#1929671 - 09/20/24 01:57 PM
America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
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Deeper
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 259
Loc: Too close to Nashville
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I never wore a seatbelt in 52 years of driving. Why? Because it chafes my shoulder and I find myself constantly adjusting it instead of paying attention to the road. And because it restricts me from leaning forward to check my blindspots for hidden vehicles. Many of the winding roads in my neck of the woods have intersections at steep angles that require you to lean way forward to see if any cars are coming before you pull out on the road.
For those two reasons, I firmly believe driving with a seatbelt puts me at greater risk of having an accident.
Used to live in an apartment complex in Nashville where one of my neighbors was a cop. He assured me that Nashville police were not enforcing the seatbelt law, they weren't going to pull me over for not wearing a seatbelt. He said the only time they enforced the seatbelt law was when they had already pulled you over for speeding or drunk driving, in which case, they would tack on the seatbelt charge and anything else they could think of.
But then I moved to a small town outside of Nashville, and 5 years later got ticketed by the local Barney Fife.
They call America "the land of the free." But you're not free if somebody forces you to do things against your will. It's different if you are doing something that endangers others, like not wearing a mask during the pandemic.
But my choice to drive without a seatbelt causes no harm to anybody. Wearing that seatbelt hurts my shoulder, distracts me from driving, and reduces my visibility in hard-to-see spots. Those know-it-all lawmakers are putting ME at risk by forcing me to bind myself in a seatbelt.
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#1929673 - 09/20/24 02:07 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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MadGuitrst
Offender Of Senses
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 22878
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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"Land of the free" is just a term, one that was coined hundreds of years ago. We've never truly been free, and never will be; no one is, it's just a matter of degrees for how much anyone has, and it's largely financially based.
Whatcha gonna do? Drive how you want (FWIW, I always wear a seatbelt), and accept the penalty if you must as the price you pay for your "freedom."
_________________________
“When your 'education' limits your imagination, it is called indoctrination.” -Feynman
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#1929674 - 09/20/24 02:11 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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moontan
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 32341
Loc: Sol III
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if you needlessly get seriously injured by not wearing your seatbelt during an accident, then you become a drain on the health care system.
a drain that could have been easily avoided.
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#1929675 - 09/20/24 02:11 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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Webster
Planeteer
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 18069
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Regardless of your opinions and preferences - the case FOR seatbelts is ironclad in terms of benefits. Like vaccines.
I will continue to support seatbelt laws. They save lives - this is an overwhelming statistical fact.
But you are free to do what you want - and face the consequences. 
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#1929678 - 09/20/24 02:19 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Webster]
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motown59
Planeteer/Artist # 238
Planeteer
Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 18252
Loc: California
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I don’t know how to relate. I’ve owned almost fifteen cars in my life and none of them had seatbelts that hindered my view or physically annoyed me.
_________________________
kel
"I love what you guys are trying to do up there" ...from an audience member at one of my gigs.
Gear: Fender Medium pick
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#1929679 - 09/20/24 02:23 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Webster]
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Webster
Planeteer
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 18069
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A couple of other points on seatbelts and seatbelt laws.
1) In my 20's I lived through the implementation of seatbelt laws in my home state of California. At first - I did not like having my choice taken away. Over a year or two I received a couple of tickets. As a young person with not a lot of money - the fines were inconvenient so I was persuaded to start buckling up to avoid the penalty. (I want to add real quick that before I decided to wear one all the time - I had a rule of not wearing it at or below 40MPH - but over 40MPH and especially on the freeway I always buckled up because it felt unsafe not too.) But my point here is this.... after about a year - it just felt something like "naked" to not be strapped in. I couldn't NOT wear one after that - and ever since.
2) I rolled my new truck when I was 23 - I won't go into the details - but it is a near certainty that I would either be dead or would have at the very least suffered a severe head injury had I not been strapped in.
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#1929680 - 09/20/24 02:23 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: motown59]
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Webster
Planeteer
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 18069
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I don’t know how to relate. I’ve owned almost fifteen cars in my life and none of them had seatbelts that hindered my view or physically annoyed me.
And this. ^^^^^
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#1929683 - 09/20/24 02:34 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Webster]
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MadGuitrst
Offender Of Senses
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 22878
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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I've never had an issue with a seatbelt causing chafing, but obviously people do, as pads are widely available for people's discomfort with seatbelts.
