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#1651722 - 04/05/20 04:09 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
Wish Administrator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Webster
For those that think this is a partisan unfairness: Clear your mind... and think back a few years... and just imagine if this was the Obama Admin. - under these exact same circumstances.

Am I to believe that the unbridled VICIOUSNESS aimed at his administration back then would be idle today?



The media would have given Obama a thorough ass kissing....always did, always will.


Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?
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#1651726 - 04/05/20 04:14 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Wish]
Ismellelephant Offline
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Vanillagrits, did you at first consider the Corona Virus a hoax?
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#1651728 - 04/05/20 04:15 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
guitartb Offline
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Italy is the only country ahead of us with number of tests per capita.

Data

So it makes sense the number of cases here is growing so rapidly as the testing ramps up. This will go a long way to slowing the spread and expansive data obviously good for predictive modeling.

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#1651736 - 04/05/20 04:49 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
guitartb Offline
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[img][/img]

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#1651742 - 04/05/20 05:00 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
flatcat Administrator Offline
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Well, that looks great until you consider that we have a population six times as large as Italy's, and that we are running 2-3 weeks behind them. We don't have widely available tests. We don't have a good tally of deaths due to COVID-19. We don't have a good number of cases or infections of Corona virus because we didn't have tests and the tests we have are still not widely available.

Really - if you think this is no big deal, well go with God and sin no more. I certainly hope neither you nor your families are affected by it.

Just today, one of my closest friends lost his father to it.

It's coming.

You know, too, it's not just virus. It's the inability of the medical system to deal with so many cases at once. When this starts hitting the states where there aren't and haven't been stay at home orders, it's going to hit hard - they all tend not to have robust medical infrastructure, unlike some of the hard-hit places to this point (Washington, New York, Massachusetts). So when it comes and fully flowers and people start getting sick in droves, they will have nowhere to go for help and for many of them, they will not be able to do anything but die.

It did not have to be as severe as it's going to be. While the virus itself could not have been prevented, a failure of leadership will be the cause of many thousands of deaths of our fellow citizens.

As Dr. Brix has said, the next two weeks are going to be critical. We'll see what happens. Hold on tight.
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#1651744 - 04/05/20 05:03 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Wish]
Vanillagrits Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Wish

Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?


All I see is a bunch of armchair quarterbacking by people who have nothing but 20/20 hindsight and an almost insane desire to see the current president fail. I honestly believe if there was a Democrat in the office with the same results as today their attitude would be 180 degrees different.

This is a major crisis like we've never seen.
Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president....another president might have been more apologetic...would that have saved any lives?

If the majority here want to stomp their feet and throw fits because they hate Trump, that's their choice.

I choose to look for the best way forward.

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#1651746 - 04/05/20 05:20 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
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"Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president.."

No any other president would have listened to his intel agencies when presented with facts. Put your seat belt on, this coming week and the next will rock your misplaced faith.

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#1651748 - 04/05/20 05:21 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
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Drumpf up to this has been my favorite comedian. When elected I didn't immediately take a Mitch McConnell's stance, like wishing Obama failure, and hoped things would go along well enough.
But the revolving door of people coming and going and people going off to jail changed my feelings. I have always thought the guy was a con man but that the career government employees would keep things on the rails. Drumpf's style just doesn't cut it when things get tough. His habit of lying doesn't cut it when things get tough and my favorite comedian isn't so funny anymore when his lying costs lives. He has never taken the job seriously.
My focus isn't hate for Drumpf, my focus is people receiving the truth and care they deserve.

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?
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#1651753 - 04/05/20 05:31 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
guitartb Offline
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Flat, the first pic is per capita-it takes population into consideration.
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#1651756 - 04/05/20 05:38 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
Vanillagrits Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?


What do you think? You must have an opinion since you've asked the question so many times.

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#1651759 - 04/05/20 05:49 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
Dave Morris Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guitartb
Flat, the first pic is per capita-it takes population into consideration.

The first pic is per capita daily tests. The last pic is per capita total tests. The US is still trailing in total tests per capita, but the daily rate is better.

