#219170 - 12/09/04 10:41 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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spillgutMJ
Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Madison Wi,53716
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I reposted a little better mix of "Another Day" in the Tamisong folder, stereo this time LOL. For some unknown reason I had a 2 min silence at the end of my original take, Im sorry about that.
The new take is less muddy sounding now.
Now that Ive been listening to this more and I certainly dont mean this as an insult, I hear Shania Twain but with more "balls" for lack of a better term. Although Im a "heavy" player by nature, I really like some of todays poppier female vocalists ie: Shania, Christina Aguilera, Alicia Keys & the like. I must draw the line at Brittany Spears however. LOL
Take care!!
Mark
_________________________
 "So many times you practice in your mirror- to be just like me- but you just can’t see... YOU AINT' GOT THE BALLS, son..." -
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#219172 - 12/09/04 10:08 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Just put up a contribution.
http://helserj.temp.powweb.com/vs840/songs/TamiSong/tami_john444.mp3
Another Day
The hardest part, was lining up the drums. I just used a rhythm from my Yamaha DD-55 - but turns out it's version of 120bpm, is about 3fps per minute slower than Jack's 120bpm on whatever beat box he's using. Thought I had it lined up in Audition by using time stretch - at 99.83361% - then thought I'd copy and past another couple bars of the drums at the end, and the darn thing recalculated the 'stretch' and screwed up everything ... anyhow, got it restored, but not with out some cussing. 
Anyhow - for Bert who is also using audition - how I lined it up, is, got the first beat lined up using Jack's MP3 left track as the 'sync' for beat 1. Then magnified the crap out of the screen, and scrolled right to about the 1 minute mark. At that point, the drums I recorded were off (late) by 3fps. In a 30fps environment, with 60 seconds per minute, there's 1800 frames per minute. The drum part I recorded had the beat at 1803 frames at the minute mark ... so I divided 1800/1803 and came up with 99.83361%, which when punched into the 'time stretch' property for the drum track, lined it up close enough for a 'hack job' like this.
Everything is one take, no mistakes fixed. If you add enough reverb, eq, add enough echo, and compress the mix, it's all 'enharmonic' ... had fun.
Thanks big Jack!
Affectionately yours, 
'Mr. Math'
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#219173 - 12/09/04 10:11 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Glad you like my take on it, Guy.
This online colab is cool. But, I find it awkward working a rhythm around an already recorded melody. Im guessing it's because of my inexperience. It's just a shame all of us don't live in the same town. I bet we would all come up with some really cool music together... oh well
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#219174 - 12/09/04 10:16 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Oh man, Jack. That is a very sweet arrangement. I love the muted guitar sequence you have in the background.
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#219176 - 12/10/04 12:47 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Well I'm buggered now - if 444 has done a version it's probably the ultimate, unless Cornjerker gets in there with his jug band.
...
I put up a new mix - with a little better eq on Tami's voice, and on the instruments. Different fade, and brought out that muted guitar part more ... might be too much tho'.
Guy, I can put up the bass, and the drum part, but you'll have to sync it up ... when you burn separate tracks like that in Audition, it doesn't start from 00:00, but from it's 'offset' from 00:00 position (?). The drums had to be slid out to 00:02 or somthing to make them work, with everything else.
If you need them, I'll write them to separate files and upload.
Lemme know. Here's the new mix LINK .
http://helserj.temp.powweb.com/vs840/songs/TamiSong/tami_john444_newmix.mp3
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#219177 - 12/10/04 12:48 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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spillgutMJ
Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Madison Wi,53716
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I have the Boss dr5. No matter how I tried I couldnt make the "straight" drum track work, to me it seemed to fight with the "swinging" or "shuffle" vocal & guitar/bass. I wouldnt mind if someone put a bass track on mine as I didnt want to tackle that with the preprogrammed bass sounds in the dr5.
_________________________
"So many times you practice in your mirror- to be just like me- but you just can’t see... YOU AINT' GOT THE BALLS, son..." -
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#219178 - 12/10/04 03:01 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to let everyone know, that Tami downloaded some of the songs, and is VERY excited about what you guys have done!! She says to tell you she's a much better singer than that, but shes being modest, i think shes great on it!!
