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#762626 - 09/22/08 08:37 PM Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
There are apparently 3 version up procedures, per the VS-840 service manual.

1) Normal version-up via MIDI.
2) Normal version-up via ZIP 100 disk.
3) The "Compelling Version Up" via ZIP 100 disk.

Here's what the Roland Service Manual, dated Feb. 1999 has to say.

 Quote:

VS-840EX SYSTEM SOFTWARE UPDATE

* CAUTION!!
Do not turn off the VS-840EX during it's system software updating. If not, the program in the flash memory is destroyed. In this case, perform the compelling version-up procedure to recover it.

The VS-840 sytem software is supplied in the standard MIDI file (SMF) data format (P/No. 17048943)

Each system disk contains the following SMF data. Load these data to VS-840EX, starting with Disk 1 (VS84EX-1.MID).

VS-840EX System Ver. *.** SMF Disk 1

VS84EX-1.MID
VS84EX-2.MID
VS84EX-3.MID
VS84EX-4.MID

VS-840EX System Ver. *.** SMF Disk 2

VS84EX-5.MID
VS84EX-6.MID
VS84EX-7.MID
VS84EX-8.MID

Update the VS-840EX by following the procedure described below.

1. Connect the MIDI OUT of a MIDI sequencer capable of playing back SMF data in sequence (e.g., SB-55) to MIDI IN of VS-840EX, through a MIDI cable.

2. Holding MODE, INPUT and ENTER buttons, turn on VS-840EX.

3. The message "Receive MID-EX?" will be displayed. Press YES button.

4. Verify that "Now Waiting ..." is displayed. Playback all SMFs in the order of number.

5. The message "Version Up?" will appear. Press YES button.

6. The message "User Area Update? will appear. Press YES button.

7. When the message "END!!! Please POWER OFF/ON" appears, Turn OFF and then ON VS-840EX.

This completes updating.

Initialization, User area, VS-840EX system software update using the ZIP DISK (P/No. 17048942)

VS-480EX can also be updated by using the System Data ZIP DISK. hen using the ZIP DISK, VS-840EX can be upgraded either of the following 2 ways.

1. Using standard version-up procedure. This procedure keeps the user data unchanged (no initialization).

2. To initialize the user data or loading the factory presets, the compelling version-up procedure must be followed.

Standard version-up procedure

1. Insert the latest System Data ZIP DISK into VS-840EX ZIP drive. Turn on VS-840EX.

2. The message "Version up?" appears. Press YES button.

3. When the message "Are you sure?" appears, press YES button. The program displays "SYSTEM WRITE", indicating it starts version-up sequence.

4. Upon "END!!! Please POWER OFF/ON" message, turn OFF and then ON VS-840EX.

This completes updating.

Compelling version up

1. Holding down TR1, TR2, TR3, TR4 and RIGHT buttons, turn on VS-840EX. (NOTE: The TR1, TR2, TR3, TR4 buttons are the round buttons labeled A, B, C, D below the TRACK CUE rotary faders).

2. The message "Clear Flash?" will appear. Press YES button.

3. The message "Are you sure?" will appear. Press YES button.

4. The program displays "SYSTEM WRITE", indicating that it is clearing flash memory.

5. Upon "END!!! Please POWER OFF/ON" message, turn OFF VS-840EX.

6. Insert the System Data ZIP DISK into the drive. Holding down PLAY, REC and ENTER buttons, turn ON VS-840EX.

7. The program displays "BAD FLASH!!" and then "SYSTEM WRITE", indicating that it is starting compelling version-up sequence.

8. Upon "END!!!! Please RESET!" message, turn OFF and then ON VS-840EX.

This completes compelling updating.

To recover the unit after Error Message has been displayed

When error messge "Don't match CPU" or "Can't Version Up" has been displayed and locks up from the power off during Eject or Shut down, you need to re-load the System program. Please refer to the following procedure.

1. Insert the System Data ZIP DISK into the VS-840EX drive and then turn ON the VS-840EX.

2. The display may show "BAD FLASH!!" and then "SYSTEM WRITE.". The compelling version-up starts.

3. After "END!!! Please RESET!" is displayed, turn the power OFF and ON again.

4. Complete.

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#770418 - 10/07/08 11:59 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Update to the information above.

