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#646535 - 01/29/07 11:32 AM the war's not going so well, eh?
gonzo Offline
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\:\(
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#646536 - 01/29/07 11:39 AM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Timster Offline
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Nope.
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#646537 - 01/29/07 11:42 AM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Tom Mix Offline
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You mean the democrat vs republican war, wor on drugs, war on poverty or the culture war? Isn't going well for who?
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#646538 - 01/29/07 11:49 AM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Duckhead Offline
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What War Does!! \:\(
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#646539 - 01/29/07 12:08 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
flatcat Administrator Offline
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I'm concerned that we as a nation are not going to commit ourselves to taking care of the people who have sacrificed themselves in the line of duty. While it's good that fewer servicepeople have been killed in Iraq than in previous conflicts, far, far more of them have been wounded as a percentage of troops in the field. This speaks to our ability to keep soldiers from dying - but many of them are going to be left with life-changing injuries. That's not even to mention the people who will suffer psychologically from the experience.

I just really hope that we put our money toward helping these people who we've asked so much from.
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#646540 - 01/29/07 01:41 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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Another milestone in the war on terror.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16839573/

This is significant.

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#646541 - 01/29/07 01:47 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
flatcat Administrator Offline
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Why do you think that's significant, Paul? Or a "milestone" in the "war on terror"? In terms of milestones, what does it signify?

I honestly don't understand this kind of drumbeating about how it's going so well.

It's not going well. But we can't leave either.
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#646542 - 01/29/07 02:15 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Marty Gilman Offline
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There is nothing going well in Iraq- nothing.

We are there on false pretenses and had no plan to put in place for after we got there.

I really have sympathy for our troops over there.

-MG
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#646543 - 01/29/07 02:18 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Hano Offline
Mr.
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Dear Paulb,

Please read some information .

A Week in Iraq
 Quote:
On Sunday 28 January the week ends with 144 reported deaths.
In Baghdad 54 bodies are found in the streets, and two schools are hit by mortars.
In one of the school attacks, 5 girls are killed when mortars hit their schoolyard,
while in Ramadi 2 children are killed when their school is hit.
Near Hilla another 10 people are killed, 3 of them children, car bombs kill 16 in Kirkuk,
an official from the Industry Ministry is murdered along with his daughter and two other employees,
12 die in market bombings in Baghdad, another child among them, and another 10 people die in mortar attacks in Jurf al-Sakhar.
Altogether 11 children die in attacks on Sunday. A further 10 bodies are pulled out of the Tigris.
Maybe I just don't understand the glory that you can see.

Hano
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#646544 - 01/29/07 02:22 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Wild Offline
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I really have sympathy for the children over there.

Imagine the terror of the children during the days of shock and awe, the constant noise and bombing, the fear, seeing the fear in their mother's eyes. There wil be a generation of traumatized Iraqi children, many will have PTSD for the rest of their lives. Many will (and have already from Gulf War I) get childhood cancers and leukemias from the U-238 ammo and weaponry. Many are orphans. Many have no schools to go to, the schools having been bombed into oblivion, or it being too dangerous to go out.

This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya.

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#646545 - 01/29/07 02:29 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/Iraq/wm1210.cfm
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#646546 - 01/29/07 02:34 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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I have a question. Historically, what other nation bothered to stabilize & rebuild the nation of it's enemy once it was defeated? The US does it all the time. That's pretty much what we're doing in Iraq right now .

My mom told me after WWII, US planes dropped food, candy, toys, clothes... from airplanes in Hungary. At first, they were afraid to go out there to retrieve the stuff with the fear that they were booby trapped. But, come to find out they were just acts of goodwill from the best nation in the world.

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#646547 - 01/29/07 02:46 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Wild Offline
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I take it that you have not travelled outside the US, drheck, or read much history. Or have you been to Vietnam and seen what a mess we left that little country, things are really kind of ugly there now, the victors are very hard on the South Vietnamese.
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#646548 - 01/29/07 02:48 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
slotz Offline
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"I really have sympathy for the children over there.

Imagine the terror of the children during the days of shock and awe, the constant noise and bombing, the fear, seeing the fear in their mother's eyes. There wil be a generation of traumatized Iraqi children, many will have PTSD for the rest of their lives. Many will (and have already from Gulf War I) get childhood cancers and leukemias from the U-238 ammo and weaponry. Many are orphans. Many have no schools to go to, the schools having been bombed into oblivion, or it being too dangerous to go out.