As for them hindering one's view, it's never affected mine, but I could see in certain driving situations where that's possible, I guess. That said, I'd do everything I could to address that with my seatbelt on.
Personally, I'd feel very naked without a seatbelt. Actually, that's not a good analogy-I like being naked, but I don't like being without a seatbelt. 
Again, what's the price you're willing to pay for your "freedom?"
_________________________
“When your 'education' limits your imagination, it is called indoctrination.” -Feynman
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#1929687 - 09/20/24 02:53 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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MadGuitrst
Offender Of Senses
Planeteer
Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 22878
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
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My first car didn't even have seatbelts. The previous owner cut them out.
But then, I came from a times when no one wore seatbelts, we sat on our dad's lap while he drove, pretending to drive, and played in the backseat, jumping up and down, and even napped behind the backseat against the rear window. 
But since my second car, I haven't, and would never drive without a seatbelt.
But to each their own, I'm not about to debate or judge anyone on that choice.
_________________________
“When your 'education' limits your imagination, it is called indoctrination.” -Feynman
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#1929689 - 09/20/24 03:18 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Timster
Artist #'s - 130, 298, 412
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 44201
Loc: Center of the Universe
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In the late 70s when our gang started driving, My best buddy wouldn't go anywhere without making sure we all had our seat belts on. I would say that 99.9999999999999% of the time, I wear one. Doesn't bother me at all.
Now if want to go flying out your front window and die, fine...but if you fly pit your window and cause someone else's death , not cool.
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#1929690 - 09/20/24 03:31 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: MadGuitrst]
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Webster
Planeteer
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 18069
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As for them hindering one's view, it's never affected mine, but I could see in certain driving situations where that's possible
If I felt that wearing a seatbelt was hindering my view and/or my ability to see (essentially meaning that I am not as safe a driver for myself and others on the road) - I would change the vehicle I drove to accommodate that. The options are not endless - but there are many options - and one or two of those have to be good enough.
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#1929691 - 09/20/24 03:45 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Webster]
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37743
Loc: The Apogee of my Life
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As for me, I'm wondering who this Deeper is. I'm guessing he's a part of the regular gang with just a new name.
_________________________
No matter how far you push the envelope, it’s still stationery.
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#1929694 - 09/20/24 04:14 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Mooseboy]
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Vanillagrits
Planeteer
Registered: 11/09/04
Posts: 21715
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As for me, I'm wondering who this Deeper is.
It's me.
_________________________
Love everybody but never sell your sword
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#1929697 - 09/20/24 04:28 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Vanillagrits]
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Andy McClelland
Planeteer
Registered: 05/24/14
Posts: 12824
Loc: Commanda, Ontario Canada
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A seatbelt saved my life. It was before they were mandatory and I was a front seat passenger in a vehicle that was third in a five car pile up. The passenger in number four wasn't wearing a one and went through the windshield. It wasn't pretty.
_________________________
Horn player tuning: Give me Bb. Never mind, Just give me a B and I'll flatten it myself. Andy on SoundCloud
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#1929701 - 09/20/24 04:38 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Vanillagrits]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33709
Loc: Twangville, TN
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No, it's me.
Kidding. I am AL. Obviously.
I have always worn a seatbelt. Whole life it's been a law. I feel super weird NOT wearing one--when there's some special case...I have NO idea why someone would prefer that.
I would suggest one might need to scrutinize that "fit" when buying a car. Ms Pop wears hers in her Prius, all the time, without issue but complains the one in my Solara is brutally uncomfortable in the way it hits her--driving or passenger. And we're nearly the same height...Deeper is a bit shorter. I chuckled a little at getting in the way of vision...he's not THAT short. ...I might suggest he find one that fits better.
I would encourage you, Deeper, to view this through your liberal world view--because this is straight up deep red logic. "I don't wanna, and any attempt to control me is government overreach". Cool. Feel empathy with whatever relative is votes consistently for racist theocratic thugs on some issue of "cuz I want to and they won't let me". Realize that relativbe is not...well...MAY NOT be a racist theocratic sheep...as much as someone tired of the government telling them what they can't do.
I'm just suggesting that freedom...is...a delusion Kristopherson summed up well. It's a losing argument in ANY debate. IMO. It cries "I have no logical defense of this action--but, I should be able to CHOOSE it, damnit....FREEDOM!"
