#1916723 - 07/23/24 08:49 PM
Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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So, here's a tune that has sat on my drive for a LONG time now...why? Well--there are the sections with no melody--there's a version that had syrupy "philly soul style" strings...busier strings...a lead guitar playing a composed melody (meaning repeating each time--not noodling different solos every time)...and a brief version where I adapted the guitar melody to some MIDI horns--kind of thinking "that's what Fagen would do"...I think at some point, I tried to edit the section out--that was awkward...
Unrelated, but something to note for those with short attention spans:  I just let the outro play out...it will fade...see extended one take solo--which turned out to be a swan song of the Heritage 335--what a tone, though, no?
Anyway--when you hear this--what does your ear WANT in those sections?
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#1916747 - 07/23/24 09:42 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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calypso
Planeteer
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: mid-Missouri
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not qualified to say... production is my weakest skill (after lyrics and musician-ship)
Love the piano, bass and drums.
The intro certainly evokes Sinatra. Can you work in some horns?
Cool song!
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#1916760 - 07/23/24 10:56 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: calypso]
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motown59
Planeteer/Artist # 238
Planeteer
Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 18227
Loc: California
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Lots to build upon. Good bones: piano ideas, guitar and vocal. I like it
I’d only have performance producer-ears bits, not what else should go in spots or over top
Edited by motown59 (07/23/24 10:59 PM)
_________________________
kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
Gear: Fender Medium pick
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#1916831 - 07/24/24 02:00 AM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: motown59]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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So one vote for horns so far...?
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#1917028 - 07/24/24 03:43 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Jonathan Paul
Planeteer
Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 261
Loc: Radford, Va
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if your talking about the sections between "he's singing Willys Blues" and the beginning of the next verse. I hear some backing voxs singing sort of do wop. This may sound funny but it's like
" oooooh shoe shop shh wadda wadda F#
oooooh shoe shop shh wadda wadda A
oooooh shoe shop shh wadda wadda F# oooh oooh A to the G when you change to the Gm7-C ?
Anyway love the song and the vibe!
JP
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#1917039 - 07/24/24 04:06 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Jonathan Paul
Planeteer
Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 261
Loc: Radford, Va
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Horns/saxs could play those lines too.
JP
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#1917054 - 07/24/24 04:24 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15324
Loc: CA
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#1917056 - 07/24/24 04:25 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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That is certainly something I've never considered.
That IS the section...if that wasn't clear...happens at the beginning...and after every B section. That there's 4 bars of "nothing new going on" ending with the turn around. I hesitate to post two melodies I composed for that section...I mean YET in this discussion...I'm not precious about them--see that I wrote a second one thinking the first one might be "the problem". I've tried both with all three: solo guitar, midi strings, midi horns.
When those weren't working, I'd actually considered "just play it on the Hammond"...which worked on the level of filling the sort of "higher up note pad" function...but, less so playing a melody.
In the case of strings, horns, and organ...I brought them up in the B section as more or less "lifting pads"...and then had them get busy, so to speak once the vocal stopped. With a doo wop vocal...I'm trying to imagine "what would The News do" on the chorus!!? Also trying to think "who do I know who does that...?"
Theory note: what you're calling a "C", fwiw...I don't even know what to call that chord...I can theory out a useless name, but the turn around into the verse is Gm9 to what amounts to an Gmaj9 over A (A/B/D/F#/A-G) to F#7 over A (so A/F#/A#/C#/E)...verses resolve to the Dmaj7...it's just the thing I do--stacking different left and right hand chords. So, the BASS is simple...G(iv)....A(V)....D(I). But the colors of the movement are really from right hand chords that rub against that simple movement. There IS a C9#11 in the B section on the "-favorite tune--lyric"...
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#1917065 - 07/24/24 05:21 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Jonathan Paul
Planeteer
Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 261
Loc: Radford, Va
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I was trying to follow the chords and used Cmaj7 or Ebmaj7 after the straight Dmaj7 and G or Gmaj 7. I played a Em7 F# bass with a D chord to the G and then Gm. I knew there was a lot of stuff going on. Leading up to the B section(chorus? maybe?). Either way it sounds great. It's always fun messing with inversions of chords.
