#1893489 - 03/26/24 01:53 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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Dot
Planeteer
Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: New York
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Get this Mullard 12AX7 tube, and this Mullard 12AT7 (6072).
We found some of these colored character preamps like UA and Sebatron really benefitted from Mullard tubes. It made them sit up and become more musical and a better overall general preamp.
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"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection." — Leonardo da Vinci
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#1893493 - 03/26/24 02:42 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: Dot]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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How do you know it's a preamp tube?
It's not working at all, as in won't turn on?
If it won't turn on, it's probably just a fuse.
FWIW, preamp tubes don't get beat to death like power amp tubes that are constantly pushed hard.
They can last a loooong time, even a lifetime.
Anyway, those new Mullard tubes from Amazon are not the same as the old ones - they're made in Saratov Russia at the Electro-Harmonix factory - Mullard is long gone, except for NOS. That doesn't mean they're not good; that factory makes many tube brands and is considered to be solid, and they'll certainly work, they're just not the same as old Mullards. IOW, not special in the same way.
If you're going to get a real Mullard 12AX7 NOS tube, look for a CV4004 (a 12Ax7 equivalent).
The Mullard 12AT7 equivalent is the CV4024.
The Mullard CV4004 and CV4024 tubes are military grade versions of the 12ax7 and 12at7 and are considered good upgrades for mics and preamps over many currently made tubes. That's what I would recommend (or Telefunkens or NOS RCA, though they are probably more expensive than you want to go).
I would also recommend to buy from a reputable online tube store, not Amazon, at least not for getting something like a NOS tube (for new ones, it might not matter. Still.)
I have the Mullard CV4024 in my Sebatron, and have at least one spare CV4024 and 4004 which I have used/swapped in mics and guitar and mic preamps (along with some true NOS Telefunkens that I pulled out of unused, old medical equipment years ago, along with some RCA, JAN Phillips, and other NOS 12ax7s, which would also be good).
That said, iirc, Popmann has one of those preamps. Maybe he has tried different tubes in his and has an opinion.
FWIW, here's the difference in price you'll see in NOS and current production Mullards and other tubes:
https://www.tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025-cv4004
https://www.tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/12at7-ecc81-cv4024
The Mullards I have look like this (complete with the white box  ):
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/mullard-cv4004-12ax7
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MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893501 - 03/26/24 03:27 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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Thanks BOYS -- the tube went out about 2+ years ago -- I guess I must use this pre more than I thought -- Only turn it on 1/2 hour before a session and then maybe a few times a week ..
Our DVC Manley is for our DI and stereo mic setups ...
Will search out the links --- UA is near by > about a hour drive ... but sure I can find on line ..
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893502 - 03/26/24 03:36 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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But you didn't answer: How do you know it's a preamp tube?
Does it turn on?
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893513 - 03/26/24 05:34 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Yeah, mine is dead, and i promise you it's not a tube!
Also, to correct something said above, a 6072, which is the output line driver, is a 12aY7….not AT7. In a guitar ampit matters less than using it as an output line driver. They wouldve used JANs. Thats the acceptable replacement. I havent looked recently, but id guess that a NOS 6072 will cost multiple hundreds. Thank chinese mic makers.
You need to take it to UA and have them bring it back to spec. Id have them repair mine, but shipping two ways…on top of the bench fee….means Id pay more than its worth to sell. Your ability to drive it to/fro….changes that equation.
I do have some old stock guys in there….but, the ax7s are RCA, I think? They were a gift from an amp builder. They were so quiet, i thought it would be a shame to use them in loud noisy amps. Sounded better than the JJs or EH -I dont remeber whichI decided the stockones werre. Unbranded, butI compared the guts toones I have here.
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#1893559 - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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I have an amp that was designed to have a 5751 in v1….those JANs were $25-30 all day for….decades….now theyre $70-130 from dealers. You can still buy them from Ebay and such in pairs for less, and what I might do….Ive gotten several brands of new production ones that really sucked.
Yes, Ive been in the LA610 with a multimeter….replaced all tubes, including the “only old stock” compressor tube….as well as quotes from local guys. Who firsthad to see if Ua would “release the schematic to them”….yes…its a little like my guitar. Id have to love it more than I do. It had really served as my bass DI primarily for years….I bought Webster’s Neve DI some time ago. Functional role filled.
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#1893596 - 03/26/24 03:54 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: Popmann]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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Speaking of your guitar, you never get it repaired?
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893612 - 03/26/24 04:22 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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No. Cajun took pity on me and sent me his Sire Carlton...it's interesting in that it's VERY bright...the Heritage was (to a fault sometimes) like mollassess "warm"...
But...I got another couple quotes...all $1k give or take a few hundred. It needs some frets replaced too, but the majority of the work it the snapped headstock (obvi)...it's a beautiful looking guitar...I'll probably sell it "as is". Put that with the "imaginary" $1200 repair bill...and get a new axe of some sort.
