#646535 - 01/29/07 05:32 PM
the war's not going so well, eh?
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gonzo
purveyor of noise
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Registered: 08/16/99
Posts: 31444
Loc: SL.UT
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#646536 - 01/29/07 05:39 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Timster
Artist #'s - 130, 298, 412
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 43394
Loc: Center of the Universe
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#646537 - 01/29/07 05:42 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Tom Mix
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Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 32942
Loc: Mootown, Wisconsin
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You mean the democrat vs republican war, wor on drugs, war on poverty or the culture war? Isn't going well for who?
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#646538 - 01/29/07 05:49 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Duckhead
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Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 13524
Loc: n Load!
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What War Does!! 
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Want Really High Speed Internet? Go to Hong Kong! What I know,I know!Its What I dont Know Thats a Problem!Never let an electrical engineer near a telescope or an astronomy book. They may end up correcting the astronomy book! 
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#646539 - 01/29/07 06:08 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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flatcat
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
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I'm concerned that we as a nation are not going to commit ourselves to taking care of the people who have sacrificed themselves in the line of duty. While it's good that fewer servicepeople have been killed in Iraq than in previous conflicts, far, far more of them have been wounded as a percentage of troops in the field. This speaks to our ability to keep soldiers from dying - but many of them are going to be left with life-changing injuries. That's not even to mention the people who will suffer psychologically from the experience.
I just really hope that we put our money toward helping these people who we've asked so much from.
_________________________
The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
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#646540 - 01/29/07 07:41 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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paulb
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Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
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Another milestone in the war on terror.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16839573/
This is significant.
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#646541 - 01/29/07 07:47 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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flatcat
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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 29762
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
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Why do you think that's significant, Paul? Or a "milestone" in the "war on terror"? In terms of milestones, what does it signify?
I honestly don't understand this kind of drumbeating about how it's going so well.
It's not going well. But we can't leave either.
_________________________
The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
Professor Truth T. Sweetness says,"Mind your manners!"
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#646542 - 01/29/07 08:15 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Marty Gilman
Official Planet Sax Monster - Planeteer/Artist # 117
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 26529
Loc: Palm Beach, Florida- U S A
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There is nothing going well in Iraq- nothing.
We are there on false pretenses and had no plan to put in place for after we got there.
I really have sympathy for our troops over there.
-MG
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Can you play that an octave louder?
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#646543 - 01/29/07 08:18 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Hano
Mr.
Planeteer
Registered: 09/24/99
Posts: 17325
Loc: Belgium - E.U.
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Dear Paulb,
Please read some information .
A Week in Iraq
On Sunday 28 January the week ends with 144 reported deaths.
In Baghdad 54 bodies are found in the streets, and two schools are hit by mortars.
In one of the school attacks, 5 girls are killed when mortars hit their schoolyard,
while in Ramadi 2 children are killed when their school is hit.
Near Hilla another 10 people are killed, 3 of them children, car bombs kill 16 in Kirkuk,
an official from the Industry Ministry is murdered along with his daughter and two other employees,
12 die in market bombings in Baghdad, another child among them, and another 10 people die in mortar attacks in Jurf al-Sakhar.
Altogether 11 children die in attacks on Sunday. A further 10 bodies are pulled out of the Tigris.
Hano
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#646544 - 01/29/07 08:22 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Wild
Planeteer
Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 3849
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I really have sympathy for the children over there.
Imagine the terror of the children during the days of shock and awe, the constant noise and bombing, the fear, seeing the fear in their mother's eyes. There wil be a generation of traumatized Iraqi children, many will have PTSD for the rest of their lives. Many will (and have already from Gulf War I) get childhood cancers and leukemias from the U-238 ammo and weaponry. Many are orphans. Many have no schools to go to, the schools having been bombed into oblivion, or it being too dangerous to go out.
This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya.
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#646545 - 01/29/07 08:29 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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paulb
Planeteer
Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
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#646546 - 01/29/07 08:34 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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I have a question. Historically, what other nation bothered to stabilize & rebuild the nation of it's enemy once it was defeated? The US does it all the time. That's pretty much what we're doing in Iraq right now .