I ordered the ZIP DISK (P/No. 17048942) referenced in the Service Manual Procedure, above. What Roland US parts and service sent me, was a 1.44Mb floppy disk, marked "Roland VS-840EX Update Disk V. 2.05 - 10933". I tried the floppy disk in all 3 of my WinXP computers and each reported that the floppy disk was not formatted. So I've no way of knowing what system update file was supposed to be on the disk. Note that the Packing Sheet that accompanied the disk, said it was the Standard MIDI Files (SMF) for version 2.00.

In the last week, member BASSBALL reported HERE that the "Compelling Version Up" procedure (press A+B+C+D+RIGHT and power on) would NOT update with a standard (user made) ZIP 100 flash update disk.

Accordingly: DO NOT DO THE COMPELLING VERSION-UP PROCEDURE WITHOUT THE SPECIFIC ROLAND ZIP DISK REQUIRED ABOVE.

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#770421 - 10/07/08 12:01 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Monday morning, October 6th, 2008, I filed a support request with Roland Support as follows:

 Quote:
I own a VS-840 and actively support VS-840 users at VSPlanet.com. Regularly, VS-840 owners request support for units that have failed with a BAD FLASH or DON'T MATCH CPU error, caused by 1) improper shutdown, 2) failed flash update, or 3) power failure. A few users have reported that the recovery is as simple as re-setting / re-flashing the failed 840 with a service level ZIP 100 disk. Can this disk be made available to the user community for a nominal fee? Thanks, Jack Helser


Shortly after filing the support request, Roland answered and closed the support request with:

 Quote:
"At this point a 'Can't Version Up' or 'Don't Match CPU' is still a service call."


That afternoon, I opened a new support request to ask:

 Quote:
VS-840 users with the bad flash failure, have watched authorized Roland service technicians fix their failed 840's with a ZIP 100 disk and nothing more, then charge them $150 for 5 minutes work. Whom should the community ask within Roland to make the disk available for us? Thanks, Jack Helser


As of Tuesday, October 7th, the 2nd request is still pending.

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#770426 - 10/07/08 12:11 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
In the meantime, I have penned a letter to the president of Roland US, as listed by the Better Business Bureau BBB of Los Angeles, to request a change in policy concerning the repair of flash-ROM based errors. Specifically, to make the service level ZIP 100 disk available to the user community at nominal cost.

If Roland Support responds favorably, there will be no need for the letter. I just wanted to be prepared for the next step. Here is the draft of my letter to Mr. Houlihan, president of Roland:

 Quote:
Mr. Dennis Houlihan, President
Roland Corp. U S
5100 S Eastern Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90040

Dear Mr. Houlihan,

In 1999, I purchased a Roland VS-840 for $1100. Like many musicians, I found the VS-840 easy to use and with it I recorded 2 original albums and several singles. In 2003, I joined the VS-840 support forum at VSPlanet.com where I have been helping VS-840 owners use and maintain their recorders for over 5 years. There is an active re-sale market for the VS-840 and many new users are introduced to Roland products when they purchase one on eBay, for under $100 these days.

Frequently, VS-840 owners log-in to VSPlanet.com to ask for assistance with a machine that has been rendered inoperative by a BAD FLASH, CAN'T VERSION-UP or DON'T MATCH CPU error. For many years now, our advice has been consistent with the stated policy of Roland Product Support, that these Flash ROM-based errors require a trip to the Roland Service Center.

User community experience suggests that the errors are caused by a power disruption, failed flash update or untimely disk ejection. Owners who have taken their failed recorders to the shop, have typically been charged $150 for repair, which is more than the VS-840 sells for these days. A few owners have reported watching the service technician perform the repair, where the fix took less than 5 minutes and involved nothing more than cycling a system level ZIP 100 disk through the failed VS-840 to re-flash the ROM. Understandably, those owners have felt gouged by the excessive cost to repair, especially since the fix was so simple and quick.

VS-840 owners are familiar with the flash ROM update process, whether by ZIP disk based flash ROM update or by SMF files transmitted through a MIDI sequencer. What few users who have reported back to the forum after their machine was fixed at a Roland Service Center, say that applying the service level ZIP recovery disk is no different than the flash update process.

We realize that the VS-840 is nearing the end of its service life and Roland no longer offers such optional accessories as the VS-840 Video Owners Manual and VS4S-1 SCSI Interface. Still, the VS-840 is a viable recorder for countless thousands of musicians.

