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#1919998 - 08/05/24 02:10 PM tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question
calypso Offline
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Loc: mid-Missouri
We played a brutal gig on Saturday. It was at a cove on the lake, below a house, on a 14 x 14 platform overhanging the water. The audience was in the lake on boats and rafts and nearby floating docks. The bank behind us was steep limerock – four stories of narrow wooden steps from the trailer to the stage. Fortunately, we had help to carry the gear down and up.

Three hours from 2pm to 5pm. We started off in the shade, but we lost it about halfway through. 91 degrees, full sun. Yuck!
We stage monitor with one of those small column PA devices behind us. It works as our front fill also. Playing out over the lake required us to max it out. Unfortunately, it was in my corner of the stage. My ears were toast at the end. Our main PA speakers were also maxed out. The sound wasn’t great.

We survived. The event organizers want us again next year. I thought we sounded like sh*t, but they were effusive with praise. Go figure…

If we do it again, we’ll use the balcony of the house instead (about halfway up the slope). It’s not deep, but it’s plenty wide. And covered! And we’ll bring a bigger PA, probably with a delay speaker pair down at the water.

Anyway, I’m in the market for a delay unit. Audio time alignment delay – not an effect. Do any of you have recommendations? I can see 1 rack unit two-channel devices from Rane (AD 22D) under $100 used. That would be perfect if it is a reliable piece of gear.
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#1920009 - 08/05/24 02:51 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: calypso]
motown59 Offline
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Wow, that’s a few challenges. Sometimes we swear it was a terrible gig but a lot of the issues aren’t noticed. The sun and heat aren’t trivial.

I’d find a used DBX drive rack unit for delaying speakers. But there are different models and some only delay back line to mains. You’ll need roughly 1ms per foot delay. Whats the approx distance? What’s your mixer? Most digital mixers have matrices that have delays. QSC K.2 series also have built in delays.


Edited by motown59 (08/05/24 03:18 PM)
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#1920010 - 08/05/24 02:56 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: motown59]
Mark Oakley Offline
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I'd run the delays in mono; chaining two speakers together from one output. Are you using a digital board with Delay on the outputs?

-Mark
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#1920011 - 08/05/24 02:58 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: calypso]
Webster Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 17959
 Originally Posted By: calypso
Audio time alignment delay


I think I get it.... but what exactly does this do? Achieve?

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#1920014 - 08/05/24 03:06 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: Webster]
TAPKAE Offline
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
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It makes it so over a distance the electronic sound delivered through the system is stalled so it doesn’t arrive before the acoustic sound coming “later” because of the physics of waves in air being slower than the electronic signal.
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#1920018 - 08/05/24 03:17 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: TAPKAE]
Webster Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
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 Originally Posted By: TAPKAE
It makes it so over a distance the electronic sound delivered through the system is stalled so it doesn’t arrive before the acoustic sound coming “later” because of the physics of waves in air being slower than the electronic signal.


Thank you.

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#1920019 - 08/05/24 03:21 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: TAPKAE]
calypso Offline
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Analog mixer - we always use mono.

The distance for this venue will be about fifty feet - but I'd like a range of delay settings for other places.

There are apps to calculate how the speed of sound changes with temperature.
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#1920026 - 08/05/24 03:47 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: calypso]
motown59 Offline
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To get a bit geeky about it-

Calypso’s band goes up on the balcony with a bigger PA system that is hitting 100dB at 20’ out from the band(pretty loud). The shoreline is 60’ from that point. So, the level of the band is now approximately 91 dB, still decently loud. But people on a boat roughly 160 feet from the band are only getting 82-83 dB. Plus the upper end frequencies die out more than stuff below about 500hz. So, it’s quiet and muffled.

Electricity is close to the speed of light, sound is really slow. 1130 feet per second, depending on temperatures. So, you can’t just put speakers out on the shoreline because the sound from the band PA will hit those shoreline speakers with a 55ms delay. That’s like adding a rockabilly delay to the whole band. Mess

So, you delay the shore speakers 55 ms plus another 5 or so for haas effect. The shore speakers will now carry the volume and tone out to the boats. The extra 5ms is a technique to ensure the boaters don’t see the band but feel the sound coming from the shore speakers. You don’t have to concern yourself with the subwoofers. Those frequencies are hearty.

