I tried to honor his one take slop with a similar attention to detail in the bass playing.
Zero tempo alterations. I spliced the one really offensively off trainwreck of a guitar lick (mentioned above) from elsewhere in the song where he played it better. He struggles with that Asus strum more than he doesn't. As a producer, that's what I'd be addressing with him before we moved on to all this nonesense...
Okay. Finally finished! End of thread. Frankenstein's monster made from scraps gathered from coast to coast.
Features a star soloist. Famous soloist.
Not to upstage the Mann of Pop, of course.
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I do want to point out that there's a reason I made the drum and bass on mine both shall we say "busy"? It's to show you CAN. I think it's a cop out to do what both the original bass player on Cjo's and now Ed has done--which is play very little like you're hanging out WAITING to hit a drum.
Anyone who plays to something without a click knows simple is EASIEST. whenever you're not confident, easy. Original bass player just kind of padded roots and sustained the bass. When I first let the AI detect the tempo? That's how I played the bass, too, because it all felt tenuous. Boom boooooom, ba boom boom....through the whole tune.
Also to highlight that the guy not only has solid tempo through most of the song...but, he's swinging the guitar. So, do I over emphasize that in the AI and my bass, yes--probably...but, I do that to point out how locked in that is...would it be better idea to back off the bass during one section and let the drums be busy...them simple up the drums and let the bass get funky in the next? Yes, probably. But, I spent a solid 15min on these drums. NOT THE MAPPING...the drum editing.
This DID have to be mapped manually. I tried Smart Tempo in Logic and Tempo Detection in Cubase--neither got it acceptably. But, I'm picky--I KNOW what works with MIDI tempo mapping. I've done it for 30+ years...that WAS the gig at the little studio--MIDI sequencing to band recordings on analog tape. It's SO much tighter now. ...but there have been a LOT of trial and error in working without a click that long.
And don't get me wrong--I ALSO use clicks. Said it before...say it again--it's not BAD...it's like calling the color red "bad". It's just red. Context and taste makes it good, bad and indifferent. I think painting EVERYTHIGN RED all the time, is a bad idea. I have a bunch of tunes of mine here on the drive--ONE is done to a click. For the same reason the others aren't. It feels "wrong" without that "color" of the RobotTime.
What I DO think...is that Cjo, with all his people who hate clicks...needs to learn to work without one in a DAW. Tenuously tapping along on a drum controller...the tech can help you do better.
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Yes, probably. But, I spent a solid 15min on these drums. NOT THE MAPPING...the drum editing.
AND the only way I know how ----is play the drums over again --punch ins >> Set a spot for the record ---run over to the kit and play again............so much better NOW that I got rid of most the latency .. That previous DAW for 30 years forgot to add mapping
How I map out a song
Edited by C Jo Go (08/01/2404:49 AM)
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I tried to honor his one take slop with a similar attention to detail in the bass playing.
Zero tempo alterations. I spliced the one really offensively off trainwreck of a guitar lick (mentioned above) from elsewhere in the song where he played it better. He struggles with that Asus strum more than he doesn't. As a producer, that's what I'd be addressing with him before we moved on to all this nonesense...
Really like this version POP .. The snare sound is simpatico to my ears & background of musical likes... ( best crash cymbal I heard )
I think how long it would take ~~ to learn how to put a click on post project -- actually line up with a sloppy existing project >>
Must be way in the advanced sections of Reaper tutorials ..
ONE : Never knew one could TWO : The time required to do the process after the REAPER class THIRD: Most my clients would think too robotic > Perfection is in the song NOT the performance ++
Sure out of my 37 CD's -- 4 might had been tracked with a click ...
Edited by C Jo Go (08/01/2405:12 AM)
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It takes a little effort but it's not too bad. But what you'll find is that it makes the tempo fluctuations sound worse. You have to play with it to make it sound natural.
Play through the sing putting markers on the one of every bar. Then use the convert markers to tempo markers. Then you have a tempo map. But it can be a challenge to do things like Jamie did, i.e. cutting and pasting sections where there are screw ups. Best to fix that before
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I only pasted that one spot….and kept his tempo through it. FWIW.
