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#17858 - 01/23/07 03:54 PM Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
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Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8511
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
Seems to be an ongoing problem of backing up VS-1680 Data. Seems like all the older CD-Burners are dying. Seems like SCSI still can be used.

I need to do something, know there are others (judging by every second thread here) in the same boat. And while combing the local Craigslist or eBay for used CD writers (gambling with compatibility), realize we can also make use of the SONG VAULT.

Hoping to put all resources we know of here - all the options for 1680 (and other VS machines) owners.

a) What's the link for the VS Song Vault, the SCSI hard drive that acts as an 18Gb or 20Gb drive?

b) What other build-options do we have: how can we commission a local computer builder (or do it ourselves) into building a VS-Compatible SCSI Drive backup system. What are the specs? What are the maximums and minimums?

c) Compatible CD Burners (known list from VS Planet Search).


JVC --
XR-W2010R2626
XR-W2040
XR-W2042 ***

TEAC --
CD-R55S
CD-R56S
CD-W512SB

RICOH --
MP6200S

PLEXTOR QPS --
CD-R PX-R412C
CD-R PX-R820T
CD-R PX-W4220T
CD-R PX-W8220T
CD-R PX-W124TS
CD-R PX-W8432T
CD-R PX-W1210S
CD-R PX-W

SANYO --
GENERIC CRD-BP4SyQuestSyJet

MATSHITA --
UJDA330
UJDA340


d) I know others here have come up with some brilliant .wav conversions ... I don't understand that, would it be possible to put all that information here (or links) and some kind of "how to" explanation, ie: summary?


e)Anything from Roland?
Just wondering if Roland has any long-term solutions for this? Or if there is some proprietary information we need when putting together a bigger SCSI Hard Drive Data Backup system.

Cheers and thanks ... hoping to resolve this once and for all. Have been unable to use 1680 for two years because no back up device. Stuck.
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#17859 - 01/23/07 04:03 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
will Offline
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Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 2228
Loc: home in holland
a) song vault-site
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#17860 - 01/23/07 06:07 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
buster 'n babs Offline
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Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 1420
Loc: burlington, canada
great idea for a resource list flametop. all of us 1680 users are going to get into trouble finding parts someday.

i use external HD's for short term backup (using the Copy Playable function), one HD for each of my two 1680's. (use vs-pro to link them)

when a project is over, i use the CD data backup function into my original plextor burner that came with my first 1680. (if that one crashes, i have a spare burner that i haven't used yet.) then i erase the data from both the IDE and the external HD. also keep a copy of the master on CD.

i have another burner i use to make quick audio copies of rough mixes etc. for clients (connected thru direct outs).

this system serves me well.
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#17861 - 01/23/07 07:39 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
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Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8511
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
I am hoping to resolve the problem. If not once and for all, certainly for 5 years or so.

I will probably buy the Song Vault - but with Canadian duty and exchange, this is getting upwards in cost. Nertz. More than I would like to spend, but then what price on backing up my music? This kind of money should be going towards a new microphone or a new guitar or lessons of some kind. I hate technology but also love technology.

Song Vault looks like a great idea ... not sure that I could build something myself ;\)
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#17862 - 01/25/07 07:08 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
knurrhahn Offline
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Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Switzerland
Hi,
maybe this one will add to this thread.

My SCSI to IDE solution

Greetings
Knurrhahn

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#17863 - 01/25/07 07:56 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8511
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
W O W !

That is pretty cool, and might solve so many problems. HOW DO I DO THAT?

Please explain to me, as though explaining to a slow, mentally challenged child.

What do I need? Where can I get?

Thanks!
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#17864 - 01/30/07 01:55 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Tony B Offline
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Registered: 05/16/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Minnesota
Hi all:

This device costs only $69.00, and
attaches directly to your IDE HD...

http://www.addonics.com/products/io/ide_scsi.asp

Since there are no drivers involved, the OS really is not an issue. It should work with your VS's. What you will need is the adapter to go from the SCSI connector on this device to your existing SCSI cable or directly to the VS.

Tony B

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#17865 - 01/31/07 03:16 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
knurrhahn Offline
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Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Switzerland
Damn,

this looks much better than mine.
*Grumpf*

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#17866 - 01/31/07 09:49 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tony B:
http://www.addonics.com/products/io/ide_scsi.asp

Since there are no drivers involved, the OS really is not an issue. It should work with your VS's. What you will need is the adapter to go from the SCSI connector on this device to your existing SCSI cable or directly to the VS.

Tony B
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
DanT
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#17867 - 01/31/07 10:44 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
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Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
 Quote:
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
Yes, except I've used the Acard bridge cards:

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=022314

works quite nicely.

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#17868 - 02/02/07 08:50 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
 Quote:
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
Yes, except I've used the Acard bridge cards:

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=022314

works quite nicely.
HA! I was just looking for this thread that you had made reference to. I found it the other day, but forgot to bookmark it.


I was actually wondering about the specific adapter you posted the link for, but I like what you've done anyhoo.
I've got a 10 gig external in a case that I got some time back just for this kind of thing. The drive (or something I hadn't yet determined) had malfunctioned and I could no longer use the thing so it got shelved for over a year now. I want to revive it now, having read your thread.

The drive in the case was originally designed to let me go back and forth from the VS to the PC, possibly through the printer port (I don't recall at the moment). Something got screwed up after using it successfully for over a year and now the Roland won't recognize it and IIRC, the pc would freeze when I tried to reformat it.

By the way... any suggestions you might have to salvage this drive would be helpful since I know just enough about this stuff to get myself in trouble... not much more.

DanT
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#17869 - 02/02/07 10:31 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
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Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
I'm not sure I understand the setup you're talking about. Elaborate ...

10 gb scsi drive? (that would seem to be the case since you're not mentioning that you have a scsi to ide bridge adapter)
Get a pc pci scsi card to test it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/IOMEGA-ABP-960-PCI-S...1QQcmdZViewItem

or similar - with drive all set up and connected inside the enclosure, and the enclosure connected to the card through a scsi cable - with diagnostics that you can probably get from the manufacturer. The first thing I would do is get the card and hook the enclosure up and see if the pc can "see" any files on the drive.

As I said before, the card also comes in handy in transferring songs that you would back up to the external drive to your pc and using the rangygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion software to convert them to wav file (bear's converts backup CDs so it's not a necessity to get the card to do this - but if you're using the external drive, then you don't have to make back up CDs).

 Quote:
Something got screwed up after using it successfully for over a year and now the Roland won't recognize it and IIRC, the pc would freeze when I tried to reformat it.
I think you're saying you had both the pc and the vs connected to it at the same time, and I don't think that is a good idea, which might be why you developed problems:

http://www.vsplanet.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022210

Big Red did mention in my post that an AB switch would work ...

I don't know how you could have had anything working connected to the pc parallel port.

Here's an ebay link on an ide to scsi adapter bridge - price is reasonable. There are others out on ebay now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ACARD-AEC-7720U-50-p...1QQcmdZViewItem

The adapter that Tony refers and links to above looks good to me also.

