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#841723 - 03/21/09 09:56 AM A question on buying a new electric geetar
Doughboy Offline
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Loc: Gaylord, MI
Well....I'm having juuuuust a touch of GAS lately......and......my eyes seem to be locking into the electric guitars. Right now.....I have a Variax....that is in serious need of repair. Since it's basically a computer and it's about 6 or 7 years old. It might be time to just throw it in the dumpster. I spent a grand for it when it was new......now the same versions of the one I have are like $300.......which would make the used version of mine less than it would cost to ship it somewhere......and.....my other electric guitar is a Yamaha that is worth a little less than my Variax. Sigh

Sooooo......here is the question.....and you might want to make a mental note....that I really could have started this thread here, and left out that whole other paragraph saving you valuable time and boredom.....hmmmmm.....now I could have left that sentence out too....hmmmmm....but anyway.

Is it better to buy an inexpensive guitar made from an expensive line.....or....an expensive guitar made from an inexpensive line? For example.....You can buy a $5000 Les Paul and you can buy a $1000 Les Paul, or you can buy a $1000 Peavy or you can buy a $200 Peavy. Would the $1000 Les Paul be equivelent to the $1000 Peavy...or would one naturally be better than the other.

I'm actually thinking along the lines of a $600 to $1000 purchase. Give or take a couple hundred. But...when I get it....I plan on having it, using it, and loving it for the next 20 years or so. Godin, Shecter, and PRS or the ones that seem to interest me the most right now.

Opinions?


Edited by Doughboy (03/21/09 11:20 AM)
Edit Reason: don't know a PRS from a PSR
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#841726 - 03/21/09 10:10 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
jimmyrock Offline
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I think you can get a great axe for that kind of money. I say buy used. I recently bought used Tele (G and L Asat) for $700, love it. Paid $500 for my used Gib LP, love it. See???
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#841727 - 03/21/09 10:11 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: jimmyrock]
jimmyrock Offline
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I dont know anything about those makes you mention, I recall Pete Townshed palyed Schecters for a while but I think they now make cheapo's,......I think Godin is the same outfit that makes Seagull accoutics, those are real nice and also affordable.
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#841730 - 03/21/09 10:19 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: jimmyrock]
Doughboy Offline
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Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Yep....Godin and Seagull are the same place. I have a Seagull acoustic...and I have a Godin bass, that I really like. I spent less than $300 for each of them. I've played this one $1200 or so dollar Godin, that was just a killer looking/playing work of art. I just don't know if I want to spend that much. And...I must confess...I really like "brand new" guitars. I like knowing I put this nick and this scratch on it. But....used isn't out of the question....for a while I was kicking around buying T57Strats Tele he was selling.....why would I guy named Strat even have a Tele.....there's just something wrong with that.
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#841731 - 03/21/09 10:23 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
jimmyrock Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Doughboy
Yep....Godin and Seagull are the same place. I have a Seagull acoustic...and I have a Godin bass, that I really like. I spent less than $300 for each of them. I've played this one $1200 or so dollar Godin, that was just a killer looking/playing work of art. I just don't know if I want to spend that much. And...I must confess...I really like "brand new" guitars. I like knowing I put this nick and this scratch on it. But....used isn't out of the question....for a while I was kicking around buying T57Strats Tele he was selling.....why would I guy named Strat even have a Tele.....there's just something wrong with that.


see I'm the other way on new vs. used...it would eat me alive if I nicked the finish on my brand new $1000 whatever, now if I see a scr=atch I can write it off as the jack off so and so that sold me this used guitar blah blah blah.... fun stuff guitar shopping though, cant believe you dont already have a kick ass electric, how is that possible?

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#841732 - 03/21/09 10:29 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: jimmyrock]
Doughboy Offline
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well....I have had a few of them...including a real nice Les Paul....but, I kept trading them in for other toys.....that was years ago....hmmmmm.......for the life of me, I can't remember how I ended up electric guitarless for a while there....then I bought that Yami.....just to have 1. Sigh.
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#841744 - 03/21/09 10:57 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
vvmv Offline
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I like used.

