Page 1 of 3 123>
Topic Options
#17858 - 01/23/07 02:54 PM Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8447
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
Seems to be an ongoing problem of backing up VS-1680 Data. Seems like all the older CD-Burners are dying. Seems like SCSI still can be used.

I need to do something, know there are others (judging by every second thread here) in the same boat. And while combing the local Craigslist or eBay for used CD writers (gambling with compatibility), realize we can also make use of the SONG VAULT.

Hoping to put all resources we know of here - all the options for 1680 (and other VS machines) owners.

a) What's the link for the VS Song Vault, the SCSI hard drive that acts as an 18Gb or 20Gb drive?

b) What other build-options do we have: how can we commission a local computer builder (or do it ourselves) into building a VS-Compatible SCSI Drive backup system. What are the specs? What are the maximums and minimums?

c) Compatible CD Burners (known list from VS Planet Search).


JVC --
XR-W2010R2626
XR-W2040
XR-W2042 ***

TEAC --
CD-R55S
CD-R56S
CD-W512SB

RICOH --
MP6200S

PLEXTOR QPS --
CD-R PX-R412C
CD-R PX-R820T
CD-R PX-W4220T
CD-R PX-W8220T
CD-R PX-W124TS
CD-R PX-W8432T
CD-R PX-W1210S
CD-R PX-W

SANYO --
GENERIC CRD-BP4SyQuestSyJet

MATSHITA --
UJDA330
UJDA340


d) I know others here have come up with some brilliant .wav conversions ... I don't understand that, would it be possible to put all that information here (or links) and some kind of "how to" explanation, ie: summary?


e)Anything from Roland?
Just wondering if Roland has any long-term solutions for this? Or if there is some proprietary information we need when putting together a bigger SCSI Hard Drive Data Backup system.

Cheers and thanks ... hoping to resolve this once and for all. Have been unable to use 1680 for two years because no back up device. Stuck.
_________________________
FTF: Official Thread Killer since 1999


Top
#17859 - 01/23/07 03:03 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
will Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 2228
Loc: home in holland
a) song vault-site
_________________________
my site my band


Top
#17860 - 01/23/07 05:07 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
buster 'n babs Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 1420
Loc: burlington, canada
great idea for a resource list flametop. all of us 1680 users are going to get into trouble finding parts someday.

i use external HD's for short term backup (using the Copy Playable function), one HD for each of my two 1680's. (use vs-pro to link them)

when a project is over, i use the CD data backup function into my original plextor burner that came with my first 1680. (if that one crashes, i have a spare burner that i haven't used yet.) then i erase the data from both the IDE and the external HD. also keep a copy of the master on CD.

i have another burner i use to make quick audio copies of rough mixes etc. for clients (connected thru direct outs).

this system serves me well.
_________________________
buster n' babbles
www.jazzkitchenstudio.com
our IAC page - buster and babbles

our IAC page - the Jazz Kitchen

Our MySpace page



Groove. Heal. Inspire.

Top
#17861 - 01/23/07 06:39 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8447
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
I am hoping to resolve the problem. If not once and for all, certainly for 5 years or so.

I will probably buy the Song Vault - but with Canadian duty and exchange, this is getting upwards in cost. Nertz. More than I would like to spend, but then what price on backing up my music? This kind of money should be going towards a new microphone or a new guitar or lessons of some kind. I hate technology but also love technology.

Song Vault looks like a great idea ... not sure that I could build something myself ;\)
_________________________
FTF: Official Thread Killer since 1999


Top
#17862 - 01/25/07 06:08 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
knurrhahn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Switzerland
Hi,
maybe this one will add to this thread.

My SCSI to IDE solution

Greetings
Knurrhahn

Top
#17863 - 01/25/07 06:56 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8447
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
W O W !

That is pretty cool, and might solve so many problems. HOW DO I DO THAT?

Please explain to me, as though explaining to a slow, mentally challenged child.

What do I need? Where can I get?

Thanks!
_________________________
FTF: Official Thread Killer since 1999


Top
#17864 - 01/30/07 12:55 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Tony B Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/16/04
Posts: 231
Loc: Minnesota
Hi all:

This device costs only $69.00, and
attaches directly to your IDE HD...

http://www.addonics.com/products/io/ide_scsi.asp

Since there are no drivers involved, the OS really is not an issue. It should work with your VS's. What you will need is the adapter to go from the SCSI connector on this device to your existing SCSI cable or directly to the VS.