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#17870 - 02/03/07 12:35 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
I'm not sure I understand the setup you're talking about. Elaborate ...
Gosh! Didn't expect a reply so soon... seems to take days lately compared to a year or two ago. You hardly gave me time to find the drive and hook it up to see what the heck I was talking about! \:D

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:

10 gb scsi drive? (that would seem to be the case since you're not mentioning that you have a scsi to ide bridge adapter)
Get a pc pci scsi card to test it...
or similar - with drive all set up and connected inside the enclosure, and the enclosure connected to the card through a scsi cable -
Well, as it turns out, this is actually a standard Seagate pc IDE drive with the scsi card adapter, cables and case very similar to what you show in your pics... Who woulda thunk! :rolleyes:

I'd forgotten what I had in the two years I had it shelved.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:

As I said before, the card also comes in handy in transferring songs that you would back up to the external drive to your pc and using the rangygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion software to convert them to wav file (bear's converts backup CDs so it's not a necessity to get the card to do this - but if you're using the external drive, then you don't have to make back up CDs).
Since it is now working, I think... reformatting as I type.... I'm very curious about this part. Will the pc just recognize the hard drive hooked up to the scsi card and allow me to use the randygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion stuff (there's gotta be a simpler name somewhere, don't you think? ;\) ) to grab those Roland songs like I can do with the backup cds?
I really can't remember now how I got that to work before... I'm pretty sure now that I hooked it up to the pc via the scsi and not the printer port as I stated before. I remember having to use the hookup on the back of my scanner to daisychain the drive to the pc via the pci scsi
card.

I don't recall if there's something specific I have to do in regards to formatting the drive... Do I have to format it with Windows at all, or just the Roland. I know the Roland won't let me use it without formatting with the Roland... Suggestions??? I really can't recall.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
...I think you're saying you had both the pc and the vs connected to it at the same time, and I don't think that is a good idea, which might be why you developed problems...
I was very carefull to keep the scsi separated between the VS and the pc... In fact, I used one of the A/B switches you have been talking about with great success. Somewhere along the line I must have mucked it up though.... things happen.

In fact, when I finally got it hooked up tonight I initially thought it had simply been a partially connected cable because that internal connection between the scsi adapter and the IDE drive in the external case is quite loose... not snug at all.
Turns out that the Roland won't let me access one of the partitions however. The Info page shows all the partitions and the size of each one... except for one, which it shows as having XXXMB instead of something like 2,000MB.

Too late now to bother with extensive recovery efforts..... I got what I needed from the other partitions and am now running a complete format and scan... I'm not gonna bother with the expense and time of trying to recover whatever lost data is on there since it's been a couple of years and I seem to have done okay without it.
Although I can't help but wonder if the original multi-track version of one song I am working on right now may have been on that partition.

Oh WELL!

Thanks for your assistance and you excellent solution! :thumb:
Looks like I won't need to get that adapter afterall now.

DanT
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#17871 - 02/03/07 01:21 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
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Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
Looks like you figured it out - has to be formatted with the Roland ...

From the way you're talking, your pc already has a scsi port so you don't need the scsi pci card that I talk about - you're already set to go ...

To use randygo's RDAC conversion program:

I connect the scsi enclosure to the pc and copy the entire contents to the pc. Each partition appears as a folder to the pc - I bring everything in as it appears - folders and associated files - under a single pc folder (I hope I'm clear here - I'm preserving the folder and file structure seen on the external drive onto the pc). If I do this again in two months, I put it in another separate folder.

My thinking is - if that external drive goes bad, it's backed up to pc. I get another drive and copy the entire folder of choice to the new drive.

I'm using randygo's dll to directly open the Roland files up in Reaper (I've tried bear's program once with a backup CD, and I have not tried Danielo's at all yet). It seems to be a cool app. It is so cool to open up songs that I recorded on the Roland and hear them on my pc. I'm thinking that I am going to learn to mix and master on the pc through Reaper, and record and track with the Roland.

Since you also have the scsi ide adapter card, as well as the ide drive, and enclosre, you appear to have everything you need ...

Look for groups of 20 gb ide drives on ebay - search on "lot", "ide", and "20". I picked up 4 20 gb ide drvies for about $50.

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#17872 - 02/03/07 01:43 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
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Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
FlametopFred:

 Quote:
I know others here have come up with some brilliant .wav conversions ... I don't understand that, would it be possible to put all that information here (or links) and some kind of "how to" explanation, ie: summary?
There are basically three programs that have been written, with variations off of that. randygo has written a program or dll that can be put in a Reaper folder, and if you copy songs from an external hard drive or zip drive to a pc folder, you can open these file up in Reaper directly. bear wrote a program that basically rips the data from a CD, and I believe creates files that look like the external drive files - not certain on that. danielo's program, I believe uses bear's process - can't remember and not sure - and creates wav files. Some of these programs might do more or less - I'm just giving a high level overview. I have an external drive, I've decide to use randygo's.

Funkybeat's instructions for the CD conversion (ripping from a CD and also opening in Reaper, I believe - includes some things on installing Reaper):

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022237

For the conversion of files taken from an external drive, I simply moved the files to the pc from the external drive through a scsi card/port, installed Reaper, put randygo's conversion dll in the appropriate folder per his instructions, and open the Roland files from within Reaper. Real easy to do.

Danielo's instructions (ripping from a CD and creating wav files):

http://www.thegoodlibrary.com/VSWaveExport.html

The only process, of course, thar I'm very familiar with is ranfygo's - it's just been since before Christmas that I last played with it - I can provide more detailed instructions at some point when I go back and look at what I did.

 Quote:
Anything from Roland?
Just wondering if Roland has any long-term solutions for this? Or if there is some proprietary information we need when putting together a bigger SCSI Hard Drive Data Backup system.
In my humble opinion, nothing - never, ever again. An update to the OS would have to be made for it to recognize bigger and better systems, if that can even be considered. I doubt that Roland will ever consider that at this point, and I guess I don't blame them. Remember, the 1680/1880 cpu is quite old, there are limitations with it being able to keep up with technology even if Roland so desired to improve it.

The only options that I see are:

if a tricked up solution can be figured out by someone smart - flash cards as they become bigger, maybe? or ..

virDIS maybe? still would be a 16 gb limit - maybe multiple patitions could be set up on the pc? I'm not sure where the status of virDIS is with the 1680 - it was really developed for the 2480. I think it basically works for the 1680, but I'm not sure how much testing has been done, and I'm not sure what the limitations are. It's pricey, although cheaper than the prices you were throwing out for those drive farms, but the price has come down ...

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#17873 - 02/03/07 03:42 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
Looks like you figured it out - has to be formatted with the Roland ...

From the way you're talking, your pc already has a scsi port so you don't need the scsi pci card that I talk about - you're already set to go ...

