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#1931540 - 09/27/24 05:07 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: jimmyrock]
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for context, if I hear it on the country station or spotify channel for country i call it country....shaboozey'stipsy doesnt feel super country to me but there we are \:\)
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#1931545 - 09/27/24 05:42 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
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 Originally Posted By: motown59
But, they’re assembled/recorded very well and teams of writers have crafted most to fit the style that radio wants and apparently the listeners/concert goers. The themes are tired but there are a lot of great hooks and melody within those assembly-line records.


I agree that the production on modern country is immaculate! Stunning! The best productions happening in 2024. Like in a stratosphere above what Phil Spector did. But a lot of time they're just polishing turds to perfection.

To me, the "teams of writers" are one of the problems with country music, because it waters down any one writer's genius. Nearly all of my favorite songs in life were written by one or two people who shared the same vision. Imagine what a Beethoven symphony would have sounded like with a "team of writers".

I also agree that country music has a lot of great hooks. A lot! But I don't think the melodies rise above mediocre. Not when you compare them to a rich Beatles melody, or a Bacharach melody, or any of the melodies in the Great American Songbook. (Yet modern country has way more melody than modern pop.)

Do you agree with any of that, Kel?

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#1931581 - 09/27/24 06:56 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
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Someone should add that the fakey twang delivered by some of the male vocalists is annoying as fuck, starting with Garth Brooks.

Motown gets offended when any music gets maligned. except mine. ha ha

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#1931591 - 09/27/24 07:23 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
motown59 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: AL
Someone should add that the fakey twang delivered by some of the male vocalists is annoying as fuck, starting with Garth Brooks.

Motown gets offended when any music gets maligned. except mine. ha ha


Apparently you’ve not been to Oklahoma.

Wrong on both of your opinions. But, you’re unable to discern why.
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#1931592 - 09/27/24 07:24 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
... that fakey twang delivered by some of the male vocalists is annoying as fuck, starting with Garth Brooks.


Second that, brother! I can't stand the fake twang those boys put in their singing when you know darn well they grew up listening to -- well, I used to say Led Zep or the Eagles or Billy Joel, but this is a different generation and they grew up listening to something else.

But they don't talk with a twang! To "turn on the twang" just to sound country? Artificial. Insincere. Dishonest. Very much like massive silicone implants on a prostitute.

Another tiresome stylistic device of the well-trained country singer is that "catch" in their voice when they all sing real low. (Usually at the start of a vocal phrase.) It was real when Merle Haggard did it. Now it's just artifice.

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#1931596 - 09/27/24 07:34 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
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 Originally Posted By: Deeper


I agree that the production on modern country is immaculate! Stunning! The best productions happening in 2024. Like in a stratosphere above what Phil Spector did. But a lot of time they're just polishing turds to perfection.

To me, the "teams of writers" are one of the problems with country music, because it waters down any one writer's genius. Nearly all of my favorite songs in life were written by one or two people who shared the same vision. Imagine what a Beethoven symphony would have sounded like with a "team of writers".

I also agree that country music has a lot of great hooks. A lot! But I don't think the melodies rise above mediocre. Not when you compare them to a rich Beatles melody, or a Bacharach melody, or any of the melodies in the Great American Songbook. (Yet modern country has way more melody than modern pop.)

Do you agree with any of that, Kel?


Not much.
They’re not polishing turds used in your context of production. The records sound just like the demos these days, often done with same players or better. Polishing turds usually means trying to mix poor tracks into good.

A team approach does not by definition mean that the writers settle for less than the best. Team written symphony? How does that support anything?

Comparing the output of Beatles and Bacharach to country music hit radio are we?
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#1931603 - 09/27/24 08:04 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
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100000%
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#1931605 - 09/27/24 08:18 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: motown59
 Originally Posted By: AL
Someone should add that the fakey twang delivered by some of the male vocalists is annoying as fuck, starting with Garth Brooks.

Motown gets offended when any music gets maligned. except mine. ha ha


Apparently you’ve not been to Oklahoma.

Wrong on both of your opinions. But, you’re unable to discern why.


I said some of them, and the second thing I said there was dead on and you know it, buster.

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#1931612 - 09/27/24 08:59 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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Garth was born & raised in Oklahoma.

I said you’re unable to discern why, case closed.
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#1931616 - 09/27/24 09:21 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
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 Originally Posted By: motown59
Comparing the output of Beatles and Bacharach to country music hit radio are we?


Certainly. Are you thinking there's something wrong about that? They're the gold standards I compare everything to.

Hey Kel, while I have your attention I want to say I've read a lot of your critiques around here, and I've come to the opinion that you're a NO-B.S. guy with amazing ears, who knows what he's talking about.

Do you think I'm wrong about that, too?

I will also say I'd tend to trust your critiques of my songs more than anyone else at the planet, and if you told me my cymbals were too loud, or something, I'd tend to think you're right.

You make me seriously consider what I'm saying before I dare disagree with you.