Tony B

Top
#17865 - 01/31/07 02:16 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
knurrhahn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Switzerland
Damn,

this looks much better than mine.
*Grumpf*

Top
#17866 - 01/31/07 08:49 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tony B:
http://www.addonics.com/products/io/ide_scsi.asp

Since there are no drivers involved, the OS really is not an issue. It should work with your VS's. What you will need is the adapter to go from the SCSI connector on this device to your existing SCSI cable or directly to the VS.

Tony B
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17867 - 01/31/07 09:44 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
 Quote:
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
Yes, except I've used the Acard bridge cards:

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=022314

works quite nicely.

Top
#17868 - 02/02/07 07:50 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
 Quote:
Has anybody tried using this adapter kit with the VS? Not a bad deal for those spare IDE drives after upgrading the pc.
Yes, except I've used the Acard bridge cards:

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=022314

works quite nicely.
HA! I was just looking for this thread that you had made reference to. I found it the other day, but forgot to bookmark it.


I was actually wondering about the specific adapter you posted the link for, but I like what you've done anyhoo.
I've got a 10 gig external in a case that I got some time back just for this kind of thing. The drive (or something I hadn't yet determined) had malfunctioned and I could no longer use the thing so it got shelved for over a year now. I want to revive it now, having read your thread.

The drive in the case was originally designed to let me go back and forth from the VS to the PC, possibly through the printer port (I don't recall at the moment). Something got screwed up after using it successfully for over a year and now the Roland won't recognize it and IIRC, the pc would freeze when I tried to reformat it.

By the way... any suggestions you might have to salvage this drive would be helpful since I know just enough about this stuff to get myself in trouble... not much more.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17869 - 02/02/07 09:31 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
I'm not sure I understand the setup you're talking about. Elaborate ...

10 gb scsi drive? (that would seem to be the case since you're not mentioning that you have a scsi to ide bridge adapter)
Get a pc pci scsi card to test it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/IOMEGA-ABP-960-PCI-S...1QQcmdZViewItem

or similar - with drive all set up and connected inside the enclosure, and the enclosure connected to the card through a scsi cable - with diagnostics that you can probably get from the manufacturer. The first thing I would do is get the card and hook the enclosure up and see if the pc can "see" any files on the drive.

As I said before, the card also comes in handy in transferring songs that you would back up to the external drive to your pc and using the rangygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion software to convert them to wav file (bear's converts backup CDs so it's not a necessity to get the card to do this - but if you're using the external drive, then you don't have to make back up CDs).

 Quote:
Something got screwed up after using it successfully for over a year and now the Roland won't recognize it and IIRC, the pc would freeze when I tried to reformat it.
I think you're saying you had both the pc and the vs connected to it at the same time, and I don't think that is a good idea, which might be why you developed problems:

http://www.vsplanet.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022210

Big Red did mention in my post that an AB switch would work ...

I don't know how you could have had anything working connected to the pc parallel port.

Here's an ebay link on an ide to scsi adapter bridge - price is reasonable. There are others out on ebay now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ACARD-AEC-7720U-50-p...1QQcmdZViewItem

The adapter that Tony refers and links to above looks good to me also.

Top
#17870 - 02/02/07 11:35 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
I'm not sure I understand the setup you're talking about. Elaborate ...
Gosh! Didn't expect a reply so soon... seems to take days lately compared to a year or two ago. You hardly gave me time to find the drive and hook it up to see what the heck I was talking about! \:D

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:

10 gb scsi drive? (that would seem to be the case since you're not mentioning that you have a scsi to ide bridge adapter)
Get a pc pci scsi card to test it...
or similar - with drive all set up and connected inside the enclosure, and the enclosure connected to the card through a scsi cable -
Well, as it turns out, this is actually a standard Seagate pc IDE drive with the scsi card adapter, cables and case very similar to what you show in your pics... Who woulda thunk! :rolleyes:

I'd forgotten what I had in the two years I had it shelved.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:

