#1731082 - 05/19/21 06:41 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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gmskyhook
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Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 58
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uptildawn,
Yes, that's exactly what I trried: "shutting down completely and then powering back on again."
I have not gotten the "No DRV" message since installing the SD Card adaptor last week.
Saturday I am trying the CF Adaptor route again.
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#1731199 - 05/20/21 02:37 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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JohnM
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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 4698
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
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Thanks for the clarification. 
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#1731521 - 05/21/21 06:20 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: JohnM]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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QUOTE: (My own #1730559 - 05/17/21 12:50 PM ) I decided to buy the very adapters linked to way back in the 12th post in gmskyhook's reply showing which cf and sd adapters gmskyhook bought. I want to test both of them and compare tests against the version I have and bought maybe 10 years ago.
I should have them in hand before the end of the week and will report my testing as soon as I can after getting them. uptildawn
These are the adapters:
------------------
So, I just got these today and ran a quick test. Here’s what I found so far:
1- The sd card adapter is configured with the card slot upside down!
2- The slot is spring loaded, so no mistaking when the card is fully inserted – MAYBE – a nice touch, if working properly and the card is inserted fully – needs testing, because…
3- When booted, the vs wanted to initialize the sd card – this is the card I’ve been testing with and already has a SONG file on it. So, I just switch off, to preserve the file.
4- I placed the sd card back in the original sd adapter that I know works and the vs boots into the song file without hesitation.
5- CONCLUSION in this first test – something is not right with the new sd adapter – more testing is needed. The adapter design is very different than my good one, but appears to have the proper blank pin relative to the marked pin 1 (one).
A second, parallel test, was using the new cf adapter, with the same sd card placed in the cf/sd adapter I already have been using. The vs booted right off and loaded the song file with no complaints.
Next, will be some testing with the new cf card – a Transcend 8GB 133x – Initial results indicate that the vs hangs on boot at the ‘setup ide’ stage. This is with the new cf card and the new cf adapter (which I already noted is working with the sd/cf adapter). Something isn’t right there, for sure.
More later…
Edited by uptildawn (05/21/21 06:22 PM)
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uptildawn
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#1731531 - 05/21/21 07:11 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Test 2 – cf 8GB 133x Transcend card
1- will not get past the ‘setup ide’ stage of booting in the 880.
2- It will, however boot all the way up to ‘initialize drv’ in the 1680… and of course, will be formatted, once I decide to do so… but this doesn’t help the 880 testing.
3- HOWEVER – I ran the same test with a Transcend 8GB class 4 SDHC card (with the sd/cf adapter – and the 880 booted right up and wanted to format/initialize the sd card without complaint.
4- This tells me that the 880 doesn’t have an issue with a drive that’s too big (relative to its 4GB limit), but that it has a problem with this very standard, old-speed CF card. I have no clue why there’s a problem there. Evidently, I should have bought and will end up buying a 4GB CF card to be sure and probably more than one brand – to find out.
I haven’t even approached the real test yet – that of creating/storing a 880 song, transferring it to the pc via vswe and then rebooting/reloading into the 880 - without losing the song and having to reinitialize. I suspect that I won’t even have to transfer anything to the pc first, but simply power completely off, remove and reseat the caddy and then try to reboot the 880 to find out if it insists on reinitializing the card.
I will have to run a series of tests and compile the results – all with the sd card for this week – including both old and new cards, both old and new sd adapters, both old and new cf adapters incorporating the sd/cf adapter in order to use the sd card with a cf adapter tray.
More to come…..
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uptildawn
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#1731582 - 05/21/21 11:35 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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JohnM
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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 4698
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
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Thank You for the updates.
I stated one possible reason, that the flash cycles on flash
media is not infinite, but this is probably not the issue, unless
someone used that card a LINUX swap partition at one time, etc.
It would be nice to know if you only have one type of each media,
so that it would be possible for you to experiment with more than
one card of the same exact variety, before possibly dismissing
a particular architecture based on single card.
The same holds true for adapters, which can physically wear out
from friction, contamination by dirt, dust, etc.
Also, some files or large packets of data that make use of the
higher order bits in a register, or the like, to represent a
large numerical data value or a large numerical data address,
may not be sent from one location to another in parallel as
expected, and in some case, some files and data items would
be transmitted or delivered intact, and others might not be
as expected.
You mentioned a pin having an issue on one adapter, so I figured
I'd elaborate on these other considerations, based on catching
up on reading the thread, and remembering the content of earlier
posts here, and elsewhere.
Have a great evening and weekend either way, I sure intend to.
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#1731596 - 05/22/21 12:48 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: JohnM]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Well, points taken and registered.