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#1651760 - 04/05/20 05:57 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
Dave Morris Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Wish

Why do you keep deflecting with Hillary and Obama?

They haven't had government positions in years, so why do you want to bring up hypothetical BS?

Do you know who the current President is? Why don't you talk about him and how he is managing this crisis?


All I see is a bunch of armchair quarterbacking by people who have nothing but 20/20 hindsight and an almost insane desire to see the current president fail. I honestly believe if there was a Democrat in the office with the same results as today their attitude would be 180 degrees different.

This is a major crisis like we've never seen.
Mistakes have been made, but I believe they would have been made by any president....another president might have been more apologetic...would that have saved any lives?

If the majority here want to stomp their feet and throw fits because they hate Trump, that's their choice.

I choose to look for the best way forward.

You are missing the point. It’s not that we have an insane desire to see him fail. We are pointing out that he HAS failed, in a big way - which is going to cost a lot of American lives.
Even that is not the issue. It’s the fact that he is continuing to fail. If you are truly looking for the best way forward, it’s blindingly obvious that you won’t get it from this man, or his administration.
Simple example ?
On Saturday he told Americans that they should take the anti malarial drug. Dr Fauci was asked that question on Sunday, and he said no - they should not take it. What kind of shit leadership is that ?
Should Americans listen to Dr Trump or Dr Fauci ?
Trump cannot stop blabbering a random stream of unconnected thoughts, with no basis in fact or science
Is that what is going to provide the best way forward ?

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#1651761 - 04/05/20 05:59 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Dave Morris]
guitartb Offline
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Dave, but trailing only to Italy where they had massive death rates.
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#1651763 - 04/05/20 06:04 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
flatcat Administrator Offline
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From The New York Times:

The U.S. is undercounting the number of people who have died in the pandemic, experts say.

Hospital officials, public health experts and medical examiners say that official tallies of Americans said to have died in the pandemic do not capture the overall number of virus-related deaths, leaving the public with a limited understanding of the outbreak’s true toll.

Limited resources and a patchwork of decision making from one state or county to the next have contributed to the undercount. With no uniform system for reporting coronavirus-related deaths in the United States, and a continuing shortage of tests, some states and counties have improvised, obfuscated and, at times, backtracked in counting the dead.

Adding to the complications, different jurisdictions are using distinct standards for attributing a death to the coronavirus and, in some cases, relying on techniques that would lower the overall count of fatalities.

A coroner in Indiana wanted to know if the coronavirus had killed a man in early March, but said that her health department denied a test. Paramedics in New York City say that many patients who died at home were never tested for the coronavirus, even if they showed telltale signs of infection.

In Virginia, a funeral director prepared the remains of three people after health workers cautioned her that they each had tested positive. But only one of the three had the virus noted on the death certificate.

Doctors now believe that some deaths in February and early March were likely misidentified as influenza or only described as pneumonia.

Even under typical circumstances, public health experts say that it takes months or years to compile data that is as accurate as possible on deaths in infectious outbreaks.

But they also say that an accurate count of deaths is an essential tool to understand a disease outbreak as it unfolds: The more deadly a disease, the more aggressively the authorities are willing to disrupt normal life. Precise death counts can also inform the federal government on how to target resources, like ventilators from the national stockpile, to the areas of the country with the most desperate need.
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#1651764 - 04/05/20 06:05 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
Ismellelephant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: Ismellelephant

Did Grits consider the Corona Virus a hoax at first?


What do you think? You must have an opinion since you've asked the question so many times.


Cranky aren't wee. I guess not willing to answer is an answer in itself.
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#1651777 - 04/05/20 06:31 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: flatcat]
flatcat Administrator Offline
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Dave is exactly right: it's not just that he has failed utterly to provide leadership and allow the experts to do their jobs. It is that he is *continuing* to fail to do so. Those ongoing failures are going to cost real, honest-to-God human lives. Actual people are going to die.

It's not a question of being "out to get anyone". It's an ongoing failure of leadership that happens *daily*.