Used small denomination bills, experienced women, and broket-in guitars.
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#841749 - 03/21/09 11:10 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: vvmv]
Brian Glock Offline
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Registered: 04/29/01
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I don't play guitar (yet, but do have a few laying around) but I would say PRS....mainly since they are made not to far from me :).

The new Moog Guitar is pretty cool but a bit more than you want to spend :).

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#841751 - 03/21/09 11:20 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
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 Originally Posted By: Doughboy
I have a Variax....that is in serious need of repair ... It might be time to just throw it in the dumpster.



There's a dumpster here in Cornville ...

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#841752 - 03/21/09 11:25 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Cornjerker]
Doughboy Offline
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Loc: Gaylord, MI
I appreciate that Corn.....if you can give me your address I will send it to you knowing you can throw it in that dumpster for me....hmmmmm....but first.....let me hang it up on my wall down there in my studio......just to see how it looks on that one empty wall....I'll be right back
.
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YAAAAAAY....IT LOOKS GREAT HANGIN' THERE......now I won't have to put up a stupid picture in that spot.....and you won't have to do me that favor of running across town just to pitch a worthless computerized guitar. Good thing I checked that out!
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#841768 - 03/21/09 12:03 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
itchybrother Offline
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like said: buy used. it takes more skill, but not only bargains to be had, but better guitars.
an old les paul plays far better in my opinion. ive had several.
CRAIGS LIST!!! search local and close. this is the bomb! i find stuff i have to buy. crazy good deals come along every week. no risks. can see it. play it. friend has local store. half his used inventory comes from there. btw, heavy stuff(organs) are often free.
if gotta have new, i still find new g&l asats (some are several years old) at a couple shops for around $700. ive bought 2 over the last decade. they are diff from my old tele, but close. i like em.
having said this: play new ones too. i bought an ibanez for about $400 15 years ago that i wont sell. bought a $100(new) washburn electric that i play some because its dang fun!

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#841772 - 03/21/09 12:09 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
Cornjerker Offline
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Registered: 11/16/04
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Ratz! Foiled again!

Dough - I have to confess - I like cheap guitars - never paid more than $600 for one. Mainly an AG/classical player - I've played a few more expensive guitars and dream of one someday, but can't afford one - so it's always looking for the best of budget guitars for me ...

I just sold off my Washburn HB-35 (Epi Dot clone) for what I paid for it 10 years ago and have only a Mexi Teli anymore - which I'm told by a few players is a nice playing guitar - I did the copper foil shielding mod and outfitted it with Seymour Duncan STK stack coils, so it's noiseless now - and one of these days will put a push/pull pot in it to give it coil cut ability.

The Tele body suits me - may get one more cheapie - been thinking about one of these, in foam or creme with rosewood and P90's - can hardly go wrong for $175. http://store.guitarfetish.com/xvsesehocu.html

The $825 left from a $1000 budget buys a lot of beer ... ;\)

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#841839 - 03/21/09 03:55 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Cornjerker]
Silversmith Offline
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I've played some brand new off shore made (Indonesia, Korea) Strats and Teles in the $300 range and I was blown away by some of them. My fear would be in the quality of the wood (how it's aged etc) and what it might do over time (possibly a short time even). The electronics can always be swapped out (I know guys that have done that with Mexican Strats and Teles).

But bear in mind that I'm a guitar snob/elitist. I need all the help I can get.