I believe that none of those particular points are applicable in my tests in this instance. For as infrequently as I have used the original cf and sd adapters and the single sd card I am testing with, they may as well be "new" - and the sd and cf adapters I just bought to compare to the old (as a relevant part of the test) are brand new, never been used... as is the 8GB cf card that I haven't finished testing (works with the 1680, but not with the 880 for reasons unknown at the moment).
The bent pin on the sd/cf adapter only just happened a few nights ago and I very carefully put it back in position and have used it maybe 10 more times since while testing the sd card. I'm pretty certain it is in good working order.
I have just ordered a small array of 4GB cf cards (all 133x, which should be well within specs for the 880 to handle - as I recall my original card having been) and will be testing them by the week after next with any luck.
I can hopefully then remove that 8gb cf card from testing and simply initialize it for future use with the 1680 (since it seems to like it).
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uptildawn
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#1731599 - 05/22/21 01:06 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: JohnM]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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...
It would be nice to know if you only have one type of each media,
so that it would be possible for you to experiment with more than
one card of the same exact variety, before possibly dismissing
a particular architecture based on single card.
...
I want to address this comment in particular....
1- As a means to fully test the assertion that the adapters bought by gmskyhook (his initial conclusion) do not work with the 880 (and linked to a few posts ago), I decided to specifically test a new pair of same against a similar pair I bought some years ago and have used quite successfully (although rarely - and kept quite safe from the elements in the meantime).
2- I have purposely only used a single Toshiba 4GB SDHC card for all my testing so far. The card is new and only just formatted by the 880.
3- The 8GB Transcend 133x CF card I just bought does not want to work with the 880 for reasons unknown at the moment (always says NoDrv) and I am removing it from testing. I don't care why it won't work in the 880, since I know I can use it in the 1680, if I choose to do so - it is no longer part of this test.
4- Hopefully at least one of the new 4GB cards I just bought will work and I will begin using just a single card from those that work to continue testing the cf adapter portion of these sd and cf parallel tests. In fact, one of the 4GB cf cards is a Transcend and more than likely of the same generation as the 8GB - so we'll see if there's a common issue at least with the brand and the 880, possibly.... although certainly not conclusive.
What I do not want to do is to buy a handful of the same card, just to find out if some work and others do not - at least not at this time and until I know I have one that does work. It would be a waste of resources and take me once again off on a tangent I do not want to pursue during these tests.
Edited by uptildawn (05/22/21 01:08 AM)
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uptildawn
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#1731605 - 05/22/21 02:14 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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OKAY - test #3 - testing 4GB SDHC Class 4 Toshiba (and Transcend)cards with both 'old' and 'new' sd adapters - 4 tests with the 880 and 4 tests with the 1680.
1- Started by creating a test song on the Toshiba sd card a few days ago. Used this song file to test all possible sd adapter scenarios.
2- As a secondary test to rule out brand compatibility questions (more or less), I created a test song file on a Transcend sd card of the same specs in all possible combinations.
3- Both cards boot up successfully to the test song repeatedly, using the 'old' sd adapter. Insert card and adapter, power up, loads song, power down, shut off power, remove adapter - repeat sequence. Works every time. (I have not tried the pc side of the scenario yet, but I will, even though I don't think it makes a difference at this point.
4- Using the 'new' adapter (that's configured with the slot on the bottom) - Both cards power up and then stop at Unformatted - or whatever the message is - and would require initialization of the sd card, should I proceed. I don't and power down, because I want to preserve only this single test song for now.
5- This behavior is completely echoed in the 1680 - The 1680 actually is capable of loading an 880 song, even off of an 880 configured drive (the only difference is that it is 'locked' and uneditable (until imported - which is beyond the scope of these tests). So repeating the tests to verify the unformatted scenario is totally doable with the 1680. It totally lends confirmation (I think) to the notion that the sd adapter that gmskyhook bought and reported about (and that I also bought and am now using in my tests) does not work properly for the needs of VS usuers.
6- The reason why the 'new' sd adapter (and many more built since at least the past 5-6 years) does not work for us is because every time the machine is powered down, shut off, and then rebooted, the VS demands to reinitialize the sd card, even though song data is currently on the disk and verified.
7- I have no answer as to why there's a difference between the old and new sd card adapters, other than that I and others suspect that whenever stock of certain components are depleted and replaced with current versions or equivalents in later production lots, something that is essential to the VS is missing, so the VS won't operate properly. What the components or component is that makes this mess happen is beyond the scope of my ability to investigate.
I will next run a series of similar tests, using the same 2 sd cards with the sd/cf and cf adapter combination that allows me to use the sd card in a cf adapter board. I will report results when I have them.