To use randygo's RDAC conversion program:

I connect the scsi enclosure to the pc and copy the entire contents to the pc. Each partition appears as a folder to the pc - I bring everything in as it appears - folders and associated files - under a single pc folder (I hope I'm clear here - I'm preserving the folder and file structure seen on the external drive onto the pc). If I do this again in two months, I put it in another separate folder.

My thinking is - if that external drive goes bad, it's backed up to pc. I get another drive and copy the entire folder of choice to the new drive.

I'm using randygo's dll to directly open the Roland files up in Reaper (I've tried bear's program once with a backup CD, and I have not tried Danielo's at all yet). It seems to be a cool app. It is so cool to open up songs that I recorded on the Roland and hear them on my pc. I'm thinking that I am going to learn to mix and master on the pc through Reaper, and record and track with the Roland.

Since you also have the scsi ide adapter card, as well as the ide drive, and enclosre, you appear to have everything you need ...

Look for groups of 20 gb ide drives on ebay - search on "lot", "ide", and "20". I picked up 4 20 gb ide drvies for about $50.
Thanks for your continued help! I can confirm that I can now access the scsi hard drive without problems. I have also confirmed your method of connecting the drive to the pc to drag the contents of the partitions and store them on the pc... have not tried opening the songs in reaper, but I imagine it's the same as using randygo's dll with reaper on a cdr conversion?...

Since I have cdr backups, virdis backups AND scsi drive backups now, it looks like I will make ample use of all of these awsome new methods for saving my valuable VS recordings.

Glad to know there are still small hard drives floating around to be had vor cheap.... thanks for the ebay suggestion.

One problem I now have is that Bill Casey's VirDis scsi card doesn't work like a standard card (not the same type of driver?... I don't know these things well) and therefore the pc does not see the external scsi drive through this port. I can use it with the pc that has the scsi scanner so all is not lost. I may have to give Bill a call and see if there's some way around this problem.

Is there a cheap, easy adapter I could use to hook up the external scsi drive to the pc via the printer port (I don't use it on the virdis pc.)?

DanT
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#17874 - 02/03/07 05:03 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
 Quote:
...but I imagine it's the same as using randygo's dll with reaper on a cdr conversion?...
Once you have the files in a folder, and have put randygo's dll in the proper Reaper dll folder, it is as simple as using the file open function, and selecting Roland as the file type, and going to the folders that you put the data files in and selecting a song.

 Quote:
Since I have cdr backups, virdis backups AND scsi drive backups now, it looks like I will make ample use of all of these awsome new methods for saving my valuable VS recordings.
Interesting ... do you use virDIS with a 1680 or a 2480? If with a 1680 I'd love as many details as to how it is working for you - gb capacity, etc.

There was some rdac conversion activity going on with virDIS - I don't know where it's at now ...


danielo made a comment in the 2480 forum:

 Quote:
I think youre wrong on this one.
I transfered 1680 projects to the 2480 via an 2GB JAZ drive. Just formated, copied (playable), hooked to the 2480 and imported. as easy as this.
I think it should not make a difference if its a HD or a 2GB JAZ.
PaulMiller made a response:

 Quote:
Yes and no - it might work in import mode from a Jaz/Zip drive but it is very different when it comes to a SCSI attached HDD. It doesn't work; I tested this for Bill Casey. So Brett is correct here.

Why I understand this is because - Bill Casey VirDIS developer realised early on that the .BIN files that emulate the SCSI HDD must save as a removable type media, like a SCSI ZIP/JAZ Drive.

Fortunately Roland didn't put a G/Byte limit on the Jaz/Zip drives; yep these things could go to 120 GB. Bill demonstrated import of VS880 files into the VS2480 via the VirDIS .BIN files via the import function, the VS2480 seeing the media as an emulated removable media type such as ZIP or JAZ.

Sorry guys but we've tried it.
No commentary other than I guess I'm curious if using virDIS for a 1680 - can the 16 gb limit be broken?

If you've got a 2480, then never-mind ..

 Quote:
One problem I now have is that Bill Casey's VirDis scsi card doesn't work like a standard card (not the same type of driver?... I don't know these things well) and therefore the pc does not see the external scsi drive through this port. I can use it with the pc that has the scsi scanner so all is not lost. I may have to give Bill a call and see if there's some way around this problem.
I wouldn't think that there's a way around that problem.

You might want to go ahead and get a scsi pci card like I said above if your pc has an extra open pci slot - it would make life easier.

I got the card for about $20 plus shipping from ebay - quite cheap ...

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#17875 - 02/04/07 11:43 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse: [QUOTE] ...Once you have the files in a folder, and have put randygo's dll in the proper Reaper dll folder, it is as simple as using the file open function, and selecting Roland as the file type, and going to the folders that you put the data files in and selecting a song.
I figured as much, but haven't tried it yet since the scsi pci card is on another machine and I'm preoccupied with moving VS files to dvd backup at the moment on the virdis machine.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
Interesting ... do you use virDIS with a 1680 or a 2480? If with a 1680 I'd love as many details as to how it is working for you - gb capacity, etc.
1680VX.... and 880VX I worked with Bill on and off over the summer trying to track down some of the issues he was having... it seemed to boil down to two things, one vcd related and the other vhd related. I'm behind the game a bit in virdis world (version 2.15)and I think Bill has been working on an update to fix more issues. I just really got around to checking out 2.15 this week and He's made some significant progress where the 1680 is concerned.

One thing he's managed for the 1680 (and other non-2480 versions)is to force virdis to set up vhds that are larger than 1G (I'm guessing from my work yesterday) in advance of the Roland format routine. Works great and solved a big issue from this summer. I have yet to mess with changes he's made to the vcd section although I assume we still can't get wav files from the iso it creates since it appeared that this was an exclusive of the 2480 and beyond...... I HOPE I'M WRONG!

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
OTHER QUOTES ABOUT IMPORTING BETWEEN THE 2480 AND OTHERS ...No commentary other than I guess I'm curious if using virDIS for a 1680 - can the 16 gb limit be broken?
I haven't checked yet because I'm preoccupied and don't want to use up the hard drive space at just this moment, but I'm curious too and will report what I find out.

What I've done to this point, and I'm inclined to be comfortable with simply because of the 2G partition limit in the 1680 (what a joke!) is to create a vhd of no more than 2G, make copy-playables of songs to it until it is nearly full (just as I would normally) and then use the vswaveexport program to create wav files of each of the tracks for editing in SawStudio... or whatever app. I need at the time.

This allows me to make a backup dvd which contains a VS playable session to retain any FX/automation settings, etc. that are important (if any) and a folder of wav files for pc editing. It is rare that I want to end up in the Roland, so getting edited files back to the VS isn't part of my current gameplan.

I am limiting my vhds to 2G for the simple reason that the bin file, along with the extracted wavs will be just about what a dvd can store.

Granted, being able to store ALL my VS backups to a single 120G or larger harddrive would be wonderful if the Roland could read the partitions beyond the first 8, but I think the hard limit we face has to do with the Roland restriction of 8/2G partitions. In order to use any hard drive we have to initialize and format using the VS to make playable sessions and the Roland insists on formatting the entire drive regardless of partitioning in advance in Windows (I believe).

