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#482704 - 03/17/04 10:35 AM Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Alterboy Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 437
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Perhaps some of the planet computer whizzes can comment on this because I'm making some assumptions here…

There is no doubt that a fresh format is like a clean slate and gives one the feeling of starting fresh, with little worries about hard drive glitches for the next little while.

I know that many 2480 users are proponents of the monthly format and I see no reason why not. However, this monthly format can really throw one's recording/mixing schedule into turmoil depending on work load and deadlines because of the downtime involved in reloading from CD. I don't employ third party storage that would lessen the number of disk operations involved in backup and recovery. Instead, I have put clear partition to good use and find that I format far less frequently i.e. about every 8 or 9 months. I am still using the original 30g drive that was installed at the factory in 2001.

I will fill up a partition with an album project and freely work on all the songs for a couple of weeks, thoroughly fragmenting the partition. After each session, I save my work to RW, so that I have a back up. Then, one night, just before bed, when my fears about fragmentation have peaked, I will copy all the projects from the well-used partition to a fresh partition using the erase all projects mode. When I awake, all my projects are all waiting for me on a clean, organized partition. I can now clear the old partition and reuse it for other projects with no apparent fragmentation.

Does this ring true? I am assuming that all the data is now copied over to the fresh partition and written in a neat and orderly fashion i.e. without fragmentation.

Another method I use is to load, from RW, each project individually onto the fresh partition when I am ready to resume work…however, this takes a little longer and involves more disk operations.

Then, when I have things wrapped up and few projects on the go, I'll do the full format and surface scan. In three years, I've done this four times. The only problems I've experienced with fragmentation occurred before I developed this procedure.

Am I whistling in the dark? Please comment.

Greg

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#482705 - 03/17/04 11:26 AM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
Planeteer


Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 7807
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
Although formatting and clearing the partition are different operations, they have some similarities.

They both make the main directory (FAT) appear to be gone, and they can both be recovered if necessary.

In a 'clear partition' scenario, the files still reside where they used to be, but the pointers to them are gone. There's still fragmentation, but the OS doesn't care because it basically has no pointers showing where file fragments and empty space fragments reside.

The format process takes it down to a lower level 'erasure', but, the data is still there in raw form, also without pointers to get to them via the standard utilities included with the Windows XXXX OS.

Disk Edit can get you down to that level, but, unless you think, breathe, and react in binary. . .forget it.

I used to recommend PC defragging, but have reversed that decision due to issues that may arise during the defrag process that can render the drive useless. (IE:lost clusters, lost chains, bad clusters) If you hit one of these and you haven't run MS ScanDisk or XP's ChkDsk first to fix it, you're in trouble.

. . Falcon
_________________________
. . . but, what do I know?

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#482706 - 03/17/04 12:07 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Bop Offline
Planeteer/Artist # 128


Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 508
Loc: Calgary
Falcon, I think what you mentioned about defragging without CHKDSK probably led to my latest PC crisis.
Do you think it's reasonable that the Roland O/S should include something akin to ChkDsk at some time in the future? This seems more important to me since the arrival of the CD version where the hard drive is more difficult to remove.

Greg's system seems very elegant, as are all of his posts, and I think I might adopt it too. If I'm reading your post correctly, from a users perspective there's no practical difference between "Clear Partition" and "Format"?

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#482707 - 03/17/04 12:35 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
SteveM Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 1440
Loc: A couple of minutes from the b...
I think your apporach is a good one, Greg, but unfortunately I cannot say for sure. I believe what happens is what you're saying and has been said above, but adding a little. Yes the files are still there, but the OS no longer recognizes them as the pointers are gone once the partition is erased. This allows the OS to place new files on contiguous sectors when it writes them, after erasure.

Someone speculated a couple of months ago that Roland uses a version of Linux for the VS 2400/2480 OS, which I believe is very likely. I don't have the time at the moment to look into it, but someone else who knows Linux could talk about how Linux writes new files after all the files a partition have been deleted.

Having said all that, it's still speculation, only Roland knows for sure. If you talk to them and ask, please post what they said.

