#1858848 - 08/06/23 07:45 AM
dB setting for built-in preamps?
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irpacynot
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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The built-in preamps on the 880EX do not seem to have any adjustable parameters. Anyone know what the dB setting is for these? Trying to negotiate the SNR properly for recording acoustic guitars.
Thank you.
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1858862 - 08/06/23 03:04 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
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In practice over the 20+ year history of the 880 series (and others), people have used a microphone preamp between the mic and the VS inputs in order to get good snr.
The goal is to set the VS gain knob (attenuator) as far left as possible (as close to line level - or around 9 O'clock) and then use the external preamp to adjust the needed gain and better fine tune the adjustment.
It might go without saying (but I will anyway) that the better the snr of the external preamp, the better the chances of getting a pristine recording of an acoustic guitar with a microphone. But you don't need to break the bank to get it, either.
And generally speaking, I have found that using an external preamp ahead of the VS is a best practice all the time, regardless of the source being recorded.
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uptildawn
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#1858961 - 08/07/23 07:25 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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In practice over the 20+ year history of the 880 series (and others), people have used a microphone preamp between the mic and the VS inputs in order to get good snr.
The goal is to set the VS gain knob (attenuator) as far left as possible (as close to line level - or around 9 O'clock) and then use the external preamp to adjust the needed gain and better fine tune the adjustment.
It might go without saying (but I will anyway) that the better the snr of the external preamp, the better the chances of getting a pristine recording of an acoustic guitar with a microphone. But you don't need to break the bank to get it, either.
And generally speaking, I have found that using an external preamp ahead of the VS is a best practice all the time, regardless of the source being recorded.
Thank you. I had a feeling the internal preamps were probably doing more damage than good in terms of noise. And considering your description of preparing the channel gain, it sure sounds like that's probably the case.
I appreciate it.
Any recommendations for a modest preamp to use with the 880EX?
Edited by irpacynot (08/07/23 07:27 AM)
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1858998 - 08/07/23 04:00 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
Loc: on land
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So much about modest price depends on your needs as far as channel count goes, i think. I, for instance, needed 8-channel units with phantom power right out of the gate. That meant that I had to go analog and needed to build a couple of different cables to match the VS's (1680) xlr and trs inputs. So I had to spend over 1k just to get modestly good preamps.
So many VS users seem to start with 2-channel preamps and many opt for preamps with digital coaxial or toslink outputs. That puts your price point rather higher right away, because there are fewer to choose from.
What I see in 2-channel preamps today are mostly analog and tube. The ART Pro MPA II and ART TPS II are intriguing to me and might be worth checking out.... not sure how readily available on the used market, where you could possibly same a bit of $$. I like the features they include for their relatively low price that make them very flexible and potentially a great match for the VS.
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uptildawn
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#1860878 - 08/20/23 04:45 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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So much about modest price depends on your needs as far as channel count goes, i think. I, for instance, needed 8-channel units with phantom power right out of the gate. That meant that I had to go analog and needed to build a couple of different cables to match the VS's (1680) xlr and trs inputs. So I had to spend over 1k just to get modestly good preamps.
So many VS users seem to start with 2-channel preamps and many opt for preamps with digital coaxial or toslink outputs. That puts your price point rather higher right away, because there are fewer to choose from.
What I see in 2-channel preamps today are mostly analog and tube. The ART Pro MPA II and ART TPS II are intriguing to me and might be worth checking out.... not sure how readily available on the used market, where you could possibly same a bit of $$. I like the features they include for their relatively low price that make them very flexible and potentially a great match for the VS.
Man, was pricing some, and holy crap. Didn't realize they were so expensive. Looks like it would be cheaper to perhaps just get a good audio interface with a preamp built-in. I could just bypass the VS altogether.
_________________________
Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1860879 - 08/20/23 05:35 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
Loc: on land
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Given how much a person can achieve "in the box" today, with even a modestly powered pc/laptop and a horde of free and donationware plugins for fx and processing, I'm hard pressed to find any reason to use the VS as a front end to pc recording (at one time I found the effects cards to hold an advantage, or at least a reason, because I like a lot of the sounds).