Sorry I havent been able to download all of them yet, it's been VERY hectic around here, i think I'm getting sick again, I'm not running the fever yet, but the symptoms like I had before, are coming back, I wonder if it could be something in this studio? The older part of the house's basement leaks, but it runs right to a floor drain and goes away, and it only leaks when we get those torential downpours like a couple days ago..lol
Another reason i cant get online, my daughter bought herself a new laptop for doing her college work on, and shes been "hogging" the net... ha ha
Hopefully I'll get more "net time" soon and start feeling better, and get more stuff posted.
Oh by the way Den, my Drummer really digs your style, (He's a Metalhead...ha ha), and I was playing your version with the rhythm in one side, and tami singing on the other, and he jumped on my old Ludwigs, and made up a WAY cool real drum part for it!! So maybe I'll do something like that, have Mike add some real drums to the thing.
I really want to hear Jack, and Marks newest Version, and I believe Bert posted one as well?? But this dang dialup takes forever to download, and as stated, my net time is very limited these days.
Thanks again fellows, i'm trying to get Tami to become a member here, i mean after all, her recordings were both done on a 840... ha ha..
Also I'll try to answer all the replies tomorrow. Heck we have a gig tomorrow night, hope I don't end up back in the hospital, I thought I had this doggone thing licked!!!
Jack
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#219179 - 12/10/04 04:11 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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Wow I didnt get kicked off the net, and i got Jacks versions both downloaded, and Marks new mix downloaded as well.
As for Marks, I like um both, but I think this one is clearer and of coarse i'm a "stereo" freak, always love stereo effects, so awesome job Mark.
Jack, cute thing there with the "tagging"..LOL, good thing i changed it or there could be HELL to pay!!..LOL.. My wife AND her sister on my ass!! ha ha... anyway, i like both versions, I think i like the first one the best, allthough i love effects on the vocals, on this i think it's just a tad heavy on the vocal, the reverb that is. The BASS is awesome!!! I also love the cool ending. Also, are you using the Yamaha D-55? If so, awesome job!! man those things are awesome!! So i like both versions John444ster, but i think i prefer the 1st mix, but as i once told someone, a song can be mixed a zillion different ways, and who's to say which is best? While typing this, I listened to version 2 again and maybe I like it better, damn hard to tell, just wish the reverb on the vocals was down a small tad. Really loved the entire rest of it though!!
Bert mentioned something about the timing changing here and there, see Tami picked out that Drum part on my Boss DR5, and I was hitting the fill to varation here and there, and sometimes when I do it on the boss, it skips a beat, it must of did that.
Oh ya, on the origional recording, that wasn't me playing acoustic Guitar, it was Tami, see she plays, but she hadnt played in Years, and she had real long fingernails, and cut them all off to play my acoustic on her tune, she said it really made her fingers sore, but I was amazed at how well she played, since she hasnt played in almost 10 to 15 years or so. I hate to admit it, but I was playing Bass on the origional, she had wanted it before they had to go back to GA and i just whipped a "Ultra Fast" Bassline to it, maybe I'll get to play with it more when things settle down just a tad here.
Hope all are well,
Jack
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#219180 - 12/10/04 04:28 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Guy,
The files bass4guy.mp3 and drums4guy.mp3 are online for you. And I didn't have to worry about the offset - should line up at 00:00 for you in your song editor, I hope.
Jack, will mess with the reverb on the vocal - bring it down a bounce or 2.
Jack
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#219181 - 12/10/04 04:55 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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#219182 - 12/10/04 06:03 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Guy,
Im anxious to hear your take on it. I'm sure I'll be as blown away by it as I was by "Jimmy", which I am listening to for the 100+ time right now. On that tune in particular, your vocals sound more like Roger Waters than Paul Rogers to me. Ive always been a huge fan of Floyd's tunes. The ballads always have that traditional english folk song mood about them.