I think that this remains true of a VHD as well, so creating one that is larger than 16-17G seems useless. Besides, creating multiple VHDs on a single, large hard drive is not an issue at all.

I don't think that Bill's intention was to create a VHD that playable songs could be written to by the VS... or for that matter, that we could record and edit directly to the VHD. I think that was an unexpected and pleasant discovery. I believe that the Roland will always force the 2G/8 partition limit. This makes creating very large projects on the 1680 an impossible (at least improbable) dream. Again, I hope I'm wrong about all of this and maybe I've mis-spoken.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

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#17876 - 02/05/07 05:48 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8511
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
whoa ... this thread gets better and better, and more importantly,
in a language I can actually understand \:\)

There are many great solutions here!
And, more importantly, HOPE!

All is not lost.
Thanks to everyone (so far and next) that have responded! I am stoked on this.
_________________________
FTF: Official Thread Killer since 1999


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#17877 - 02/07/07 11:26 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
flatcat Administrator Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 27640
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
At Fred's suggestion, I'm making this a sticky.

Thanks Fred, thanks all. Great stuff.
_________________________
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"

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#17878 - 02/07/07 02:23 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
hi all,

i did not read all the posts, but think i have to make some clarifications:

my Application ( http://www.thegoodlibrary.com/VSWaveExport.html ) does not require CD backups. It also reads the VS Data either directly from the VS SCSI or IDE Harddisk, or from files copied from the HD to PC as someone also mentioned in this thread. Furthermore it is possible to directly access VirDis Files which eliminates all Hardware swapping and makes exchange of data possible while both the PC and the VS are running.

cheers

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#17879 - 02/07/07 08:14 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Wow! Danielo...
I didn't even notice the part about grabbing this stuff directly from the VS IDE... It makes sense though.... COOL!
One question (probably kinda dumb)... what's a good way to access the internal drive of the VS using a desktop pc?

I assume an adapter of some kind is needed to go from the 2.5" drive to the pc's cable?

Probably easier in the long run to just use virdis since I have it.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17880 - 02/08/07 06:07 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
ups, youre talking about 1680's internal drive, eh? The app is only tested with 2480 internal drives. as some reported, the 1680 IDE swappes a few bytes which will propably cause the app to deny service. But yes, you need some kind of adapter, ide laptop to ide desktop. Be aware, that you have to remove the internal 1680 drive also from its 'caddy'. The connectors of the caddy are roland specific and will not be connectable to a PC.

I'm planning to spend some time from now till sunday for improvements of the app. i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers

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#17881 - 02/08/07 09:46 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
ups, youre talking about 1680's internal drive, eh? The app is only tested with 2480 internal drives. as some reported, the 1680 IDE swappes a few bytes which will propably cause the app to deny service. But yes, you need some kind of adapter, ide laptop to ide desktop. Be aware, that you have to remove the internal 1680 drive also from its 'caddy'. The connectors of the caddy are roland specific and will not be connectable to a PC.

I'm planning to spend some time from now till sunday for improvements of the app. i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers
Personally, I feel doing all that physical manipulation of the hard drive would be a bad thing, especially on a routine basis. I think it'd be a better and safer bet all around for anyone with a non-2480 (series) to either be restricted in this respect (not the best plan) or at least to be HEAVILY advised of the consequences of continually removing the hard drive from its caddy, hooking it up to the adapter, the pc and then replacing it all over and over again.

I remove the IDE drive from the machine all the time to swap it out with the extra drive or two I've accumulated, but I am also very aware of how to treat it when I do so. I also do not need to remove and replace screws all the time to do this since it fits snuggly in the bay, even "latching" into place, allowing me to leave the two mounting screws unattatched. If I move the machine around, I always double check to see that the hard drive is secure before powering up the VS too.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17882 - 02/08/07 09:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers
What would that take? Is it something I can assist with by providing the info? If so, let me know.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

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#17883 - 02/08/07 10:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
>Is it something I can assist with by providing the info?

if you have possibilities to connect one of your drives to a pc, then i would kindly ask you to run a small utility to get drive image and send me the rersulting file. i would then analyze it.

cheers

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#17884 - 02/08/07 03:21 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
>Is it something I can assist with by providing the info?

if you have possibilities to connect one of your drives to a pc, then i would kindly ask you to run a small utility to get drive image and send me the rersulting file. i would then analyze it.

cheers
I'll see what I can do.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17885 - 02/08/07 07:19 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Danielo, I think I understand what you need, but I'm not sure about how to get it for you.
Could you be more specific about what utility you mean and what info you are looking for... in basic terms.... not technical!

I have been transfering VS files to the pc and saving the playable song copies to dvd as well as converting the vr6 files to wav tracks, as well as using VirDis to create bin files for archive backups and song playable copies.

I don't mean to be dense, but would any of that info be helpful, or is it system type files that you need that would be stored on the IDE drive itself?

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17886 - 02/08/07 08:02 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
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Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
ok.

can you, or have you ever connected a 1680 Internal Harddisk (the small ones, 2,5 inch a.k.a. laptop hardrive) to a desktop PC?

if the answer is yes, then i will create a small tool to collect the information i need. you just have to download it, run it and send me a mail.

 Quote:

I have been transfering VS files to the pc and saving the playable song copies to dvd as well as converting the vr6 files to wav tracks, as well as using VirDis to create bin files for archive backups and song playable copies.
you say you have transfered VS Files to the PC. Have you done this by connecting the 1680 Internal Harddrive (laptop drive) to your computer?
If the answer is yes, then this contradicts with what other people report.

cheers

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#17887 - 02/09/07 10:56 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
can you, or have you ever connected a 1680 Internal Harddisk (the small ones, 2,5 inch a.k.a. laptop hardrive) to a desktop PC?

if the answer is yes, then i will create a small tool to collect the information i need. you just have to download it, run it and send me a mail.

you say you have transfered VS Files to the PC. Have you done this by connecting the 1680 Internal Harddrive (laptop drive) to your computer?
If the answer is yes, then this contradicts with what other people report.

cheers
[/QUOTE]

No, I haven't connected the internal drive directly to the pc before, but a techie friend tells me it should be easy enough to find the adapter I would need to do that. When I get one I can let you know and hopefully I can help you get the info you need.

No, I haven't directly connected the internal drive to a pc and gotten the files from it that way. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have been taking great advantage of the three utilities that have been offered by YOU (Danielo... THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! \:\) ), Bear and Randygo, as well as Bill Casey's VirDis.
There was a time when I was using an external IDE drive, connected thru a scsi drive case and moving files back and forth from the VS to PC via an A/B switch and this scsi drive case. I believe I remember seeing files unrelated to song files on the drive when connected to the pc..... This is probably not what you want either, is it?... I can only get so far with this stuff before I reveal my HUGE ignorance about computers.