On behalf of the VS-840 user community, I request that Roland US would make available, at nominal cost, the same ZIP 100 recovery disk used by Roland Service Center technicians to repair flash ROM based errors in the VS-840, VS-840EX and VS-840GX recorders. This we ask is in the same spirit of end-user support by Roland US who has made available the VS-840 user manuals in PDF format and ROM update files through the RolandUS.com.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Jack Helser



I considered mentioning the fact that Roland US is directly responsible for some of these flash update failures, because they previously offered the ZIP disk-based update files, but provided NO WARNING to the user community that a VS-840EX formatted ZIP 250 disk was NOT compatible with Microsoft Windows used to write the update file to the VS-840EX formatted disk. Every user who attempted to flash their EX from 2.0x to 2.05 with a ZIP 250 disk made under MS Windows, received a BAD FLASH and CAN'T VERSION-UP error.

If I can figure out a non-threatening way of stating that, I'll include it in the letter.

Any thoughts or comments?

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#771507 - 10/09/08 12:33 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Roland support still has not responded to my 2nd request on their 'help system', above. So I take that as a 'blow off'. The letter to Dennis Houlihan, president of Roland, goes out today. I've revised it as follows.

 Quote:
09 October 2008


Mr. Dennis Houlihan, President
Roland Corp. U S
5100 S Eastern Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90040

Dear Mr. Houlihan,

In 1999, I purchased a Roland VS-840 for $1100. Like many musicians, I found the VS-840 easy to use and with it I recorded 2 original albums and several singles. In 2003, I joined the VS-840 support forum at VSPlanet.com where I have been helping VS-840 owners use and maintain their recorders for many years. There is an active re-sale market for the VS-840 and many new users are introduced to Roland products when they purchase one on eBay, for under $100 these days.

Frequently, VS-840 owners log-in to VSPlanet.com to ask for assistance with a machine that has been rendered inoperative by a BAD FLASH, CAN'T VERSION-UP or DON'T MATCH CPU Flash ROM-based error. For many years now, our advice has been consistent with the policy of Roland Product Support, that these Flash ROM-based errors require a trip to the Roland Service Center. Realistically, with the cost to repair averaging $150, while the current resale value of a VS-840 is under $100, many owners simply discard their failed machines.

Review of the entire Roland DAW message base at VSPlanet.com suggests the most common causes of a VS-840 flash ROM-based error is power disruption, untimely disk ejection (improper shut-down) or a failed Flash ROM update. Also, the knowledge base indicates these Flash ROM-based errors are unique to the VS-840 series, thereby suggesting that the rest of the VS line of recorders has a more robust / fault-tolerant OS than the VS-840 series.

Some of the owners who paid to have their machines repaired have reported that it was as simple as cycling a system level ZIP 100 disk through the unit to re-flash the ROM. Understandably, the owners felt taken advantage of by the excessive cost to repair, since the fix took less than 5 minutes and didn't even require opening the machine.

Accordingly, the VS-840 user community requests that Roland US make available at nominal cost, the same ZIP 100 recovery disk used by the Roland Service Center technicians to repair flash ROM-based errors in the VS-840, VS-840EX and VS-840GX recorders.

We realize that the VS-840 is nearing the end of its product life and Roland US no longer offers such optional accessories as the VS-840 Video Owners Manual and VS4S-1 SCSI Interface. Still, the VS-840 is a viable digital recorder for countless thousands of musicians. Timely and cost effective Roland Product Support for these Flash ROM-based failures is requested in the same spirit of support wherein Roland US has made available product user manuals in PDF format and ROM update files through the RolandUS.com web site.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Jack Helser

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#775404 - 10/17/08 12:58 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Roland answered my Support request Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:14 PM. Their reply follows:

 Quote:
Jack,

Unfortunately, it is a protected disk that is no longer available even for local service centers that do not already have a copy of it. At this point, most VS-840s that "Cannot Version UP" would have to be sent to our main service center in Los Angeles.


It appears that the only option left, would be for the President of Roland to initiate a policy change to make the disk available to the user community, or, put an end to the price gouging and fix the VS-840s for a nominal fee.

Otherwise, the 840 has reached the point where the cost to repair them exceeds the marketplace value of a used 840.

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#795865 - 12/02/08 12:41 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
DrJugband Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Australia
Any further news??? Any luck , Bassball? Are you still fired up, Cornjerker?
Otherwise I have a dead VS80 and a CF card reader (and CF cards) up for grabs.
(sniff)
_________________________
DrJugband

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#795933 - 12/02/08 08:22 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: DrJugband]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
No reply from Roland / Mr. Houlihan yet, Dr. J.

