VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880

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#1707416 - 01/07/21 08:08 PM VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880
NLN NLN Space Cadet Registered: 01/07/21 Posts: 5	The drive shows up in the 1880 as SCSI 0 but when attempting to back up I get a "No Drive" connected message. Any ideas? Thank you.
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#1707424 - 01/07/21 08:40 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: NLN]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Was this combination of 1880 and cd drive working before, or is this combination a new setup? Is either burner or VS a new device (for you), or a new addition? Is the cd burner the only thing connected to the scsi port? If so, do you have a terminator block connected on the 2nd port on the back of the unit, or is there onboard termination working and set on? If the cd burner is a new addition for you, have you checked to be sure that your 1880 has the latest (last) os update? Check the complete os version of your 1880 by switching on the unit with the power switch on back, while holding down the Track Select and Status buttons for channel one until the version number is displayed. It should show a digit, dot and 3 decimal places (x.xxx). You can get out of this page by turning off the power switch. Normal boot sequence only shows 2 decimal places - you need all 3 to know the version. You can download that os update I mentioned from the roland support pages. If you need it, you will also need a way to upload the files. Let us know these details and anything else you find out and maybe we can give you more than general suggestions. Edited by uptildawn (01/07/21 08:41 PM) _________________________ uptildawn
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#1707566 - 01/08/21 02:21 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
NLN NLN Space Cadet Registered: 01/07/21 Posts: 5	Your response is greatly appreciated. It is a new combination. I have had the 1880 and used it with a now-dead burner for for a few decades. The burner died. This burner is new but looks to be in great shape. It is the only scsi devise connected. It has a terminator switch on back set to "on" and mode set to "off". I have not checked for the latest update and will do so shortly. Does the update destroy the memory on the internal drive partition? (Obviously, I do not hold anyone responsible for what happens, I have experienced terminal crashes before because a butterfly flapped its wings somewhere.) Just curious. Hopefully I only need to update it. How to do that, I will delve into once I confirm I am out of date. It was the latest model when I got it. Seeing as how the 1824 et al. came out later, that might be the problem. Thank you.
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#1707594 - 01/08/21 03:36 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: NLN]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	If you never have updated it since it was new, then you probably need to update it. The only os Roland lists now for all of the VS recorders is the last version (they only released stable versions, by the way) for that model. If nothing else, download it and save it somewhere on your pc (there should be mac and zip versions, too). Eventually, it may be the only thing you need to make the burner work, as the burner may not be compatible with the earliest os (or os'). The update should not destroy anything on the hard drive, nor any effects patches, etc. It's always advisable to backup your drive first, but obviously you would need the update in order to make a backup in that case, so you'd have to trust the process. I never had an os update ruin anything on the 3 VS recorders I've owned since 1996 or 1997.... You may want to get a passive terminator block for 5.00-10.00 (US) and see if that helps. It could be that the built in terminator is not wired up (I've seen that before). I don't know what the mode switch would do, but you might do a google search for the manual of that burner and see what gives. You may need to actually look at the internal burner to discover what brand and model it is. Roland used at least a couple different brands in their Roland-branded CDR-II. One they successfully used often is the Plextor 1210TS. If you replace the terminator with a block, turn off the internal switch on the burner unit. Let us know if you run into issues figuring out how to install the updated os. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1707913 - 01/09/21 04:14 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
NLN NLN Space Cadet Registered: 01/07/21 Posts: 5	The system turned out to be 1.002. Old as the hills, I am guessing. Looked over Roland's page. Looks like I will have to pick up a usb ZiP drive, connect it to my twelve-year-old Macbook (my only computer), get the .hqx file onto a 100mb disk, put the disk in my aged but functioning SCSI Zip drive, hook it up to the VS and sacrifice something upon an alter. All the help and guidance has been much appreciated. Hopefully this will work. Update with non-pithy but hopefully celebratory prose to follow should all go as planned. Thank you.
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#1707915 - 01/09/21 04:15 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: NLN]
NLN NLN Space Cadet Registered: 01/07/21 Posts: 5	That or find a SCSi to USB adapter for the ZIp. Cheers!