The stuff in that picture is worth more than I paid for my car - brand new (A Toyota Matrix). At least I've got my priorities straight.
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#841847 - 03/21/09 04:11 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Silversmith]
gonzo Offline
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Registered: 08/16/99
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i say....

you don't buy anything...
until you pick it up, and fall in love with it.


then,
you ask yourself if you can afford it.


otherwise, there's really no point.

now, i'm big into building custom axes...
which can be done very well, and for not as much money as a lot of folks think.

but you gotta be into that kind of thing, and i guess if you were, you'd already know what you want, and how much it would cost.



whenever i go into a big shop, and play the under $2000 les pauls, i always say to myself 'my carvin is so much nicer than this, and sounds better, why would i want to blow money on this'.


but then, i pick up the $3000 les paul, and i fall in love with it.

?????????????????????????


my tastes are much bigger than my wallet.

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#841854 - 03/21/09 04:25 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: gonzo]
Silversmith Offline
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Loc: Commanda, Canada
When I bought the L7 (the sunburst archtop above) I spent about 6 hours in the store. The guy put me in an unused teaching room and brought down every guitar that I wanted to try.

I was about three hours buying the banjo and about the same with the Collings andthe Taylor (the cutaway nylon stringer under the Collings). I've had the Martin and the Byrdland since the early 70s and I can't remember how long I took.
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#841855 - 03/21/09 04:27 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: gonzo]
T57Strat Offline
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Registered: 12/31/99
Posts: 18923
Loc: Keller, TX
no doubt. I bought 4 Squiers today for $260. All have alder bodies and one is a 1978-1981 Squier II with a maple neck, H/S/S, rear routed. According to my scale, the whole guitar weighs less than 7 pounds.

The reason I say this is I might put a Floyd Rose on it, good pickups and a custom neck and I'll have a badass custom guitar for way less than anything you can get in a store (bought the guitar for $40). I don't see paying that kinda of money, like Gonz says. fwiw, Schecter is making some pretty sweet guitars today.

$40



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#841882 - 03/21/09 05:28 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: T57Strat]
glensimonds Offline
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Registered: 12/14/02
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Doughboy all those guitars would sound great. it is the feeling you might get playing a better gibson or fender
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#841883 - 03/21/09 05:35 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: glensimonds]
NOK Offline
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I 'll sell you my 50th anniversary Malmsteen strat for $1000.. you wil just have a learning curve getting use to the scalloped fretboard.. not as bad as the VS 880 though ;\)
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#841901 - 03/21/09 06:09 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: gonzo]
MadGuitrst Offline
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Registered: 06/10/99
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 Originally Posted By: gonzo
i say....

you don't buy anything...
until you pick it up, and fall in love with it.



 Quote:

now, i'm big into building custom axes...


I'm not trying to be a wise-ass, jackass or an ass of any kind, but these two statements are contradictions. How do you fall in love with guitar parts before they are put together?

Now, I understand what you mean: if you pick out the best pieces, etc. and have a good luthier, your chances are much better that the guitar turns out like you'd hope/expect, etc.

It certainly appears you did a great job with your guitar and you are very happy.
_________________________________________________________________

I will say this: I agree that you just have to play something and have it hit you. I will also say that you don't have to spend a lot and that spending a lot ensures nothing.

As the owner of more than 40 guitars and basses, ranging in price from very little to a couple of grand (I didn't actually ever pay the couple of grand ;\) ) I can say that you don't have to spend a lot to get a lot.

Examples: I have 4 Heartfield guitars (two RR-58 and two RR-59) that were being closed out many years ago. I paid $180 to $220 and they are on par with ANYTHING. They have African mahogany bodies and necks (glued in) and Rosewood/Pau Ferro fretboards (that are actually figured....one is a very unique striped light brown with almost black stripes - I won't even play it). They are featherweights and are just amazing. I found these when I had a bunch of shredder guitars and a couple of strats and wanted a Les Paul type/fixed bridge guitar(s) and went on a mission. I found the Les Pauls of the time (early 90s) just didn't do it for me - over priced and sometimes downright crap - how could such good components lead to such dreadful guitars?