I'll see if I can get a hold of the adapter I need to hook the Roland drive up to the pc and when I do, I'll be more than happy to assist.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17888 - 02/09/07 11:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
Thank you Dan. Let me know if you managed to connect the ide drive to the PC.

The connection of SCSI drive to the PC is known to be working normaly (no swapped bytes).

Thanks again.
cheers

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#17889 - 03/29/07 04:14 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
I sure wish there was some easy way to connect the ide of the VS to the pc... still haven't found the way without removing the ide from its caddy... which I really don't want to have to do... defeats the purpose of an EASY transfer.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17890 - 06/29/07 08:44 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Ok, I need some help before my head explodes. I am keen to get some more hard disk space as I am still using the original 2gb that initially comes with the 1680.
Can anyone tell me the easiest (and preferably cheapest) way to get more space? I don't want to touch the internal drive at all, I am bound to stuff that up and I cannot live with that!
So, is it just a case of buying a hard drive (any size?) and buying the adapter mentioned by Tony B, and then formatting the drive etc with the 1680?
I am almost certain I am wrong there. Sounds too simple. There are so many solutions here, and i am not a technically minded person for the best part. SO with this many issues and techniques, my head just spins!
Also, is there any issue with storing song info on the external hard drive for long periods of time? For instance, if i can somehow get a huge amount of space, there may be no need to ever (to a point of course) back up to cd-r again. Is that a problem?

Anyway, you people are all wonderful and without this community i would wonder the recording world confusd and depressed more often than not.

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#17891 - 07/02/07 01:11 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
1- replacing the internal drive is about the easiest thing there is to do on the VS. Take four screws out, take out drive, slide in new drive, put four screws back... in fact, you can just put two screws back if you don't want the hassle.
It's always nice to have the original drive around as a spare also.

2- Any hard drive formatted to work with the VS will only be able to use a maximum of 16 gigs (2 gig partition limit times 8 partitions = 16 gigs). There's some posts around here that mention specific makes/models of 20 gig drives that work well for internal drive replacements. The external drive idea that Tony is talking about requires a SCSI drive enclosure with the correct adapters to an IDE drive (like you would use for a pc) installed in the case, plus the correct adapter cables (and/or adapters) to hook up to the VS and to the pc if you are planning on storing your songs on the pc for increased storage space and faster cd burns. The IDE drive you would buy for this case should also be 20 gigs or less because anything above that is totally wasted space.

Hope this helps.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17892 - 07/02/07 03:17 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Yes uptildawn, it does help a lot. In fact you have helped me a great deal in recent weeks as i ease my way back into recording since traveling for over a year. Much appreciated.

Basically, I am looking at investing in vs pro, getting more hard disk space and most probably a new cd burner as my origial one feels like it is onthe way out. Problem is I have limited cash available, so I am trying to get all the info i can on each and make a decision that will give me the most benefit for the least cash (and potential problems!).

One more question: can/if i get a dvd/cd-r burner, I assume that will solve hard disc space (by burning more data on each dvd than the regular cd-r) and it will replace my dying cd burner. Would that be correct?

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#17893 - 07/02/07 05:29 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Are you speaking of a scsi cd burner that you currently use to create data backups on the VS? There are very few of those which will actually burn and recover VS data. I have personally found it helpful to have one even though they are slow as hardened lava.

The pc and dvd/cd burner combined with VS Wave Export, CD2Roland, Reaper, VirDis, etc. will allow you to archive .wav files of your VS projects... and in much greater quantity per disc on a dvd-r because of its greater capacity (of course). But, not all of these utilities will let you store VS-ready data archives, which is an important consideration if you feel the need and/or plan on reopening them in the VS recorder at some future date.

If you want the flexibility to move your VS song data back and forth from the recorder to the pc/archive disc, then there's really only one combo that I can see working the best for your money. Even though it probably costs the most, I think the best investment is this combo, in order from the VS to the pc:
1- VS recorder

2- VirDis program with special scsi card for your pc (required for VirDis)the expensive part, but THE most important part

3- dvd/cd burner for the pc

This combo will let you archive, copy, move, transfer, edit, play, record on the pc and VS almost as if the pc were an external hard drive for the VS. Plus your ability to archive large amounts of data and the speed by which you can burn discs, audio or data, make this an extremely nice setup. I haven't seen an update on VirDis in a while, but the developer has some great plans for the future of the program.
___________________________________

Then there are these additional parts of the puzzle which can make the process very flexible:

1- (optional) at least one extra internal drive, preferably in the range of 12-20 gig.
2- (optional, but helpful) Roland (qualified) cd burner
3- (optional even with the original 2 gig hard drive... although a large internal drive is really much nicer) a decent capacity external scsi drive with the correct adapters (there are numerous pin configs for scsi unfortunately), or external pc IDE drive in a scsi case with the correct adapters
4- VS Wave Export, CD2Roland, Reaper w/VS plug-in all free except Reaper which is cost minimal

Notice that with VirDis it isn't really even necessary to have a large internal hard drive, an external scsi hard drive, an external scsi cd burner, or anything else between the VS and VirDis since the program can access the internal VS drive directly.

You might want to consider how much money you might spend on everything you have considered getting to make this a functional venture between the VS and the pc... Then weigh that potential cost against that of VirDis, combined with your existing equipment and see if it doesn't make sense.

Of course, that doesn't include your wanting to get VSpro, which is a whole different part of what you want to do... having little to do with moving VS data between the recorder and the pc.
VSpro is how you intend to make the computer control the VS and/or combination of VS'

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17894 - 07/02/07 06:24 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
DanT, How much of a legend are you?! I mean, to reply with such detail is really something I strongly appreciated. i hope your advice also helps others too.
After trying to digest your advice, my head exploded. I picked up the bits i could and thought "might try this again tomorrow!" I have been reading to much for one night, and once i have re-read it again, I might be able to begin thinking about what i will do.
Still very confused, as none of the options rally sound that simple. At this stage, i think I am leaning towards getting vs pro to help edit/mix. In terms of hard disc space, increasing the internal one to the 20 gig seems easiest and cheapest. Burning my cds now seems the next step. Can i just get one of the cd/dvd burners approved on this forum, and hook that up to the vs1680, or does it have to go through the pc and all that other gear you mentioned?

I know you are probably reading this going "does he not get this yet?!" but I am finding this whole world outside of the immediate 1680 really difficult to adjust to, and all assistance here helps greatly!

Cheers

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#17895 - 07/03/07 04:00 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Keep as much of it inside the direct VS world for now if needed. You can do most of what you want without getting too involved. In fact, VSpro is a level of complexity added to the VS that isn't necessarily needed if you don't mind working inside of the 3x4 window they give you. I had been perfectly happy learning how to do detailed editing and mixing completely within the VS for the first five years that I owned the 1680 and for a year before that with the (horribly thought out window of the ) 880.