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#1709767 - 01/15/21 02:40 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: NLN]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	I am having the very same problem with my VS1680: Plextor 12/4/32 shows up in the booting routine and in DriveCheck, but upon choosing Cdr-Backup or Cdr-Recover I get "No CD-R Drive !". Thanks for the questions, uptildawn! I´ll answer them here: - VS1680 has firmware 2.008 (which I think is ok?) - this setup is new. My old burner had issues, so I bought a used unit with the Plextor (SCSI 0) and a 40GB harddrive (SCSI 1) in it. It´s externally terminated. The seller used it exactly like this with his 1680 (he says). When removing the external terminator, I get the same result - except the external hard drive isn´t recognized. Help! _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1709776 - 01/15/21 03:00 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Bonus question: If updating the VS1680, do I choose v.2024 or v.250 (even though i don´t have a VS8F-3)? _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1709777 - 01/15/21 03:04 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	I don't know what "firmware version" you speak of, Klaus. I only know the operating system version (os) that Roland supplies in their support pages. The last available os for the 1680 is 2.500 which added support for the vsf3 effects card. The last version needed for the 1680 is 2.024. Both of these are available for download in pc and mac formats in both zip and smf forms found in the usa here: https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/vs-1680/updates_drivers/ Version 2.008 - if it is the os version you see when powering on while holding down the Track and Status buttons over channel 1 - is a very old version. It is possible the cd drive you have is not fully compatible with that very old os version. IF this is the case, I would suggest that you update your 1680 to os version 2.024 - or to version 2.500 if you use the 3-version fx card. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709778 - 01/15/21 03:07 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Originally Posted By: klaus dibbelt Bonus question: If updating the VS1680, do I choose v.2024 or v.250 (even though i don´t have a VS8F-3)? Use version 2.024. 2.500 doesn't add anything to the equation beyond vsf3 support, as far as I could ever find out. You might want to download and save both versions to your computer for future possible use. At any rate, save whatever version you end up downloading for the future possible need of reinstalling the update for whatever reason - at a time when Roland may have abandoned the VS completely and no longer supply the os update files. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709780 - 01/15/21 03:11 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Thanks a lot, uptildawn! Yeah, I meant the OS-version. I found your link to the SMF tool in another thread, and I downloaded the OS-update files from Roland. I hope this will help! _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1709789 - 01/15/21 03:39 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	I hope it does too. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709821 - 01/15/21 04:32 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	VS1680 is successfully updated to Os v.2024 $\:\)$ Strange new phenomenon: - When the external SCSI unit (with Plextor and Harddisk in it) is connected and terminated (same as it used to be before), the VS power up routine freezes when it gets to SCSI1 (the external harddisk). - I removed the external terminator. Now the harddisk isn´t recognized, but the Plextor is and it is burning a CD-backup as we speak. Weird, isn´t it? Maybe there is some internal terminator switched on? _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1709838 - 01/15/21 06:02 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	I think so....... i know i mentioned that somewhere recently..... Anyway, maybe you need to set whatever terminator you are using to a different ID. The VS uses ID 7 by default and they say to keep it that way. Make sure your external device(s) are set to something lower than 7. Or maybe somebody changed the ID of the VS..... go into the setting and make sure it's set to 7. OH! I see now - you're talking about the external hard disk, not internal. That must be why you can burn a cd now - I was scratching my head over that comment. Same rules still apply - only terminate the last device in the chain. Since the 1680 is 7, think of the device chain being numbered from outside - in... I usually just use ID 0 and 1 for my CD Rack (burner and hard disk in one unit). If using the external terminator block, you might try switching the VS cable and the terminator block...... or if your unit has 4 connectors, you might have the 1680 cable and/or the terminator in the wrong connectors. Edited by uptildawn (01/15/21 06:17 PM) _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709840 - 01/15/21 06:05 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Glad you got the machine updated, by the way. So many people run into issues doing the updates for one reason or another. It's nice not to have to chase down an os update issue. $\:\)$ _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709843 - 01/15/21 06:11 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Originally Posted By: klaus dibbelt ... - When the external SCSI unit (with Plextor and Harddisk in it) is connected and terminated (same as it used to be before), the VS power up routine freezes when it gets to SCSI1 (the external harddisk). What is the unit you're using that has both cd drive and hard disk in it? Are you using a CD Rack, or a Song Vault, or something homegrown? You will want to check that termination is set ONLY on the last device and not both. If you're not sure of the order of devices, you may be able to tell from the way the show up in the drive screen, or you may have to physically remove the case cover to trace the internal cables. Termination needs to be ONLY at the end of the chain. I would probably put the burner last in the scsi ID chain, although I am not sure it matters - but