The quick method is to play a slow sparse drum groove on the PA while standing at the delay speakers, adjusting the timing until it becomes one clear piece


Edited by motown59 (08/05/24 03:49 PM)
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kel

"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
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#1920037 - 08/05/24 04:05 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: motown59]
Webster Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 17959
 Originally Posted By: motown59
To get a bit geeky about it-

Calypso’s band goes up on the balcony with a bigger PA system that is hitting 100dB at 20’ out from the band(pretty loud). The shoreline is 60’ from that point. So, the level of the band is now approximately 91 dB, still decently loud. But people on a boat roughly 160 feet from the band are only getting 82-83 dB. Plus the upper end frequencies die out more than stuff below about 500hz. So, it’s quiet and muffled.

Electricity is close to the speed of light, sound is really slow. 1130 feet per second, depending on temperatures. So, you can’t just put speakers out on the shoreline because the sound from the band PA will hit those shoreline speakers with a 55ms delay. That’s like adding a rockabilly delay to the whole band. Mess

So, you delay the shore speakers 55 ms plus another 5 or so for haas effect. The shore speakers will now carry the volume and tone out to the boats. The extra 5ms is a technique to ensure the boaters don’t see the band but feel the sound coming from the shore speakers. You don’t have to concern yourself with the subwoofers. Those frequencies are hearty.

The quick method is to play a slow sparse drum groove on the PA while standing at the delay speakers, adjusting the timing until it becomes one clear piece


Excellent. Thank you.

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#1920052 - 08/05/24 04:49 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: Webster]
Mark Oakley Offline
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Registered: 10/09/02
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Loc: Beaverton, Ontario
All good info from Kel. I generally calculate 88.5 ms per 100 ft. for the distance between the Main and Delay speakers, plus a few ms for fine tuning.

-Mark
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#1920054 - 08/05/24 04:58 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: Mark Oakley]
motown59 Offline
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Loc: California
Yup!

Sound moves slower in cold air but cold air works better/more efficiently for sound.

The bass and bluegills will get the sound four times sooner than the people btw. That’s important to know
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"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
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#1920055 - 08/05/24 05:04 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: motown59]
Xenophile Offline
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Registered: 09/27/00
Posts: 19402
Loc: Sacramento, CA, USA
Is it really worth upgrading your PA for one gig?
I would suggest renting what you only need occasionally, and bake the cost of the rental into your price.

Or perhaps hire a sound company to do that heavy lifting?


Edited by Xenophile (08/05/24 05:05 PM)
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#1920062 - 08/05/24 05:19 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: Xenophile]
calypso Offline
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Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: mid-Missouri
 Originally Posted By: Xenophile
Is it really worth upgrading your PA for one gig?
I would suggest renting what you only need occasionally, and bake the cost of the rental into your price.

Or perhaps hire a sound company to do that heavy lifting?


I absolutely agree - and I told the band we don't need to permanently equip ourselves for the one or two gigs we can't handle. In fact, our drummer is able to borrow a big P.A. rig with a sub from guys who owe him favors.
But I'd still like to get my own delay unit, especially at under $100. We can even send a signal to remote speakers by bluetooth and skip the long XLR cable. I still need the delay for that.
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#1920085 - 08/05/24 06:14 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: calypso]
Wish Administrator Offline
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Bluetooth comes with its own built in delay. ;\)
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#1920086 - 08/05/24 06:18 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: Wish]
motown59 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Wish
Bluetooth comes with its own built in delay. ;\)


Indeed. Not a good choice for adding speakers to a system. Playback tunes? Certainly.

It also is unreliable at longer distances.

2.4gh, like an Xvive line level wireless unit is better. But, a cord always works and you probably own a few extra.

Perhaps a used Behringer speaker processor, the pro model, might be close to the budget, around $150 ish. They’re $250 ish new


Edited by motown59 (08/05/24 06:20 PM)
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kel

"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
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#1920088 - 08/05/24 06:21 PM Re: tough gig two days ago - and an equipment question [Re: calypso]
Alan Offline
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 Originally Posted By: calypso
Analog mixer - we always use mono.

The distance for this venue will be about fifty feet - but I'd like a range of delay settings for other places.

There are apps to calculate how the speed of sound changes with temperature.


Do it old school!!

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