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is. It doesn't illustrate his inability to manage and lead.
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#1651782 - 04/05/20 06:48 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: flatcat]
Ismellelephant Offline
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I don't think compassion comes easily to Drumpf. Masshole Republican Governor Charlie Baker broke into tears the other day while dealing with the situation. He has been doing a good job for us Massholes.
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#1651784 - 04/05/20 06:57 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: flatcat]
Vanillagrits Offline
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 Originally Posted By: flatcat

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is.


I just heard him speak of it in today's briefing.


But it's your house, go ahead and be right.

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#1651785 - 04/05/20 06:57 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
guitartb Offline
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The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.
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#1651786 - 04/05/20 06:59 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
Vanillagrits Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guitartb
The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.


There you go using logic.

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#1651789 - 04/05/20 07:08 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
Andy McClelland Offline
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Population adjusted numbers as of the date and time of this post:

Cases per 1M population:
World average - 163
US - 1,016
And for comparison Canada - 411

Deaths per 1M population:
World average - 8.9
US - 29
Canada - 7

Source
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#1651793 - 04/05/20 07:41 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Vanillagrits]
flatcat Administrator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Vanillagrits
 Originally Posted By: flatcat

The fact that he has also not once, to my knowledge - not one time - mentioned that people have died, or offered his condolences to the families of those victims only illustrates the kind of person he is.


I just heard him speak of it in today's briefing.


But it's your house, go ahead and be right.


If he did so, I'm glad to hear it and I happily stand corrected.
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#1651795 - 04/05/20 07:51 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Andy McClelland]
Ismellelephant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Andy McClelland
Population adjusted numbers as of the date and time of this post:

Cases per 1M population:
World average - 163
US - 1,016
And for comparison Canada - 411jj

Deaths per 1M population:
World average - 8.9
US - 29
Canada - 7

Source


Wow! Google is gonna break from searches to contradict these figures.
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#1651796 - 04/05/20 07:56 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
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To be fair though are numbers enough to judge management of the virus? A country with a spread out population would fair better than a country with large cities?
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#1651800 - 04/05/20 08:09 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Andy McClelland]
guitartb Offline
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World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020

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#1651802 - 04/05/20 08:11 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
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Edited by C Jo Go (04/05/20 08:12 PM)
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#1651803 - 04/05/20 08:21 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
Ismellelephant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guitartb
World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020


The countries on this list are a couple of weeks or more into the virus than the USA.
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#1651808 - 04/05/20 08:49 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Ismellelephant]
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I have to wonder how a November re-election campaign has impacted trump's spin on facts and figures he surely must have had at his easy and early disposal.

Another of my big questions, is why is there such a shortage of face masks and gloves. People are making them at home. It's unimaginable that the federal government's longtime spin was, "healthy people don't need them, just sick people". Even this week, the local grocery store was full of people without masks.

I emailed the office of the Governor (Abbot in Texas) and the State Department of Health noting the shortage of masks in Dialysis Clinics. I got fairly prompt responses from both - but not pointing me to a source, or even reassurance that some are on the way, just blah-blah-blah links to general information sites.

A coherant, cohesive national policy would be nice, but trump has let each state take their own direction - I'm guessing just so he can point the finger at them for their inevitable failure to save lives.

We're on our own, at every level of government.

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#1651811 - 04/05/20 09:21 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: FatherApe]
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 Originally Posted By: FatherApe
I have to wonder how a November re-election campaign has impacted trump's spin on facts and figures he surely must have had at his easy and early disposal.

Another of my big questions, is why is there such a shortage of face masks and gloves. People are making them at home. It's unimaginable that the federal government's longtime spin was, "healthy people don't need them, just sick people". Even this week, the local grocery store was full of people without masks.

I emailed the office of the Governor (Abbot in Texas) and the State Department of Health noting the shortage of masks in Dialysis Clinics. I got fairly prompt responses from both - but not pointing me to a source, or even reassurance that some are on the way, just blah-blah-blah links to general information sites.

