Page 1 of 1 1
Topic Options
#1664451 - 06/08/20 10:50 AM [solved] Input 1 and 2 sound issue
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Hi everyone,

New here, i'm Laurent from France, i teach physics, play guitar and have a good experience with electronics (effects and amps).

I've been given a beaten up 2009 VS2480DVD, which i have took apart, cleaned, upgraded with a new fan, fresh battery and working IDE hard disk.

The unit boots, and seems to work correctly as far as i see (effects and controls seem fine), but i come from a Tascam 424 mk3 so it may be preposterous assuming i've really tamed the beast.

Anyway, with a mic on channel 1 or 2, i can hear myself speaking (clearly enough to understand the words i say), and adjust the gain alright, but the sound is just crappy, like gated and overdriven. All other channels are fine and clear sounding.

I've tried recording from input 1 to track 6 and the sound is just as bad, so it's not a D/A issue i guess.

Looking at the Service notes (non-DVD version) found here (thanks!), it seems that channels 1 and 2 are sharing various ICs:

- IC2 (4570) on Analog Board
- IC1 (4570), IC2 (4570) and IC3 (AK4528VF).

Did any of you had some similar issue, and what is the likely culprit?

Any tips as well on how to test these with the unit gutted?

Thanks for any input (pun intended)!

Laurent


Edited by LoL Bou (06/17/20 08:18 AM)

Top
#1664492 - 06/08/20 03:22 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden
Hellu. I´m new to this forum too, but i´ve been in here and read and learn a lot from
various "planeteers" trough the years. Thanx a lot fellas !
I´m not new to the VS-2480 though, bought the first one in 2004 and now I have
5 of them
About your problem , what kind of mic do you use? TRS or XLR jack ?
Channel 1 and 2 phantom power on ? Any effects inserted in AUX window ?
"Dynamics" activated in dynamic window ? Gain settings ?
Just a few things to check


Edited by Catweazle (06/08/20 03:56 PM)

Top
#1664495 - 06/08/20 03:29 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Thanks for your reply!

Mic is a SM57. Tried a Beta 58 with same results, both with XLR connectors.

I'll have a try with an active microphone with TRS connector though!

Phantom off, no effect, no aux, no nothing but the mic.

EDIT : same deal with the active mic (Sony ECM-909A).


Edited by LoL Bou (06/08/20 03:32 PM)

Top
#1664501 - 06/08/20 03:54 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden
OK ... Maybe there´s something wrong with input 1 & 2 then \:\(
Try to find a second hand Analog Input Board on "fleabay" ....
Like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roland-Vs-2480-...zMAAOSwdxVcDvmj

Or just live with it and "only" have 14 channel recording at once.
What happens if you plug in a mic in channel 3 and route it to channel 1
and record something? Does it sound like crap when playback ?
( Routing channels is done in EZ ROUTING screen, if you dont know )


Edited by Catweazle (06/08/20 04:09 PM)

Top
#1664511 - 06/08/20 04:32 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
 Quote:
What happens if you plug in a mic in channel 3 and route it to channel 1
and record something?
I've tried the other way around, but did not try this...

I've opened it to get the board off now. Nothing obvious from an eye point of view. Just found a sorta hair coming from a brush i guess, exactly above IC1 in the Jack board... Don't think it can hurt, but who knows?

 Quote:
Or just live with it and "only" have 14 channel recording at once.
This is likely, i don't really know how to test it anyway...

Top
#1664513 - 06/08/20 04:49 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden
You sound like a "handy man" so I think you´ll sort it out ....
And if not, you got it for free (?) so no big loss .... Or ?

Good Luck !

Top
#1664569 - 06/09/20 03:58 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
I thought yesterday that the sound was like a badly biased opamp, and i have the feeling that the A/D converter works fine (digital stuff is rarely intermittent in my experience). I went to bed thinking i would check the power supply caps today.

There is a bunch of Elna caps (47µF/25V) that are used for the +15/-15 supply. Since IC1 and IC2 are fed from the same capacitor network on the jack board, maybe they fail? They're not audio grade, and maybe the quality aint as good for their purpose?

The two involved with IC1 and IC2 (C501 and C502) don't look bulged, though the enveloppe around it is sorta shrinked, as if the cap was bigger inside than the others... Well, it's shrinkier than the other caps. They seem quite easy to remove and check, i'll give it a go (when the school-at-home for the kids is done!)...