This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya."

Where were you when Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of them? You didn't give a rat's ass about them then. This whole thread is about blame America, hating America, and hating Dubya.
Another pathetic thread.

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#646549 - 01/29/07 02:49 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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 Quote:
This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya.
Well said, Wild. And the really sad, terrifying, stupid, useless thing is that historically, people in this area of the world are not concerned in the least with justice– vengence is the only language they know.

 Quote:
That's pretty much what we're doing in Iraq right now.
Well, up to that statement, you were right on the money, then your speech went all to shit. Who said that Iraq was "our enemy"? Not even fucking Monkey Boy says that.

Braaaaapppp!!! Thanks for playing, Carol has some lovely parting gifts. Buh-bye \:D
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#646550 - 01/29/07 02:51 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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 Quote:
Where were you when Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of them?
Denouncing that fucking terrorist in the same fashion that we're now denouncing Monkey Boy terrorist. Pay attention!

Ya fucking troll.
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#646551 - 01/29/07 02:56 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
slotz Offline
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Eat shit asshole. Maybe you should have taken your spraypaint can to the Capitol with the rest of your pussy whiners.

http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/012507/protesters.html

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#646552 - 01/29/07 03:06 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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Sometimes you need to deal with situations with a firmer hand. I agree that Vietnam & Iraq are
very similar. Also, that they both were hasty decisions which I wasn't for. But, I really believe the intentions in both cases were good. It would be a mistake to repeat Vietnam and just pull out. The right thing to do at this point is at least get Iraqi forces up to par, so they can defend themselves. It wouldnt hurt if the UN would lend a hand to speed up the process. It's the least thing they could do considering all what the US has done for the UN in the past.

Ive been to England, Switzerland & Hungary.

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#646553 - 01/29/07 03:12 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Wild Offline
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The US did not help Hungary get on its feet after WWII, drhek. What happened after WWII is that the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe, Hungary included, and put down the Iron Curtain over eastern Europe. My family had relatives stuck behind the Iron Curtain there, and the US did not help them. And when the people of Hungary rose up in 1956 and tried to oust the Soviets, when that rebellion arose with US signals that they would help the people throw out the Soviets, the US did nothing and let the Soviet tanks roll through Budapest and shoot students and demonstrators and bring the repression down even harder.

But, the USA of today is not the USA of 1945. We are now the imperialist aggressors.

You are naive if you think the US went into Iraq or Vietnam with good intentions. Vietnam was in part about offshore Vietnamese Atlantic-Richfield oil interests and Iraq is all about oil.

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#646554 - 01/29/07 03:16 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Tuatha De Danann Offline
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Come on Drhek ....ha ha ...are you saying that the rebuilding is a show of goodwill ????? ..... !!!!!!

Have you noticed that almost nothing not connected with producing and exporting oil has been rebuilt? I recently got offered a job to work in Kurdistan, i was thinking ...Kurdistan, where the bejesus is that? ....never seen that on the map, but it sounds familiar ....mmmmmm oh right I see ...you want me to work in Northern Iraq do you?

Dropping candy's in Hungary was very likely a ploy to win hearts and minds away from the threat of the growing USSR. Nothing is for free in this world, not even candy.

For me, here's the way modern war works, not much different from other wars in history, just more sophisticated names for things these days ....


1. someone's got resources you want for free (usually oil)

2. you spoof on to your supporting electorate using mass media that that country is plotting to overthrow your own freedom ...right NOW!!!! Make it sound all ethical ...its the right thing to do ...those poor people .....we can free them and they can watch the Simpsons also ..... Create a slogan e.g. THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR to really scare people into violent blood thirsty action where the enemy are reduced to scabby dogs instead of humans. Now, lets go get em before they get us boy!! tell your mates who gave you loads of money for the election campaign to set up their offshore "rebuilding" companies and get ready to make a lot of money from the treasury. Its pay back time boys!!!