Jack,
That's cool that your drummer digs it. Believe it or not, in the '80s I co-wrote many of my tunes w/ a drummer. On days we didnt have band practice, I'd go to the drummers house and plug in and pop a 90 minute tape in the cassette deck and start recording some improv we would come up with.
I do have a version up w/ drums and bass. I hope you like it.
You definitely need to pace yourself for a while, bro. Also, you really need to get a dehumidifier for your basement. Bacteria thrive in a moist environment.
Den
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#219183 - 12/10/04 08:26 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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I uploaded a version with me improving a solo at the end. I intended on mixing it more in the backwith heavy reverb, but because the sync being off and all, it ended up jumbling everything up. So I just normalized it and left it as is.
TameraHernandez-AnotherDay-drhek2004.mp3
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#219185 - 12/10/04 03:25 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Use this LINK for 'Olde Bill Buxton's Boogie'
http://helserj.temp.powweb.com/vs840/songs/TamiSong/Tami_OleBillBuxtonsBoogie.mp3
....
HOW STRANGE ... for future reference folks, apparently my FTP site / and the URL links used by the UBB software here, don't like apostrophes. May as well not use spaces either in file names or directory names. If you wanna space a word out, use a hyphen - or underscore _ between words. Maybe it'll work better. Jack
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#219186 - 12/10/04 06:44 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Damn! My next songs was going to be called '.
Can I call it " instead?
Hang on, hasn't Zappa done one called '?
Guy said...
" I can't keep up with all these new versions of everyone's tunes. I'll have to get broadband. ".
I've completely lost the plot on all these things. I need an index!
Isn't Sheffield DSL fitted yet?
Out here in LLansansiliogogowhileyoucangoch country, we have to wait till July '05 apparently. I will definately be getting it.
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#219188 - 12/10/04 10:50 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Guy, That is a cool take on it. I really dig it
After listening to yours and Jack's (john444) take on it, I shouldve done like you guys and waited until I had the drum track down before starting the guitar. Im guessing Mark did the same thing I did and used the previous rhythm track as a click for the guitar. I shouldve listened to it closer the first time. I probably wouldve noticed the skipped beat in there.
Jack, I was waiting for you to comment on the gobbled space When I get home tonight, Ill download my folder and delete a couple of the takes out of it.
Den
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#219189 - 12/10/04 11:09 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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#219191 - 12/10/04 11:27 PM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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No problemo, Jack.
I have all the final takes downloaded. I just wanted to get all the work-in-progress ones. Perhaps, down the line when I get ample free time, it'll give me something to play around with.
That reference page is a great idea. I'll work on mine tonight.
Den
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#219193 - 12/11/04 12:21 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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Bassmusician
Planeteer/Artist # 184
Planeteer
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: St Louis area
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I just wanted to appoligize, I was unable to download the newer ones today. I had to take my wifes car to the shop, and it still isnt fixed, has less than 100 miles left on the warrenty, and one of the things it does, is intermedient, so naturally, it wouldnt do it for them...lol
I gots to run, got that gig tonight, I didn't go to the studio at all today, and I'm feeling some better, I'm really thinking there is mold down there!
Tami called today, she loves what you guys did, she keeps telling me to tell you guys she can sing with more "Balls"... lol, myself, I think she did just fine.
I gotta hear Guys version, I'll be downloading the others tomorrow, if I live through tonight..lol...by the way, RIP Dimebag Darrell, there was a couple Pantera tunes I dug, never a big fan, but was terrible what happened with that guy shooting him and some others at that concert.
Jack
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#219194 - 12/11/04 01:50 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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spillgutMJ
Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Madison Wi,53716
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Actually Den, I composed my drums right off the bat & played to those. It was hard to get. I basically copied as close as I could get to Jacks original drum track then applied the "swing" function in my boss dr5. To sync my drums to the vocal, I just waited till the most precise moment I could & manually hit play on the drum machine. It took a few false starts but I think I landed as close two "1" as I could. You could almost do the same thing with your drums, keep everthing the same but put a little more "swing" into it. I do dig what youve done with it tho, dont get me wrong. I still wanna do a "heavier" thing with it but I think It would end up sounding exactly like yours!! LOL 
_________________________
"So many times you practice in your mirror- to be just like me- but you just can’t see... YOU AINT' GOT THE BALLS, son..." -
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#219195 - 12/11/04 02:15 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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spillgutMJ
Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Madison Wi,53716
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WOW Guy, that take of yours is cool. Wouldve never occurred to me to approach it that way, good job!!