As I said before, the card also comes in handy in transferring songs that you would back up to the external drive to your pc and using the rangygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion software to convert them to wav file (bear's converts backup CDs so it's not a necessity to get the card to do this - but if you're using the external drive, then you don't have to make back up CDs).
Since it is now working, I think... reformatting as I type.... I'm very curious about this part. Will the pc just recognize the hard drive hooked up to the scsi card and allow me to use the randygo/bear/danielo rdac conversion stuff (there's gotta be a simpler name somewhere, don't you think? ;\) ) to grab those Roland songs like I can do with the backup cds?
I really can't remember now how I got that to work before... I'm pretty sure now that I hooked it up to the pc via the scsi and not the printer port as I stated before. I remember having to use the hookup on the back of my scanner to daisychain the drive to the pc via the pci scsi
card.

I don't recall if there's something specific I have to do in regards to formatting the drive... Do I have to format it with Windows at all, or just the Roland. I know the Roland won't let me use it without formatting with the Roland... Suggestions??? I really can't recall.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
...I think you're saying you had both the pc and the vs connected to it at the same time, and I don't think that is a good idea, which might be why you developed problems...
I was very carefull to keep the scsi separated between the VS and the pc... In fact, I used one of the A/B switches you have been talking about with great success. Somewhere along the line I must have mucked it up though.... things happen.

In fact, when I finally got it hooked up tonight I initially thought it had simply been a partially connected cable because that internal connection between the scsi adapter and the IDE drive in the external case is quite loose... not snug at all.
Turns out that the Roland won't let me access one of the partitions however. The Info page shows all the partitions and the size of each one... except for one, which it shows as having XXXMB instead of something like 2,000MB.

Too late now to bother with extensive recovery efforts..... I got what I needed from the other partitions and am now running a complete format and scan... I'm not gonna bother with the expense and time of trying to recover whatever lost data is on there since it's been a couple of years and I seem to have done okay without it.
Although I can't help but wonder if the original multi-track version of one song I am working on right now may have been on that partition.

Oh WELL!

Thanks for your assistance and you excellent solution! :thumb:
Looks like I won't need to get that adapter afterall now.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17871 - 02/03/07 12:21 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
Looks like you figured it out - has to be formatted with the Roland ...

From the way you're talking, your pc already has a scsi port so you don't need the scsi pci card that I talk about - you're already set to go ...

To use randygo's RDAC conversion program:

I connect the scsi enclosure to the pc and copy the entire contents to the pc. Each partition appears as a folder to the pc - I bring everything in as it appears - folders and associated files - under a single pc folder (I hope I'm clear here - I'm preserving the folder and file structure seen on the external drive onto the pc). If I do this again in two months, I put it in another separate folder.

My thinking is - if that external drive goes bad, it's backed up to pc. I get another drive and copy the entire folder of choice to the new drive.

I'm using randygo's dll to directly open the Roland files up in Reaper (I've tried bear's program once with a backup CD, and I have not tried Danielo's at all yet). It seems to be a cool app. It is so cool to open up songs that I recorded on the Roland and hear them on my pc. I'm thinking that I am going to learn to mix and master on the pc through Reaper, and record and track with the Roland.

Since you also have the scsi ide adapter card, as well as the ide drive, and enclosre, you appear to have everything you need ...

Look for groups of 20 gb ide drives on ebay - search on "lot", "ide", and "20". I picked up 4 20 gb ide drvies for about $50.

Top
#17872 - 02/03/07 12:43 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
FlametopFred:

 Quote:
I know others here have come up with some brilliant .wav conversions ... I don't understand that, would it be possible to put all that information here (or links) and some kind of "how to" explanation, ie: summary?
There are basically three programs that have been written, with variations off of that. randygo has written a program or dll that can be put in a Reaper folder, and if you copy songs from an external hard drive or zip drive to a pc folder, you can open these file up in Reaper directly. bear wrote a program that basically rips the data from a CD, and I believe creates files that look like the external drive files - not certain on that. danielo's program, I believe uses bear's process - can't remember and not sure - and creates wav files. Some of these programs might do more or less - I'm just giving a high level overview. I have an external drive, I've decide to use randygo's.