My mom told me after WWII, US planes dropped food, candy, toys, clothes... from airplanes in Hungary. At first, they were afraid to go out there to retrieve the stuff with the fear that they were booby trapped. But, come to find out they were just acts of goodwill from the best nation in the world.
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#646547 - 01/29/07 08:46 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Wild
Planeteer
Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 3849
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I take it that you have not travelled outside the US, drheck, or read much history. Or have you been to Vietnam and seen what a mess we left that little country, things are really kind of ugly there now, the victors are very hard on the South Vietnamese.
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#646548 - 01/29/07 08:48 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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slotz
Planeteer
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 18911
Loc: Colleyville, Tx
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"I really have sympathy for the children over there.
Imagine the terror of the children during the days of shock and awe, the constant noise and bombing, the fear, seeing the fear in their mother's eyes. There wil be a generation of traumatized Iraqi children, many will have PTSD for the rest of their lives. Many will (and have already from Gulf War I) get childhood cancers and leukemias from the U-238 ammo and weaponry. Many are orphans. Many have no schools to go to, the schools having been bombed into oblivion, or it being too dangerous to go out.
This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya."
Where were you when Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of them? You didn't give a rat's ass about them then. This whole thread is about blame America, hating America, and hating Dubya.
Another pathetic thread.
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FJBAKH
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#646549 - 01/29/07 08:49 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
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This is how enemies are made. Some of these children will grow up to hate the USA, the country that killed their parents or siblings. And the imans and mullahs will fan that hatred and instead of reducing terror, the USA will have efficiently created a new generation of terrorists. Which will be good for the US politicians because then they can keep spending money on the so-called war on terror. Nice job, Dubya.
That's pretty much what we're doing in Iraq right now.
Braaaaapppp!!! Thanks for playing, Carol has some lovely parting gifts. Buh-bye 
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"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
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#646550 - 01/29/07 08:51 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
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Where were you when Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of them?
Ya fucking troll. 
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
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#646552 - 01/29/07 09:06 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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Sometimes you need to deal with situations with a firmer hand. I agree that Vietnam & Iraq are
very similar. Also, that they both were hasty decisions which I wasn't for. But, I really believe the intentions in both cases were good. It would be a mistake to repeat Vietnam and just pull out. The right thing to do at this point is at least get Iraqi forces up to par, so they can defend themselves. It wouldnt hurt if the UN would lend a hand to speed up the process. It's the least thing they could do considering all what the US has done for the UN in the past.
Ive been to England, Switzerland & Hungary.
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#646553 - 01/29/07 09:12 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Wild
Planeteer
Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 3849
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The US did not help Hungary get on its feet after WWII, drhek. What happened after WWII is that the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe, Hungary included, and put down the Iron Curtain over eastern Europe. My family had relatives stuck behind the Iron Curtain there, and the US did not help them. And when the people of Hungary rose up in 1956 and tried to oust the Soviets, when that rebellion arose with US signals that they would help the people throw out the Soviets, the US did nothing and let the Soviet tanks roll through Budapest and shoot students and demonstrators and bring the repression down even harder.
But, the USA of today is not the USA of 1945. We are now the imperialist aggressors.
You are naive if you think the US went into Iraq or Vietnam with good intentions. Vietnam was in part about offshore Vietnamese Atlantic-Richfield oil interests and Iraq is all about oil.
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#646554 - 01/29/07 09:16 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Tuatha De Danann
Planeteer/Artist # 319
Planeteer
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 1882
Loc: Ireland
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Come on Drhek ....ha ha ...are you saying that the rebuilding is a show of goodwill ????? ..... !!!!!!
Have you noticed that almost nothing not connected with producing and exporting oil has been rebuilt? I recently got offered a job to work in Kurdistan, i was thinking ...Kurdistan, where the bejesus is that? ....never seen that on the map, but it sounds familiar ....mmmmmm oh right I see ...you want me to work in Northern Iraq do you?