And a decent 2-4 channel usb interface with reliable driver software has really become abundant and affordable new and used alike. I've paid less than $200.00 (USD) each for the last two interfaces I use for various purposes today. Granted, I still prefer and rely on the once-over $1k RME 8-ch analog and 24-ch digital pci-based cards/breakout boxes for the project studio and location recording rig I use on a fairly regular basis. But those 2-4 channel usb boxes are fantastic for laptop needs and a desktop pc, where high channel count inputs are not a necessity.
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#1862581 - 09/01/23 06:27 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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Given how much a person can achieve "in the box" today, with even a modestly powered pc/laptop and a horde of free and donationware plugins for fx and processing, I'm hard pressed to find any reason to use the VS as a front end to pc recording (at one time I found the effects cards to hold an advantage, or at least a reason, because I like a lot of the sounds).
And a decent 2-4 channel usb interface with reliable driver software has really become abundant and affordable new and used alike. I've paid less than $200.00 (USD) each for the last two interfaces I use for various purposes today. Granted, I still prefer and rely on the once-over $1k RME 8-ch analog and 24-ch digital pci-based cards/breakout boxes for the project studio and location recording rig I use on a fairly regular basis. But those 2-4 channel usb boxes are fantastic for laptop needs and a desktop pc, where high channel count inputs are not a necessity.
I put the Behringer U-PHORIA UMC204HD in my wishlist. Seems like perhaps the best option for what I can afford right now.
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1862604 - 09/01/23 01:44 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
Loc: on land
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Having never used a 2-ch usb interface connected to the 880 or 1680 before, i have to ask myself (now) - how do I connect two separate inputs (say a mic and a guitar) and retain their separate, mono signals at any of the provided outputs, without them being blended to both left and right outputs?
That's a simple process when connected to computer software controls via the usb connections, because the input signals are sent to the daw as mono signals in a straight Left and Right assignment to two separate recording tracks, whose stereo blending is controlled with pan controls in the software.
There are no physical pan controls on the usb interface for the assignment of the inputs to the output jacks and thus, I can only assume that the inputs are automatically panned center, to all analog outputs at all times, in order to have proper monitoring in both speakers/headphone ears.
I think that in the past, most people were using 2-channel interfaces with spdif digital I/O, when recording 2 independent channels at the same time to a VS recorder. That's because spdif input signals maintain a strict ch1 = left, ch2 = right orientation into the 880, just as does the usb maintains going into the daw in a computer.
This Behringer preamp does NOT have spdif/digital I/O, so can't be used with the 880's digital jack/channels to retain independent 2-ch input signals. This means that you'd be fine, if you only record one mono channel at a time, but can NOT record two mono channels at a time without ending up with a simple dual-mono recording.
This must mean that a person can NOT use these interfaces for independent, multi-channel preamps for analog gear such as the 880, or 1680.
See what I mean?
I apologize for possibly steering you wrong about the possible simple and cheap solution of a modern day usb multi-channel interface. All of my experience with the 880/1680 analog input recording method has been with 4 or 8-ch preamps, which have independent analog outputs for each channel (besides whatever other outputs they might offer, such as 8-ch adat digital). In that case, each input is routed directly to its own output and not blended to stereo L/R, except at monitoring outputs, like a headphone jack.
This Behringer has insert jacks - maybe you could use them as your independent output path, when recording two simultaneous signals? Again, I have very little experience with using physical insert points, because of the gear and methods I've used. I'm sure somebody here must be able to answer that question...... I hope they will jump in and help you out.
So, this interface could possibly work for you, but may very well NOT work, depending on your needs.
Edited by uptildawn (09/01/23 01:46 PM)
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uptildawn
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#1863129 - 09/06/23 08:59 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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Having never used a 2-ch usb interface connected to the 880 or 1680 before, i have to ask myself (now) - how do I connect two separate inputs (say a mic and a guitar) and retain their separate, mono signals at any of the provided outputs, without them being blended to both left and right outputs?