The 20Gig hard drive will serve you well. Just watch out for what you get. I've heard that there are some shifty dealings going on with these drives on ebay..... some are good, some are not. Ask around and be thoughtful of what and where you buy.

You can use cd drives recommended here for general audio burning hooked up to the normal digital or analog outputs of the VS with ease.

BUT,

The only cd drives that will allow BOTH audio AND data creation on the VS are those with the Roland brand attached, basically three... The data archiving is important to me so I put up with the limitations...... It was far worse when they first came out at $675US for a 2x write/8x read drive and we had no choice at all.

Any external drives; cd, zip, or hard drive for the VS HAVE to be SCSI. DVD only comes into play when used with the pc.
_________________________________

Upgrading the internal drive to 20 gigs and getting a cd burner can keep you within the confines of the VS while you learn more and become more informed about what will work best for your specific needs.

If you're not familiar with pc recording/editing/mixing software or even using the pc for audio in a basic sense, then it might suite you to wade into the pc world slowly, meanwhile learning everything there is to know about working the VS to its limits.
That would be the simple solution.
DanT
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uptildawn

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#17896 - 07/03/07 05:47 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks again DanT,

I think you have put it all pretty much how i need to go about it. the way i see it, the 20gig internal HD upgrade should be cheap and easy to do, and would obviously save me from burning as much as I have in the past anyway.

I have a friend who works with computers, so i should be able to get a cheap and good 20gig hard drive (hopefully!)
Uptil, do you know where to get the roland burners? I checked ebay, but they are all american and I am in (will be in) Australia. I assume other than the socket adapter, there would be no difference.
Perhaps i should get a roland burner for Data and audio, and another cheaper one for audio burns only as it will save my roland burner extra work... I hear a few people around here have several drives.
One more thing. As i said, my friend with computers could possibly (hopefully) get me what i need for the IDE gard drive, Scsi casing and adapters. Is there a 20gig limit on this too?
Cos if not, I could get a huge drive for that and rarely burn data again!

Thanks again for all of your help, and thanks for not getting too frustrated with me...yet! Despite my apparent lack of progress, I do feel as i if i am getting somewhere, slowly but surely!

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#17897 - 07/04/07 12:43 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Quote:
Originally posted by danmanisa:
Thanks again DanT,

Uptil, do you know where to get the roland burners? I checked ebay, but they are all american and I am in (will be in) Australia. I assume other than the socket adapter, there would be no difference.
Perhaps i should get a roland burner for Data and audio, and another cheaper one for audio burns only as it will save my roland burner extra work... I hear a few people around here have several drives.
One more thing. As i said, my friend with computers could possibly (hopefully) get me what i need for the IDE gard drive, Scsi casing and adapters. Is there a 20gig limit on this too?
Cos if not, I could get a huge drive for that and rarely burn data again!
Never a problem... always glad when what I have to say does some good.

Any drive you want the Roland to access must be compatable with the Roland... that means it must be formatted by the Roland, which means 16gig limit (8 partitions that are 2 gigs each).

I have no clue lately where you would find the burners... somebody here must know where and WHICH burners will do both data and audio.

Another thing you might check into is the "Song Vault" website which advertises here with a banner ad.

DanT
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uptildawn

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#17898 - 07/23/07 11:18 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
wheels Offline
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Registered: 04/27/99
Posts: 1529
Loc: ma.
I know this is off topic but I haven't been on here in years and just wanted to say hi to Flametop Fred. I don't know if you remember me or not Fred, I was on here when Bob Eliot and Al/Father Time were kickin' around. Hope you're doing well!

wheels
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https://soundcloud.com/onedaygone

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#701796 - 05/13/08 10:32 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
WinyardPro Offline
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Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
.
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#701805 - 05/13/08 10:47 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
WinyardPro Offline
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Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
VirDIS Guys!
_________________________

WINYARD-PRODUCTIONS.COM

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#701848 - 05/14/08 12:25 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: WinyardPro]
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Isn't 300 rather high for an ebay sale?

DanT

Just noticed that VirDis isn't a sponser of the new forum..... wonder why?


Edited by uptildawn (05/14/08 12:27 AM)
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uptildawn

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#701861 - 05/14/08 01:58 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
WinyardPro Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
Just the other day Bill Casey (VirDIS developer) said he’s been trying to sponsor for a while but nobody is returning his calls or emails??? So your guess is as good as mine…
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#701986 - 05/14/08 11:56 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: WinyardPro]
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
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Loc: on land
Just got an email from him today explaining that the price is indeed at 299 now and that they are selling on ebay.

I haven't checked out the new version yet... still waiting to receive it... but I've always liked what Bill has done to help the VS community stay alive.
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uptildawn

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#702314 - 05/15/08 03:15 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
WinyardPro Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
uptildawn - like the user name! :-)

Are you aware of the new features? CD Mastering etc...
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WINYARD-PRODUCTIONS.COM

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#702363 - 05/15/08 10:02 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: WinyardPro]
uptildawn Online   content
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Registered: 12/15/01
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As I said.... I haven't gotten the new version to check out yet... so no, haven't tried the new features.

I have known that Bill was working on lots of ideas, including cd burning directly from the program since getting VirDis a couple years ago.
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uptildawn

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#703146 - 05/17/08 12:10 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
WinyardPro Offline
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Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
 Originally Posted By: uptildawn
As I said.... I haven't gotten the new version to check out yet... so no, haven't tried the new features.

I have known that Bill was working on lots of ideas, including cd burning directly from the program since getting VirDis a couple years ago.


Yeah, with the CD Burning stuff Bill has been able to allow creation of a .BIN and Cue file that can remain on your HDD until required.

Whenever a Master CD is required you just burn it from your HDD to your CD or DVD Burner all within the PC.

I'm trying to remember if a VS1680 has a CD Capture/CD Import function? Anyway, that's a feature also.
_________________________

WINYARD-PRODUCTIONS.COM

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#703164 - 05/17/08 01:45 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: WinyardPro]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Nope, no cd capture, .wav export or import, no nothin'....... but hey, you can play a cd in the roland burner at super slow, sluggish performance speeds.... what more could a guy want?....



It can do cd-r backup and recover.... that's about it.... oh, and write audio cds slower than it takes to write the songs, record them and sell 'em at a show. \:\)
_________________________
uptildawn

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#703450 - 05/18/08 01:45 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
WinyardPro Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
 Originally Posted By: uptildawn
Nope, no cd capture, .wav export or import, no nothin'....... but hey, you can play a cd in the roland burner at super slow, sluggish performance speeds.... what more could a guy want?....

It can do cd-r backup and recover.... that's about it.... oh, and write audio cds slower than it takes to write the songs, record them and sell 'em at a show. \:\)


In that case VirDIS will allow the Mastering to the PC HDD and Play back via the CD Player function and Backup of course.

And you can convert tracks directly into .wav using the VS Wave Export software.

But you still get DVD Backup if you have a DVD Burner. 4.7GB per DVD-R isn’t too bad.

Direct recording too!