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uptildawn
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#1731609 - 05/22/21 02:49 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Okay - test #4 - same sdhc cards with cf adapters (old and new), combined with adapter to allow sd card to be used in cf adapter.
This was easy -
1- Both sd cards work in both cf adapters.
2- Essential that before removing any flash media from the 880, that the power be turned off with the switch on the rear of the unit (or any hard drive or scsi external unit for that matter).
3- Assuming power cycle is performed properly - it is my conclusion that the two cf adapters I have and the two sd cards I tried work perfectly in this scenario (still to test the pc side).
I am still of the mind that pretty much any of the new breed of sd adapters fail to work for our VS needs. I am also fairly certain that just about any cf adapter with the right style and type for a VS mod (whether using the original caddy or a ribbon cable extension as some have done) will allow a person to use an sd card adapted to the cf adapter and/or a proper cf card of the right style - type I - I think is right.
Will try the sd cards this weekend at transferring/converting songs on the pc and then returning the cards to the 880. I will do these from both sd adapters and both cf adapters to be as complete as possible.
Later
Edited by uptildawn (05/22/21 02:51 AM)
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uptildawn
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#1731835 - 05/23/21 04:45 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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(starting to feel like I'm talking to myself, here.)
Test #5 – SD card transfers to windows and back
1- I think I can safely say that this sd card adapter does NOT work for the purpose of a mod of the internal drive and for transferring/extracting wav files on a pc.
2- Strictly speaking, the adapter works – it might even work great on a pc, if that’s all it does. But it certainly doesn’t work for our purposes.
Amazon link to whatever adapter is currently sold - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QNB6QLC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This particular sd adapter has the card slot oriented on the underside and the slot is spring loaded.
A major problem with the sd adapter is that whatever design once worked for us is no longer being made. Until, by some fluke, a new version is sold that DOES work, I think it’s just best to avoid the sd adapter mod.
That’s not to say that it might/might not work in an external scsi enclosure. I haven’t tested this one, but every mod has worked in an external scsi enclosure, in my experience.
3- Transfers from an sd card to the pc/vswe have consistently worked, no matter what adapter I use to create the song files in the 880, including this sd adapter. The problem with this particular adapter being that just powering off the 880 (using the proper shutdown sequence, of course) and then turning it back on causes the 880 to think the sd card needs to be reinitialized/reformatted.
I’m also using two different desktop pcs – an up to date windows 10 pro Dell (the pc is “old”, windows is current) and an older windows 7 pro/sp1 HP. Using a Dane multi-card reader on a usb 2 port on both computers. They both work with vswe (after a bunch of fiddling around with antivirus exceptions and missing dll file registration, etc., etc.).
The windows 7 pc works the cleanest in my opinion. VSWE auto-populates its main window with all the partitions on the sd card (4 max – that’s another issue, if you have a card with more than 4 partitions). VSWE displays a message in windows 7, if you click to open a partition in its main window and there’s no song file in it, which you have to X out of before continuing.
VSWE on the windows 10 pc doesn’t do this, so it’s necessary to open explorer to see all your drives (Each sd/880 partition shows up as a ‘hard drive’) and then drag the usb drives displayed, one at a time, into the vswe main window. If there’s no song on a partition, you get a windows (?) message to that effect and you have to X out the message and try a different ‘drive’.
One additional bit of info from this last test - I can create a song file on an sd card using this otherwise useless adapter, power down and then put the sd card in one of the other adapters I’ve been using and everything works perfectly when I reboot the 880. Just to remind – I’m using an older sd adapter and a cf/sd adapter in a cf adapter (bought between 6 and 10 years ago, but rarely used) to test various configurations between (mostly) a 4GB Toshiba sdhc class 4 card and an similar Transcend card (also barely used).
That’s it for now. More testing with various cf cards next week, or the week after – depending on when I get them.
Edited by uptildawn (05/23/21 04:49 PM)
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uptildawn
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#1731865 - 05/23/21 07:35 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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JohnM
Planeteer
Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 4698
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
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Thank you so much for all of your efforts and documenting them in the
forum to such an extent. If and when I ever attempt to try a
HD->flash-card conversion, knowing the details of which adapter,
card(s), etc., will be invaluable.
I just skimmed parts your posts, but I plan to look at them in
detail later this week.
I wish you all the success, and I hope that you find this endeavor
enjoyable.
Edited by JohnM (05/23/21 07:37 PM)
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#1731873 - 05/23/21 09:36 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: JohnM]
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gmskyhook
Planeteer
Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 58
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Yes, uptildawn, very appreciated.
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#1731874 - 05/23/21 09:39 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: gmskyhook]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Yes, uptildawn, very appreciated.
I'm hoping to hear what you've been able to do with the latest adapter you ordered......... success yet, I hope?