I bought a Peavey Odyssey for $200 that is also awesome. I picked up an American Hamer Artist with beautiful flame for $600 and a Hamer import with a quilted top for $200-ish that are both awesome. I have Strats and Teles (Fender MIJ, Squier Pro-Tone, Roland Ready Mexican) Charvel Shredders and Strats, Epi- SG and Casino, Gibson LP Jr. and a lowly Melody Maker with P-90s (another favorite...it's like the perfect chick...a cheap date, great personality, a lady in the living room and a filthy slut in the bedroom), a Danelectro 56-U2 ($100), a Parker Nitefly, an Ibanez RD770DX (that became my Fankenstrat....$180 used and plays like a monster) and a Blazer (my first "strat")....not to mention others (such as a Jay Turser Jazz Box with nice Abalone inlays).

For acoustics I have a Martin DM, two old Takamines (F-360 steel and C-134 [not 132] nylon-classical), Gitane G-500 Gypsy Jazz guitar, inexpensive Alvarez mini-jumbo and a Seagull 12 string that plays like butter. All inexpensive, all play and sound great (again, on a Martin mission some years ago I wound up with the Takamine....some years later the DM - the one I bought played and sounded better than the D28s that I was looking for, killed them, in fact).

Basses - a used Rick 4001 from 1973 ($200 used), a Heartfield DR-4, a cheap Brownsville Beatle-Bass that is a hoot.

None of these guitars cost much money. Everyone of them I just ran across from when I used to just frequent stores and used instruments, etc. All of them are excellent to awesome.

What's my point? At one point, before the family, I could have bought any guitar or amp I wanted, price didn't matter (well, within a few thousand each, not 10s of thousands). I went on missions to find the best guitars I could, regardless of the name on the headstock, what planet they were made on, what materials they were made with and that's some of what I wound up with. I have a strat made of yucky poplar wood....sounds great. The damn Danelectro is made from junk - sawdust and a countertop....plays great, sounds unique.

It's just somehow how all of the pieces come together in a cosmic sort of way and the whole far outweighs the sum of the parts. Guitars are so unique that way.

Now, most of these were pre-eBay days of rising prices; maybe I could never do so well in the eBay era. Still, I have bought a significant amount since then.

Bottom line. Have fun shopping around and keeping your eyes and ears open. When you run across something that just hits you you'll know it. Jump on it and don't look back.

Oh, and FWIW, almost every guitar I own could be sold for 2-3+ times what I paid - not bad investments either. So there........
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#841910 - 03/21/09 06:19 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: MadGuitrst]
Silversmith Offline
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Registered: 03/27/02
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Loc: Commanda, Canada
 Quote:
Gitane G-500 Gypsy Jazz guitar


I've been wanting one of those for a while. If nothing else they sure look cool. Is it loud?
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#841912 - 03/21/09 06:20 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Silversmith]
Silversmith Offline
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Registered: 03/27/02
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Loc: Commanda, Canada
By the way MG - I'm not having much luck with the CPAP. I haven't yet found a mask that seems to work. I've tried about 6 so far.
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#841927 - 03/21/09 06:41 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: gonzo]
DAGtunes Offline
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Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 7588
Loc: San Clemente, CA
 Originally Posted By: gonzo
i say....

you don't buy anything...
until you pick it up, and fall in love with it.


then,
you ask yourself if you can afford it.


otherwise, there's really no point.



+1 on that.

That is why I haven't been able to pull the trigger on this beauty:

http://www.sweetwater.com/guitargallery/electric/all/s02738727/

I haven't found a local shop that carries them, so I can actually lay my hands on one.

Of course, that may be a good thing...`cause if she did play nice, I'd HAVE to have her.

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#841941 - 03/21/09 07:27 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: DAGtunes]
Doughboy Offline
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Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Lots of good thoughts and informatation. All appreciated.
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#841994 - 03/21/09 09:39 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
Popmann Offline
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 28056
Loc: Twangville, TN
Man, you know...buying "an electric guitar" is something I don't even get. A keyboard playing friend asked me that recently-- "which one should I get"?