Not replying to a letter from a customer, esp. one that claims to speak for a group of customers, is foreign to my business training. How well I remember working for a large aerospace company, who bent over backwards to reply to every customer inquiry. They understood the value of a lifetime customer relationship.

In my view, Roland's non-response and inaction puts them on a par with snake-oil salesman. I damn sure will never buy another Roland product.

Jugband, since I sent the letter to them on the 9th of October, I'd like to give them a few more weeks to reply. If nothing by the first of the year, I'll file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and amend this thread with the information for other users to file a similar complaint.

At the very least, we'll have the satisfaction of documenting Roland's non-support and in particular the ROM-based failures unique (and chronic) to the VS-840.

Jack

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#813765 - 01/17/09 10:55 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
UPDATE:

As of this date, Saturday, January 17th, Roland US / Mr. Houlihan, has not responded to my letter of October 9th.

Accordingly, I'll be filing a complaint with the BBB in California some time next week. I'll post a copy and reference number of the complaint when it's been filed.

Jack

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#824582 - 02/10/09 12:06 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
This morning, I filed complaint with the Better Business Bureau. The complaint follows:

 Quote:
TYPE: Product Quality

SUMMARY: Roland VS-840, VS-840EX and VS-840GX digital recorders are rendered inoperable by power outage, disk ejection and failed ROM flash update.

DETAIL: Roland digital recorder models VS-840, VS-840EX and VS-840GX are rendered inoperable by an unexpected power outage, disk ejection prior to shut down, or a failed ROM BIOS flash update. The LED of an inoperable recorder reads either BAD FLASH, CAN'T VERSION-UP or DON'T MATCH CPU. Roland requires these units to be sent to an authorized Service Center where owners report paying up to $150 for repair.

For perspective, imagine sending your PC to Microsoft or IBM for repair whenever a power failure or ejecting a floppy disk caused the BIOS to become corrupt?

Some VS-840 owners report watching the service technician repair the inoperable machines by cycling a system level disk through the drive to re-flash the ROM. Understandably, these owners felt ripped off by the excessive cost to repair, for 5 minutes work, that didnít require opening the unit.

Note that Roland is directly responsible for some flash update failures, because they previously offered the ZIP disk-based update files through RolandUS.com, but provided NO WARNING to the user community that a VS-840EX formatted ZIP 250 disk was NOT compatible with the Microsoft DOS/Windows file system used to write the update file to a VS-840EX formatted disk. Every user who attempted to flash their EX from 2.0x to 2.05 with a ZIP 250 disk made under Microsoft DOS/Windows, received a BAD FLASH and CAN'T VERSION-UP error.

RESOLUTION SOUGHT: Make the service level disk available to VS-840 owners at nominal cost (for media), or as a digital download on RolandUS.com, or fix the units for free at Roland US. This request is on behalf of the Roland VS-840 user community at VSPlanet.com. Many of us believe these failures are the fault of poor design quality. A power failure or disk ejection should NOT render a unit inoperable.

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#825249 - 02/12/09 08:04 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
BBB acknowledged the complaint this morning

 Quote:

February 11, 2009

Re: Complaint #98383965 - Roland Corp. U S

This is to let you know that we have sent your complaint to the company for a response, which is the first step in our complaint resolution procedure. We will notify you of the company's response as soon as we receive it, but please allow at least 14 days to hear from us. In the meantime, if the company should contact you directly, please let us know. You may do this online or by fax or mail, using the contact information on this letterhead. If you have any questions, please call us.

Thank you for using the Better Business Bureau.

p.s. Do you know if you just want to let others know about your good or bad experience and aren't seeking a specific result, you should join our TrustLink Community. You can write reviews, see what others have said, connect with friends, and check out BBB Reliability Reports. Visit http://www.trustlink.org and link up!