Dropping candy's in Hungary was very likely a ploy to win hearts and minds away from the threat of the growing USSR. Nothing is for free in this world, not even candy.
For me, here's the way modern war works, not much different from other wars in history, just more sophisticated names for things these days ....
1. someone's got resources you want for free (usually oil)
2. you spoof on to your supporting electorate using mass media that that country is plotting to overthrow your own freedom ...right NOW!!!! Make it sound all ethical ...its the right thing to do ...those poor people .....we can free them and they can watch the Simpsons also ..... Create a slogan e.g. THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR to really scare people into violent blood thirsty action where the enemy are reduced to scabby dogs instead of humans. Now, lets go get em before they get us boy!! tell your mates who gave you loads of money for the election campaign to set up their offshore "rebuilding" companies and get ready to make a lot of money from the treasury. Its pay back time boys!!!
3. you bomb the shit out of that place to cripple the government there ..usually tv stations are first, then roads, bridges, airports, maybe the odd primary school gets hit by a carefully programmed smart bomb "by mistake" just to help show the natives that more will be accidentally dropped if they don't stop supporting their government quickly
4. you give huge budgets to your mates who paid for your election campaign to go in with 10 sweeping brushes and pretend to rebuild civilian infrastructure, don't ask any questions about progress or "value for money", don't audit anything the way a normal business would ensure a project budget and delivery of schedule was run. Let the cash fall of the tables until the pigs are bloated with their greed.
5. Quietly rebuild the minimum infrastructure required to produce and export the resource that you desired
6. hold dummy democratic elections to show that it was all in a good cause, put an english speaking puppet in "power" with a western education in place and throw an ethnic looking tunic over him to make him look a bit more local. Stick a suit and tie on him sometimes to make him look like he's not an opium smoker. Make him stay there even though he knows he's a dead man already.
7. invent another enemy or a few dozen to distract everyone from the humanitarian crisis left behind.
8. Divide and rule the existing population to get a civil war going which is way worse that what you did from the air, again a good distraction and a perfect excuse for getting out quick and from rebuilding anything useful that will be left in the country
9. while everyone's turning in their neighbours as suspected terrorists back home, try to change your country's constitution to make sure you can't get done for war crimes and to make everyone a suspect and make them afraid to even suggest anything of their ruler would be unpatriotic and punishable under the new laws
10. get the UN to sort out the humanitarian and security aftermath, and run for re-election with your now richer mates even bigger donations.
I wonder if Dick Cheyney a richer man today than he was in 2002?
Mike
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#646555 - 01/29/07 09:39 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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I know the US didnt do much for Hungary, but they did alot for West Germany, France and other nations that werent behind the Iron curtain. As powerful a nation the US was during those times, they werent able to help everyone. Keep in mind that the nations who werent consumed by the communist uprising were given aid and allowed to run their own nations the way they wanted. Unfortunately, the Russians were our allies during WWII and they were invaded by Germany in WWII. Hungary was a close allie of Germany.... If anyones truely to blame for the communist uprising in Hungary, it's Germany - not the US.
I know how bad it was in Hungary after WWII under communism too. My parents fled leaving my sister there for 3 years, until they settled here in the States. I still have living relatives who live there who've lived under communism. My family stayed in contact with them consistantly during those times. We brought one of my cousins here back in the 70s. He lives in Seattle now.
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#646556 - 01/29/07 10:46 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Wild
Planeteer
Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 3849
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drheck, you need to read some history. There was NO communist uprising in Hungary. The Soviet Union invaded Hungary with tanks and guns. The Soviet Union had twice been attacked in land wars in a single century and lost tens of millions of people, so they decided to make all of Eastern Europe a buffer and in 1946-47, the Soviets invaded and occupied Eastern Europe. The 1956 Hungarian uprising was the Hungarian people trying to throw off Soviet/communist occupation, it was not --- as you wrongly call it --- a Communist uprising.
Yes, the US engaged in the Marshall Plan to help Germany for several reasons, one of which was that the Soviets had already invaded and taken over the eastern part of Germany and would have taken the rest if not for the US and Brits. And without the assistance, the entire west German population would have starved or froze to death, since agriculture and industry had been destroyed. In fact, many Germans froze to death during the winter of 1947 which was horribly frigid and many could not get coal.