I can make a strong case for the decriminalization of drugs--which push to shove, is "my stance". I can make a strong case for it being a little selective...I can make a case for legalization, which IS tangibly different than decriminalization, but it's one I can't agree with--which is tax collection off the addicted and corporate marketing to addict people. I can make the case for the "war on drugs"--but, it's basically been disproven over decades of the fight. Anyway--the point is, however you feel about a subject, it's pretty helpful to make alternate arguments.
So, now, I'll wait for you to make the argument FOR requiring people to wear seatbelts.
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#1929705 - 09/20/24 05:00 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Popmann]
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Timster
Artist #'s - 130, 298, 412
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 44201
Loc: Center of the Universe
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My favorite post of Popmanns after 22 years. nice
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#1929714 - 09/20/24 06:02 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Timster]
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Doofie
Doofie
Planeteer
Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 14500
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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My mother told me she had a note from her doctor that allowed her to drive without a seat belt. I never asked to see the note.
_________________________
"On religion, the common man finds it to be true,
the wise man finds it foolish,
and the wealthy man finds it useful."
-Seneca The Younger ~76AD
I'm David McMillan. My friends call me Chuck.
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#1929727 - 09/20/24 06:46 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Wish]
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fabulousthunderbird
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 27609
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My 2011 Silverado has an amazingly annoying seat belt and I live in an area where many train crossings require leaning forward (no signal and lots of brush/trees everywhere) and the same kind of odd angles at intersections like you describe...if I move just a little bit too fast for it, it locks me in place...also I like to roll bare-chested in the summer with my truck & my Wrangler Sahara and on both they're extremely irritating to my skin...I use them anyway but sometimes only because I don't like the damn warning keep on yelling at me...I mean there's a Bar & Grill less than a mile from our cottage here down a road where 30 MPH seems fast (chain of lakes) so pretty sure I ain't surfing my hood crawling along the road like that eh...
_________________________
Fighting political fires with fire for 23 years...
I am fonts
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#1932588 - 10/01/24 04:53 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: fabulousthunderbird]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33709
Loc: Twangville, TN
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I would encourage you, Deeper, to view this through your liberal world view--because this is straight up deep red logic.
Like clockwork to prove my point:
My 2011 Silverado has an amazingly annoying seat belt and I live in an area where many train crossings require leaning forward (no signal and lots of brush/trees everywhere) and the same kind of odd angles at intersections like you describe...if I move just a little bit too fast for it, it locks me in place...also I like to roll bare-chested in the summer with my truck & my Wrangler Sahara and on both they're extremely irritating to my skin...I use them anyway but sometimes only because I don't like the damn warning keep on yelling at me...I mean there's a Bar & Grill less than a mile from our cottage here down a road where 30 MPH seems fast (chain of lakes) so pretty sure I ain't surfing my hood crawling along the road like that eh...
Also, was it required to make the argument that you like to drive barechested? I mean that feels like just another angle FOR requiring seatbelts.
I'm gonna argue for holes in the seats because I like to drive without pants, and like the feel of the hot air coming off the blacktop on my sack.
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#1932592 - 10/01/24 04:58 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Popmann]
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Deeper
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 259
Loc: Too close to Nashville
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I'm gonna argue for holes in the seats because I like to drive without pants, and like the feel of the hot air coming off the blacktop on my sack.
You got me giggling like a girl on that one.
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#1932593 - 10/01/24 05:02 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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The argument presented against seatbelts here is ridiculous
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#1932597 - 10/01/24 05:08 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Deeper
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 259
Loc: Too close to Nashville
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The argument is not against seatbelts. The argument is freedom of choice.
Similar to women being told they cannot choose for themselves.
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#1932605 - 10/01/24 05:37 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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Popmann
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 33709
Loc: Twangville, TN
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The argument is not against seatbelts. The argument is freedom of choice.
Similar to women being told they cannot choose for themselves.
Right. Welcome to the game "which hill are YOU willing to die on". So, you just equated your right to choose to feel more comfortable while driving your car...with 51% of the population being able to have a career, not die prematurely, enjoy their sexuality, and plan her family around the the rest. Which isn't even ONLY of benefit to the 51% having uterus.
At the basic level, governing is ALL about REMOVING freedom to make choices. If there were no government, you could do anything you want, right? Except maybe breathe or not die of dysentery at age 17. And the truth is...there is ALWAYS governance. If the US gov closed up shop tomorrow, it would create a vacuum where other players would step up and be "in control". Which is kind of why the truth is the old quote about...what is it..."democracy is a terrible form of governing--it's just better than all the alternatives!"