maybe could affect which drives you can burn cds from, although IIRC, you may only be able to burn cds from files stored on the internal drive... or am I mistaken? It's been so long..... Maybe you have the VS cable plugged into the wrong connector on the external device. Are there 4 connectors (like on the CD Rack)? I don't remember what the order should be, because I ended up removing two of them back when I did the mod on the CD Rack in order to fit an external hard disk unit into the (formerly) Glyph drive tray area. Edited by uptildawn (01/15/21 06:20 PM) _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709866 - 01/15/21 07:53 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Too bad we can´t post pics here.... It´s just one of these old gray computer housings. Sorry, I don´t know what you mean by CD rack nor by Song Vault. It´s got two external ID switches (which indeed are connected - one to the burner, one to the hard disc). They are working - I am able to change the IDs. It came with the burner being 0 and the hard disc 1. It´s got two SCSI connectors/sockets which - if I am not mistaken - are interchangeable. Anyway, physically, the internal SCSI cable goes to the hard disc first, and from there to the burner (if that matters?). I don´t know much about the jumpers and internal terminator. There was a jumper on - what according to the print on it seemed to be - the termination pins of the burner. I removed that one, but it didn´t change anything. I also (in the housing) disconnected the burner, and I disconnected the hard disc. Nothing really changed. Anyway, the problem remains: - With the external termination, the SCSI search freezes when it arrives at the ID of the hard disc. - Without the external termination, the hard disc isn´t even recognized. I really appreciate your efforts a lot, uptildawn. I guess this isn´t exactly a VS issue but a SCSI issue, though. Maybe I should find myself someone in real life who can take a look at the jumpers and stuff. _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1709882 - 01/15/21 08:24 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	It seems as though you are at least fully capable of taking the unit apart, looking at and tracing connections and going through a logical set of troubleshooting steps - I applaud you for that, really I do. Is it possible for you to disconnect the burner and hd and then only connect one or the other to the vs scsi cable - probably by connecting the hd or burner to the scsi port on the case in order to connect the vs cable? And thus being able to try and troubleshoot just the hd or the burner and minimize the number of devices and connections in the process? Maybe that's what you already described doing and I have simply misread your last response. If so, my apologies. But my point is, I would want to disconnect everything possible and then only connect the hd to the scsi port of the 1680 to see if I could get it to recognize and access the hd. I would want to try every combination of jumper settings available on the hd, one at a time, (even if I have the diagram that shows the jumper(s) and settings) to see if I can get the 1680 to not only identify it, but to access it and copy between it and the internal drive. OH! Be sure to set the hard drive jumper to MASTER and not slave or cable select..... I believe this is a must for the VS to work with it. I would also want to identify the make/model of the hd by a visual inspection and an internet search for its specs, in order to determine if it is an appropriate drive for the 1680 to work with - maybe it's incompatible, maybe it's dead, maybe it's too slow, or too modern, or too fast, or whatever. If the burner DOES work, then that means the internal cabling to the burner works - can I swap the burner and hd cables at least in order to confirm whether or not there might be a problem with the hd cable? By the way - you might try swapping the connections on the external scsi connectors to see if they are indeed interchangeable. I recall having to do so on at least one occasion in the past. I've used at least 3 different burner/case designs with both a 1680 and 880 before, so I have run up against a few head scratchers. The CD Rack and Song Vault are two 2-bay scsi case designs in which cd burners and hard drives can be used simultaneously with the VS recorder. Not all Song Vaults were 2-drive units. Some were cd only, or dvd/cd only, or hd only. The CD Rack can b3e found with the Roland branding and without the Roland branding. The cd burner in the Roland-branded unit I have is the Plextor 1210ts or something like that - I believe it's the same as you described as far as read/write speeds. It's hd bay was originally outfitted with a drive tray from Glyph. Their trays and hard drives were quite expensive by my tastes and it was many years before I decided to just remove the Glyph hardware and install a cheap case and tray assembly that had dimensions that fit in the Rack. I had to remove two of the four scsi connectors on the rear panel to make this work, but now I have a modded CD Rack that can use standard 3.5" IDE PATA hard drives and CF an/or SD flash cards, depending on which drive tray I put in the main unit. It's functional, looks a bit odd, but is all in one. I use a physical passive terminator block because the original CD Rack case terminator switches are disconnected... although I do have the ID switches active. Edited by uptildawn (01/15/21 08:32 PM) _________________________ uptildawn
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#1709990 - 01/16/21 04:23 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
NLN NLN Space Cadet Registered: 01/07/21 Posts: 5	Success! Updated the firmware on the 1880 and the CDRII works like a charm. The process: Tracked down a USB zip drive. Downloaded the Roland hqx file onto the Mac. Used my SCSI Zip connected to the 1880 to format a 100mb disk. Inserted 1880 formatted disk into usb Zip connected to Mac. Moved prg file from Mac to zip disk. Inserted zip disk in SCSI Zip drive connected to 1880. Powered up drive and 1880. 1880 found the update. Answered "yes." Rebooted when told. Connected CD-RII... and magic. Backing up as I type. Many thanks to uptildawn and VSplanet.