Funkybeat's instructions for the CD conversion (ripping from a CD and also opening in Reaper, I believe - includes some things on installing Reaper):

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022237

For the conversion of files taken from an external drive, I simply moved the files to the pc from the external drive through a scsi card/port, installed Reaper, put randygo's conversion dll in the appropriate folder per his instructions, and open the Roland files from within Reaper. Real easy to do.

Danielo's instructions (ripping from a CD and creating wav files):

http://www.thegoodlibrary.com/VSWaveExport.html

The only process, of course, thar I'm very familiar with is ranfygo's - it's just been since before Christmas that I last played with it - I can provide more detailed instructions at some point when I go back and look at what I did.

 Quote:
Anything from Roland?
Just wondering if Roland has any long-term solutions for this? Or if there is some proprietary information we need when putting together a bigger SCSI Hard Drive Data Backup system.
In my humble opinion, nothing - never, ever again. An update to the OS would have to be made for it to recognize bigger and better systems, if that can even be considered. I doubt that Roland will ever consider that at this point, and I guess I don't blame them. Remember, the 1680/1880 cpu is quite old, there are limitations with it being able to keep up with technology even if Roland so desired to improve it.

The only options that I see are:

if a tricked up solution can be figured out by someone smart - flash cards as they become bigger, maybe? or ..

virDIS maybe? still would be a 16 gb limit - maybe multiple patitions could be set up on the pc? I'm not sure where the status of virDIS is with the 1680 - it was really developed for the 2480. I think it basically works for the 1680, but I'm not sure how much testing has been done, and I'm not sure what the limitations are. It's pricey, although cheaper than the prices you were throwing out for those drive farms, but the price has come down ...

Top
#17873 - 02/03/07 02:42 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
Looks like you figured it out - has to be formatted with the Roland ...

From the way you're talking, your pc already has a scsi port so you don't need the scsi pci card that I talk about - you're already set to go ...

To use randygo's RDAC conversion program:

I connect the scsi enclosure to the pc and copy the entire contents to the pc. Each partition appears as a folder to the pc - I bring everything in as it appears - folders and associated files - under a single pc folder (I hope I'm clear here - I'm preserving the folder and file structure seen on the external drive onto the pc). If I do this again in two months, I put it in another separate folder.

My thinking is - if that external drive goes bad, it's backed up to pc. I get another drive and copy the entire folder of choice to the new drive.

I'm using randygo's dll to directly open the Roland files up in Reaper (I've tried bear's program once with a backup CD, and I have not tried Danielo's at all yet). It seems to be a cool app. It is so cool to open up songs that I recorded on the Roland and hear them on my pc. I'm thinking that I am going to learn to mix and master on the pc through Reaper, and record and track with the Roland.

Since you also have the scsi ide adapter card, as well as the ide drive, and enclosre, you appear to have everything you need ...

Look for groups of 20 gb ide drives on ebay - search on "lot", "ide", and "20". I picked up 4 20 gb ide drvies for about $50.
Thanks for your continued help! I can confirm that I can now access the scsi hard drive without problems. I have also confirmed your method of connecting the drive to the pc to drag the contents of the partitions and store them on the pc... have not tried opening the songs in reaper, but I imagine it's the same as using randygo's dll with reaper on a cdr conversion?...

Since I have cdr backups, virdis backups AND scsi drive backups now, it looks like I will make ample use of all of these awsome new methods for saving my valuable VS recordings.

Glad to know there are still small hard drives floating around to be had vor cheap.... thanks for the ebay suggestion.

One problem I now have is that Bill Casey's VirDis scsi card doesn't work like a standard card (not the same type of driver?... I don't know these things well) and therefore the pc does not see the external scsi drive through this port. I can use it with the pc that has the scsi scanner so all is not lost. I may have to give Bill a call and see if there's some way around this problem.

Is there a cheap, easy adapter I could use to hook up the external scsi drive to the pc via the printer port (I don't use it on the virdis pc.)?

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17874 - 02/03/07 04:03 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
betelgeuse Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 399
Loc: Irving, Texas
 Quote:
...but I imagine it's the same as using randygo's dll with reaper on a cdr conversion?...
Once you have the files in a folder, and have put randygo's dll in the proper Reaper dll folder, it is as simple as using the file open function, and selecting Roland as the file type, and going to the folders that you put the data files in and selecting a song.