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#1931622 - 09/27/24 10:21 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
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 Originally Posted By: Deeper


Certainly. Are you thinking there's something wrong about that? They're the gold standards I compare everything to.

Hey Kel, while I have your attention I want to say I've read a lot of your critiques around here, and I've come to the opinion that you're a NO-B.S. guy with amazing ears, who knows what he's talking about.

Do you think I'm wrong about that, too?

I will also say I'd tend to trust your critiques of my songs more than anyone else at the planet, and if you told me my cymbals were too loud, or something, I'd tend to think you're right.

You make me seriously consider what I'm saying before I dare disagree with you.



Wrong? No. Odd, yes. You’d hold up AC/DC , Flatt &Scruggs, BB King, Run DMC and Chick Corea up to Beatles and Bachrach as a quality test?
That’s a perfectly great way to dislike a majority of music.

I appreciate the compliments, really do. But it seems odd that you’d change your already rendered opinions because I question your premises on this post.
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#1931648 - 09/28/24 03:11 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
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Personal value assigned to music, particularly of our youth...isn't determined by some greatness of the music alone.

I agree, assigning some "gold standard everything will be compared to regardless of genre" is going to make it hard to be moved by new music.

Even if it's done by the SAME artists, with 50+ more years of experience like Burt's last works with Elvis Costello collected and (re)released last year. Are you going to be able to listen to that and think it stands up to Dionne's Anyone Who Had a Heart in your memory of your life in the 60s when that was the soundtrack?

Tall order. you know?

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#1931657 - 09/28/24 03:49 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
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 Originally Posted By: Deeper
 Originally Posted By: motown59
Comparing the output of Beatles and Bacharach to country music hit radio are we?


Certainly. Are you thinking there's something wrong about that? They're the gold standards I compare everything to.

Hey Kel, while I have your attention I want to say I've read a lot of your critiques around here, and I've come to the opinion that you're a NO-B.S. guy with amazing ears, who knows what he's talking about.

Do you think I'm wrong about that, too?

I will also say I'd tend to trust your critiques of my songs more than anyone else at the planet, and if you told me my cymbals were too loud, or something, I'd tend to think you're right.

You make me seriously consider what I'm saying before I dare disagree with you.



That was a suckup he didn't need, with his ego. Doesn't matter but I know who you are. Anyway keep firin', newbie.

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#1931658 - 09/28/24 03:52 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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When you hear Garth Brooks speak he has no such Oklahomie twang.
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#1931659 - 09/28/24 03:58 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Popmann]
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 Originally Posted By: Popmann
Personal value assigned to music, particularly of our youth...isn't determined by some greatness of the music alone.

I agree, assigning some "gold standard everything will be compared to regardless of genre" is going to make it hard to be moved by new music.

Even if it's done by the SAME artists, with 50+ more years of experience like Burt's last works with Elvis Costello collected and (re)released last year. Are you going to be able to listen to that and think it stands up to Dionne's Anyone Who Had a Heart in your memory of your life in the 60s when that was the soundtrack?

Tall order. you know?


A lot of great artists though peak when they're younger. Bacharach thinks Alfie was his best but he never touched Anyone Who Has A Heart. Clapton peaked with White Room. Paul Simon never wrote a better song than Mrs. Robinson, Bridge be damned.

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#1931716 - 09/28/24 01:59 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
Deeper Offline
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 Originally Posted By: motown59
You’d hold up AC/DC , Flatt &Scruggs, BB King, Run DMC and Chick Corea up to Beatles and Bacharach as a quality test? That’s a perfectly great way to dislike a majority of music.


So you’re in agreement that melodies are weaker in those genres, and you’re saying that I’m expecting too much. Great songs with great melodies can be interpreted in many genres.

Most songs in most genres are stuck in that genre. To use your example, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a bluegrass band covering an AC/DC song, or a metal band covering a bluegrass song. Yet Beatles songs are covered by bluegrass bands AND heavy rock bands.

A great melody leaves you walking around humming it, whistling it. It haunts you. Bands and singers rush to cover it. I don't know anyone that hums country melodies. First one that pops into my mind, the great song "Harper Valley PTA." What a great song! A fairly boring melody, though. Try humming it. Anyone here ever try whistling "Who Let The Dogs Out"?

(Before anybody attacks, I want to say that the melody for Harper Valley PTA is PERFECT for THAT song. But don't even hold it up against "On The Street Where You Live" or "Someone To Watch Over Me." Or "Eleanor Rigby" or “In My Life.” Or "I'll Never Fall In Love Again" or “(They Long to Be) Close To You.”

So for me, I hold up ALL melodies to The Great American Songbook, Bacharach, and Lennon and McCartney. McCartney much more than Lennon. Lennon was capable of great melodies, too, like "If I Fell." But later on he gravitated to "horizontal" melodies, as in "Picture yourself in a boat on a river, with tangerine trees, and marmalade skies" or "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

While I can enjoy a little bluegrass, in small doses, I don't go there looking for melody. (Great harmony, though!) And I can enjoy a LOT of BB King, but do you really listen to BB King for melody? Or because of his soulful voice and exquisitely tasty guitar licks?