3. you bomb the shit out of that place to cripple the government there ..usually tv stations are first, then roads, bridges, airports, maybe the odd primary school gets hit by a carefully programmed smart bomb "by mistake" just to help show the natives that more will be accidentally dropped if they don't stop supporting their government quickly

4. you give huge budgets to your mates who paid for your election campaign to go in with 10 sweeping brushes and pretend to rebuild civilian infrastructure, don't ask any questions about progress or "value for money", don't audit anything the way a normal business would ensure a project budget and delivery of schedule was run. Let the cash fall of the tables until the pigs are bloated with their greed.

5. Quietly rebuild the minimum infrastructure required to produce and export the resource that you desired

6. hold dummy democratic elections to show that it was all in a good cause, put an english speaking puppet in "power" with a western education in place and throw an ethnic looking tunic over him to make him look a bit more local. Stick a suit and tie on him sometimes to make him look like he's not an opium smoker. Make him stay there even though he knows he's a dead man already.

7. invent another enemy or a few dozen to distract everyone from the humanitarian crisis left behind.

8. Divide and rule the existing population to get a civil war going which is way worse that what you did from the air, again a good distraction and a perfect excuse for getting out quick and from rebuilding anything useful that will be left in the country

9. while everyone's turning in their neighbours as suspected terrorists back home, try to change your country's constitution to make sure you can't get done for war crimes and to make everyone a suspect and make them afraid to even suggest anything of their ruler would be unpatriotic and punishable under the new laws

10. get the UN to sort out the humanitarian and security aftermath, and run for re-election with your now richer mates even bigger donations.


I wonder if Dick Cheyney a richer man today than he was in 2002?


Mike

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#646555 - 01/29/07 03:39 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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I know the US didnt do much for Hungary, but they did alot for West Germany, France and other nations that werent behind the Iron curtain. As powerful a nation the US was during those times, they werent able to help everyone. Keep in mind that the nations who werent consumed by the communist uprising were given aid and allowed to run their own nations the way they wanted. Unfortunately, the Russians were our allies during WWII and they were invaded by Germany in WWII. Hungary was a close allie of Germany.... If anyones truely to blame for the communist uprising in Hungary, it's Germany - not the US.

I know how bad it was in Hungary after WWII under communism too. My parents fled leaving my sister there for 3 years, until they settled here in the States. I still have living relatives who live there who've lived under communism. My family stayed in contact with them consistantly during those times. We brought one of my cousins here back in the 70s. He lives in Seattle now.

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#646556 - 01/29/07 04:46 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Wild Offline
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Posts: 3849
drheck, you need to read some history. There was NO communist uprising in Hungary. The Soviet Union invaded Hungary with tanks and guns. The Soviet Union had twice been attacked in land wars in a single century and lost tens of millions of people, so they decided to make all of Eastern Europe a buffer and in 1946-47, the Soviets invaded and occupied Eastern Europe. The 1956 Hungarian uprising was the Hungarian people trying to throw off Soviet/communist occupation, it was not --- as you wrongly call it --- a Communist uprising.

Yes, the US engaged in the Marshall Plan to help Germany for several reasons, one of which was that the Soviets had already invaded and taken over the eastern part of Germany and would have taken the rest if not for the US and Brits. And without the assistance, the entire west German population would have starved or froze to death, since agriculture and industry had been destroyed. In fact, many Germans froze to death during the winter of 1947 which was horribly frigid and many could not get coal.

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#646557 - 01/29/07 05:10 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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This will explain it better than I can...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Communist_Party

I also have pictures that you won't see anywhere on the internet or in books.... taken by family members before WWII and after WWII; As well as, vivid stories told to me by relatives. I put a bit more credibility in my sources than those of someone who I dont particularly like.

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#646558 - 01/29/07 05:14 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by slotz:
Eat shit asshole. Maybe you should have taken your spraypaint can to the Capitol with the rest of your pussy whiners.
Hey, slotz- your monkey's fucked, and he's goin' down! Is that why you're such an asshole now? 'Cause your precious Monkey Boy is goin' down the fucking tubes? Eh?

Now we're back into the swing of things
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#646559 - 01/29/07 05:23 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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Registered: 06/25/03
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Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
Not to worry. PTSD is strictly a western phenomenon.
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#646560 - 01/29/07 05:24 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
But we have made far more progress in the middle east than the lib media will have you believe. Also, it seems that the major terror forces see Iraq as important enough that they are concentrating there, and now even Iran is trying to sneak in.