 Quote:
Since I have cdr backups, virdis backups AND scsi drive backups now, it looks like I will make ample use of all of these awsome new methods for saving my valuable VS recordings.
Interesting ... do you use virDIS with a 1680 or a 2480? If with a 1680 I'd love as many details as to how it is working for you - gb capacity, etc.

There was some rdac conversion activity going on with virDIS - I don't know where it's at now ...


danielo made a comment in the 2480 forum:

 Quote:
I think youre wrong on this one.
I transfered 1680 projects to the 2480 via an 2GB JAZ drive. Just formated, copied (playable), hooked to the 2480 and imported. as easy as this.
I think it should not make a difference if its a HD or a 2GB JAZ.
PaulMiller made a response:

 Quote:
Yes and no - it might work in import mode from a Jaz/Zip drive but it is very different when it comes to a SCSI attached HDD. It doesn't work; I tested this for Bill Casey. So Brett is correct here.

Why I understand this is because - Bill Casey VirDIS developer realised early on that the .BIN files that emulate the SCSI HDD must save as a removable type media, like a SCSI ZIP/JAZ Drive.

Fortunately Roland didn't put a G/Byte limit on the Jaz/Zip drives; yep these things could go to 120 GB. Bill demonstrated import of VS880 files into the VS2480 via the VirDIS .BIN files via the import function, the VS2480 seeing the media as an emulated removable media type such as ZIP or JAZ.

Sorry guys but we've tried it.
No commentary other than I guess I'm curious if using virDIS for a 1680 - can the 16 gb limit be broken?

If you've got a 2480, then never-mind ..

 Quote:
One problem I now have is that Bill Casey's VirDis scsi card doesn't work like a standard card (not the same type of driver?... I don't know these things well) and therefore the pc does not see the external scsi drive through this port. I can use it with the pc that has the scsi scanner so all is not lost. I may have to give Bill a call and see if there's some way around this problem.
I wouldn't think that there's a way around that problem.

You might want to go ahead and get a scsi pci card like I said above if your pc has an extra open pci slot - it would make life easier.

I got the card for about $20 plus shipping from ebay - quite cheap ...

Top
#17875 - 02/04/07 10:43 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse: [QUOTE] ...Once you have the files in a folder, and have put randygo's dll in the proper Reaper dll folder, it is as simple as using the file open function, and selecting Roland as the file type, and going to the folders that you put the data files in and selecting a song.
I figured as much, but haven't tried it yet since the scsi pci card is on another machine and I'm preoccupied with moving VS files to dvd backup at the moment on the virdis machine.

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
Interesting ... do you use virDIS with a 1680 or a 2480? If with a 1680 I'd love as many details as to how it is working for you - gb capacity, etc.
1680VX.... and 880VX I worked with Bill on and off over the summer trying to track down some of the issues he was having... it seemed to boil down to two things, one vcd related and the other vhd related. I'm behind the game a bit in virdis world (version 2.15)and I think Bill has been working on an update to fix more issues. I just really got around to checking out 2.15 this week and He's made some significant progress where the 1680 is concerned.

One thing he's managed for the 1680 (and other non-2480 versions)is to force virdis to set up vhds that are larger than 1G (I'm guessing from my work yesterday) in advance of the Roland format routine. Works great and solved a big issue from this summer. I have yet to mess with changes he's made to the vcd section although I assume we still can't get wav files from the iso it creates since it appeared that this was an exclusive of the 2480 and beyond...... I HOPE I'M WRONG!

 Quote:
Originally posted by betelgeuse:
OTHER QUOTES ABOUT IMPORTING BETWEEN THE 2480 AND OTHERS ...No commentary other than I guess I'm curious if using virDIS for a 1680 - can the 16 gb limit be broken?
I haven't checked yet because I'm preoccupied and don't want to use up the hard drive space at just this moment, but I'm curious too and will report what I find out.

What I've done to this point, and I'm inclined to be comfortable with simply because of the 2G partition limit in the 1680 (what a joke!) is to create a vhd of no more than 2G, make copy-playables of songs to it until it is nearly full (just as I would normally) and then use the vswaveexport program to create wav files of each of the tracks for editing in SawStudio... or whatever app. I need at the time.