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#925232 - 11/29/09 10:17 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
Fred_Flintstone Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 14
It seems that all I ever see is "PC" and never a mention of storing/retrieving data with a MacBook. I have no "PC"... only a Mac.
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#925398 - 11/29/09 10:38 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Fred_Flintstone]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
These utilities don't work on macs to my knowledge.

I see you posted another question in a new thread, too... probably a good thing, although I don't know that there's an answer to your question. I don't use a mac, myself.
_________________________
uptildawn

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#939716 - 01/12/10 05:52 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Fred_Flintstone]
WinyardPro Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
VirDIS will be available in a Ethernet version some time this year and this will work on Mac, PC and Linux.
_________________________

WINYARD-PRODUCTIONS.COM

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#982034 - 05/30/10 02:38 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
darthfader Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/26/10
Posts: 32
good day everyone!

i just tried to backup my main harddisc from my recorder with the windows aplication!

the aplication is simple to use,but when i go to drive analysis it starts and then it brakes up.

does anyone know a better way or a more save way to backup the harddisc files.

the recorder doesnot recognize one of two partitions.if i open the folder on my pc anything is there,i just need something to read and convert the data.

the problem is the app is givingg up to early need something that converts all it could convert without holding on errors!

it starts to read(vs wave export,partition analysis)
finds alot of songs and stops with the failor:
"failed to read directory entries" 424: object required

when i try to exportt these files this happens:
no project selected(partition is selected)



the most recordings are lv2 files and are not supported by the app!

what can i do is there something else another app?

would be very thankfull for some help

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#995420 - 08/26/10 04:17 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: darthfader]
WinyardPro Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 3946
Loc: Great Southern Land.
This also applies to the Roland VS1680 etc...

Great news for Roland CDR Burner replacement!

Update!

There you go... Notice in this screen shot how the VirDIS GUI is showing a project recover: Drive (D:) "Multi-disc set 3 of 3"?

This is one project spanning over THREE CD-R's. This is the VS2480 taking a VS2480 project back-up from the PC CD/DVD Burner via VirDIS to the VS2480's Internal HDD.

After each disc #1, #2, #3 the VS2480 asks for each disc and the PC CD/DVD Burner draw/tray will open and the next disc is inserted just like a VS2480 internal burner or external Roland CDRII/III burner.

More later.


_________________________

WINYARD-PRODUCTIONS.COM

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#1065216 - 09/06/11 01:32 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
chuychayote Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 1
Loc: irving, tx
Hello all, I have a QPS-525 CD Rack for sale on Ebay if anyone is interested. We used it with a VS 1880, but I'm sure it would work on other models. You can check it out at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330610674574?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Comes with the 50-25 pin cable, power cable, an 18gb HD in a case, and an extra EMPTY HD case you can get a drive for to double your storage. I ordered the HD swappable cases straight from roland, so chances are they have more and you could add MANY SCSI drives. Thanks and email me here, or better yet on ebay, if you have any questions.

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#1065393 - 09/06/11 11:02 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: chuychayote]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
How did you EVER get those drive caddies?!!! I could never find them when I looked (over the course of many years).

Good luck with the sale!
That's a great unit.

________________
Edit for spelling. \:\)


Edited by uptildawn (06/16/13 08:48 PM)
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1076062 - 10/26/11 06:16 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
DEMONMASTER62 Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 3634
Loc: Central Florida
those caddies were screwey. paid close to 600 bucks for one at sam ash, back in the early days. crashed in less than 2 months. Right after the return time ran out, of course. sets out on my patio with other junk, to remind me to make sure I get extended warranties from then on.
_________________________
R.I.P. VS-PLANET RADIO

http://soundcloud.com/demonmaster62

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/KODAJYNX
Yes, KODA JYNX is my other life.

http://kodajynx.blogspot.com/






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#1076142 - 10/26/11 11:48 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: DEMONMASTER62]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Ouch! That's why I never got one back when I first got the Rack.
Ouch on the extended warranties too! I think they're a rip most of the time..... maybe not for a hard drive...
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1114091 - 03/27/12 10:36 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
Nsureit Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 30
Loc: TX
Well, I successfully backed up 10 songs from my VS-1680 using my "new" old Plextor PX-W4012S, so it can be added to the list. Did it at 4x speed (760Kbps) with Verify=Off.


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#1114133 - 03/28/12 01:34 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Nsureit]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
Again...... great to know!
Double-check that you can re-load them to the VS.
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1114866 - 03/31/12 05:45 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
Nsureit Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 30
Loc: TX
I successfully performed a recovery of a single backed up song, and multiple backups.

Did it with the Plextor PX-W4012S as pictured above.

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#1121227 - 05/03/12 03:23 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Nsureit]
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8511
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
nice
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#1224005 - 06/16/13 07:57 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: danmanisa]
Virtual_Minstrel Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: new zealand
It occurs to me that with a MIDI card on the PC, a sync can be done between the VS DAW and the PC using MIDI Clock or MTC, and a digital cable connected to the SP/Dif output, with a Roland EDIROL SP/Dif /USB converter. A lengthy process, but stereo pairs can be transferred across to the pc in real time, and simply recorded into your favourite pc DAW.
_________________________
VS-880 ... ten yrs & beyond ... still going strong.

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#1224015 - 06/16/13 08:56 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Virtual_Minstrel]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Originally Posted By: Virtual_Minstrel
It occurs to me that with a MIDI card on the PC, a sync can be done between the VS DAW and the PC using MIDI Clock or MTC, and a digital cable connected to the SP/Dif output, with a Roland EDIROL SP/Dif /USB converter. A lengthy process, but stereo pairs can be transferred across to the pc in real time, and simply recorded into your favourite pc DAW.

So true, so true.
In fact, the method that many people used for years - even before I was willing to venture into PC-land, myself.

Creating a method (or methods) for data backup of VS songs to PC is/has been quite a different story. Thankfully, a very small handfull of really great folk have made a few methods possible.

Advantages in respect to audio quality having been that a person can retain not only perfect sync between tracks, but also the original sample and bit rate - and do so without the time-consuming process that re-recording between the machines requires.
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1260297 - 11/20/13 10:02 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: FlametopFred]
hinchmusicman Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 11/19/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Upstate NY.

Just bought a VS 1824 CD used, it needs a new CDR burner drive,
I can hear the laser locking up..Unit doesn't read or play any CD's

Anybody know where I can find a replacement for this CD drive

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#1263802 - 12/08/13 07:38 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: hinchmusicman]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
Just picked up my first system, looking for ways to transfer to Mac (wav), maybe card readers?

Edited by Plugg3dIn (02/02/14 02:18 PM)

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#1263817 - 12/08/13 11:55 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
I'm not knowledgeable enough about these to know how each adapter's specs influence your results when using them with the VS, but if it were me.... I'd get the CF reader and the SD to CF adapter for the VS side. That has the potential for more flexibility, since you could use both SD and CF cards.

I also don't know the depth of detail needed to advise properly about which card is "better" to use in the VS, but my own earlier testing showed me that the range of SD cards, based on class, is pretty limited. For example, I had better results with class 6 cards than with class 10 cards.