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#1710020 - 01/16/21 06:25 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: NLN]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	AWESOME SUCCESS, NLN!! Thanks for reporting back and detailing the process, too. And thanks for letting us hijack your thread. $\:\)$ _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710031 - 01/16/21 08:55 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	G´morning uptildawn, it´s great to have someone who helps me thinking here! thank you so much! I´m going to try a couple of things today, but there´s one thing that seems to fly in the face of any logical troubleshooting: The fact that - as far as the hard disc is concerned - this setup worked before the update, and now it doesn´t. only two options come to mind: Either the hard disk went belly up during the half hour that it took me to update the VS (the chance of that is pretty slim, isn´t it?). Or the new OS doesn´t support the hard disk (well, the former owner had the same OS, and it worked there...). Here´s something else that came to mind: Didn´t SCSI devices require an external "SCSI controller"? I mean to remember that e.g. the first VS-CD-burner (called QVC or something) was in a housing with a circuit board with a lot of electronics on it... _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710032 - 01/16/21 08:56 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Originally Posted By: uptildawn AWESOME SUCCESS, NLN!! Thanks for reporting back and detailing the process, too. And thanks for letting us hijack your thread. $\:\)$ Great, NLN. Glad you made it! I hope you don´t mind us trying to solve my problem in your thread? _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710035 - 01/16/21 09:40 AM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	So, to summarize: No matter what I try, the problem persists: With the external terminator, the VS1680 freezes during the SCSI search when it reaches the very SCSI-ID I have given the hard disk (which, I think, allows the conclusion that there is no problem with the ID-jumpering). Without the external terminator, the VS doesn´t see the hard disk at all. (On the pro side, the CD-burner always shows up - well, except when I disconnect it, of course). What I have tried now (without any of it making any difference): - Swapped the external SCSI-connectors - Changed the ID´s of the two SCSI devices in multiple ways - Internally disconnected the SCSI cable from the CD-burner so that only the hard disk was connected - Internally disconnected the SCSI cable from the hard disk so that only the CD-burner was connected - Connected the hard disk to the internal SCSI cable plug that used to be on the CD-burner. Quote: OH! Be sure to set the hard drive jumper to MASTER and not slave or cable select..... I believe this is a must for the VS to work with it. Uhm ok. How do I do that? Using the jumpers? This is the chart on the hard disk housing: Edited by klaus dibbelt (01/16/21 09:45 AM) _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710056 - 01/16/21 02:37 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
dkfackler dkfackler Planeteer Registered: 04/24/06 Posts: 705 Loc: Coventry, OH, planet Thulcandr...	Isn't the Master/Slave thing IDE, not SCSI? From my early Mac days, I recall manufacturers stating something like "(device name here) needs to be the last device in the SCSI chain to operate properly." We often had to swap things around and twiddle SCSI addresses to find the best combination. IIRC, my former 1680 would freeze as yours does on startup if the CD drive was attached. The solution for me was as follows: 1680 is ON CD drive is attached, but powered down. Save project Now, press Shift-Stop(shut/eject) You'll probably be asked whether you want to shut down and then whether to save the current project. After answering that, you see a screen giving you the choice of restart or turn power off. At this point turn CD power ON, then Shift-Play to restart. That always worked for me. BTW, that procedure is the only way for my 2480s to recognize the SCSI2SD board. I miss the 1680. There were some things it could do that the 2xxx model VS machines can't. Edited by dkfackler (01/16/21 02:45 PM)
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#1710058 - 01/16/21 03:15 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: dkfackler]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	An alternative to dkfackler's shift/play to restart method is to go into the utility menu and choose Drive Select. After having powered up the 1680 by itself (with scsi device turned off) - thereby avoiding the freeze problem at boot - then turn on the scsi device and go into the 1680 utility menu to choose drive select. This will rescan the scsi bus without having to turn the 1680 off. It may not solve the freeze issue, but it will allow the 1680 to fully boot, initially. I use this method all the time to keep the noise down when I wasn't using the burner or the external hard drive for something. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710061 - 01/16/21 03:26 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: dkfackler]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Originally Posted By: dkfackler Isn't the Master/Slave thing IDE, not SCSI? From my early Mac days, I recall manufacturers stating something like "(device name here) needs to be the last device in the SCSI chain to operate properly." We often had to swap things around and twiddle SCSI addresses to find the best combination. Oh, I hadn't even considered that this hard drive is actually a scsi drive - and not an pata drive in a scsi enclosure! I am unfamiliar enough with scsi drives to not recognize their labeling of the connector pins, which is what it appears you have shown us Klaus. Is this a scsi hard drive and not a pata drive? A pata (ide) drive has a set of pins that are detached from the main connector pins, which have jumpers to set for master/slave/cable select, etc. This diagram you posted looks to me to be the pin assignment of the main connector and not something that has adjustable/removable jumpers. I appreciate the large detailed picture more than you might imagine! But I can't tell what type of drive it is from just this one picture. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710062 - 01/16/21 03:32 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: dkfackler]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Hey dkfackler, and thanks for the suggestion! I´ve tried it, but it doesn´t work here. When restarting that way the VS1680 freezes just the same as it does when powering it on normally. $\:\($ _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710063 - 01/16/21 03:41 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Originally Posted By: uptildawn An alternative to dkfackler's shift/play to restart method is to go into the utility menu and choose Drive Select. After having powered up the 1680 by itself (with scsi device turned off) - thereby avoiding the freeze problem at boot - then turn on the scsi device and go into the 1680 utility menu to choose drive select. This will rescan the scsi bus without having to turn the 1680 off. It may not solve the freeze issue, but it will allow the 1680 to fully boot, initially. I use this method all the time to keep the noise down when I wasn't using the burner or the external hard drive for something. Yes, I had tried this also. However, since during Drive Select and Drive Check the VS searches the SCSI IDs just the way it does when powering up, this gives me the same result. I was naturally assuming that the hard disk was SCSI - but I still think it is. I´ll post more pics in a few minutes. _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710069 - 01/16/21 03:58 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	So this is the full label on the hard disk: And these are the pins where the jumpers go (and which the diagram refers to): Tthe cables on top come from the external IDswitch (which I have confirmed to be working fine; but I also removed the cables and jumpered the ID with actual jumpers. The gray jumper is "Autostart" (removing it makes no difference). The flimsy black and red cables feed an LED on the front of the housing. Edited by klaus dibbelt (01/16/21 04:00 PM)
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#1710072 - 01/16/21 04:05 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Originally Posted By: klaus dibbelt So, to summarize: No matter what I try, the problem persists: ... What I have tried now (without any of it making any difference): - Swapped the external SCSI-connectors - Changed the ID´s of the two SCSI devices in multiple ways - Internally disconnected the SCSI cable from the CD-burner so that only the hard disk was connected - Internally disconnected the SCSI cable from the hard disk so that only the CD-burner was connected - Connected the hard disk to the internal SCSI cable plug that used to be on the CD-burner... Klaus, I honestly don't understand why you can't get the 1680 to recognize/operate the hard drive. Have you tried going into the drive initialize utility and seeing if it shows up there as an unformatted drive? Do be very careful to not tell the 1680 to reinitialize its own internal drive in the process! I'm trying to follow the succession of what worked and didn't work since you first posted about this: 1- you said that your old burner went belly-up and so you are trying to get a replacement combination cd burner/hard drive to work 2- You say that the previous owner used all 3 of these things together - 1680, cd drive and hard drive. What evidence do you have that this is true? Is it possible the seller just said so in order to make the sale? (not to disparage the seller). I have major doubts about the claim, because you also discovered that the 1680 os version was very ancient - 2.008. 3- From the progress you made after installing the more current os (2.024), I gather that when you first bought the dual drive unit that the cd burner wasn't able to burn discs from the 1680, since you say that it DOES now burn discs after the update. 4- You said at the same time that you installed the os update, that the hard drive isn't recognized if the terminator block is removed. Does this meant that the hard drive worked with version 2.008 os, even though the cd burner did not? You never really spoke of the hard drive having issues before. 