I mean, it COMPLETELY depends on what kind of sound you want. I know someone who is into metal--his collection is a PRS, Washburn 335 copy, and a Jackson flying V type thing with EMGs in it. I have 4 electric guitars. Strat, Fat Strat, Tele, Heritage 535. Me and him do TOTALLY different sounds. It's not that one has "better" guitars than the other...they're just different.

You're gonna be frustrated playing country with a triple rectifier and a PRS. You know?

I mean, I'd say a Fat Strat is one of the more flexible designs...and one that there were billions of variations on in the 80s. Gonzo's is in that vein. But, I use mine the least...because it IS a "jack of all trades-master of none" kinda thing.

What kind of guitar do you use your Variax to model?

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#841997 - 03/21/09 09:44 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Silversmith]
MadGuitrst Offline
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Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 13170
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
 Originally Posted By: Silversmith
 Quote:
Gitane G-500 Gypsy Jazz guitar


I've been wanting one of those for a while. If nothing else they sure look cool. Is it loud?


Here's the story on it: I found it in a Geetar Center during a sale day and got it for a great price (BTW, it's a D-500, not G).

The guitar came with the action set low and with light strings (10s). They are Savarez 1610 Argentine silvered copper-wound silk & steel strings. It plays like butter, almost like a shredder acoustic guitar.

As for the volume, with the type and gauge of string, along with the low action, doesn't lend itself to being overly loud. Additionally, the tone is in no way traditional for an acoustic guitar. It reminds me of the tone of the lead guitar on The Beatles "And I Love Her".

I had to fight myself not to change to something different because the guitar is very unique as is and the former owner obvious went to some pains to get the guitar to play a certain way....and it plays great. I have enough traditional tones so I decided to follow along as it has been set-up.

It is one of those instruments that is a blast to play, makes you feel and think differently. It's like a different instrument, like the 1/2 sized - tuned to A - Tacoma Papoose....just in it's own unique way.

In short, I love it....but it's not an all around traditional acoustic.
________________________________________________________________

Regarding the CPAP: PM me and let me know what type of problems you are having. Maybe we should talk on the phone about it (I have free long distance to Canada).

Without a doubt, it can be challenging, especially for some folks, sometimes with no obvious reason as to why. Still, with some determination and help, you can become compliant.

-Mad
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#841998 - 03/21/09 09:48 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Popmann]
Doughboy Offline
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Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Yeah....that's a pretty good point Pops.....I only use a few of the models on my Variax. A Tele and a Strat...and a Gretch something or other......and then I use a couple different acoustic guitar models as well. Yeah...Really a Tele would be ideal for me.

As you can tell....I'm really in the visual early stages of my plan.

But....there isn't anyfuckingwhere around here, that I could actually strum on one that I might fall in love with....No where. I guess, I could head to Grand Rapids on a Katie visiting trip, and hit the ole Guitar Center. But......anything that costs more than a few hundred dollars....I start to get all nervous about the money and needing whatever it is to be the most perfect thing of all time.....

...this purchase may take awhile.
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#842011 - 03/21/09 10:14 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
MadGuitrst Offline
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Registered: 06/10/99
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If you like your Variax, and they're now just $300, why not just buy another one?

BTW, what's wrong with yours?

As for some of the better buys these days, IMO:

For the Humbucker, gibson-ish type of sounds, Schecter makes some damn nice guitars with excellent finishes that you can get for under $500. Here's the C1:


I have an Epiphone SG Vintage SG G-400 (worn brown...actually it's just a smooth satin finish) that plays awesomely. I don't like the pickups, but for $300 it is a steal.


Fender makes the Highway one strats that I think sound good and are a great value, if you don't mind a raw finish (I think they sound best).