Becuase this was all, for me, an explanation that this guy’s tempo was solid. That having him record “to a click” in the future isnt solution to anything other than the collective not being able to feel his pulse. Which isn't nothing….but, it can bring OTHER challenges and objectively changes qualities of the performance.
Last call if anyone wants to hear this...the one I posted above, not Ed's version.
Maybe this isn't the forum to communicate such things...but, I TRIED to explain that there wasn't any major issue with his musical pulse/tempo. It seemed I wasn't getting through, so I mapped it and played OVERLY BUSY bass and AI drums to point out how IN the pocket he actually was...despite his multiple fuck ups of the guitar part.
Maybe this isn't the place to discuss the difference in a musical pulse definition (which is all the click provides) and the timing that your facilities and choice allow you to play. As example: he plays the "2" early most of the song...he's not defining "where the 2 is"...the "2" is still half way between the 1 and 3....he's just playing it early, because--funk.
Anyway--I'll pull the explanation track down after today.
I think this got lost in the original CJoGo thread. It should have been it’s own new one, explaining the methodology and results.
Pretty interesting results for a quickie example. I agree the bass doesn’t have to play it safe.
Both re-dos are way over and above what CJo would invest.
I might have done it sort of old school by literally playing the drums, saving every take later in the timeline, then piecing the good sections, massaging any errant hits. Maybe 2 hours worth.
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"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs. Gear: Fender Medium pick
FLAT POP TAP MAD ETC > > *** thanks for all the tips and drummin'
SO ~ so ~ so glad I never had to learn any of the edits you guys perform ( well }} wrong machines for 35 years for such details, to study such moves )
Just something I never want to perform for songs/productions. Its just not music to me /// And the clientele would certainly ask for it or want the added expense ..
Plus ::its like a slap in their artful performance ...like they are being graded.. After a third take >> they say fine enough.
Not even half my CD's produced ~ were actual pros ...
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As example: he plays the "2" early most of the song...he's not defining "where the 2 is"...the "2" is still half way between the 1 and 3....he's just playing it early, because--funk.
Guess I just never had to go there -- too much of jammer from years back __ theory structure never my forte.
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"I might have done it sort of old school by literally playing the drums, saving every take later in the timeline, then piecing the good sections, massaging any errant hits. Maybe 2 hours worth."
Two days /afternoons for me --maybe easier on LOGIC ??
Have no idea how to perform that one ^^ Play the drums ::then even more than one take & piece together the whole shebang ^^ massaging minute hits ...
Sounds like something you had to embrace -- years ago. No way you guys learned this stuff from the cold & mastered the edits quickly. Unfortunately___ coming from 3 DAWs earlier >> & moving up to the VS 880 /etc == never had the chance to try evolving )) frozen in time ## you might say
BUT thanks again ~~~ for all you rescuing to thread..
Edited by C Jo Go (08/02/2406:50 PM)
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It's not that Reaper isn't great; I'm sure it is and even in my two weeks messing with it I could make a case for using it a lot more. But FFS it's wayyyyyyy over your head if you're not even used to digital editing concepts that were attainable (abeit it primitive) on the 880.
Anything you could do on those ancient machines can be done better and easier in Logic. ESPECIALLY editing takes, where if you're able to swipe a mouse left to right you can cut from take to take stupidly easily just by seeing where the hits are or are not.
Then call that your performance and move on to other work.
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Plus ::its like a slap in their artful performance ...like they are being graded.. After a third take >> they say fine enough.
What's "it" in your rant? I changed nothing except pasting ONE little guitar riff. My version IS what he played...AS HE PLAYED IT...you don't have to play it busy--that was for explanation purpose...you can take the same tempo map and play more solid/confident boom bap boom boom bap than you or Ed played.
Side note: you have two other takes? Or you didn't save them? That's on you. If they played like this 3 times, you could've likely comp'd together into one less awkward take.
Side note: you have two other takes? Or you didn't save them? That's on you. If they played like this 3 times, you could've likely comp'd together into one less awkward take.
I just learned ( don't snicker ) how to flatten the takes ...Implode /Explode in REAPER --not 4 days ago. Watchin' those You Tubes slowly and rewind .. Like a whole new language
Do any of you remember how difficult it was to access Virtual Tracks in the Roland ??