I mean-- I was LITERALLY getting ready to sell it before it fell because THEN the market for them was SO high...and it was never "love" for me. So, it's been in the case. Out of sight...out of mind...
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#1893614 - 03/26/24 04:22 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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But you didn't answer: How do you know it's a preamp tube?
Does it turn on?
The last 3 vocal trackings < over the last two weeks > I noticed a 'crackling ' sound ...thought our RME interface/clock was going....
Yes ~ it lights up....but no output. 
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893624 - 03/26/24 04:36 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: Popmann]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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No. Cajun took pity on me and sent me his Sire Carlton...it's interesting in that it's VERY bright...the Heritage was (to a fault sometimes) like mollassess "warm"...
But...I got another couple quotes...all $1k give or take a few hundred. It needs some frets replaced too, but the majority of the work it the snapped headstock (obvi)...it's a beautiful looking guitar...I'll probably sell it "as is". Put that with the "imaginary" $1200 repair bill...and get a new axe of some sort.
I mean-- I was LITERALLY getting ready to sell it before it fell because THEN the market for them was SO high...and it was never "love" for me. So, it's been in the case. Out of sight...out of mind...
So, how's the Sire play/feel?
That is a crazy high price for that repair. It's a shame all around. You are probably better off selling it as is and doing what you said, all things considered. Have you ever thought about reaching out to Travis Franklin? It's a thought.
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do. No matter what, it's a bite!
Yes ~ it lights up....but no output.
Ask one of your guitar playing friends to borrow a tube from one of their amps.
Surely they all have 12ax7 in them, and most likely someone has one with a 12at7 too. It would be the easiest way to rule a bad tube in or out....and it would be free.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893639 - 03/26/24 05:37 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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Yes ~ it lights up....but no output. Ask one of your guitar playing friends to borrow a tube from one of their amps. Surely they all have 12ax7 in them, and most likely someone has one with a 12at7 too. It would be the easiest way to rule a bad tube in or out....and it would be free.
Even better :: my neighbor and long time friend from Highschool --has been collecting tubes and gear >> since the 1970's > he has the cheaper Chinese AX7 for me >> but the original NOS are going to be expensive == especially the rare ones he has in collection....
Does take two : to remove the UA from our desk/rack ... one ~ on your back pushing the unit through carefully (disconnecting everything ) and someone to retrieve from the top..
Edited by C Jo Go (03/26/24 05:40 PM)
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
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#1893644 - 03/26/24 06:14 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215479643-Replacing-Tubes-in-Your-UA-Analog-Hardware
If it's the M610, it's only two tubes. And they DO say a 12AT7 will work in place of the 6072. Fair enough. That's their own page. A 12aY7 IS a 6072....but, obviously they've updated since those have gotten so pricey. Good to know they tested the AT7s.
So, with two...I mean if you're buying NEW production, I'd get a 12ax7 and a 12aY7. But, if you're shopping old stock, the 12AT7 will be the cheapest old stock going.
Re:Sire...the thing he hated about it I don't love--Larry got them to cut it narrower at the nut. I have big hands. It's really cramped in first position. Someone, I think before Cajun had the pickups switched to "inspired by Gibson" Epiphone. I mean, the Heritage played nicer.  I've currently got it tuned to Eb with 10s in order to practice my "not grabbing hard".
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#1893645 - 03/26/24 06:17 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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There's nothing that says you have to put NOS tubes in it - it certainly didn't come with them. I would say check out the Genalex Gold Lion ECC83, but maybe somebody else has an idea.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893646 - 03/26/24 06:18 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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POP or MAD
Can I substitute the 12 AT7 with a 12 AU7 ??
Edited by C Jo Go (03/26/24 06:21 PM)
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893650 - 03/26/24 06:35 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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No...AU7 is super DUPER low gain.
12aY7=6072....and the 12AT7 (or ECC81 is the same) is close in gain, which BECAUSE UA says it's ok to sub, is fine.
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#1893654 - 03/26/24 06:39 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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All 12a?7 tubes and their equivalents have a different amount of gain (amplification factor).
Can you substitute different ones for each other? For the most part, yes.
Will they sound better or worse? Maybe and maybe.
Unless you understand what you're doing and have a reason/goal for doing it, I wouldn't advise it for you. That is, not if you want it to sound the same/operate properly.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893665 - 03/26/24 07:26 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6539
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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UA recommends 12AT7 for replacing 6072
https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215479643-Replacing-Tubes-in-Your-UA-Analog-Hardware
But - as Mad said - why do you think the issue is tubes? What are the symptoms with the unit?
A totally dead unit MIGHT be tubes - but in my mind it is 50-50 could really be something else.
A noisy unit that was somewhat working is more likely tubes in my mind.
Oops - did not see Pops already posted that link.