A coherant, cohesive national policy would be nice, but trump has let each state take their own direction - I'm guessing just so he can point the finger at them for their inevitable failure to save lives.

We're on our own, at every level of government.


We really are on our own. The narcissistic orange Cheeto and his flying monkeys wanted to destroy this country and our government, and they are succeeding. States being allowed to shutdown on a state-by-state basis is akin to having a peeing section in a swimming pool... How f****** stupid can you be?... until every state and county in each state shuts down and until the very last infected person is quarantined this virus will continue to spread. Not only that, but this is coming in waves and will continue to for a long time.
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#1651812 - 04/05/20 09:31 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
Dave Morris Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guitartb
The population adjusted numbers will tell the true story of how this was managed in the US versus other countries.


Yes, agreed. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world, though - right ?
You would expect and assume that they would be measurably better than everybody else.
We will see what the results are

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#1651813 - 04/05/20 09:35 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: guitartb]
Dave Morris Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guitartb
World average deaths to cases rate:6%
US: 3%
Spain:9%
France"11%
Korea-2%-although I'm not sure if this includes N Korea.
Germany:1%.

Clearly of the countries that have the most cases, we are on the lower end of mortality rate spectrum.


WHO Situation Report 4/5/2020


You haven’t hit the peak yet. You know that, right ? Give it another 3 weeks

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#1651814 - 04/05/20 10:02 PM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: Dave Morris]
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The claim that any president would have made the same mistakes can't be correct. Other countries have different leaders who have responded differently and those countries have experienced different results.

Donny's administration got rid of the people who would have provided valuable information and advice. A different administration would not have done that and so the response would have been different and results would have been better.
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#1651818 - 04/06/20 05:48 AM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: flatcat]
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'grits..."I choose to look for the best way forward."

As do we all. However, with Trump standing firmly at the front of the podium spouting his daily updates, with fantasy induced moronic insertions, and off script off the wall unqualified and undigestible rhetoric, so people can scream at their TV's in a useless effort to silence this idiotic charlaton.

You're damn right we hate him, and rightly so.

On March 13 Kristin Welker of NBC news asked him if he was to blame for the lag in testing (since he was slower than an old hound dog gettin' up off the porch before takin' a sh*t in the bushes).

You know what he said 'grits???

“No, I don’t take responsibility at all.” he said to her with that smug look on his face. He immediately went to his number one, top of his charts, hit list strategy ...BLAME OBAMA!

“We were given rules, regulations, and specifications from a different time.”

ABSOLUTE BULLSH*t . No Obama-Era regulation THAT CURRENTLY REMAINS has stalled, circumvented, prevented, or blocked, IN ANY WAY; the rolling out of testing by the Trump administration .

Later, Yamiche Alcindor of the PBS NewsHour questioned him about the pandemic-preparedness office that was dismantled, but was a part of the National Security Council.

She lead off by saying, “You said that you don’t take responsibility, but you DID disband the White House pandemic office,*” she said. “The officials that worked in that office said the White House lost valuable time because that office was disbanded......"

“I just think it’s a nasty question” the president snapped back.

Now, for a little background, just so you get the FULL picture here... The National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Bio Defense was created in 2014, during the Ebola outbreak in Western Africa and was charged with the prevention of following disease outbreaks from advancing into a state of pandemic.

It was a brilliant move and one that was critical in nature after multiple experts in the field of virology, and infectious & communicable diseases had determined such a department was necessary to run point for the possibility of a global viral killer for which there was no known cure.

In 2018, in his infinite wisdom, the Trump administration dissolved the office.

*When you say me, I didn’t do it,” the president continued. “We have a group of people, I could ask, perhaps my administration.” Then he looked over at Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease Center. “Perhaps I could ask Tony about that? Because I don’t know anything about that.”

This man simply REFUSES TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for anything that turns to sh*t because of him. "Hey...let's throw THIS guy under the bus...or, THAT woman under the bus (I heard she's a BITCH anyway)." EVERYTHING turns to sh*t this guy touches...or DOESN'T touch.