444, Very cool, very smooth. I wish I could be as well rounded as you guys. Playing & production is always top notch.
I can play a little I guess but my mixes always pale compared to most everyone elses!! LOL Ill keep learning hopefully!!
_________________________
"So many times you practice in your mirror- to be just like me- but you just can’t see... YOU AINT' GOT THE BALLS, son..." -
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#219196 - 12/11/04 02:51 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Understatement of the YEAR!
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#219197 - 12/11/04 04:20 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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spillgutMJ
Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Madison Wi,53716
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Maybe 444... I dunno.
_________________________
"So many times you practice in your mirror- to be just like me- but you just can’t see... YOU AINT' GOT THE BALLS, son..." -
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#219198 - 12/11/04 05:55 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Guy,
Your take synced up nicely throughout. I especially like the reverb you used. I can visualize the performance being done in an old depression era club here in the states. Quite surpising considering you're from the UK
Jack,
Thank your sister-in-law for us. I thought she did a great job on it. Especially since it was her 1st time. One of these days Ill send you one of my 1st 4 track recordings. The singer I had performing on it was a good singer live, but he was a total mess on the recording He kept jumping in and out of falcetto; As well as, out of time. As you know, recording and playing live are totally different.
Mark, Thanks for the shuffle tip. There's a feature on Fruity loops for that very purpose. The skipped beat I was refering to was the one at around 2:30 where JackP hit the fill button. When I recorded my rhythm guitar track, I had the vocal volume down and didnt realize that I fell out of sync w/it until after I had recorded it. Stupid me. Im glad you liked my take. I had fun recording it. It's funny how a simple heavy rhythm can come off sounding pretty good
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#219199 - 12/11/04 08:05 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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bert
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/00
Posts: 1349
Loc: Parsippany, NJ
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Man did I miss alot. Been very busy hear. The holidays are just about here and the house is a total disaster. I think Mrs. bert is getting sick from it. 
I tried to do a little take on my idea the other night using Adobe audition, but my computer wouldn't cooperate. I kept freezing everytime I record a track and then I couldn't save anything. Frustrating night til 2:00 am.
I got the 840 unpacked and did some tracks on Jacks, to give an idea of the melody line. And being he did such a fantastic job on his take, it could only make me lood better . After the holidays I'll give a go full swing. But for now here's the link
Jacks version of Tami\'s song with bert add in
Man mark, I love what you came up with. Very cool.
And Den, You fix it up real nice.
Guy, the piano sound is the same idea I was thinking on guitar. I was gonna build the song around 7ths. But like I said above PC kept freezing. I like the sound. Nice piano work!!!
Jack, that's one sweet take of Tami's song. I hope you don't mind me using yours to for some idea :p :rolleyes: I seem to be butchering your songs lately. I'll have to stop that. 
Gotta get some sleep
bert
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/bert-painter/tracksSongs written by my good friend Dave who past on. vocals - Dave guitar - Dave and Bert Bass - Bert Produced and Recorded - Bert Drums - Programmed so far
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#219201 - 12/11/04 08:14 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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bert
Planeteer
Registered: 03/09/00
Posts: 1349
Loc: Parsippany, NJ
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Oh forgot to mention. Lead at end is very sloppy or course. I need time to work on it. It was one a quicky. No excuse. I not good at coming up on the fly:)
bert
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/bert-painter/tracksSongs written by my good friend Dave who past on. vocals - Dave guitar - Dave and Bert Bass - Bert Produced and Recorded - Bert Drums - Programmed so far
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#219202 - 12/11/04 09:43 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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bert, thanks for the compliment. I like the melodic riffing you did on Jack's tune. Improvising is hit or miss for me. That's why I dont do it much myself. It seems to come pretty natural for you though.