I've also read that CF cards "could" be a better choice than SD, but again, I don't have the understanding to tell you why, or which ones outperform the SD card-type...

You will likely find it necessary to find the perfect matches through trial and error, which is another reason I personally favor the CF/SD combo choices.

I assume you've already gotten the Mac side of your solution figured out, or taken care of, with some sort of multi-card reader installed in the computer? If not, consider getting a multi-card reader that reads both CF and SDHC/SD card types, at least. If you get the CF reader for the VS and have the right reader on your mac, then you can actually leave an SD card inserted in the CF adapter and not have to swap it out to go to the mac.

Some food for thought, anyway.
Best of luck.



Edited by uptildawn (12/08/13 11:56 AM)
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1264569 - 12/11/13 04:40 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7

I have a CD burner on the way (Plextor off ebay)


Edited by Plugg3dIn (12/18/13 02:15 PM)

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#1264590 - 12/11/13 05:35 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
what about these? anyone have experience?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000067RWK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

i would want to get a usb female to female adapter then just plug in a usb key for backups.


Edited by Plugg3dIn (12/18/13 02:16 PM)

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#1264593 - 12/11/13 05:54 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6314
Loc: abq,nm,usa
ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT WORK!!! Do not try it, you will probably fry something...
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#1264774 - 12/12/13 01:14 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: bear]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
 Originally Posted By: bear
ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT WORK!!! Do not try it, you will probably fry something...



ok thanks.


Edited by Plugg3dIn (12/18/13 02:16 PM)

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#1264904 - 12/12/13 09:59 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
You need to be sure and use a scsi-based external drive....... and then, only one that you are certain can do VS data backup and recovery....... not simply write audio cd's.
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1265003 - 12/13/13 01:38 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: FlametopFred]
europa_man Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 47
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Give this site a check:
http://www.ebay.ca/usr/pro_oem_stereo

I just installed a 20 gig hard drive in my VS-1680.
You may want to consider just replacing the hard drive to get up & running again.
Would be the quickest & easiest way to go until you find a SCSI drive.


Edited by europa_man (12/13/13 01:41 PM)

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#1265164 - 12/14/13 12:19 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: europa_man]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
I'm just looking for an easy way to transfer the audio files to my mac.

I picked this up on ebay, I hope it will work...:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181281572130

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#1265170 - 12/14/13 01:02 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6314
Loc: abq,nm,usa
 Originally Posted By: Plugg3dIn
I'm just looking for an easy way to transfer the audio files to my mac.

I picked this up on ebay, I hope it will work...:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181281572130


It will not work. All of the USB to SCSI adapters are meant to adapt a computer MASTER to a SCSI SLAVE (like a harddrive or a zip drive). The VS is a SCSI MASTER... best case NOTHING will happen... worst case something will smoke...

Now if you got a EXTERNAL SCSI drive, you could use it to write stuff from the VS, then unplug it and (presuming this adapter works with the drive) plug it into the computer. However, then you are left with files you can do nothing with on a MAC - VSWE only works under windows.

The ONLY way to directly hook up the SCSI port on a VS to a computer is through VIRDIS, and I do not think it works with MAC...

Your best option is to use the CD ripper and VSWE -- but again no MAC. You can run under bootcamp though..

But you are going to have to introduce windows into your workflow somehow. Either with a separate machine or a separate OS partition under bootcamp or parallels.

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#1265204 - 12/14/13 03:40 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: bear]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
Ok thanks

Edited by Plugg3dIn (12/18/13 02:17 PM)

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#1265352 - 12/15/13 03:19 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: bear]
Plugg3dIn Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 7
How about external scsi card reader

Edited by Plugg3dIn (12/18/13 02:17 PM)

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#1265353 - 12/15/13 03:26 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: Plugg3dIn]
bear Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6314
Loc: abq,nm,usa
Reaper plugin is windows only
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#1265491 - 12/15/13 03:44 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: bear]
jerry1d Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 142
Bear, you are truly a mentor to us here, very generous with your time and sharing of knowledge. Please don't ever go, you are a true inspiration.
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#1268520 - 12/29/13 01:21 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: bear]
rikusan Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 126
so, to beat this thing to death (1880 owner here) virdis is the way to go. in another thread where this subject was being bantered about people talked about using a CF / SD card set up. i am wondering if that kind of set up would work in my CD rack for some recording but mostly back up and exporting to PC purposes

and HAPPY NEW YEAR everybody
god, i can't wait to get off being on call, i need a drink !

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#1268556 - 12/29/13 03:00 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: rikusan]
uptildawn Online   content
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8899
Loc: on land
 Originally Posted By: rikusan
... i am wondering if that kind of set up would work in my CD rack for some recording but mostly back up and exporting to PC purposes...


Absolutely!
Used to be a very cheaply obtained DIY solution, too... but not so much anymore. Someone figured out how valuable those SCSI bridge cards (a major component of the conversion box) were becoming to VS users and suddenly there weren't any used cards around anymore (a shock to me!). New cards run in the neighborhood of $160-$250 (US).

I managed to make a couple of these units up for myself and a friend a few years ago... the first one cost me about $100, including the case and power supply, but the one I made for the friend cost me $150 just for the SCSI bridge card (a year later).

I've got a conversion made up in a CD Rack, by the way, so I can speak from personal experience that this works pretty well. Mine uses a SCSI/IDE bridge (not SATA) and there is a significant amount of lag time from button push to reaction when operating from this external drive... maybe more so when using an IDE hard drive, as opposed to an SD or CF card.... but a lag nonetheless. I don't know if that lag time is improved by the use of a SCSI/SATA bridge card.

Everything else about it is for the convenience and I really like that about it. I've created converters for ide hard drive, SD and CF cards... all useable in this one CD Rack drive bay.

I didn't go with the preinstalled Glyph drive tray however. They just seemed to expensive for my tastes... don't know about availability or prices these days, but worth looking into, since you'll need a compatible caddy to mount your adapter into, unless you plan on just not incorporating the installed system into your design. I found an alternaive drive tray and caddy
for my own setup. That way, I could slide the entire caddy/case in and out of the Rack and lock it into place as you would with any removable drive system.

Hope this gives you some ideas. (Sorry if this is regurgitated nonsense from my previous posts in this thread... I didn't go back and re-read all the previous posts) \:\)
_________________________
uptildawn

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#1721413 - 03/16/21 05:09 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD) [Re: uptildawn]
danhames Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 01/13/18
Posts: 1
Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if any of you have the latest information on CD-R drives?

I have dug out my old VS-1680 and a stack of CDs where all my old music is stored, inaccessible because my Roland issued QueDrive QPS-525 failed long ago.

- Now it's 2021, do we have an up-to-date list of what SCSI CD-R drives are still around, compatible with the 1680?
- Is there yet any alternative means of accessing the data on these old CDs?

I've been researching this every couple of years or so, all in vain.

Thanks!

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