Top
#1664579 - 06/09/20 06:57 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden
Well, over time capacitors fade away and die, so it might be the problem ...
A bit tricky to replace surface mounted capacitors ......
I´m not electronically skilled, but I know how to solder and change PCB´s
I´ve changed Fader Board twice in one of my 2480´s and the Jack Board in another.
They also got quieter fans installed

Cheers !


Edited by Catweazle (06/09/20 07:00 AM)

Top
#1664583 - 06/09/20 09:00 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Well, tried changing C501 and C502 : no luck...

Tried recording from input 3 (good sound) into track 1 : no problem.

Putain!


Edited by LoL Bou (06/09/20 09:00 AM)

Top
#1664594 - 06/09/20 10:38 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden
Cool So the problem is somewhere between XLR / TRS input
and patch bay after INPUT MIXER ......
Easy solution : record on track 3 and 4 ( if stereo, keyboard for example )
and klick ´n ´grab and move to track 1 and 2 .
No need to re-patch in EZ ROUTING.

And you got it for free ........ Lucky bastard !

Cheers !

Top
#1664664 - 06/10/20 04:04 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
I've reflowed the solder joint around each opamp shared by both channels 1 and 2, placed the original caps back in place, and decided to call it a day, reassembling the unit.

Same issue again.

Thinking about it, i should have tried the C83/C84 cap network on the analog board while i was at it, with the soldering iron on hand and the card on my desk.

 Quote:
Easy solution : record on track 3 and 4 ( if stereo, keyboard for example )
and klick ´n ´grab and move to track 1 and 2 .


Guess that's the plan indeed!

 Quote:
And you got it for free ........ Lucky bastard !
That will definitely help living with it, but the maniac in me may push me to continue seeking for the solution...

Now let's try and tame it (though i don't really fancy the chances)...

Top
#1664670 - 06/10/20 05:30 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden

[/quote] That will definitely help living with it, but the maniac in me may push me to continue seeking for the solution...

Now let's try and tame it (though i don't really fancy the chances)... [/quote]

I know the feeling ... Hard to be beaten by "dead matter" and stay calm
C´est la vie ....

Good luck and have many happy recordings

Cheers !

Top
#1664681 - 06/10/20 09:05 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
calypso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 746
Loc: mid-Missouri
It seems odd to me that two adjacent inputs are affected. Have you checked all the gain, pad, compressor/expander, EQ, and effects inserts to be sure the previous owner didn't leave some saved changes from the default settings?
_________________________
It's all just ones and zeroes.
Mark W in mid-MO

some music here:
calypso soundcloud

Top
#1664684 - 06/10/20 09:26 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: calypso]
gyorpb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/11/19
Posts: 71
 Originally Posted By: calypso
It seems odd to me that two adjacent inputs are affected.
That isn’t odd at all. A quick look at the schematic tells us that, at the hardware level, the inputs (and outputs!) of the VS are essentially stereo pairs that share a lot of components.

Top
#1664688 - 06/10/20 10:23 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: calypso]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
 Originally Posted By: calypso
Have you checked all the gain, pad, compressor/expander, EQ, and effects inserts to be sure the previous owner didn't leave some saved changes from the default settings?

I guess not : hard disk was dead and it's a fresh new one. In the case these settings are loaded elsewhere, what's the procedure to restore default setting regarding input?

The inputs seem paired indeed, and share some ICs before the patch bay, including the A/D/A converter...

Top
#1664691 - 06/10/20 10:46 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
gyorpb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/11/19
Posts: 71
The A/D/A converter is shared not only between inputs 1 and 2, but also the master outs. If those perform as expected, I would start the investigation in the shared analogue circuits preceding the converter. That’s opamps IC2 on the analogue board, and IC1 and IC2 on the jack board. And their surrounding parts, of course. See if you can inject a clean signal, and trace it to where you detect signal distortion.
Top
#1664697 - 06/10/20 11:10 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: gyorpb]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Thanks for your help! I'll give this a try and post results. Although the converter works in D to A mode, maybe it can be fine in this way, and bad in the other? I'm not a digital tech, more like an anlogue tech...
Top
#1664701 - 06/10/20 12:16 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
calypso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 746
Loc: mid-Missouri
 Originally Posted By: LoL Bou
 Originally Posted By: calypso
Have you checked all the gain, pad, compressor/expander, EQ, and effects inserts to be sure the previous owner didn't leave some saved changes from the default settings?

I guess not : hard disk was dead and it's a fresh new one. In the case these settings are loaded elsewhere, what's the procedure to restore default setting regarding input?