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#831545 - 02/26/09 09:16 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Received the following reply from RolandUS (RUS) late last night, Wednesday, February 25th:

 Quote:
Company's Response
Company's Initial Response - Posted 02/25/2009

The VS-840, VS-840EX and VS-840GX all use Zip disk drives to store data and also for updating the system (system is stored on a FLASH ROM chip). We are aware of a very sporadic problem that may occur when updating using a Zip disk, crashing the system and rendering the VS-840 inoperable. This can easily be fixed by our service center with a special update disk that re-writes the system correctly. On very rare occasion, the CPU is also affected when the crash occurs and this results in a bigger service problem that requires the CPU to be replaced. Because of this possibility, RUS has not (to this point) made this disk available to the public. The disk also has protection included on it that does not allow it to be duplicated (or uploaded to our website for later download). The best course of action in these cases would be for the customer to call Customer Service at 323 890-3700 and request a return authorization number (RA)-to send the unit to our service center in Los Angeles. If the RUS technicians determine the problem to be the one described above, RUS will complete the repair and return the unit at no charge (to the original buyer with proof of purchase ó regardless of date). Ancillary repairs, including wear and tear (switches, drives, cleaning, etc) would be considered outside of the warranty responsibility of RUS and a repair estimate would be presented to the-customer before any work is done. The customer would also bear the cost of returning the, unit to RUS. Aside from the extension of the warranty period, this policy is consistent with normal RUS warranty practices and procedures. We have rarely had a call on this particular issue in Product Support (maybe once a year) and Service reports similar timing on this issue in their area. Therefore, Roland will not extend this offer to our outside service center network to address this issue, as the accrual of data and quality of repair will be crucial to Roland US. We hope this solution is agreeable to all parties.

Initial Response Summary

Roland will not extend this offer to our outside service center network to address this issue, as the accrual of data and quality of repair will be crucial to Roland US.


Per the BBB web site, I have 7 days to accept or rebut Roland's response above.

I'm hoping some of you will weigh in with your thoughts before I submit a response early next week. I figure our reply should be submitted no later than Tuesday evening, March 3rd.

There are a few things that come to mind for our rebuttal.

1) Since 840 users have always had the choice to use either RolandUS in L.A. or a local authorized Roland repair center, many of which quote outrageous repair prices, wherein the 840 owner decides simply to trash their 840, it's not accurate of Roland to say it's an infrequent problem. Rather, it should be said that it's the infrequent 840 owner who decides to spend the dough on the fix ... how many 840 owners are presented with a $150 estimate to fix their blown 840 at a local service center and opt not to repair because the 840 is going for <$100 on eBay? How many turn to VSPlanet for help, or the 840 forums on Yahoo? There is certainly more than 1 occurrence per year.

2) I'd like to ask Roland to publish a service bulletin or the like to the RolandUS web site under 840/ex/gx support sections about fixing the BAD FLASH/Can't Version Up/Don't Match CPU errors for original owners, at the RUS L.A. facility, for free (owner pay's shipping).

3) With the statement concerning "original buyer with proof of purchase ó regardless of date", it appears 2nd hand owners will have to pay for the repair themselves. No problem for those of us who popped $1000 for the 840 new, but for the droves of eBay buyers who pick up a used 840 for chump change, they are at the mercy of Roland for repair costs. Accordingly, I'd like to ask Roland for a trouble shooting guide to assist with recovery before sending it to RolandUS in L.A. via return authorization number (RA).

4) As for making available the ZIP 100 service disk because of "protection included on it that does not allow it to be duplicated (or uploaded to our website for later download)", I'd like to ask Roland 1) for a copy of the disk and/or making an ISO type image of the disk that can be written by disk imaging / burning software. I've checked out a few such programs, freeware - perhaps one of these would work to transmit the disk image and create a service disk.

Are there any other ideas / comments?

Jack

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#831735 - 02/26/09 03:57 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Philph Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 46
Hi Jack as they are responsible why should we have to pay postage and or repair, whether it is second hand or we have lost our receipt. I am new but you have a point below I quote you:-

[/quote]
I considered mentioning the fact that Roland US is directly responsible for some of these flash update failures, because they previously offered the ZIP disk-based update files, but provided NO WARNING to the user community that a VS-840EX formatted ZIP 250 disk was NOT compatible with Microsoft Windows used to write the update file to the VS-840EX formatted disk. Every user who attempted to flash their EX from 2.0x to 2.05 with a ZIP 250 disk made under MS Windows, received a BAD FLASH and CAN'T VERSION-UP error.

If I can figure out a non-threatening way of stating that, I'll include it in the letter.
[/quote]
Keep up the good work, I wish I could understand it all, hopefully i won't have to, not sure i want to risk an update. Is how Roland want to be seen as I am not convinced it is a sign of good customer relations.

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#831888 - 02/26/09 06:34 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Philph]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Yeah, I agree, Phil, but Roland did the typical business thing on that ... Jim Y reported the problem to Roland some years ago and Roland responded by simply deleting the ZIP-based v2.0x flash updates from their web site, leaving only the MIDI file updates on their site.