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uptildawn
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#1732002 - 05/24/21 06:22 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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gmskyhook
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Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 58
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#1732026 - 05/24/21 07:34 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: gmskyhook]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Thanks for the links!
That sd to cf adapter you bought must be the same as, or same type as the one I suggested might work earlier in this discussion. Wonder why it doesn't work? Do I want to know if it can work bad enough to buy one to test?.... hmmmm. That'll push my testing back another week for sure... maybe I will?
Anyway, I can't see any reason why those two sd cards shouldn't work on their own - at least insofar as getting the 880 to format and use them in an sd adapter (before powering off the 880 and having to reinitialize....). I'm guessing the problem lies in the sd to cf adapter then...
The sd to cf adapter I've been using - I bought back in 2011, from an ebay seller. They still have a website and sells similar things, but the one they have now may be to advanced - at least my senses tell me that it might not work, because so many 'new' things don't work for our needs.
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uptildawn
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#1732031 - 05/24/21 08:05 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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gmskyhook
Planeteer
Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 58
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Great points. I was really hoping the SD to CF adapter woould work because SD are cheaper and more available. But no big deal. I'm thrilled that I'm back running and very grateful for your guidance regarding the CF mod.
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#1732824 - 05/28/21 09:24 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: gmskyhook]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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Test #6 - Final? results
1- In all, I tested 6 CF cards, 3 SDHC cards, 2 CF adapters, 1 SD to CF adapter and 2 SD adapters
2- Some parts were bought as far back as 2011 and those parts all worked fine. They became the components I used for comparison and confirmation. They include the CF adapter with the least writing on its board, the SD to CF adapter, the SD adapter that was not spring-loaded and all 3 SDHC cards. All have been barely used and all work perfectly in the 880 & 1680 as IDE replacements, as well as in external scsi enclosure mods.
3- After extensive back and forth & repeated attempts to make the 880 recognize, format and then use repeatedly without requiring reformatting upon reboot (the main point of this thread and my testing), I've concluded that the only guaranteed combination of cards and adapters are the ones I bought around 2011.
4- All of the new components I bought this year, including 4 of the 6 CF cards, presented me with various challenges before I could successfully achieve the desired results. And the 6 CF cards are all "old school", 133x speed - nothing fancy.
5- The one new SD adapter, spring-loaded and with the slot on the underside, wouldn't perform the most important test - that of rebooting without reformatting the cards. NOT for VS Users, I think... unless mine is a dud. It did allow me to format and record to the cards, however, so what does that tell us?
6- One CF card - the Verbatim 4GB - wouldn't work at all in the 880 and 1680. I could never get the 880, or the 1680 to move beyond the initialize - IDE during boot-up in order to format it. But oddly enough, the pc displays a 1GB drive labeled as an 880 drive. VSWE populates its window, but says there are no vs songs (as I would expect).
7- Here's a onedrive link to the pictures I uploaded showing the CF-related cards and adapters that work with the 880 and which ones don't - IN MY TESTS. That's all I can show - what worked for me. I think it's a wild pot shot for anybody, actually.
Although, like I've said before, almost any of this stuff seems to work in an external scsi enclosure application and there's no reformatting wankiness, as there is with the internal drive mod.
Take that for what it's worth.
Here's the link to images -
https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApQxVDASwyuYj2bccuLRxrP2I3jC
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uptildawn
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#1732902 - 05/29/21 01:07 PM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: uptildawn]
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gmskyhook
Planeteer
Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 58
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uptildawn,
That is really an incredible help. Wish we could highlight it as special reference. Anyways, excellent work and it is very much appreciated.
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#1733485 - 06/01/21 12:33 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: gmskyhook]
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Geefresh95
Planeteer
Registered: 03/03/21
Posts: 126
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I haven't read thru the thread, as I only just got my EX and what I tried worked first time (the same that worked on my OG 880), so apologies if this has been stated before but...
These work on the EX, cheap as chips....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363059100763
...along with a Sandisk Ultra 30mb/s 4gb card.
Edited by Geefresh95 (06/01/21 12:34 AM)
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#1733493 - 06/01/21 01:00 AM
Re: Any help really appreciated. SYS Init. Drive=No DRV
[Re: Geefresh95]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9073
Loc: on land
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I haven't read thru the thread, as I only just got my EX and what I tried worked first time (the same that worked on my OG 880), so apologies if this has been stated before but... These work on the EX, cheap as chips.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363059100763...along with a Sandisk Ultra 30mb/s 4gb card.
Yes, for sure. That one appears to be the same version that the original poster and I both bought from Amazon. It's good to hear others are having success with this. I think it also goes a long way to suggest that the CF mod is much more likely to succeed these days than the SD mod.
Congrats on your success -
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uptildawn
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