Guy, thanks for the info. That's some excellent advice. It'll definitely cut down on recording time since you dont have to re-record a part to get the effect.
Before I forget, I made an htm file index in the TamiSong folder. Feel free to add a description and a link to your tune if you like.
http://helserj.temp.powweb.com/vs840/songs/TamiSong/TamiSong_Index.htm
Den
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#219203 - 12/12/04 12:42 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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jim y
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 2579
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Managed to get a bunch downloaded of the Tami songs, not all, but a good start (it takes media player so long to buffer with my connection, I might as well download first).
All I gotta say now is what a great voice she has. Definately country/pop but it's got enough personality to stand out as her own voice.
Jacks done a very good job of recording her (I've only really listened to the original version so far), no obvious compression, no popping and no sibilance. Very good considering it's the first time he's recorded her and they didn't have much time.
That glitching with the drum machine fills... Without listening closely, it may be what I call "the curse of the fours".
Consider a 4, 8, 12 or 16 bar pattern. What if the melody hits on beat 4 of the last bar instead of a bars 1st beat? A lot of songs/styles do this. But if the fill waits for beat one, it's one beat late! It should start on beat 4 of the previous bar, because that's where the feel of everything else falls.
This is tricky to fix with patterns as in a drum machine, and an auto-fill almost certainly has no option to start other than after a bar or pattern end. My SR16 is just the same. A computer sequencer, midi or audio loops, makes things easier, you often only have to drag the parts over a beat.
The only cure - drum machine or sequencer, is to write a special intro pattern that is mute until the 2nd beat (assuming 4/4). All other patterns have to be written offset so beat one is the "hit" of the melody or riff but beat 2 is the start of the bar. Fills and breaks and all patterns have to have their last beat programmed as the first beat of the next bar.
Visually, here's a normal "on the beat" 4/4 pattern, K being a kick drum beat, S is snare, letters ABCD fill beats (say, a toms roll) and the "/" being bar marks.
/KKSK/KKSK/ABCD/KKSK/ etc
Now for patterns for a song using downbeats. "-" represents a mute beat. We have to start with a special intro pattern of /-KKS/
/-KKS/KKKS/KKKS/ABCD/ABCD/KKKS/ etc
To end the song, you might want to write an end pattern to finish on beat 4 /KKKS/K---/
A is the first beat of the fill and when heard, falls where beat 4 of the main rhythm is. When the melody or riff comes back in, it starts on beat 4 as it should.
Having a 4123 pattern seems crazy, but as it repeats (loops) is still plays in order and sounds right. The point is, if your sequencer/drum machine won't let you join patterns on anything other than bar boundaries, it's the only way to make it work.
The same principle applies whatever the time signature or pattern length is. If it's 8/8 or more, then the offset could be 2 beats.
Sorry if this seems a head scratcher. I always have to resort to scribbling on bits of paper when I hit this problem. I've been stumped by this many times, and it can be hard work to fix when you're well into the recording!
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#219204 - 12/12/04 01:29 AM
Re: a Challenge for my friends, and anyone who may want to give it a Whirl
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John444
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 4000
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Originally posted by jim y:
I always have to resort to scribbling on bits of paper when I hit this problem ...
I use a calculator a lot ... for cuts and pastes, working out timing, etc. Just today I'm laying down scratch metronome tracks (drum/bass/keys) for a song Karen sings in our concerts. It's the title song of my first CD, and she's taken it over (women!) . The live version has a different feel to it - winds up being about 40 seconds longer than the studio version.
Anyhow, loaded up Jammer Pro which had the old midi tracks in it, counted total measures (105), multiplied by 4 (4/4 time sig) to get beats (420) in the song. Took the number of seconds in the song live (305), and divided by beats in the song (420). Then divided 60 seconds by the result of that, to come up with a shade over 82 bpm, our concert tempo.
The math sure helps the music sometimes!
Jack
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