Fender also has the Lite Ash Strats

and Teles

that have nice wood. I have found the fretwork to be a bit rough on the edges on a bunch of them, but they can be great guitars.

These Hamers can't be beat for under $400:

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#842030 - 03/21/09 11:31 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: MadGuitrst]
Timster Offline
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I think you need a tele Doughey for your sound.
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#842077 - 03/22/09 08:01 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Timster]
Doughboy Offline
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Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
I don't know if I want another Variax. Mine right now has got a few problems with it that I don't know what to do about. It has some kind of short somewhere or other. I will be strumming along....and it just quits...and then it makes some kind of clicking sound. For a while ..... I could shake the cable a few times...(and by the way, it's a special type of cable, that you can't just get anywhere. And so, I can't really try out another one to see if that is the problem, which I was pretty sure it was. Because.....you can also use the guitar with batteries...and then you don't need the special cable....well....it was working fine when I had the batteries in it.....and then......it started doing the same thing. Sooo, it's not the cable.....it's something inside the guitar...the jack or something. And...the action is all messed up on it. Well....I don't want to spend the money to get the action adjusted if it still isn't going to work right.....and shit.....it would cost $50 for shipping each direction to just have some store look at it.........Soooo, I would have $100 before they've even done anything.....and a brand new one is only $300.

Hmmmmmmm......a Tele.......Hmmmmmmmmmm.....those Schecters sure are pretty. Hmmmmmmmmm.......Tele.......
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#842081 - 03/22/09 08:12 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
MadGuitrst Offline
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Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 13170
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
Um.....did you contact Line6?
Maybe you could just remove the electronics and ship it to them.

-Or-

Get shipping insurance for $600, ship the Variax without a box, and buy two more after you collect the insurance money.

Sheesh, you work for UPS. Don't they give you a discount on shipping?

Anyway, for $1000 you could buy one of the Hamers above, a Lite Ash Tele, and have money left over for a a Mexican Strat.
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#842084 - 03/22/09 08:23 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: MadGuitrst]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
Nope.....no discount on shipping...sonsabitchs......I suppose I should make the attempt to contact Line 6.
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#842107 - 03/22/09 09:50 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
vvmv Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 12383
Loc: atween
You could open the Variax up, with it it plugged in, tap on connections with a pencil, see if ya can find what's loose.

I strongly recommend no less than a six-pack and a hummer b/4 ya start.
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#842148 - 03/22/09 11:30 AM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: vvmv]
Doughboy Offline
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 26155
Loc: Gaylord, MI
sounds like good advice Mevvv....especially the last couple things.
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#842257 - 03/22/09 05:13 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: Doughboy]
String Jammer Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 19394
Loc: Northeastern US
Try this

Scroll to the bottom to see a slide show of my Supreme. It is on sale here for over a grand off!
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#842259 - 03/22/09 05:22 PM Re: A question on buying a new electric geetar [Re: String Jammer]
Silversmith Offline
Planeteer


Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 40001
Loc: Commanda, Canada
 Originally Posted By: MadGuitrst
The guitar came with the action set low and with light strings (10s). They are Savarez 1610 Argentine silvered copper-wound silk & steel strings. It plays like butter, almost like a shredder acoustic guitar.

As for the volume, with the type and gauge of string, along with the low action, doesn't lend itself to being overly loud. Additionally, the tone is in no way traditional for an acoustic guitar. It reminds me of the tone of the lead guitar on The Beatles "And I Love Her".

I had to fight myself not to change to something different because the guitar is very unique as is and the former owner obvious went to some pains to get the guitar to play a certain way....and it plays great. I have enough traditional tones so I decided to follow along as it has been set-up.


I played a gypsy guitar (can't rememeberthe brand - might have been a Gitane) in a music store once that had light action but heavy strings (12 or more) and I think theye were even flats. It played great.

At first cut, my L7 (the big archtop) is not that loud acoustically, but it seems like the further you get away from it the better it prints.
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