Hardly signs that it was the wrong place to wage the war.

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#646561 - 01/29/07 05:28 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Doug C Offline
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Wild is right, IMO. These Iraqi kids will grow up to hate the US specifically and the west in general. Many will be intent on killing american kids in a few years.

Heck of a job.
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#646562 - 01/29/07 05:29 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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 Quote:
But we have made far more progress in the middle east than the lib media will have you believe.
And the pretty flowers and candy-cane lions and tigers that inhabit paulb's little make-believe world get along so well together.

Head in the sand.
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#646563 - 01/29/07 05:37 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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These are tough times in Iraq. There's no denying it. But, what other options are there to make things better there? Do you think a troop withdrawl is one?
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#646564 - 01/29/07 05:46 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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"Wild is right, IMO. These Iraqi kids will grow up to hate the US specifically and the west in general. Many will be intent on killing american kids in a few years."

Christian missionaries will teach them better as soon as things quiet down.

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#646565 - 01/29/07 06:00 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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 Quote:
Christian missionaries will teach them better as soon as things quiet down.
This is quite possibly the most delusional thing that I've ever seen in print.

paulb, are you doin' okay? I'm really starting to worry about the stress you're under.
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#646566 - 01/29/07 06:02 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Wild Offline
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paulb, is it not against your Christian commandments to lie? Then why do you do it all the time?

No, paulb, PTSD is not just a Western phenomena --- why would tell a lie like that??? Children who live in war zones around the world exhibit it, soldiers from different war zones exhibit it. Mothers whose childred were murdered by the Chilean dictatorship exhibit it. It is a human phenonmena. Why do you lie and spread misinformation ALL DAY LONG? Don't you work, or are you sucking off the taxpayers?

The Christians certainly didn't do any good in Darfur, did they? I'm sorry to say this, but I think the Christian missionary types are basically worthless. (I will except the Jesuits who actually start decent schools in the Third World.) I recently read a UN World Health Organization report on an African country, turns out there were 800 Christian churches and missionary centers being run by foreign missionaries in the country, and only 3 clinics and 1 school. This in a country where medical care was a dire need. This tells me that the Christians are only interested in getting their God-brownie points for trying to convert people and have no interest in really helping the people with what they need: food and medicine and education.

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#646567 - 01/29/07 06:04 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Doug C Offline
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He's just kidding, Moose.
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#646568 - 01/29/07 06:10 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
NOK Offline
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yea I caught that too.. ;\) :p \:D

psst don't tell nE body else though

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#646569 - 01/29/07 06:46 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Mooseboy Offline
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Oh, lordy– I feel so cheap and used \:D

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
_________________________
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#646570 - 01/30/07 12:02 AM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
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Registered: 06/25/03
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Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
Nothing against you others, but this shit is way more fun to hit up, so here goes. Love ya moosey!

"paulb, is it not against your Christian commandments to lie?"

a) Am I speaking as a Christian?
b) No lies here.

"Then why do you do it all the time?"

Check b above.

"No, paulb, PTSD is not just a Western phenomena"

I thought that phenomena is plural.

" --- why would tell a lie like that???"

Check b above.

"Children who live in war zones around the world exhibit it,"

Show me some studies from non-western influenced information. Show me some untainted statistics. Or are you going to play the 'if you studied enough you'd know' bullsh&t'.


"soldiers from different war zones exhibit it."

What is 'it'?

"Mothers whose childred were murdered by the Chilean dictatorship exhibit it."

Misandry. Lies,

"It is a human phenonmena."

What is a phenomena? \:\)

"Why do you lie and spread misinformation ALL DAY LONG?"

I've told about what I spend 'all day long' doing, and it is far from spreading lies. It is actually helping disabled people to live as they wish.

"Don't you work, or are you sucking off the taxpayers?"

Indeed I do work. And if you want to talk about the people who suck off the tax payers, your lefty ways will be quite insulted by truth.

"The Christians certainly didn't do any good in Darfur, did they?"

The heathen suffered their sins.

"I'm sorry to say this, but I think the Christian missionary types are basically worthless."

You are not sorry. Who is lying? Worth is worth. Worthless is worthless. Take a closer look at God's truth.