I believe they should have offered to fix blown VS-840EX's for free, but they didn't.

Some of us still had the v2.05 ZIP file update and so I put it on my web site, AFTER I revised the TXT file in the archive with a warning about using ZIP 250 disks and recommended using a ZIP 100 disk only.

I'm not certain, but I think Roland US can only make/honor this policy change for US owners. A change to the European Roland franchises (?) can only come from them or as directed by Roland in Japan, I suspect.

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#832810 - 03/01/09 12:23 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
I posted a 'rebuttal' to RolandUS' reply on the BBB web site:

 Quote:
Roland's offer to repair affected machines is appreciated. We ask Roland to consider the following.

In the past, owners chose between sending machines to Roland or taking them for repair locally. Upon receiving a phone quote, some owners discard their machines because the cost to repair exceeds re-sale value. Few owners will spend $150 for repair, which explains the low numbers seen by Roland. Instead, they turn to free help sources, such as VSPlanet.com forums, where failed 840's are reported more often than 'one per year'.

Accordingly, we request:

1)Please post a support bulletin on RolandUS.com with any information to help owners repair their machines, if such is possible, before calling for an RA. This also benefits 2nd hand owners not covered by the new policy.

2)Please post the repair policy on RolandUS.com.

3)Please consider sending 1 or more service disks to VSPlanet.com, with permission to attempt duplication, for free distribution to 840 owners on request. We have the hardware to effect duplication and experience with sector based disk imaging software.

Thank you for your consideration.

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#837392 - 03/11/09 02:00 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
VSLOVER Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 6

This is confusing and infuriating to me. You say you are familiar with sector based copying, but you on your own volition copied in M$ windows and screwed up your unit and that is somehow the manufacturer's problem?


Edited by VSLOVER (03/11/09 06:16 PM)

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#837402 - 03/11/09 02:25 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
 Originally Posted By: VSLOVER
This is confusing and infuriating to me. You say you are familiar with sector based copying, but you on your own volition copied in M$ windows and screwed up your unit and that is somehow the manufacturer's problem?


Yes, it is.

Roland put the ZIP disk based flash ROM update file on their web site, which when VS-840EX and GX owners downloaded and wrote to their ZIP 250 disks, PER ROLAND INSTRUCTIONS, then flashed their machines, corrupted the ROM BECAUSE the VS-840EX/GX ZIP 250 file system is NOT compatible with the MS Windows/DOS file system. It has to do with the block size Roland uses.

Roland continued distributing the update archive with instructions that didn't work, for some time, until one of our UK users brought it to Roland's attention, who then only deleted the update file(s) from their web site, leaving only the MIDI-based update files for users.

Did they offer to fix machines that were corrupted by users who used the files/instructions Roland provided?

Nope.

Instead, they've orphaned the VS-840/EX/GX line and owners and charge $150 to repair the "BAD FLASH/Don't Match CPU/Can't Version Up" errors, some of which are their fault and / or are the result of an apparently poorly designed OS that allows for corrupting the ROM-based OS by nothing more than an untimely disk ejection, power failure, or flash update that didn't take, even the ones done from a ZIP 100 disk, which IS Microsoft OS compatible.

VSLover, I'd recommend you search ALL the VS machine and BR machine archives, for any evidence of a similar flash ROM update problem in ANY of the other VS/BR line. The problem described is unique to the VS-840 line and we've been gouged by Roland for years.

A complaint to the BBB is most appropriate, the outcome of which I'm hopeful Roland will come clean to those of us who have and still use VS-840's.

And yes, I am familiar with Linux/DD, et al. It is however, not necessary to make a flash update disk on ZIP 100 media.

DD will however be required to duplicate the Roland Service Disk, with protection, IF they ever release it to the 840 user community.

Good luck with the 2480 - but do tell - how would you feel if you turned it off one evening, came in the next day and turned it on, only to see the LED flashing "BAD FLASH / Can't Version Up" ... are you under the impression that you should be able to turn your VS-2480 off and on without rendering it inoperable?

Jack

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#838609 - 03/13/09 11:26 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
FOLLOW-UP

The BBB gave Roland 2 weeks to reply to the rebuttal (above). Sadly (though not surprisingly), Roland did not respond.

The BBB has administratively closed the complaint as 'Roland not responsive' and has dropped their BBB rating to an "F" grade.