This allows me to make a backup dvd which contains a VS playable session to retain any FX/automation settings, etc. that are important (if any) and a folder of wav files for pc editing. It is rare that I want to end up in the Roland, so getting edited files back to the VS isn't part of my current gameplan.

I am limiting my vhds to 2G for the simple reason that the bin file, along with the extracted wavs will be just about what a dvd can store.

Granted, being able to store ALL my VS backups to a single 120G or larger harddrive would be wonderful if the Roland could read the partitions beyond the first 8, but I think the hard limit we face has to do with the Roland restriction of 8/2G partitions. In order to use any hard drive we have to initialize and format using the VS to make playable sessions and the Roland insists on formatting the entire drive regardless of partitioning in advance in Windows (I believe).

I think that this remains true of a VHD as well, so creating one that is larger than 16-17G seems useless. Besides, creating multiple VHDs on a single, large hard drive is not an issue at all.

I don't think that Bill's intention was to create a VHD that playable songs could be written to by the VS... or for that matter, that we could record and edit directly to the VHD. I think that was an unexpected and pleasant discovery. I believe that the Roland will always force the 2G/8 partition limit. This makes creating very large projects on the 1680 an impossible (at least improbable) dream. Again, I hope I'm wrong about all of this and maybe I've mis-spoken.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17876 - 02/05/07 04:48 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
FlametopFred Offline
FlametopFred
Planeteer


Registered: 06/03/99
Posts: 8447
Loc: at the wave ranch dressing
whoa ... this thread gets better and better, and more importantly,
in a language I can actually understand \:\)

There are many great solutions here!
And, more importantly, HOPE!

All is not lost.
Thanks to everyone (so far and next) that have responded! I am stoked on this.
_________________________
FTF: Official Thread Killer since 1999


Top
#17877 - 02/07/07 10:26 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
flatcat Administrator Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 25419
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
At Fred's suggestion, I'm making this a sticky.

Thanks Fred, thanks all. Great stuff.
_________________________
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"

Top
#17878 - 02/07/07 01:23 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
hi all,

i did not read all the posts, but think i have to make some clarifications:

my Application ( http://www.thegoodlibrary.com/VSWaveExport.html ) does not require CD backups. It also reads the VS Data either directly from the VS SCSI or IDE Harddisk, or from files copied from the HD to PC as someone also mentioned in this thread. Furthermore it is possible to directly access VirDis Files which eliminates all Hardware swapping and makes exchange of data possible while both the PC and the VS are running.

cheers

Top
#17879 - 02/07/07 07:14 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
Wow! Danielo...
I didn't even notice the part about grabbing this stuff directly from the VS IDE... It makes sense though.... COOL!
One question (probably kinda dumb)... what's a good way to access the internal drive of the VS using a desktop pc?

I assume an adapter of some kind is needed to go from the 2.5" drive to the pc's cable?

Probably easier in the long run to just use virdis since I have it.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17880 - 02/08/07 05:07 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
ups, youre talking about 1680's internal drive, eh? The app is only tested with 2480 internal drives. as some reported, the 1680 IDE swappes a few bytes which will propably cause the app to deny service. But yes, you need some kind of adapter, ide laptop to ide desktop. Be aware, that you have to remove the internal 1680 drive also from its 'caddy'. The connectors of the caddy are roland specific and will not be connectable to a PC.

I'm planning to spend some time from now till sunday for improvements of the app. i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers

Top
#17881 - 02/08/07 08:46 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
ups, youre talking about 1680's internal drive, eh? The app is only tested with 2480 internal drives. as some reported, the 1680 IDE swappes a few bytes which will propably cause the app to deny service. But yes, you need some kind of adapter, ide laptop to ide desktop. Be aware, that you have to remove the internal 1680 drive also from its 'caddy'. The connectors of the caddy are roland specific and will not be connectable to a PC.

I'm planning to spend some time from now till sunday for improvements of the app. i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers
Personally, I feel doing all that physical manipulation of the hard drive would be a bad thing, especially on a routine basis. I think it'd be a better and safer bet all around for anyone with a non-2480 (series) to either be restricted in this respect (not the best plan) or at least to be HEAVILY advised of the consequences of continually removing the hard drive from its caddy, hooking it up to the adapter, the pc and then replacing it all over and over again.

