#208356 - 07/18/02 01:31 PM
Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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I seen another post addressed to TonyK I believe, asking on his tips to songwriting. I have written and recorded 100s of songs over the years, and it's been my experience, that the "simplest" ones, seem to be the ones that people who listen to them like.
I say there are no set "rules" on songwriting, I mean listen to some of the new CRAP they play on the radio to prove that theory...ha ha.
I have been told by other writers, that usually one writes the melody, then adds the lyrics later. Myself, I'm the oppisite, I usually, not always, but usually write my lyrics first.
I like my songs to have verses, a bridge, and choruses. and usually at least one lead solo area.
I also feel something that is extremly important to a song, is a "hook", something within the song, that it constantly refers back to. It may be a lyric, it may be a riff.
I feel some songs "suffer" by a soloist getting carried away, I mean even if the person is awesome, it can make the listener become bored after awhile.
Once again, this is just my opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like buttholes, we all have one.
This is a interesting topic though don't you think?
Please share some of your veiws on songwriting.
Jack
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#208357 - 07/18/02 03:00 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Boray
Planeteer
Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 4019
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Good topic!
I recently wrote a bit on how I sometimes compose, in the mp3 forum (about my 25 minutes long instrumental piece "Amzidus"):
http://www.vsplanet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=000688
But it varies greatly. Sometimes I do like I said there, sitting down and improvising while recording it (to remember what I played), then going back to pick out the best parts to work futher on them. I'm mainly into instrumental music. If I make a song with lyrics, I usually do them after the melody is ready - or sometimes in the same time. I think many of my tunes would work with lyrics, but I don't want to destroy them with bad lyrics that people just get tired of. I think that many times lyrics can make a tune worse. Music with singing can somewhat remove the imagination from the listener and make them get tired of it faster. You can also do things like writing yourself while listening to it. But in the same time, singing and lyrics can make a rather weak melody better. A great melody with great lyrics is of course great! But I just don't feel like writing lyrics for some reason. If I write, it's mostly humorous songtexts in Swedish, and you wouldn't understand that anyway. 
Well... something like that.... I could go on, but dinner is waiting for me.
/Anders
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#208358 - 07/19/02 01:39 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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grachus
Planeteer/Artist # 92
Planeteer
Registered: 01/10/00
Posts: 11908
Loc: burlington ont, canada
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this is a crazy topic because writing can make you crazy. im redoing my tunes now onto the 840 from my fostex days and i start to add and subtract or just rewrite entire tunes different instruments etc. its incredible when it works and not when it dont. i often listen to a tune and say what is that for?? i have at times just read the lyrics as a poem to see if it makes sense try doing that to satisfaction oryour fav tune. also the groove of the tune can make you forget what the tune is about its quite a dance this music game.
_________________________
Now is the time
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#208359 - 07/19/02 01:54 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Smokepole
Planeteer
Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 276
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My last tune I wrote in a completely different way than I have ever written a song before. I wrote the song by singing and recording the verse and chorus without ever touching my guitar. It really took away a lot of boundaries. I had to match the key and all the chord changes to the tape. The way the chords ended up moving to compliment the melody was something I would have never come up with if I was feeling around for chords. I don't recommend to write this way all the time but it only has to work once in a while to make it worth while or to help you out of a slump.
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#208360 - 07/19/02 10:04 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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billyleemcdow
Planeteer
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbia, Missouri
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I agree in the concept taht there are no rules to songwriting....but, there are definately some guidelines you can use that will make your songs even better...but, whatever works works...consistant rhymes and structure are pretty important, at least to me. As far as lyrics or melody, I don't believe either is better than the other. It all depends on the person doing the writing. I've put words to music, and put music to words.
Me being the somewhat limited guitar player that I am, I tend to alwasy go back to the same chords, and progressions that I ALWAYS use, because they are familiar and comfortable. The idea of singing the lyrics, then putting the music to it, is an excellent idea. Makes you go new places. I have done this once, I think, and it worked well for me. I should do it more!
Nope, ain't no rules, 'cause you're dealin' with millions of people who all like what they like, regardless if you follow a formula or not....just do what you do, and if someone gives you some advice, take what you can use, and leave the rest!