See http://www.la.bbb.org/BusinessReport.aspx?CompanyID=55956

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#838693 - 03/14/09 08:42 AM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Philph Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 46
Ha ha, good work that must be such an embarrassment for Roland, wonder what it will do to their share price. All they needed to do was reply and the could have got a D or E.
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#844243 - 03/27/09 04:02 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
VSLOVER Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 6
?
Where does it say they got an F?

The BBB actually does something? Amazing!

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#844311 - 03/27/09 05:34 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Their rating, as of my post above, was an "F". The summary of complaints at that time, listed a number of complaints that were NOT answered by Roland. It was a "C" or "C-" at the time I filed my complaint.

Now it's an "A-".

So, does that mean the BBB scrolls off the negative reviews of a company faster than the positive reviews, or, has someone jacked their rating?

OK - Just checked the response again, after the BBB administratively closed it a few weeks ago as "non responsive" with an "F" rating. Roland posted a new response just yesterday, and I received NO notice of their new reply from the BBB.

Roland's 'final' reply follows:

 Quote:
Company's Final Response
Company's Final Response - Posted 03/26/200

Roland states, via email; We started shipping VS-840 Digital Recorders in 10/97. At some point in time we made the update disk avail for the VS-840 to Roland authorized service centers. Which are independently owned & operated & contract with Roland to provide standard warranty repair. Because of long life of product, we reached a point where all units were out of warranty, thus we no longer paid service centers to perform warranty work on those units, as we do with any products once product is discontinued & past for warranty repairs. Some service centers might have been charging a fee to repair the VS-840 once they're out of warranty. Roland Service has never charged for the update. We have only one of the update disks at our service center in LA. It's possible that some of our authorized service centers around the U.S. also have this disk & they may still be charging for the update. These centers are independently owned & operated, & free to charge what they wish for any repair. Call Roland Customer Service & ask for an RA for the VS-840 update disk procedure. Send unit to Roland with noted RA & Roland will cover the cost of the update & ship back to our customer at our expense.


You'll notice that they did NOT address my questions at all. My request that they post notice to their web support page for the VS-840 or knowledge base, or providing a copy of the repair disk. Their answer talks about the "update" disk, not the "repair" disk for FLASH ROM corruption, which is the subject of the complaint. They have the disk; one is all they need to make copies, but by their reply, it's clear they won't.

Would that Roland's reply were more helpful, though I'm not surprised by this. It's typical of what I saw from subcontractors for 20+ years as a Quality Assurance investigator in the aerospace industry. It's evasive and demonstrates a lack of concern / commitment for owners and reluctance to engage an owner / user in good-faith dialogue to help the community.

As for you, VSLOVER - isn't it interesting how you showed up here and chastised me (then deleted your remarks), only AFTER I posted the complaint to the BBB in which I mentioned VSPlanet forums, and again the day after Roland posted another reply. You have 2 posts, both in this thread - both concurrent with Roland's replies on the BBB site.

So, you're a Roland employee, right?


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#844317 - 03/27/09 05:38 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Philph Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 46
They are suddenly an A- from an F. How did they do that within 3 weeks? Have they been replying to all your complaints or is it too large a company for the BBB?
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#844984 - 03/29/09 01:52 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
Planeteer


Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Originally Posted By: Cornjerker
As for you, VSLOVER - isn't it interesting how you showed up here and chastised me (then deleted your remarks), only AFTER I posted the complaint to the BBB in which I mentioned VSPlanet forums, and again the day after Roland posted another reply. You have 2 posts, both in this thread - both concurrent with Roland's replies on the BBB site.

So, you're a Roland employee, right?



I traced the IP address of VSLOVER and it came back with AT&T WorldNet Services ATT which is the internet provider I guess, and then ROLAND CORPORATION US ROLAND based out of Los Angeles for his specific IP address.

Here's a tip - Roland employees might not want to post from work if they wish to remain anonymous.

Good call Cornie!!! And pretty lame VSLOVER. VSLOVER, maybe you could help provide some support to resolve the situation instead of bashing people who are trying to help others to fix a problem with their VS units.

Wish
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#844997 - 03/29/09 02:26 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Wish]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Thanks Wish. I thought something smelled funny.

It's one thing for the business unit of Roland to make a decision not to support an old piece of equipment, but quite another to actively seek out a user(s) who are trying to keep their machines going, to help the users Roland has abandoned, and chastise / harass them.

VSLOVER's original message (before he revised it) really unloaded on me about the BBB complaint and blamed ME and other VS-840 owners for causing the problem in the first place and then expressed indignation that we would suggest Roland should repair the problems he alleges we caused.