I remove the IDE drive from the machine all the time to swap it out with the extra drive or two I've accumulated, but I am also very aware of how to treat it when I do so. I also do not need to remove and replace screws all the time to do this since it fits snuggly in the bay, even "latching" into place, allowing me to leave the two mounting screws unattatched. If I move the machine around, I always double check to see that the hard drive is secure before powering up the VS too.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17882 - 02/08/07 08:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
i would spend some time on the swapped bytes if i get a binary image of 100k or more of the drive.

cheers
What would that take? Is it something I can assist with by providing the info? If so, let me know.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17883 - 02/08/07 09:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
>Is it something I can assist with by providing the info?

if you have possibilities to connect one of your drives to a pc, then i would kindly ask you to run a small utility to get drive image and send me the rersulting file. i would then analyze it.

cheers

Top
#17884 - 02/08/07 02:21 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
>Is it something I can assist with by providing the info?

if you have possibilities to connect one of your drives to a pc, then i would kindly ask you to run a small utility to get drive image and send me the rersulting file. i would then analyze it.

cheers
I'll see what I can do.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17885 - 02/08/07 06:19 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
Danielo, I think I understand what you need, but I'm not sure about how to get it for you.
Could you be more specific about what utility you mean and what info you are looking for... in basic terms.... not technical!

I have been transfering VS files to the pc and saving the playable song copies to dvd as well as converting the vr6 files to wav tracks, as well as using VirDis to create bin files for archive backups and song playable copies.

I don't mean to be dense, but would any of that info be helpful, or is it system type files that you need that would be stored on the IDE drive itself?

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17886 - 02/08/07 07:02 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
ok.

can you, or have you ever connected a 1680 Internal Harddisk (the small ones, 2,5 inch a.k.a. laptop hardrive) to a desktop PC?

if the answer is yes, then i will create a small tool to collect the information i need. you just have to download it, run it and send me a mail.

 Quote:

I have been transfering VS files to the pc and saving the playable song copies to dvd as well as converting the vr6 files to wav tracks, as well as using VirDis to create bin files for archive backups and song playable copies.
you say you have transfered VS Files to the PC. Have you done this by connecting the 1680 Internal Harddrive (laptop drive) to your computer?
If the answer is yes, then this contradicts with what other people report.

cheers

Top
#17887 - 02/09/07 09:56 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danielo:
can you, or have you ever connected a 1680 Internal Harddisk (the small ones, 2,5 inch a.k.a. laptop hardrive) to a desktop PC?

if the answer is yes, then i will create a small tool to collect the information i need. you just have to download it, run it and send me a mail.

you say you have transfered VS Files to the PC. Have you done this by connecting the 1680 Internal Harddrive (laptop drive) to your computer?
If the answer is yes, then this contradicts with what other people report.

cheers
[/QUOTE]

No, I haven't connected the internal drive directly to the pc before, but a techie friend tells me it should be easy enough to find the adapter I would need to do that. When I get one I can let you know and hopefully I can help you get the info you need.

No, I haven't directly connected the internal drive to a pc and gotten the files from it that way. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have been taking great advantage of the three utilities that have been offered by YOU (Danielo... THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! \:\) ), Bear and Randygo, as well as Bill Casey's VirDis.
There was a time when I was using an external IDE drive, connected thru a scsi drive case and moving files back and forth from the VS to PC via an A/B switch and this scsi drive case. I believe I remember seeing files unrelated to song files on the drive when connected to the pc..... This is probably not what you want either, is it?... I can only get so far with this stuff before I reveal my HUGE ignorance about computers.

I'll see if I can get a hold of the adapter I need to hook the Roland drive up to the pc and when I do, I'll be more than happy to assist.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17888 - 02/09/07 10:50 AM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
Danielo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 493
Loc: Austria
Thank you Dan. Let me know if you managed to connect the ide drive to the PC.

The connection of SCSI drive to the PC is known to be working normaly (no swapped bytes).