"(I will except the Jesuits who actually start decent schools in the Third World.)"

Okay.

"I recently read a UN World Health Organization report on an African country, turns out there were 800 Christian churches and missionary centers being run by foreign missionaries in the country, and only 3 clinics and 1 school."

You do know about the UN agenda? C'mon!

"This in a country where medical care was a dire need. This tells me that the Christians are only interested in getting their God-brownie points for trying to convert people and have no interest in really helping the people with what they need: food and medicine and education."

This tells ME that you are into bullshit. The Christians, especially these days, save more lives and souls than the rest of the world even cares for.

If you are really into the truth, then you need to spend some time living it.

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#646571 - 01/30/07 03:39 AM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Milkman Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
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So back to topic...the war's not going so well...but we are hearing the drums being beat towards Iran...Let's throw gas onna fire to deal with it..seems as logical as the rest of the story..carry on...
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#646572 - 01/30/07 02:29 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Jazzooo Offline
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Registered: 05/18/02
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Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
""paulb, is it not against your Christian commandments to lie?"

a) Am I speaking as a Christian?"

I haven't read this thread till today, but this exchange caught my eye. Christians can speak as non-Christians? Really? I understand that they have non-Christian thoughts like everyone else, but isn't the deal with God supposed to be that everything you do and say reflects your Christian faith?

it would explain things if I knew Christians thought it was ok to pick and choose when they are supposed to be Christians, and when it is ok to be non-believers, heathens or pagans or some other group they wouldn't ordinarily recognize or support.

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#646573 - 01/30/07 05:15 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Tom Mix Offline
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Registered: 10/15/01
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Loc: Mootown, Wisconsin
Geeeeez.... Jazz found the thread. Beat it quick. \:D
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#646574 - 01/30/07 05:30 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
What makes one person qualified to judge another's faith? Granted, this goes both ways. What rubs me wrong is when someone is new to Christianity and they feel compelled to thrust their faith onto you. Ive mentioned the story about my friend several months ago. I pretty much shut him up by stating the fact that my faith has been consistant throughout my life and that he had nothing to worry about when it came to me. Sure, I havent lived as a perfect Christian. But, I never treated my faith as a rainy day one. Whether it be good times or bad, Ive always had my faith. Never using it as a crutch.
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#646575 - 01/30/07 05:44 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Jazzooo Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 52105
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico ...
You can run, but you can't hide, Tom. ;\)

"What makes one person qualified to judge another's faith?"

I believe that would be The Bible. Also apparently the Koran. It's kind a semantics game as far as I can see--many people wouldn't come right out and say 'I'm judging you because you don't believe what I do,' but they do the same thing by implying that "God" will judge us harshly for not believing as they do.

But this is a side discussion--I'd still like to hear Paul's response.

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#646576 - 01/30/07 05:56 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
drhek2004 Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
Jazzoo, Romans 14:22...

"The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves."

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#646577 - 01/30/07 07:36 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
"But this is a side discussion--I'd still like to hear Paul's response."

Often I speak from the secular viewpoint. What I generally find necessary is to prove my point to seculars in their playing field, as they will not respect God and his word.

Once done, I can go back and pick up the pieces for them, but even after being given the light from the secular perspective, they tend to fall back into their lefty hack sand dunes.

Yes. It is quite ok for me to address secular subject matter with secular material.

Thank you, and Jesus loves you.

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#646578 - 01/30/07 08:05 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Geo Offline
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Registered: 11/09/99
Posts: 17522
Loc: within that soul of mine
I'm sorry, but you are a poor example.
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#646579 - 01/30/07 09:20 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
"I'm sorry, but you are a poor example."

I'm guessing that is addressed towards me. You are probably right my friend. The better Christians are above all of this.

I am but a worker bee.