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#646557 - 01/29/07 11:10 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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This will explain it better than I can...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Communist_Party
I also have pictures that you won't see anywhere on the internet or in books.... taken by family members before WWII and after WWII; As well as, vivid stories told to me by relatives. I put a bit more credibility in my sources than those of someone who I dont particularly like.
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#646558 - 01/29/07 11:14 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
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Originally posted by slotz:
Eat shit asshole. Maybe you should have taken your spraypaint can to the Capitol with the rest of your pussy whiners.
Now we're back into the swing of things
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
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#646559 - 01/29/07 11:23 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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paulb
Planeteer
Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
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Not to worry. PTSD is strictly a western phenomenon.
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#646560 - 01/29/07 11:24 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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paulb
Planeteer
Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
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But we have made far more progress in the middle east than the lib media will have you believe. Also, it seems that the major terror forces see Iraq as important enough that they are concentrating there, and now even Iran is trying to sneak in.
Hardly signs that it was the wrong place to wage the war.
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#646561 - 01/29/07 11:28 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Doug C
Planeteer/Artist # 78
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 10921
Loc: Clayton, California
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Wild is right, IMO. These Iraqi kids will grow up to hate the US specifically and the west in general. Many will be intent on killing american kids in a few years.
Heck of a job.
_________________________
Doug C
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#646562 - 01/29/07 11:29 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
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But we have made far more progress in the middle east than the lib media will have you believe.
Head in the sand.
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
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#646563 - 01/29/07 11:37 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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drhek2004
Planeteer
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 11353
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These are tough times in Iraq. There's no denying it. But, what other options are there to make things better there? Do you think a troop withdrawl is one?
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#646564 - 01/29/07 11:46 PM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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paulb
Planeteer
Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 23691
Loc: Rural Kansas. Sometimes in Oz.
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"Wild is right, IMO. These Iraqi kids will grow up to hate the US specifically and the west in general. Many will be intent on killing american kids in a few years."
Christian missionaries will teach them better as soon as things quiet down.
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#646565 - 01/30/07 12:00 AM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37212
Loc: Black Mountain Hills of Dakota
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Christian missionaries will teach them better as soon as things quiet down.
paulb, are you doin' okay? I'm really starting to worry about the stress you're under.
_________________________
"My fingers go wiggle wiggle and the music goes jingle jangle and the crowd is happy"
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#646566 - 01/30/07 12:02 AM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Wild
Planeteer
Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 3849
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paulb, is it not against your Christian commandments to lie? Then why do you do it all the time?
No, paulb, PTSD is not just a Western phenomena --- why would tell a lie like that??? Children who live in war zones around the world exhibit it, soldiers from different war zones exhibit it. Mothers whose childred were murdered by the Chilean dictatorship exhibit it. It is a human phenonmena. Why do you lie and spread misinformation ALL DAY LONG? Don't you work, or are you sucking off the taxpayers?
The Christians certainly didn't do any good in Darfur, did they? I'm sorry to say this, but I think the Christian missionary types are basically worthless. (I will except the Jesuits who actually start decent schools in the Third World.) I recently read a UN World Health Organization report on an African country, turns out there were 800 Christian churches and missionary centers being run by foreign missionaries in the country, and only 3 clinics and 1 school. This in a country where medical care was a dire need. This tells me that the Christians are only interested in getting their God-brownie points for trying to convert people and have no interest in really helping the people with what they need: food and medicine and education.
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#646567 - 01/30/07 12:04 AM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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Doug C
Planeteer/Artist # 78
Planeteer
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 10921
Loc: Clayton, California
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He's just kidding, Moose.
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Doug C
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#646568 - 01/30/07 12:10 AM
Re: the war's not going so well, eh?
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NOK
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 12/29/00
Posts: 28813
Loc: hanging N the GarAge
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yea I caught that too..  :p
psst don't tell nE body else though
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