JP
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#1917066 - 07/24/24 05:29 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Jonathan Paul
Planeteer
Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 261
Loc: Radford, Va
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Talking about Huey and the news: saw Ghostbusters frozen empire yesterday evening. Pretty entertaining but thought about Ivan Reitman wanting Lewis to write the theme for Ghostbusters but he was caught up in the Back to the future followup. Reitman had used I Want a New Drug as a guide for the scenes. Huey sues and gets a settlement. He broke his NDA on some European tv show and ended up paying for it. Someone has a mashup of the two songs together.
JP
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#1917077 - 07/24/24 06:12 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Andy McClelland
Planeteer
Registered: 05/24/14
Posts: 12771
Loc: Commanda, Ontario Canada
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No producer comments, but I like the tune. Very cool changes.
_________________________
Horn player tuning: Give me Bb. Never mind, Just give me a B and I'll flatten it myself. Andy on SoundCloud
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#1917101 - 07/24/24 06:51 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Leading up to the B section(chorus? maybe?).
To make that more complicated...that turn around is a little different, because it's headed somewhere else--to Em7. It uses the same Gm9>Gmaj9/A....but then the last chord there is B7/F#...or you might call it D#dim in second inversion, since there's really not a B, but I can tell you mentally I was thinking "V7 of Emin"...my fingers just didn't hit a B anywhere...
Man, typing that out, I gotta be careful...someone's gonna accuse me of "jazz as a verb".... #albumNameOfTheDay
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#1917110 - 07/24/24 07:14 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Thanks for taking the time to listen...and the kind words, all.
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#1917123 - 07/24/24 08:23 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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flatcat
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 30302
Loc: Westborough, MA, USA
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Yeah, I want something at "when that minor chord comes up" - horns could be really cool on this, yes. A sax player doing fills in the second verse.
Harmonies on the second refrain.
I like Doug's idea, but I really think a horn lick.
Also, I really want something different before the breakdown verse, like at 2:50. A middle eight or C section with 16 bars or something. It needs another short section there IMO.
Just lovely sounding, obviously, your sonics on this stuff just slay me. Cool song. Bring up the vocal 1.5dB. Touch more reverb.
_________________________
The internet, and the whole technology sector on which it floats, feels like a giant organ for bullshittery—for upscaling human access to speech and for amplifying lies. - Ian Bogost
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#1917147 - 07/24/24 09:58 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: flatcat]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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I want it noted that Flat suggested a 6min song get a new section added.
I think once upon a time i tried modulating the key there into solo….to come back to the breakdown…and remember thinking it seemed kind of arbitrary. Then I remember trying to cut that out—that was really offputting. Then there was the noodley solo there instead of composed melody—actually, thats when the modulation idea came because it wasn’t different enough to just launch into a solo….So, yeah….I recognize the instinct for a change up there.
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#1917185 - 07/24/24 11:42 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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ulank
Forum Person
Planeteer
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 20491
Loc: Chicago, IL
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#1917187 - 07/24/24 11:52 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: ulank]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Yeah….if there were to be horns….definitely more trombone forward smooth than stabby. Agreed.
I mean I can still solo without the same guitar. I DID attempt to do the composed line with the Sire “335”….and was kind of shocked how different it sounded. I made mental note “probably use an obviously different kind of guitar….since using the sire sounds ‘like that but worse’ “ —if that makes sense.
Xylophone? I feel like Zappa is the only music I’ve regularly listened to with that….ill play around…
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#1917380 - 07/25/24 08:57 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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OK....working my homework list.
Little chance of their being a middle 8 with lyrics. I mean, I've got nothing I love in the lyric leftovers. And frankly, it says what I wanted it to say. I mean I could make up some arty psychedelic word soup...or an inside joke and repeat "only together are we god...only together are we dog" But, I DID come up with a nice dissonant minor shift to go into between the second chorus and the "breakdown" verse.