Thanks again.
cheers

Top
#17889 - 03/29/07 03:14 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
I sure wish there was some easy way to connect the ide of the VS to the pc... still haven't found the way without removing the ide from its caddy... which I really don't want to have to do... defeats the purpose of an EASY transfer.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17890 - 06/29/07 07:44 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Ok, I need some help before my head explodes. I am keen to get some more hard disk space as I am still using the original 2gb that initially comes with the 1680.
Can anyone tell me the easiest (and preferably cheapest) way to get more space? I don't want to touch the internal drive at all, I am bound to stuff that up and I cannot live with that!
So, is it just a case of buying a hard drive (any size?) and buying the adapter mentioned by Tony B, and then formatting the drive etc with the 1680?
I am almost certain I am wrong there. Sounds too simple. There are so many solutions here, and i am not a technically minded person for the best part. SO with this many issues and techniques, my head just spins!
Also, is there any issue with storing song info on the external hard drive for long periods of time? For instance, if i can somehow get a huge amount of space, there may be no need to ever (to a point of course) back up to cd-r again. Is that a problem?

Anyway, you people are all wonderful and without this community i would wonder the recording world confusd and depressed more often than not.

Top
#17891 - 07/02/07 12:11 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
uptildawn Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 8508
Loc: Iowa
1- replacing the internal drive is about the easiest thing there is to do on the VS. Take four screws out, take out drive, slide in new drive, put four screws back... in fact, you can just put two screws back if you don't want the hassle.
It's always nice to have the original drive around as a spare also.

2- Any hard drive formatted to work with the VS will only be able to use a maximum of 16 gigs (2 gig partition limit times 8 partitions = 16 gigs). There's some posts around here that mention specific makes/models of 20 gig drives that work well for internal drive replacements. The external drive idea that Tony is talking about requires a SCSI drive enclosure with the correct adapters to an IDE drive (like you would use for a pc) installed in the case, plus the correct adapter cables (and/or adapters) to hook up to the VS and to the pc if you are planning on storing your songs on the pc for increased storage space and faster cd burns. The IDE drive you would buy for this case should also be 20 gigs or less because anything above that is totally wasted space.

Hope this helps.

DanT
_________________________
uptildawn

2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets!
Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
Pharoah Sanders Quartet
Fred Hersch Trio
These are post mixes set to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

Top
#17892 - 07/02/07 02:17 PM Re: Song Vault: Resource Thread for 1680/1880/1824 Data Backup (CD + SCSI HD)
danmanisa Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Yes uptildawn, it does help a lot. In fact you have helped me a great deal in recent weeks as i ease my way back into recording since traveling for over a year. Much appreciated.

Basically, I am looking at investing in vs pro, getting more hard disk space and most probably a new cd burner as my origial one feels like it is onthe way out. Problem is I have limited cash available, so I am trying to get all the info i can on each and make a decision that will give me the most benefit for the least cash (and potential problems!).

One more question: can/if i get a dvd/cd-r burner, I assume that will solve hard disc space (by burning more data on each dvd than the regular cd-r) and it will replace my dying cd burner. Would that be correct?

Top
Page 1 of 3 123>


Hop to:
Shout Box

Who's Online
8 registered (Wish, Dave Morris, calypso, avetter11, 4 invisible) and 16 anonymous users online.
Top Posters
52079
Jazzooo
44076
Al
40001
Silversmith
39196
Timster
32942
Tom Mix
31030
Ismellelephant
29054
Popmann
28853
gonzo
28771
NOK
28716
Mooseboy
27032
moontan
26630
C Jo Go
26507
Doughboy
25419
flatcat
23691
paulb
23563
Marty Gilman
23310
RGR
21692
fabulousthunderbird
21125
fonts
20662
Gretsch 6120
19598
vvvm
19427
String Jammer
19375
Vanillagrits
19343
glensimonds
18923
T57Strat
18894
GAMBLE
18791
Jammer
18086
SteveW
17932
JazAddict
17600
GAWZDigitalUnderground
17522
Geo
17282
Hano
16239
Dave Morris
16210
Liquidirt
16175
Delso
15887
Slabraton
15846
slotz
15821
LakeStone Karl
15464
Milkman
Forum Stats
21080 Members
26 Forums
140174 Topics
1617687 Posts

Max Online: 290 @ 11/19/19 07:32 PM
Newest Members
sammyopop, William1, kelvin, Boomer1900, Pierpsx
21080 Registered Users

Generated in 0.018 seconds in which 0.008 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Zlib compression disabled.