5- You say that with the terminator block removed from the unit, the cd burner is functioning and burning discs....... That tells me that the cd burner has its own termination and it is turned on. If the hard drive is routed after the cd burner, then it would not work properly, since it comes after the terminator. I am no expert in scsi devices, but it is my assumption that terminating ONLY the last device in a scsi chain is essential to the correct operation of all scsi devices in a multi-device chain. 6- You most recently said - The fact that - as far as the hard disc is concerned - this setup worked before the update, and now it doesn´t. Either the hard disk went belly up during the half hour that it took me to update the VS (the chance of that is pretty slim, isn´t it?). Or the new OS doesn´t support the hard disk (well, the former owner had the same OS, and it worked there...). END QUOTE Not to be picky, but the setup did not work before the update - since the cd burner did not work at the time. You didn't mention whether or not the hard drive worked at that time in your posting. You only say that the hard drive worked before the update, after having installed the update. Can you confirm that the hard drive actually was working before you did the os update? Or are you assuming it must have worked, because the original owner appears to have used it successfully with the old 2.008 os installed in the 1680? It appears to me that you might have made some assumptions about this "new" dual drive unit that you had not had time to confirm completely before posting for advice about the cd burner. But I don't want to put words in your mouth - I am simply attempting to follow your troubleshooting process to hopefully arrive at a successful conclusion to your dilemma. _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710074 - 01/16/21 04:07 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Sorry, you posted with pics while I was still typing, so our posts crossed. I am looking at your last post now and will comment later... _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710077 - 01/16/21 04:14 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
uptildawn uptildawn Planeteer Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 9073 Loc: on land	Originally Posted By: klaus dibbelt So this is the full label on the hard disk: Yes - this looks like it must be an actual scsi drive, since I don't see any telltale indications of it being a pata drive. Plus, it does appear to say it's a scsi drive up near the top of the label. Originally Posted By: klaus dibbelt And these are the pins where the jumpers go (and which the diagram refers to): Tthe cables on top come from the external IDswitch (which I have confirmed to be working fine; but I also removed the cables and jumpered the ID with actual jumpers. The gray jumper is "Autostart" (removing it makes no difference). The flimsy black and red cables feed an LED on the front of the housing. This looks like jury-rigged wiring to me, with the scsi drive's main connector having been connected via jumper wires and not plugged into a female connector in the usual fashion. It might help a lot to see more pictures of the entire insides of the enclosure, maybe with everything connected as it was when you bought it. This is interesting at the very least... _________________________ uptildawn
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#1710085 - 01/16/21 04:41 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Thanks for your patience, uptildawn, and sorry for having been unclear. I´ll just answer your questions, ok? Originally Posted By: uptildawn Klaus, I honestly don't understand why you can't get the 1680 to recognize/operate the hard drive. Have you tried going into the drive initialize utility and seeing if it shows up there as an unformatted drive? Do be very careful to not tell the 1680 to reinitialize its own internal drive in the process! Yes, I tried that, and no, it doesn´t show up. Quote: I'm trying to follow the succession of what worked and didn't work since you first posted about this: 1- you said that your old burner went belly-up and so you are trying to get a replacement combination cd burner/hard drive to work Yes. Quote: 2- You say that the previous owner used all 3 of these things together - 1680, cd drive and hard drive. What evidence do you have that this is true? Is it possible the seller just said so in order to make the sale? (not to disparage the seller). I have major doubts about the claim, because you also discovered that the 1680 os version was very ancient - 2.008. Hang on, obviously I caused a misunderstanding: The VS1680 is and always has been mine. I just bought the CD-drive and HardDisk in the housing and with the cables. My VS1680 used to be OS2.008, and upon your suggestion I updated it to 2.024. I also asked the former owner about the OS of his VS1680, and he said it was 2.02 (I guess he just went by the number that shows up when powering up the VS). Quote: 3- From the progress you made after installing the more current os (2.024), I gather that when you first