But, I'll mock it up to see if the change is worth it to me--to replace that section is actually a BIG f'n deal, on a tech level. This is the cost of knowing how badly midi sucks. The only thing I have any MIDI of in this is the drums...and it's not been playing live MIDI in a LONG LONG time-I can't even promise the the audio didn't get qualitized afterward dial in the match to something human...many versions of Cubase ago...so, basically, it's about trying to get the same sounds...create the 4 new bars...and splice it into the old audio.
I mean cross that bridge when we get there...if we need to...but...it's not a trivial technical pursuit.
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#1918202 - 07/28/24 08:03 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Xylophone was a hard pass. I wonder if it was the sample aimed at orchestral context….or me having no idea what one plays on a xylophone….didnt work.
Now I have to figure out how to get this little 4 bar minor key spliced in. It’s kind of nice. Doesn’t really solve my original “issue” except for that one place….but it IS a nice change up…it’s not as “left turn” as I thought I was going to spin it….
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#1918329 - 07/29/24 02:11 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Marty Gilman
Official Planet Sax Monster - Planeteer/Artist # 117
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 26800
Loc: Palm Beach, Florida- U S A
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Jamie, I really think this is wonderful. I like everything about it even though it’s just a bit country to me. I enjoy the changes in the groove, the orchestration, and your voice.
I also hear the horn section, but that’s my perspective.
Really good job. With my hearing, I have no qualifications to give you advice on the mix. I hope you do something with this stone.
-m
_________________________
Can you play that an octave louder?
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#1918361 - 07/29/24 03:15 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Webster
Planeteer
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 17959
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So, here's a tune that has sat on my drive for a LONG time now...why? Well--there are the sections with no melody--there's a version that had syrupy "philly soul style" strings...busier strings...a lead guitar playing a composed melody (meaning repeating each time--not noodling different solos every time)...and a brief version where I adapted the guitar melody to some MIDI horns--kind of thinking "that's what Fagen would do"...I think at some point, I tried to edit the section out--that was awkward... Unrelated, but something to note for those with short attention spans: I just let the outro play out...it will fade...see extended one take solo--which turned out to be a swan song of the Heritage 335--what a tone, though, no? Anyway--when you hear this--what does your ear WANT in those sections?
I don't have anything to add - no critique or advice. That is just a super piece of music. Enjoyed that thoroughly. Excellent, sir.
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#1918428 - 07/29/24 06:09 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: C Jo Go]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Do you just dislike claps in general or there's somethign about these here that sounded off?
FWIW, here's the roughed out minor bridge change up...
the horn sample is a placeholder because that's the melody that "came with" the idea...needed to document that. I don't hate the idea of a horn playing it...also ignore mix levels--while I roughed it to a level I might say sounds "not stupid"--the drums and piano are switching from audio to MIDI and back...so, there's shift happening...
I'll have to live with that a while to see if it's worth pursuing and "doing right". I appreciate the nudge to go somewhere else as a middle 8--even if this is not really like a WHOLE proper bridge...
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#1918811 - 07/30/24 06:12 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15324
Loc: CA
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#1918814 - 07/30/24 06:23 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Puts me in an odd place...I DO like it...I think it's a nice change up at that point in the song...but, I don't think "hot damn--THAT is worth spending 10 more hours on"...which is probably an overestimate, but not likely too much of one...this mock up, you'd think would take a few minutes, and it took a good deal of time to get seamless.
And it also doesn't solve my greater concern. So, maybe it goes on the list of "maybe change that...if it makes sense with whatever solves the main puzzle."
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#1918815 - 07/30/24 06:25 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15324
Loc: CA
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I would hate to estimate how much time any move I might make in my music might take me.
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#1918855 - 07/30/24 11:47 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Jonathan Paul
Planeteer
Registered: 04/23/99
Posts: 261
Loc: Radford, Va
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Nice, it takes you some where else for a second then back home to the last verse.
JP
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#1919161 - 08/01/24 05:23 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Jonathan Paul]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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So, I got interesting feedback offline from an EX VSP'r...to just get to the outro guitar solo as soon as the last vocal line ends. Now, I think he also wanted a different style of solo, but...it has opened an interesting possibility here, because that DOES work...where it doesnt' work to dump out from chorus directly into the next verse...