I can assure you, after witnessing the CONTEMPT Roland and its employees have for VS-840 owners, I will NEVER buy another Roland, BOSS, or Edirol product.

This is funny, just checked the Internic WHOIS for "RolandSUCKS.com" domain name, as well as .net and .org. Roland registered them all, about the time they released the VS-840. ;\) \:D


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#844998 - 03/29/09 02:32 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
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Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I never saw his orignal post before he edited it, but that kind of behavior is pretty much stalking IMO - to seek out VSPlanet and create a user ID with the only intent to harrass you. At least that's how it seems.

Maybe he will come back and try to help, but somehow I doubt it. I don't think VSLOVER is going to come back here and respond now that he has been outed.
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#845023 - 03/29/09 04:09 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Wish]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
Yeah, I should have quoted his original message in its entirety ... he claimed to be a business owner, hassling with an unreasonable customer about fixing something ... the part I quoted above, was the last paragraph in a several paragraph rant.

I didn't quote it all, because I was trying to be reasonable and polite in dealing with Roland and clearly, VSLOVER doesn't understand the problem ...

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#845317 - 03/30/09 03:54 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Cornjerker]
VSLOVER Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 6
hahahhahha! no i dont work for roland! hahahaha!

ill just go back to lurking. i dont want to be accused of shooting jfk next!
wow.

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#845325 - 03/30/09 04:27 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
Planeteer


Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Yes, VSLOVER? I didn't get a chance to read your post from today before you edited/deleted it.

Do you have anything you want to contribute here?

Wish
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#845330 - 03/30/09 04:54 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
Planeteer


Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Originally Posted By: VSLOVER
hahaha i dont work for roland!! hahahaha i was just going to ask where i can pick up my paycheck if i work for roland, but decided against it.


It's funny how your IP address says it's from Roland in Los Angeles. I trust the IP address more than your word.
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#845336 - 03/30/09 05:03 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
Planeteer


Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Originally Posted By: VSLOVER
no i dont work there, or i wouldnt own an 840 to begin with!


So you own an 840? You have a 2480 listed in your "profile."

That seems a little odd.
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#845341 - 03/30/09 05:26 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Wish]
Cornjerker Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 5597
Loc: CornvILLe
VSLover's original message (dtd 3/11/2009 @ 1:00PM), which he revised (by deleting about 90% of it) AFTER I posted my reply above (dtd 3/11/2009 @ 1:25PM), claimed he owned a 2480, and if I recall correctly, disparaged 840 owners suggesting we should buy a 2480.

The suggestion makes perfect sense to me. Sell our $1200 (original) VS-840's (now worth $100), that have been ABANDONED BY ROLAND, to spend $4500 (original) on a VS-2480 (now worth $1500 +/-), ALSO ABANDONED BY ROLAND.

Yup. VSLoser is the smart one. Though I must admit, I'm jealous that he can turn his machine on and off without corrupting the ROM/OS.

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#845347 - 03/30/09 05:30 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: Wish]
VSLOVER Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 6
the 2480 is my main machine now. i originally signed up because i wanted to add a cf to my 840 but it looks too dangerous and expensive.

want to buy my 840? works! 100mb zip \:\(

believe whatever man. im sorry i started a flame and sorry to confuse anyone. just askin questions...

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#845358 - 03/30/09 05:46 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Wish Administrator Online   content
🌴 VSP Moderator 🌵
Planeteer


Registered: 09/09/00
Posts: 7060
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
See ya around Roland guy, now posting from his mobile phone instead of Roland IP.
_________________________
Q: Is it good music?
A: I Wish Art

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#845359 - 03/30/09 05:49 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
Philph Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 46
Easy to do the upgrade on the 840, just get all the facts right first and remember you will get no help from Roland.
However you will get very good help from this vsplanet site. I have only just recently upgraded my 840, I will probably upgrade to a bigger machine, when needed at some point but it is unlikely to be a Roland, mainly because of their bad customer service.

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#845360 - 03/30/09 05:51 PM Re: Recovering from CAN'T VERSION UP and DON'T MATCH CPU [Re: VSLOVER]
VSLOVER Offline
Space Cadet


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 6
i too am disappointed theyve killed the vs line. i cross my fingers every namm, but all theyve done is that cubase mixer thing.

this whole thread is now ot. i hate being the guy that did it too. believe it or not im on your side.

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