Yet to learn how to COMP takes ( those tracks are pretty small on my 40in screen to do any delicate work) Well, I do have lesson on Monday >> wish me luck..
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You have time to do endless posts down memory lane. That's time for studying the DAW of choice.
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I just made it appear at a single keystroke with the letter X.
...Like in Logic.
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Originally Posted By: C Jo Go
After I get the MIXER screen to DOCK below the TRACK screen -- I am still at that stage 4th You TUBE from KENNY > still not in his directions..
For mixer view:
Ctrl + M is the default for Reaper.
In Tracktion, the default is just the letter M.
In Studio One, the defaults are F3 plus Shift or Ctrl or Fn.
You can set your shortcuts in all of them.
Tracktion has the most logical shortcuts by default, IMO.
No matter what, none of it is difficult. All you have to do is spend a little time looking through the shortcut list, and the menus too, for that matter. You'd get a lot further a lot faster if you did that just a little.
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You'd get a lot further a lot faster if you did that just a little.
Know the shortcut --- been on this problem most the afternoon --- just can not get the MIXER to dock below the TRACK view ...LOGIC does it pretty easily --I noticed .... Maybe its a WIN thing??
LOTS of Kenny's video to go -- sure one will have the answer
The NOVICE
Edited by C Jo Go (08/03/2405:47 AM)
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That’s cool. Sounds like digital drums? He really went with that Come Together bass line, don’t really like that, but I know it’s just for demonstration.
The author
I really wanted to just play my digital --be done with it >>> but he is trying to find the $$ for real drums ..
I have that 2 inch deep special Pearl Kick and a decent snare -- a hi hat also
Of course, I am not going to be able "move" the drums around --like you boys do >>>> just set up for maybe punches ** if I loose the feel through one pass ...
Edited by C Jo Go (08/03/2405:24 AM)
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That’s cool. Sounds like digital drums? He really went with that Come Together bass line, don’t really like that, but I know it’s just for demonstration.
The author
Digital?! Da fuck? Clear evidence at least one of you people can’t hear things, or don’t know what they’re hearing.
Quirky time, second take, playing with rod sticks, lo-fi three-position mic setup… digital. Pfffft.
Kinda flattered and disappointed at once.
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That’s cool. Sounds like digital drums? He really went with that Come Together bass line, don’t really like that, but I know it’s just for demonstration.
The author
Digital?! Da fuck? Clear evidence at least one of you people can’t hear things, or don’t know what they’re hearing.
Quirky time, second take, playing with rod sticks, lo-fi three-position mic setup… digital. Pfffft.
Kinda flattered and disappointed at once.
That was for POPS production
YES -- I know yours was acoustic --- will send him one of yours ( he only has a cell phone - lives in his van ) I never understood that lo-fi sound myself...I always work so hard to get "natural" ++ never heard a snare sound the way you were able to achieve. But will send him one of your mixes ...He is a youngster that mainly admires Dylan.
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Told you, the snare sound is from having slackened wires, a tambourine doohickey on it, herring with rods, and recording with essentially three mics that are everywhere BUT on the snare and then compressing.
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Told you, the snare sound is from having slackened wires, a tambourine doohickey on it, herring with rods, and recording with essentially three mics that are everywhere BUT on the snare and then compressing.
I know ::: I need to get out more First thought was : your snare was broken .... I mainly like to play a very tight piccolo --crisp and plastic tip sticks...
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A piccolo is too quick for most contexts.Its good for marking time but not inhabiting it, or even defining it.A drum groove isn’t just a collection of strikes in time and how they relate to one another; it’s also the note values and dynamics/envelope of sound.
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...but there have been a LOT of trial and error in working without a click that long.
>>
)
And the clientele would certainly ask for it or want the added expense ..
--- will send him one of yours ( he only has a cell phone - lives in his van ) I never understood that lo-fi sound myself...I always work so hard to get "natural" ++ never heard a snare sound the way you were able to achieve. But will send him one of your mixes ...He is a youngster that mainly admires Dylan.