The inputs seem paired indeed, and share some ICs before the patch bay, including the A/D/A converter...



The settings I was asking about are all "project data" - so a new hard drive would eliminate that. I hope you hunt down the issue. Best of luck!
_________________________
It's all just ones and zeroes.
Mark W in mid-MO

some music here:
calypso soundcloud

Top
#1664779 - 06/11/20 04:51 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: calypso]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Tried the Master out. Input 1 and 2 is crap, the others are fine.

That would rule the converter out of the problem, provided it can work correctly in D/A mode and be faulty in A/D mode (if I get the workings correctly)...

Getting close hopefully!

;\)

Top
#1665081 - 06/13/20 03:06 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Ok, i've opened and dismantled the unit again. Using an external power supply (a salvaged one giving clean +15/+5/-15), i have powered both the analog and jack board on my bench.

The problem is there on the analog board already : jack board's ok.t

The scope shows a perfect sinewave on the bottom end, but the top of the sine hits the +15 rail, hence the heavy clipping.

As a matter of fact, the output looks clean, the only problem is it is DC-offset (like +10V).

IC2 looks like the one and only common part in the schematic (power rails test ok). If it fails, it brings the shit in a whole loop, altering both channels.

But i'd rather be sure before trying and swap it...

Top
#1665102 - 06/13/20 08:51 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
gyorpb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/11/19
Posts: 71
Now we’re getting somewhere! Did you check the area for obvious signs of capacitor failure?
Top
#1665252 - 06/14/20 03:46 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: gyorpb]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
No visible signs under the magnifying glass. \:\(

With no signal applied, both NE5532 outputs (IC1-7 and IC3-1) show the same DC voltage of 14.3V.

All other channels have -0.04 on these same outputs...

I don't think the NE5532 are busted. They operate fine, although they amplify some DC as well.

I guess IC2 is blown.

The bias capacitor network (C83-C84//C87-C88//...) is in parallel, so a shorted one would kill all the power rail, right? But all chips get the +15/-15 alright, and OV (or "A" in the schematic) is 0V indeed...

Voltages on Q1, Q2, Q5 and Q6's collectors are -3.5V. On all other channels, it's -5.8V...

I have 4570s on the way (from Wuhan ) , so wait and see?

Unless someone has a better guess?



Edited by LoL Bou (06/14/20 06:56 AM)

Top
#1665426 - 06/16/20 01:07 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
Planeteer


Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 8187
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
Lol Bou, Tu vas bien? Bienvenue sur La Planète!

Félicitations pour votre VS-2480. Désolé pour les problèmes.

I'm fairly well-versed with issues on the VS-2480HD, CD, and DVD systems. Before it was running on OS v2.504 it could be a really nasty pig, especially before Roland released OS v2.01x. OS v1.xxx was fairly buggy, scary, and not all that trustworthy.

However, after some massive growing pains, the Roland development team came through and eventually produced an OS that was stable for the extreme vast majority of users.

Now, I'm speculating your primary issue is with the IC2 #4750G2 Bipolar Op Amp on the ANB. Is that correct? A simple way to have tested for that would have been to have put the unit into TEST MODE, and checked the INPUTS and INPUT LEVELS. But, you're not familiar with how to do THAT yet.

This is actually a GOOD thing since if you have a full hard drive's worth of material, and you select 'test all', or even just test the IDE drive, it ERASES all data from the internal drive. Really cool, huh? NOT!

Anyway, I see you have the op amp on order, but obviously there's a reason WHY the op amp went belly up, correct??? You may want to investigate THAT issue before simply installing it.

Your channels 1 & 2 should work perfectly fine when used with a digital input instead of analog, and this is something you should check into to verify my statement. A Coaxial or TosLink connection, plus a change in EZ Routing will ensure that the correct digital input has been routed properly to inputs one and two.

Note that it will ALSO be important to properly select if the VS-2480DVD will be the master generator of the digital syncing signal, or the EXTERNAL source connection will be the master clocking source.

This will require you to select the proper sample rate when creating the new file/song, as well as selecting either COAXIAL IN or OPTICAL IN if you choose to use the external source as the master digital clocking source.

This is accomplished in the UTILITY drop down menu > PROJECT PARAMETERS You'll see Digital I/O on the left, and Master Clock on the right. Under Master Clock INT (internal) is selected by default, but YOU need to choose whichever BOX for the connection you made from the external source system that's supplying the master clock...COAXIAL IN or OPTICAL IN.

It should come back with a COAXIAL or OPTICAL IN SYNC message.

