was a tube (albeit modded) deluxe vs the digital amp being discussed. One of them in that video is tremendously better than the other to my ear because it's like there's a blanket throw over the other one--I have no idea which is which.
I don’t know, my dumb sarcasm aside, it isn’t a great comparison. The modded Deluxe compared to a reissue would be a fair start. But is this supposed to be just a better version of itself , where you can arbitrarily just set the tone controls to the same number ?
I’d be interested in swapping the speakers to see what the Alessandro transducer contributes.
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kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