There could be TWO people in a room...you and him...all of a sudden you smell a really egg type fart odor. You KNOW YOU didn't do it.

Trump says, "Hey, it wasn't me...I didn't fart! You farted. Somebody come get this guy and take him out of here...HE's FARTING, and HE won't admit it.

Trump is a quite simply an atrociously bad leader. Being a pathological liar, ego maniac, and narcissist are only THREE of the reasons why.

Having the actual ABILITY to move forward means we, as a country, need to remove all impediments from our path. Trump is a MAJOR impediment since he's a MAJOR part of the problem, and outside of having a SIGNATURE that verifies he's the POTUS, he's had NOTHING TO DO with being part of the SOLUTION since he took office.

Remember, you can always GET a job, but can you DO that job???

. . Falcon
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#1651825 - 04/06/20 07:16 AM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: FalconEddy]
flatcat Administrator Offline
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From The New York Times:

 Quote:
President Trump doubled down on Sunday on his push for the use of an anti-malarial drug against the coronavirus, issuing medical advice that goes well beyond scant evidence of the drug’s effectiveness as well as the advice of doctors and public health experts.

Mr. Trump’s recommendation of hydroxychloroquine, for the second day in a row at a White House briefing, was a striking example of his brazen willingness to distort and outright defy expert opinion and scientific evidence when it does not suit his agenda.

Mr. Trump suggested he was speaking on gut instinct, and acknowledged he had no expertise on the subject.

“But what do I know? I’m not a doctor,” Mr. Trump said, after recommending the anti-malaria drug’s use for coronavirus patients as well as medical personnel at high risk of infection.

“If it does work, it would be a shame we did not do it early,” Mr. Trump said, noting again that the federal government had purchased and stockpiled 29 million doses of the drug.

“What do you have to lose?” Mr. Trump asked, for the second day in a row.

When a reporter asked Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, to weigh in on the question of using hydroxychloroquine, Mr. Trump stopped him from answering. As the reporter noted that Dr. Fauci was the president’s medical expert, Mr. Trump made it clear he did not want the doctor to answer.

“He’s answered the question 15 times,” the president said, stepping toward the lectern where Dr. Fauci was standing.

On Saturday, Dr. Fauci had privately challenged rising optimism about the drug’s efficacy during a meeting of the coronavirus task force in the White House’s Situation Room, according to two people familiar with the events. The argument was first reported by the website Axios.

Peter Navarro, the president’s trade adviser who is overseeing supply chain issues related to the coronavirus, plopped a sheaf of folders on the table and said he had seen several studies from various countries, as well as information culled from C.D.C. officials, showing the “clear” efficacy of chloroquines in treating the coronavirus.

Dr. Fauci pushed back, echoing remarks he has made in a series of interviews in the last week that rigorous study is still necessary. Mr. Navarro, an economist by training, shot back that the information he had collected was “science,” according to the people familiar with what took place.


What do you have to lose? Well - in some cases, your life. At least one couple observed that chloroquine was in the chemicals they use for treating their swimming pool. They both took it. The husband died.

Or, if Dr. Fauci is right and Mr. Navarro is wrong, you could potentially lose your life to COVID-19 or comorbid problems. Because we don't know whether it's efficacious or not.

But that has not stopped the president from recommending it, despite his protestations of "But I'm not a doctor". This is irresponsible.

The Washington Post reports that this particular recommendation of the president's has been encouraged by former mayor Giuliani.

It may be efficacious. But we do not know. Recommending that people take it is not responsible. That's not leadership.
_________________________
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"

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#1651827 - 04/06/20 07:30 AM Re: Coronavirus: how we got to where we are [Re: FalconEddy]
BmC Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/10/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: Bear River, Nova Scotia, Canad...
"Yes, agreed. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world, though - right ?
You would expect and assume that they would be measurably better than everybody else."

A country is as great as it's most despicable, its most deplorable citizens. I just made that up, but it sure sounds about right. Time for the pitchforks to come out folks, or you can leave it to the Covid to handle. It has found a home that it will have a hard time leaving, thanks to Trump and his cult.

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