Nashville Songwriters Assosciation International.
I've been a member of NSAI for about 5 years, and I love it. I volunteer as a regional coordinator here in Columbia, where we have workshops for members, and potential members. They have events down in nashville, help to explain the music business, especially the publishing side, and send us helpful "lessons", or excercises, or whatever...little tricks you CAN use to maybe make your songs a little better, if you're so inclined. But, mostly we just sit around and bullsh!t for most of the sessions, for it's the only place where a bunch of weird ass dysfuctional songwriters get together on a regular basis around here, to share thoughts ideas, and new songs...good gawd...just realized how long I've been writing...aw, well...
austa
Billy
_________________________
BILLY LEE McDOW
ASCAP
SINGER/SONGWRITER/DRUMMER....YEAH, I SAID DRUMMER!
drummers do it louder!!!
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#208361 - 07/19/02 11:56 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Wow some really cool ideas here, I especially liked Smokepoles idea about doing the vocals first, sounds challenging. wonder why I have never thought of this, since my main instrument is my voice? Must be pretty rough though, keeping everything in time and then matching the instruments to the voice, I usually use the instruments to "keep me in tune singing", I have noticed that when I record other things rather than drums, I have a rough time adding the drums later, I have done it, and it has worked, but I have found if I can get them drums down first, everything else seems to lay down so much easier. Thanks for all the cool feedback here folks.
Jack
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#208362 - 07/19/02 02:17 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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billyleemcdow
Planeteer
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbia, Missouri
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I would think the most important part would be to just get the melody of the song down, with maybe just a scratch vocal....and deciphering the chords afterwards on paper, maybe...which was how I did it...ther song was terrible...lyrically, anyways, but the music was definately my most elaborate piece...
Billy
_________________________
BILLY LEE McDOW
ASCAP
SINGER/SONGWRITER/DRUMMER....YEAH, I SAID DRUMMER!
drummers do it louder!!!
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#208363 - 07/19/02 10:47 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Smokepole
Planeteer
Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 276
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You don't have to come up with a very polished track when writing this way. Staying in tune and in time is not so critical at this point. Once you capture the main idea and melody, that part of the process is done. Once you start adding chords and stuff you will automatically correct things to compliment your original idea.
In short, you use the vocal first process as a rough ghost track and never try to actually add drums and stuff to it. It just gives you the main idea and then you figure out chords and use your regular recording sequence.
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#208364 - 07/20/02 12:48 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Thats a great idea Smoke. I have found in the past, many times, I will start out with a good basic concept for a song, say drums, vocals, bass, and two guitars. Then I will start adding stuff, third guitar.....key part.... horn solo....by the time I'm done, I'm like....hmm what happened to my song???.... ha ha.... But I see what you are saying, its a great way to get a rough idea, then polish it and re record it later
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#208365 - 07/20/02 03:06 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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E
Planeteer
Registered: 08/13/99
Posts: 64
Loc: Montgomery, Al , U.S.A.
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I agree with the point that there are no set rules for how a song must be written. Unlike alot of you guys, the only instrument that I can play well is my voice, and because my music is all acappella, I don't use an instrument to write at all. For a long time, when I wrote a song I would just write out my lyrics with a melody in my head. I wish I had a dollar for all the good melodies that I have forgotten! Anyway, I started carrying around a little microcassette recorder, so when I get an idea, I just hum the melody into it. Then when I start laying down tracks, I'll use a sequencer for a basic arrangement and to keep my pitch and tempo, and then keep adding tracks until I'm satisfied. Isn't it great that we have all this technology at our fingertips to be able to express ourselves?!?!
I'm not sure if this answers the original question at all, but I thought I'd share.
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#208366 - 07/20/02 01:42 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Eric,
I have thought of that "carrying around a little recorder" like you do for years!! I really need to get me one, sometimes, just before going to sleep, I will think of all these cool melodies in my head, and lyrics, but then will fall asleep and they are lost forever, that is such a good idea, I dont know why I havent done it yet.