That's a simple process when connected to computer software controls via the usb connections, because the input signals are sent to the daw as mono signals in a straight Left and Right assignment to two separate recording tracks, whose stereo blending is controlled with pan controls in the software.
There are no physical pan controls on the usb interface for the assignment of the inputs to the output jacks and thus, I can only assume that the inputs are automatically panned center, to all analog outputs at all times, in order to have proper monitoring in both speakers/headphone ears.
I think that in the past, most people were using 2-channel interfaces with spdif digital I/O, when recording 2 independent channels at the same time to a VS recorder. That's because spdif input signals maintain a strict ch1 = left, ch2 = right orientation into the 880, just as does the usb maintains going into the daw in a computer.
This Behringer preamp does NOT have spdif/digital I/O, so can't be used with the 880's digital jack/channels to retain independent 2-ch input signals. This means that you'd be fine, if you only record one mono channel at a time, but can NOT record two mono channels at a time without ending up with a simple dual-mono recording.
This must mean that a person can NOT use these interfaces for independent, multi-channel preamps for analog gear such as the 880, or 1680.
See what I mean?
I apologize for possibly steering you wrong about the possible simple and cheap solution of a modern day usb multi-channel interface. All of my experience with the 880/1680 analog input recording method has been with 4 or 8-ch preamps, which have independent analog outputs for each channel (besides whatever other outputs they might offer, such as 8-ch adat digital). In that case, each input is routed directly to its own output and not blended to stereo L/R, except at monitoring outputs, like a headphone jack.
This Behringer has insert jacks - maybe you could use them as your independent output path, when recording two simultaneous signals? Again, I have very little experience with using physical insert points, because of the gear and methods I've used. I'm sure somebody here must be able to answer that question...... I hope they will jump in and help you out.
So, this interface could possibly work for you, but may very well NOT work, depending on your needs.
Yeah, I'm just talking about completely bypassing the use of the 880EX anymore at all by utilizing something like the audio interface. I could just go directly into the PC to use Tracktion Waveform and call it a day.
I've truly only been using the VS because I don't currently have an audio interface. Since I'm still on medical leave, I've been trying to spend as little as possible. All of the software and plugins I'm using are freeware, and the VS, well, I've have that since before I got married almost 28 years ago
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1863148 - 09/06/23 03:01 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
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Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
Loc: on land
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Oh - gotcha....... That pre might be great then.
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uptildawn
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#1866584 - 10/10/23 06:35 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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Oh - gotcha....... That pre might be great then.
Okay, so I think I found a viable solution. Since I have to keep the spending to an absolute minimum, a decent external preamp ain't gonna work. However, something simple like the Triton Fethead gain booster should work.
Do you know offhand what the ideal gain setting area is for the built-in preamps on the 880EX?
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1866592 - 10/10/23 01:45 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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uptildawn
Planeteer
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 9128
Loc: on land
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Common suggestion has been to keep it set as low as possible - usually around the 9 o'clock position, or lower.
That always worked for me as well.
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uptildawn
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#1866781 - 10/12/23 07:56 AM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: uptildawn]
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irpacynot
Planeteer
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 512
Loc: Calhoun, Ga (USA)
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Common suggestion has been to keep it set as low as possible - usually around the 9 o'clock position, or lower.
That always worked for me as well.
Thank you so much! For the time being, I think that's what I'll do. I can probably always gain stage the tracks way up in the DAW on my PC, which (in theory) shouldn't make the noise any worse.
I'll have to wait until the end of the month before I can throw any money at the Fethead, phantom power supply and a WBC XLR cable.
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Acoustic Musician "It's like the sweet air of Springtime - the wind will carry your load." - Tony Capri (Gently Warms)
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#1912654 - 07/07/24 11:10 PM
Re: dB setting for built-in preamps?
[Re: irpacynot]
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Dr. Altsack aka Volltreffer
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My first pre with the 880EX was an ART MP where it was not recommended to push only the pre (as it added tube sound AND noise). Then with an audio buddy, it was easier to add gain in the pre and not in the vs...
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