Thanks,
_________________________
-Steve

It is the essential nature of man to play - Plato

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#482708 - 03/17/04 01:28 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Gothbin Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 725
Loc: The Netherlands
I doubt the fact that Roland might use a form of UNIX or Linux. It is more likely to be a form of C+ or something like that.

Anyway, it should be possible in every kind of OS to include a defrag funtion in some form, being it in a OS update, or be it in software running from a CD or so.

This is one of the things I never understood from Roland anyway, that this function ain't included from day 1 on. A system like the 24** family, which is so close looking to "normal" DAW's. But it might be a big problem to include this function in the OS. Therefore it seems a good idea to make a sort of "Norton VS Utilities" for the VS famalies.........

Well guys, and girlzzz, something for a new update?

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#482709 - 03/17/04 03:39 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
SteveM Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 1440
Loc: A couple of minutes from the b...
 Quote:
I doubt the fact that Roland might use a form of UNIX or Linux. It is more likely to be a form of C+ or something like that
The unit needs an OS and I doubt they'd put the time and $ into writing one from scratch. Linux is cheap and highly customizable.

I believe they don't have more utilities in order to keep the OS as compact as possible - which is what we want, so that more CPU power is used for recording, etc, rather than housekeeping. Pushing Roland for a defrag utility is an uphill battle, IMHO.
_________________________
-Steve

It is the essential nature of man to play - Plato

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#482710 - 03/17/04 03:52 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
SteveM Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 1440
Loc: A couple of minutes from the b...
OK...I was wondering about this, so called Roland support. They said that if you copy the project to a (different) blank partition (or a non-blank partition, depending upon how fragmented it is), the files will be contiguous/not fragmented.
_________________________
-Steve

It is the essential nature of man to play - Plato

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#482711 - 03/17/04 06:10 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
mike buzz Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/28/99
Posts: 1958
Loc: paso robles ca usa
Steve that sounds like all you need to do is copy songs/projects to clear drive areas on another partion and your song is defrag'ed ???? < so you could just reinitialize a partition after the copy process and your good to go !!!!!!!!!!!!! no reformat etc. !!!!!!!!!!!?????

Any thoughts on this ???

Later
Buzz
_________________________
http://www.nanometer.com [img]http://[/img]
Lurching around causing trouble <;

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#482712 - 03/17/04 06:40 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
FalconEddy Offline
Mastering Marvel
Planeteer


Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 7807
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
 Quote:
They said that if you copy the project to a (different) blank partition (or a non-blank partition, depending upon how fragmented it is), the files will be contiguous/not fragmented.
Correct.

This also holds true when creating a backup to CD-R, or recovering a backup to a blank partition; as well as copying a project back and forth between an external device such as an ACARD, SCSI drive, or even when attached to a PC.

. . Falcon
_________________________
. . . but, what do I know?

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#482713 - 03/17/04 06:46 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Alterboy Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 437
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Buzz,

That's been my contention for the last while. Sorry I didn't mention this concept months earlier...

Greg

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#482714 - 03/17/04 07:27 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
mike buzz Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 04/28/99
Posts: 1958
Loc: paso robles ca usa
Thanks guys because I'm HORRIBLE at backing up stuff

Later
Buzz
_________________________
http://www.nanometer.com [img]http://[/img]
Lurching around causing trouble <;

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#482715 - 03/17/04 07:37 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Alterboy Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 437
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Thanks to all especially Steve and Falcon for your research and insights.

Greg

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#482716 - 03/17/04 10:13 PM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
SteveM Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 1440
Loc: A couple of minutes from the b...
I think a lot of us have been thinking this for awhile...it's just nice to get the confirmation.

I think it's still a good idea to format, it sounds like some of us at least may not need to do it nearly as often as we thought.
_________________________
-Steve

It is the essential nature of man to play - Plato

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#482717 - 03/18/04 11:15 AM Re: Clear Partition...fewer defrags?
Gothbin Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 725
Loc: The Netherlands
Well Steve in order to keep the OS as small as possible, there should be some nice things runnable from cd. I do not say it is not true that it runs UNIX or Linux, I just doubt it, as desks like a Mackie D8b runs C+ (which I know for sure....) On the other hand.....a Sony DM 100X desk runs UNIX...oooops Robin!!!

Well it seems I'm whoozy again.....

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