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#1932612 - 10/01/24 05:42 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Popmann]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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#1932620 - 10/01/24 06:02 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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TAPKAE
The Artist Presently Known As Ed
Planeteer
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3033
Loc: Trumplandia Acres, Shithole US...
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I don’t think of our version of “freedom” as license to do just anything. Coming from the era of divine rights of kings and all that, none happy to hear from little people or even their family on how to govern, the freedom granted to citizens was a huge thing. Freedom to come up with a better idea to serve the common good, or at least one’s similar demographic, instead of perhaps being relieved of one’s cranium for holding contrary ideas to whoever is king.
The idea of a free-for-all is dangerous, but the founding of the states was in a time when freedom to act as a responsible citizens who would cherish and evolve the more lateral relationships within the polis were new possibilities and not deemed as dissidence or heresy.
_________________________
The Artist Presently Known As Ed _ Need a second opinion or input on your recording? Troubleshooting a mix? Get in touch for a 1:1 Discord chat! https://discord.gg/DCDjZUfb2E
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#1932621 - 10/01/24 06:02 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Popmann]
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Deeper
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 259
Loc: Too close to Nashville
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So, you just equated your right to choose to feel more comfortable while driving your car...
Comfort? You're putting words in my mouth. You must have missed where I explained how seatbelts make it unsafer for me to drive because it limits my visibility to see oncoming drivers, and causes me to fidgit with the seatbelt instead of giving my full attention to the road.
I'm trying to be a safer, more alert driver but some government do-gooders prefer to decide for me what is right. They don't drive my vehicle nor do they drive my backroads. And just like a woman's freedom to choose how to live her life, not the government, I believe they need to Mind Their Own Damn Business, like Tim Walz says.
I'm not taking away anyone's right to wear a seatbelt if they like. And I've been wearing the seatbelt ever since I got a ticket, constantly scratching and adjusting. So the point is moot.
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#1932627 - 10/01/24 06:10 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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Learn to work a seatbelt. It’s kinda like using a sword against a shield in Dune: if you move too fast you can’t get in.
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#1932641 - 10/01/24 07:13 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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And putting this issue on the same level as a right to abortion is sooooo silly
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#1932643 - 10/01/24 07:33 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Mooseboy
That's "MR. Asshole" to you, buddy!
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 37743
Loc: The Apogee of my Life
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Y'know, if people decide to not use their seatbelts and get horrifically injured, then NO taxpayer money should be called in for help.
Actions (or lack of) indeed have consequences.
_________________________
No matter how far you push the envelope, it’s still stationery.
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#1932645 - 10/01/24 07:38 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Mooseboy]
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MimeRifle
World Citizen
Planeteer
Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 2302
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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Y'know, if people decide to not use their seatbelts and get horrifically injured, then NO taxpayer money should be called in for help.
The seat belt example is about as cut & dried as it gets, probably. most "personal responsibility" examples are much murkier. Should we refuse help to a heart-attack victim because they are fat? (i.e. CHOSE a lifestyle that increased the likelihood of coronary issues)
Edited by MimeRifle (10/01/24 07:38 PM)
_________________________
“I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”
― James Baldwin
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#1932650 - 10/01/24 07:45 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: MimeRifle]
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Deeper
Planeteer
Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 259
Loc: Too close to Nashville
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Unlike some here, I give everyone the right to your own opinions. And I won't be judgmental and immature and call your thoughts silly or stupid. Even if I disagree.
When you do that, it makes me wonder if you have the same intolerance when your children disagree with you. And I fear for them.
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#1932654 - 10/01/24 08:01 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Deeper]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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Fearing for my children. That's rich. Wait, and if you get to know me, you'll see.
"Y'know, if people decide to not use their seatbelts and get horrifically injured, then NO taxpayer money should be called in for help."
Except we live in a country with a heart.
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#1932656 - 10/01/24 08:04 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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Tao Jones
Planeteer
Registered: 06/13/00
Posts: 15399
Loc: CA
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I mean you no harm. You seem like a good guy, and I'm glad you joined.
This idea is just dumb and dangerous.
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#1932665 - 10/01/24 08:15 PM
Re: America, "the land of the free" -- NOT EVEN
[Re: Tao Jones]
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gonzo
purveyor of noise
Loquacious Planeteer
Registered: 08/16/99
Posts: 31707
Loc: SL.UT
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sounds like something a bot would suggest.
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