Edited by bear (03/26/24 07:29 PM)
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#1893669 - 03/26/24 08:05 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: bear]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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thanks BEAR >> will try and troubleshoot .. the noise was most likely a tube prob. Will do a DI test today ++ mic section totally quiet of any signal to the board ..
Have a 12 AX7 ready ** just not a AT 7 >> a AU7 standing by :: But POP says way low output in comparison
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893670 - 03/26/24 08:09 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: bear]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33090
Loc: Twangville, TN
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You need the RIGHT tube...don't think one tube sounds "better" in the frou frou butterfly wings way I appreciate...I mean they DO...but, that's irrelevant to you with your "not Radar" --you still need the PROPER tube TYPE.
If I can read schematics right, an M610 ONLY has two tubes. A 12ax7 and a 6072 (which you can replace with a 12AT7 if the correct tube isn't available). Little different than mine with 4 octal tubes as a long skinny old stock guy...otherwise, sure--venture the $50 on new tubes. If nothing else, you have spares...which are also guitar amp tubes. Who knows then that will come in handy.
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#1893675 - 03/26/24 08:24 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: Popmann]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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You need the RIGHT tube. --you still need the PROPER tube TYPE.
I will get someone over to help remove the unit soon -- he has a 12 ax7 in stock & I can order the 12AT7 ( $30 on Amazon ) here in day ...
thanks guys I can get by with our DVC Manley ** for the most part -- but a vocalist on the 8th will require the gain/sound of the UA
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893685 - 03/26/24 09:17 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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bear
Planeteer
Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 6539
Loc: abq,nm,usa
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Shotgunning tubes sounds like a relatively cheap/easy troubleshooting exercise.
Good luck, I hope that tubes fix it.
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#1893690 - 03/26/24 09:46 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: bear]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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Removing the rack with help tomorrow -- and with a experienced tube tech at hand -- he will be bringing over his stock of the correct tubes ... Will post the favorable results ...
What would any of you suggest for a solid state pre -- like the UA Universal Audio 6176 --but not that pricey & without tubes ..
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893699 - 03/26/24 10:03 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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FalconEddy
Retired Mastering Marvel
Planeteer
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 10632
Loc: Litchfield, NH, USA
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You need the RIGHT tube. --you still need the PROPER tube TYPE.
I will get someone over to help remove the unit soon -- he has a 12 ax7 in stock & I can order the 12AT7 ( $30 on Amazon ) here in day ... thanks guys I can get by with our DVC Manley ** for the most part -- but a vocalist on the 8th will require the gain/sound of the UA
C Jo, why not test out a strong, vintage, used 12AT7/ECC81. Should cost you under $20, and you'll know IF that's the issue, or NOT.
Tons of them on EbaY, dude.
Your Choice.
. . Falcon
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. . . but, what do I know?
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#1893700 - 03/26/24 10:07 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: FalconEddy]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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Have the 2 tubes over tomorrow -- and free from my long time acquaintance ++ he will install. We both have really bad backs >> so hopefully together we can uproot this preamp ** from the rack >>
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893715 - 03/26/24 10:42 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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What would any of you suggest for a solid state pre -- like the UA Universal Audio 6176 --but not that pricey & without tubes ..
Don't be afraid of tubes. See if you get yours working and go from there.
A recommendation for a SS preamp? Depends on what you're after.
Do you want clean? Aggressive? Bold? Euphonic?
For vocals only? Guitar? Both and more?
Dot should have lots of ideas here, and I would trust his opinion, as I do Popmann's.
How about a great all rounder: John Hardy Jensen Twin Servo 990. Or maybe a Hardy M1.
You could buy a Seventh Circle Audio 990 clone, fully assembled, single channel, for around $850.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893725 - 03/26/24 11:03 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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.
Do you want clean? Aggressive? Bold? Euphonic?
For vocals only? Guitar? Both and more?
Both and closer to clean --- I can post ad the rest of flavor
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893729 - 03/26/24 11:06 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: C Jo Go]
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MadGuitrst
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 20881
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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Then the Seventh Circle Audio SCA J99 would work great.
But one thing at a time. Focus on your UA M610 for now.
_________________________
MadGuitrst has left the building....but not before committing acts designed to offend the senses....
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
- Dr. Stephen R. Covey
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#1893791 - 03/27/24 06:44 AM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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I've never heard it, but it's supposed to be pretty darn good, if you want a Neve-ish flavor. Go for it!
Like ya said :: first get the UA going ---
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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#1893933 - 03/27/24 05:38 PM
Re: Need some tubes
[Re: Popmann]
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C Jo Go
EMERITUS ~ VS Roland
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 36578
Loc: carmel valley,ca
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Yeah, mine is dead, and i promise you it's not a tube!
Short drive in distance to the UA store ( 60 miles ) --but ~ way too much bumper to bumper 2 lane traffic and a hassle in time -- easier to ship .
_________________________
Limitations make the Artist ...
**( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡° )**
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