Hope this gets you a bit further.

Envoyez-moi un message privé, et je vous enverrai les informations pour entrer en mode test.

. . Falcon
_________________________
. . . but, what do I know?

Top
#1665439 - 06/16/20 09:34 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: FalconEddy]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
Merci for the warm welcome Falcon!

The version installed on the machine is 2.5. I'll have it updated when it will be back in working order (and re-assembled!).

I can't test software stuff now because i have all the bords separated from each other (that would be like testing the brakes with just the pedal in hand ).

 Quote:
Your channels 1 & 2 should work perfectly fine when used with a digital input instead of analog, and this is something you should check into to verify my statement. A Coaxial or TosLink connection, plus a change in EZ Routing will ensure that the correct digital input has been routed properly to inputs one and two.
I've already tested playing back good recorded tracks on channel 1, and got them fine on Monitor and Master out, wouldn't that draw to the same conclusion?

I have to say that I feel more confortable handling the boards and testing components than I am setting a recording... \:\(

 Quote:
Anyway, I see you have the op amp on order, but obviously there's a reason WHY the op amp went belly up, correct??? You may want to investigate THAT issue before simply installing it.
They do fail, and since it has been sitting in a dusty and somehow moisty basement for some time, it may have died when i powered it back to life? On top of that, it seems that the left one of the 3 screws on the top panel had been mixed, and instead of a fine M3 threaded one, it was a coarse one : that gives metal burrs which can fall and short stuff. ..


IC2 is about to be desoldered. I'll see if the DC offset stays on, and test the surrounding voltages to check for any other abnormality...

Stay tuned!

Top
#1665563 - 06/17/20 08:26 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
SOLVED!

I removed IC2 and clean the pads on the PCB. DC still on IC1-7 and IC3-1.

Removed IC1 and IC3, placed sockets. Voltages are fine.

Placed new NE5532A (TI), no voltage issue.

Soldered in a NE5532A in place of the 4570 (IC2). I actually doubt the chips i have coming in from China...

Works like a charm, clean signal on both channels! My guess is one of the ICs died, impacting the other two...

Reassembled the unit, test it with headphones : no noise, no hiss, good gain control.

Now the unit is finally in FULL working order.

BTW, the PC board quality is really good, unsoldering went easy...

Thanks everyone for the help and sympathy!


Edited by LoL Bou (06/17/20 08:27 AM)

Top
#1665586 - 06/17/20 10:52 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: LoL Bou]
calypso Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 746
Loc: mid-Missouri
_________________________
It's all just ones and zeroes.
Mark W in mid-MO

some music here:
calypso soundcloud

Top
#1665591 - 06/17/20 11:04 AM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: calypso]
Catweazle Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockholm Sweden



There you go Mr. Handy Man ! Well done

Let´s hope the built in DVD player works fine too ......

Cheers !

Top
#1665642 - 06/17/20 02:53 PM Re: Input 1 and 2 sound issue [Re: Catweazle]
LoL Bou Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 06/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Normandy, France
 Quote:
Let´s hope the built in DVD player works fine too ......
\:\( Didn't try it, but I think i can handle a swap now...

Top
Page 1 of 1 1


Hop to:
Shout Box

Who's Online
5 registered (5 invisible) and 13 anonymous users online.
Top Posters
52339
Jazzooo
45132
Al
40001
Silversmith
39393
Timster
32942
Tom Mix
32423
Ismellelephant
29251
Popmann
29082
gonzo
29065
Mooseboy
28771
NOK
27391
moontan
27115
C Jo Go
26521
Doughboy
25803
flatcat
23765
Marty Gilman
23691
paulb
23317
RGR
21692
fabulousthunderbird
21125
fonts
20909
Gretsch 6120
19598
vvvm
19535
Vanillagrits
19435
String Jammer
19419
glensimonds
18923
T57Strat
18894
GAMBLE
18791
Jammer
18114
SteveW
17932
JazAddict
17600
GAWZDigitalUnderground
17522
Geo
17284
Hano
16566
Slabraton
16383
Dave Morris
16267
Liquidirt
16175
Delso
15870
slotz
15821
LakeStone Karl
15583
Milkman
Forum Stats
21122 Members
26 Forums
141261 Topics
1630671 Posts

Max Online: 290 @ 11/19/19 07:32 PM
Newest Members
Papagottagroove, Fax Machine, Benson, UnderTheStairs, FFrancis65
21122 Registered Users

Generated in 0.013 seconds in which 0.003 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Zlib compression disabled.