This was conceived with these four, four bar sections, that were supposed to be "big dynamic section"--be that horns, strings...but, if I replace the 3rd one with the Bmin change up above...and then lop off the last one all together...I can a little bit get behind the "doesn't need anything else" idea.
Because as it stands, four times it kind of builds to "not much"...which I get is WRONG-never the intent...because I've never even heard that--it's always had either string or horns or strings and a lead guitar both...for all the years of it's existence, it's had something in those 4 bar breaks. But, if you remove two of them as described, it's no longer a "strangley boring refrain that happens four times"...but, a longer (but still not "long") piano intro at first...similar break after the first chorus...the third time is totally different...if the fourth time it doesn't happen...I might could live with that.
Call it a contingency plan. Doughy's gonna see what his BIAB does for horns.
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#1919169 - 08/01/24 05:52 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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TAPKAE
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
Planeteer
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3018
Loc: Trumplandia Acres, Shithole US...
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Solved it!
_________________________
The Artist Presently Known As Ed _ Need a second opinion or input on your recording? Troubleshooting a mix? Get in touch for a 1:1 Discord chat! https://discord.gg/DCDjZUfb2E
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#1919183 - 08/01/24 07:15 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: TAPKAE]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Are you going for a Pollock Award?
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#1919184 - 08/01/24 07:16 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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TAPKAE
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
Planeteer
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3018
Loc: Trumplandia Acres, Shithole US...
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Who?
_________________________
The Artist Presently Known As Ed _ Need a second opinion or input on your recording? Troubleshooting a mix? Get in touch for a 1:1 Discord chat! https://discord.gg/DCDjZUfb2E
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#1919229 - 08/01/24 08:40 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: TAPKAE]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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Abstract...paint splatter...Jackson Pollock....
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#1919233 - 08/01/24 08:45 PM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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TAPKAE
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
Planeteer
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3018
Loc: Trumplandia Acres, Shithole US...
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Oh, well I'm sure Yoko can relate. I think he's a putz though.
But this combo was meant to be.
_________________________
The Artist Presently Known As Ed _ Need a second opinion or input on your recording? Troubleshooting a mix? Get in touch for a 1:1 Discord chat! https://discord.gg/DCDjZUfb2E
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#1919512 - 08/03/24 03:13 AM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: TAPKAE]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33617
Loc: Twangville, TN
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I'm combing over feedback. Trying to find common threads.
1- the same feedback I get for almost every song I post..."there should be harmony vocals". Cool. Second most popular feedback is "that harmony vocal sucked" when I attempt it.
2- Everyone hates the clap. It's funny...I barely HEAR them--they're just doubling the snare in SPECIFIC "updynamic" sections...I guess without the strings and such there...anyway, this one I can truly say took me by surprise. It's not like I'm doing a rave up four on the floor gospel clap or some kind of 80s syncopated pop drum machine clap...it's just a production layer. I'm not sure what I replace them with...hit a tambourine on the 2&4? I'm sure if I remove them, someone will go "can you tune the snare drum UP a few half steps? Give it more crack?"
Then there's a lot of "I love this song---but, you should make completely different choices throughout!"
The other pretty repeated feedback is "you don't need anything in those sections where you say you need more..."
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#1919514 - 08/03/24 03:20 AM
Re: Unfinished recording-- need VSP producer ears!!
[Re: Popmann]
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TAPKAE
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
Planeteer
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3018
Loc: Trumplandia Acres, Shithole US...
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It’s too polite for a blues. It needs something dramatic and heartfelt. I wish I could help.
_________________________
The Artist Presently Known As Ed _ Need a second opinion or input on your recording? Troubleshooting a mix? Get in touch for a 1:1 Discord chat! https://discord.gg/DCDjZUfb2E
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It does sound pretty sexy. 
Either on top of or in place of the piano if it conflicts. I could possibly hear horns but depends if they’re of the stabby (no) or soothing (yes) variety. 