I once read somewhere, that Deep Purple used to always have a chepo little tape recorder running when they were jamming, and that if it wouldnt of been for that, "Smoke on the Water" would of been forgotten the next day. I believe it was Richie Blackmore that said it in that interview, not certain though. But anyway, thanks for reminding me : NOTE TO SELF: Buy little tape recorder to record ideas...."...ha ha... knowing me, I'll still forget.
Jack
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#208367 - 07/20/02 02:37 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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TONYK
Planeteer
Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 1019
Loc: Erie, PA USA
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I'll talk a bit about my process. Keep in mind that although I think my tunes are good I'm not having much luck with publishers at this point. So take this advice with a grain of salt.
I always write lyrics last. Usually (hopefully)I get a basic idea during the writing process then I expand on the theme just before I record vocals.
Nintey percent of the time I get my basic song ideas by plunking away on the acoustic. I set up my condenser and record into my old Fostex 4-track. Whenever something cool happens I record it so I can remember it. I have lots of tapes with snippetts of songs that I refer back to when I'm stuck for ideas.
When I get something, a verse or chorus for example that I really like I go with it, still using the Fostex and develop the song. At this point I'll fill up half a tape with different ideas, plunking away sometimes for days at a time.
Often I may rewrite verses, choruses or bridges several times. The key is to listen carefully, take your time and don't get complacent. I don't record anything to the VS that I'm not 100% happy with.
Structure varies widely. You have the basic intro-v-c-v-c-b-solo-c-end thing that publishers like you to follow but there is a ton of room for creativity within that structure. I've been at this a long time and the song usually guides me where it wants to go. Once you have your basic idea, the key is to add things that will keep the listener interested. It doesn't take much, Be really careful with chord structure and the like and try and avoid cliche stuff. It's pretty easy to do a D-C-G thing but if it's too repeptive in my opinion it's boring. Throw in an Am or F#m.
Once I have an arrangement, the recording process for me is an entirely different creative thing. I constantly try to add subtle things that the listener may not hear the first time through. Maybe not until they listen on headphones. A minor change in effect here or there, guitars that come or go etc.
Occasionally I get the unexpected gift from my muse where I get a great idea while shaving or something. These cannot be ignored or forgotten and I have to make a mad dash for the studio to sing a snippet into the Fostex so I can recall it later.
All for now,
TonyK
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#208368 - 07/21/02 11:06 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Smokepole
Planeteer
Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 276
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There is a good tip of the day for songwriters at harmony-central. You can have it e-mailed to you daily if you like or just check it out. It's real brief yet it covers a lot of internal mechanics that we don't think about sometimes. I started a disk of ones that caught my attention. I guarantee that if you follow them for a couple of weeks you'll find stuff you like or never gave much thought to.
My theory is if I get one useful idea a month out of it, it's worth the 60 seconds that it took me to read. You may want to check it out.
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#208369 - 07/22/02 12:34 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Well Tony looks like ours are exactly oppisite, I almost always write the lyrics first, allthough I do know that most writers don't, just that words are my baby. I wrote lyrics for 5 songs yesterday, and as soon as I get my MIDI cables, I'm gonna give that "controlling my Boss DR5 drum machine with my keyboard thing" a stab.
Allthough I usually write the lyrics first, sometime when recording I have to "re-write" them in order to make them work with my music structure.
I do agree with the not getting stuck in the 3 Major chords thing though, like I said earlier, I like to have verses, a bridge, and a chorus or two, which reminds me, its cool to say make chorus 2 slightly different than chorus 1.
In any case, it's all good. To me, recording is like therepy, kind of like a painter, start with a blank canvas and turn it into something cool.
Jack
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#208370 - 07/22/02 02:01 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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TONYK
Planeteer
Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 1019
Loc: Erie, PA USA
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Jack:
I could see where you'd have to do some re-writing as the music takes shape.
For me, lyrics are the toughest part of songwriting. My life is pretty settled so I don't get a lot of cutting edge ideas for songs. Plus I don't like to preach at people. So my approach is kind of a stream of consciousness thing. Most of the time an idea comes to me as I'm writing the music, coming up with an arrangement and laying down basic tracks. Usually I don't put pencil to paper until I'm ready to track vocals.