bought the dual drive unit that the cd burner wasn't able to burn discs from the 1680, since you say that it DOES now burn discs after the update. Correct - that was the issue I had initially. The update fixed this. Quote: 4- You said at the same time that you installed the os update, that the hard drive isn't recognized if the terminator block is removed. Does this meant that the hard drive worked with version 2.008 os, even though the cd burner did not? You never really spoke of the hard drive having issues before. Yes - this is the really odd part. Initially, the hard drive did show up, it did work; I could select it and use it. The burner was recognized but when I tried to burn or recover, the VS changed its mind and told me "No CD Drive!" After the update, this changed. With the external terminator removed, the hard drive isn´t recognized at all. With the external terminator on, the VS freezes when it checks the ID that the hard drive is set to. E.g. I set the hard drive to ID three, the VS screen read: "ID. " (checking 0) "ID.." (1) "ID..." (2) and then it freezes. Quote: 5- You say that with the terminator block removed from the unit, the cd burner is functioning and burning discs....... Yes, it does - with or without the terminator block. Quote: That tells me that the cd burner has its own termination and it is turned on. I concluded that much, too. Now, everything I did and tried today, I tried with the CD-burner being disconnected in order to be able to focus on the hard drive. So, the internal SCSI is just connected to the hard drive. I guess that renders the jumpering, ID and termination of the CD-burner irrelevant - correct me if I am wrong. Quote: If the hard drive is routed after the cd burner, then it would not work properly, since it comes after the terminator. I am no expert in scsi devices, but it is my assumption that terminating ONLY the last device in a scsi chain is essential to the correct operation of all scsi devices in a multi-device chain. I agree. So the hard drive alone should work when being internally terminated with a jumper, or with the terminator block attached to the house, right? But it doesn´t. Quote: Not to be picky, but the setup did not work before the update - since the cd burner did not work at the time. You didn't mention whether or not the hard drive worked at that time in your posting. You only say that the hard drive worked before the update, after having installed the update. Yes, again sorry for any confusion. I hope I clarified above. Quote: Can you confirm that the hard drive actually was working before you did the os update? Yes, I did see it working with my own eyes. $\:\)$ Quote: It appears to me that you might have made some assumptions about this "new" dual drive unit that you had not had time to confirm completely before posting for advice about the cd burner. But I don't want to put words in your mouth - I am simply attempting to follow your troubleshooting process to hopefully arrive at a successful conclusion to your dilemma. Again, thanks for your patience and your help! It´s greatly appreciated. Also, again sorry for any confusion caused! I hope I could clarify now: By my own experience and observation, before the update there were problems with the burner, the hard drive worked fine; after the update burner works, but there are issues as described with the hard drive. [/quote] _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710086 - 01/16/21 04:46 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: uptildawn]
klaus dibbelt klaus dibbelt Planeteer Registered: 03/19/02 Posts: 8247 Loc: erzhausen, germany, europe	Originally Posted By: uptildawn This looks like jury-rigged wiring to me, with the scsi drive's main connector having been connected via jumper wires and not plugged into a female connector in the usual fashion. It might help a lot to see more pictures of the entire insides of the enclosure, maybe with everything connected as it was when you bought it. This is interesting at the very least... No, uptildawn, this isn´t the main SCSI connector. The 50 pin SCSI port is connected to the flatband cable with the 50pin connector. I will try and post more pics. $\:\)$ _________________________ "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there." (Rumi)
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#1710094 - 01/16/21 05:02 PM Re: VS-CD-RII shows up in Drive Select but is "No Drive" in CDR Back Up of 1880 [Re: klaus dibbelt]
dkfackler dkfackler Planeteer Registered: 04/24/06 Posts: 705 Loc: Coventry, OH, planet Thulcandr...	Does the enclosure have a pushbutton SCSI address switch? Admittedly grasping at straws here, but you might try this: Disconnect the enclosure switch(make note of which wire goes on what pin) from the drive and set it to an unused address ID. VS is commonly set to 7, so don't use that. With a VOM, determine which leads on the switch have continuity for the SCSI ID chosen above. Write this down. Use jumpers to replicate the continuities determined in the previous step. Connect and try. Keep trying jumper configs until it either works or you run out of IDs. Just a thought. ~dk
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