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#646580 - 01/30/07 09:21 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
NOK Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28771
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
Dr. Robinson
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#646581 - 01/30/07 09:30 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
lsmft Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 2534
here's some background on the site that NOK just liked us to:

The Oregon Petition, sponsored by the OISM, was circulated in April 1998 in a bulk mailing to tens of thousands of U.S. scientists. In addition to the petition, the mailing included what appeared to be a reprint of a scientific paper. Authored by OISM's Arthur B. Robinson, Sallie L. Baliunas, Willie Soon, and Zachary W. Robinson, the paper was titled "Environmental Effects of Increased Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide" and was printed in the same typeface and format as the official Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Also included was a reprint of a December 1997, Wall Street Journal editorial, "Science Has Spoken: Global Warming Is a Myth, by Arthur and Zachary Robinson. A cover note signed "Frederick Seitz/Past President, National Academy of Sciences, U.S.A./President Emeritus, Rockefeller University", may have given some persons the impression that Robinson's paper was an official publication of the academy's peer-reviewed journal. The blatant editorializing in the pseudopaper, however, was uncharacteristic of scientific papers.

Robinson's paper claimed to show that pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is actually a good thing. "As atmospheric CO2 increases," it stated, "plant growth rates increase. Also, leaves lose less water as CO2 increases, so that plants are able to grow under drier conditions. Animal life, which depends upon plant life for food, increases proportionally." As a result, Robinson concluded, industrial activities can be counted on to encourage greater species biodiversity and a greener planet:

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.

Human activities are believed to be responsible for the rise in CO2 level of the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere and surface, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of the CO2 increase. Our children will enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life as [sic] that with which we now are blessed. This is a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution.

In reality, neither Robinson's paper nor OISM's petition drive had anything to do with the National Academy of Sciences, which first heard about the petition when its members began calling to ask if the NAS had taken a stand against the Kyoto treaty. Robinson was not even a climate scientist. He was a biochemist with no published research in the field of climatology, and his paper had never been subjected to peer review by anyone with training in the field. In fact, the paper had never been accepted for publication anywhere, let alone in the NAS Proceedings. It was self-published by Robinson, who did the typesetting himself on his own computer. (It was subsequently published as a "review" in Climate Research, which contributed to an editorial scandal at that publication.)

bottom line - this guy is out of his field and has a history of attempting to scam the public with deceptive publications.
_________________________
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." Dom Helder Camara

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#646582 - 01/30/07 09:34 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
NOK Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28771
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
 Quote:
bottom line - this guy is out of his field and has a history of attempting to scam the public with deceptive publications.
your thoughts right?

so I should belive you too? what is your agenda? ;\) :p \:D

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#646583 - 01/30/07 09:45 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
lsmft Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 2534
 Quote:
Originally posted by NOK:
 Quote:
bottom line - this guy is out of his field and has a history of attempting to scam the public with deceptive publications.
your thoughts right?

so I should belive you too? what is your agenda? ;\) :p \:D
Can you rebut the facts I cite in my post? You don't have to believe me - the facts are what they are.

You seem to think agenda is a dirty word.

I am posting facts to support the argument that elevated levels of greenhouse gasses are a problem. This Dr. Robinson argues in opposition, although he has no standing to do so. Therefor I bring his lack of credentials and questionable history to the attention of the group as a way to discredit his position.
_________________________
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." Dom Helder Camara

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#646584 - 01/30/07 09:58 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
paulb Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
You are posting lefty hack. Not that there is anything wrong with lefty hack, and all of that other lefty wierdo stuff...
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#646585 - 01/30/07 10:08 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
NOK Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28771
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
we shall all see as time goes, what i find interesting is the passion that is put forth here,, it seems like one could use their energies in something more than downtrodding and attempting to pursuade others to see their way.. and if by chance one tends to disagree I Have found this board in the last few years to be as jacakals upon prey..


I joined this board when Moon did.. I came in lighthearted and innonecent.. I have been brought to task for my spelling, my thoughts, my beliefs..

In reality I care not as to the carrying on of man and woman..

some have found that I put things in for aggravation. and for fun . a point on my part that perhahaps i shouldn't given to the temperament of so many involved.. ah, but some are arrogant in their ignorance.. do i speak of my self of you of people at large governments..

i say whatever.. nothing means anymore than what it does to the person involved and when others are found in like cause find relief in the moment..

there is NOTHING I see that anyone has done except spend an ornate amount of words..

bare with me a while longer as i quote Francis Bacon in the quise of Shakespear

Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

am JSD # 60 or something

continue with your ways may U find peace in advirsity

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#646586 - 01/30/07 10:21 PM Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
Geo Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/09/99
Posts: 17522
Loc: within that soul of mine
The candle burns brightest when held in close proximity to a fresh methane source. Ha.
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