As for the recording part, after I get an arrangement and a drum track down, everything else kind of evolves during tracking. I start out with a basic idea of instrumentation etc. but I don't have a good idea about what I'm going to play until I actually pick up the guitar, bass or whatever.
Tony
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#208371 - 07/24/02 05:04 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Twanger
Space Cadet
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 14
Loc: Nashville
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yeah, i live in nashvegas and write songs. a lot of the times it starts with nothing but a hook line here. Obviously if you listen to country, a lot of songs didn't have much more to offer, but the hook line. The songs of mine I like best tell a story. I also carry the recorder, but then forget to use it at crucial moments.
_________________________
Twang
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#208372 - 07/26/02 01:03 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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I guess I have to admit, the lyric writing is what comes easiest to me. Over the last weekend I wrote lyrics to 5 songs, and today wrote lyrics for two more. I have some melodies floating around in my head as I write the lyrics, if I can only remember them once I start my recording, I will be ok... ha ha
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#208373 - 07/26/02 01:59 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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John Norland
Planeteer
Registered: 02/14/02
Posts: 220
Loc: Edgerton, WI USA
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I'm sure you all know this, but Chuck Berry's biggest seller by about threefold was...
That's right "My Ding-a-ling"
So adolescent penis references are my suggestion.
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#208374 - 07/26/02 01:46 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Smokepole
Planeteer
Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 276
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I'm with you on "My Dingaling".
No, I don't really care for the song or try to write like that, but I respect how many people he reached with it.
I've switched to writing some country along with my other styles. Now I'm really ready to understand that if I write a tune about a guy who gets up every morning and goes out and works his ass off, I've connected with most of the population.
I've also simplified my sound. The last guys I recorded with I told them I wanted it to sound as corny and as middle of the road as possible. Basic "SOLID" music to pump the message out. Good strong quality with no frills.
I know I've read some posts suggesting no cliches but my theory is if the listener can identify with certain parts of the song you've got 'em. Like for instance, if there is an accent sequence that someone can easily duplicate while tapping on a bar or the steering wheel or whatever, they tend to lock in and look for that part. It connects them with it. It's simple enough that they can become part of the music and actually feel it the same way the band did on the recording. Non musicians love that.
I' ve got some wild views I know. But I don't care at all what anyone thinks.(that's not intended towards you guys, more toward the world in general). I'm really only doing it for fun and to please myself so if no one likes any of the tunes I'm O.K with that. On the other hand if I can sell one or something that'll work too.
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#208375 - 07/26/02 02:02 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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TONYK
Planeteer
Registered: 07/31/00
Posts: 1019
Loc: Erie, PA USA
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Smokepole:
I was the one who made the reference to cliches. I too have adopted a very simplified approach to recording, arranging and I suppose writing. I hear what you're saying. My point is songs can be made more interesting by looking for subtle chord changes that you don't normally expect. Of course it has to fit within the context/feel of the tune. I too write primarily for myself.
Since we're talking about writing, I'm currently recording perhaps the coolest tune I've ever written. I'm really excited about it. Probably take me the better part of the next month to finish it. So far I have a drum track, 3 acoustics, one electric, and guitar solo recorded. I've also got the lead vocals for the verses, bridge and choruses done. All that's left is some vocal doubling, submixing and of course I save bass guitar for last. Then it's a mix or two and maybe I'll have it ready for Comp V.
TK
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#208376 - 07/26/02 03:13 PM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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I totally agree that the simple tunes are the ones most remembered. I mean, to us musicians, we love all the way cool 50 zillion chord change things, but as history teachs us, the simple ones stand the test of time. When I'm out playing live at gigs, and we cover tunes like "Louie Louie", 3 simple chords, (Lord I hate that tune), People go crazy and dance. One time we worked up a really hard one, Deep Purples "Highway Star" had it down great, got very little responce. I think the "non-musician" can relate to the simple songs so much more, and I truely do believe a "Hook" is absoutely necessary.
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#208377 - 07/27/02 12:43 AM
Re: Songwriting Technique's
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Smokepole
Planeteer
Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 276
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I think we're all on the same page. Good points
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