 Originally Posted By: motown59
It seems odd that you’d change your already rendered opinions because I question your premises on this post.


Never said I would do that. What I tried to communicate is that I'm not very likely to shoot my mouth off and not know what I'm talking about, when someone like you is out there listening.

It's impossible to reach the ripe old age of 68 without having "already rendered opinions." But I may be different than most, because I'm willing to give people a chance to convince me I'm wrong. I want to keep on learning till the day I die.

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#1931717 - 09/28/24 02:04 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: motown59]
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 Originally Posted By: motown59
Garth was born & raised in Oklahoma.


Garth himself said he was a big fan of Led Zep and Billy Joel growing up. Even covered one of Billy Joel's songs. Which makes me believe his decision to sing "twangy" was more deliberate than natural.

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#1931721 - 09/28/24 02:10 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
Deeper Offline
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 Originally Posted By: AL
That was a suckup


Not even.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I love to compliment people when they deserve it, just as I try to point out when they are wrong (without hurting their feelings or immature name-calling.)

If you think I was sucking up to Kel, you've been ignoring how much we've been disagreeing about things. But we're both mature enough to be able to disagree without getting our feelings hurt.

Do you wear yours on your sleeve? Just asking...

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#1931765 - 09/28/24 05:35 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
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Of course singing with a twang is a choice, not a result of speaking accent.

British or southern.

So many of those 80s brit pop….fake. Again, even if youre british, singing with a kind of cockney accent is a choice.

Don Henley= southern accent in singing. It comes through….you can tell….same with Edie Brickell….proper singing mitigates much of what constitutes accents.

Dont believe me? Need more? Where is Sheena Easton from? Olivia Newton John. Hell—Keith Urban chooses the singing drawl despite being Australian.

Go back to BobO’s definition….what was popular in popular music 20-25 years ago sung with a twang.

I remeber the first time my mother heard Garth Brooks, she said “sounds like someone doing their best Steve Earle imitation. #pointsMom

….brings up exceptions….I mean Steve’s accent is SO thick I can barely understand what he is saying when he talks. Still, I think he’d be the first to admit hes not a great singer. You can play into it. allison Moorer and Shelby Lynne grew up together…,roughly the same accent, Allison’s voice being lower….Shelby, in this century has a normal “hint of accent”….Allison’s drawl activates some genetic “feels like home” vibe its so strong.

Anyway….its for sure laid on thick intentionally. I dont love that.

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#1931778 - 09/28/24 06:41 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Popmann]
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Lennon and McCartney lost their Liverpool accent -- the way they really talked -- when they opened their mouths to sing the (black) American hits. With influences like Little Richard, Larry Williams, Chuck Berry, Smokey Robinson, Barrett Strong, and the guys who originally sang Twist and Shout. John and Paul altered their natural vocal attitude and enunciation to mimic their idols.

George never succeeded in altering his voice to sound like a black man. I adore his "Roll Over Beethoven," but it sounds very white and English. Compared to John on "Money" and "Twist and Shout." Compared to Paul on "Long Tall Sally."

So the Beatles were also guilty of, at first, singing in a way that was untrue to the way they spoke. Singing with "affectation," which we are accusing Garth Brooks and other country singers of doing.

It wasn't until much later that John and Paul felt safe to sing like Englishmen. But only when appropriate for the song.

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#1931787 - 09/28/24 07:43 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
Clapton peaked with White Room.

Clapton didn't write White Room. He also want a prolific writer at all back then. So, I disagree with your assessment.
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The country music I think sucks, is the music from the country of Russia.

Seriously though, contemporary pop trash that sounds like it's from the worse of the 80s.

I'll take Garth Brooks over that 10 out of 10 times.
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#1931788 - 09/28/24 07:47 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Deeper
 Originally Posted By: AL
That was a suckup


Not even.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I love to compliment people when they deserve it, just as I try to point out when they are wrong (without hurting their feelings or immature name-calling.)

If you think I was sucking up to Kel, you've been ignoring how much we've been disagreeing about things. But we're both mature enough to be able to disagree without getting our feelings hurt.

Do you wear yours on your sleeve? Just asking...


It was a reparatory suckup.

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#1931790 - 09/28/24 07:49 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: MadGuitrst]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MadGuitrst
 Originally Posted By: AL
Clapton peaked with White Room.

Clapton didn't write White Room. He also want a prolific writer at all back then. So, I disagree with your assessment.
____________________________________

The country music I think sucks, is the music from the country of Russia.

Seriously though, contemporary pop trash that sounds like it's from the worse of the 80s.

I'll take Garth Brooks over that 10 out of 10 times.


Was referring to his playing and the kind of quality song he partook.

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#1931792 - 09/28/24 07:57 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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His playing might have peaked when he was with Mayall. I like White Room, but he had songs that were better later.
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#1931803 - 09/28/24 09:03 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: MadGuitrst]
AL Offline
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He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.
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#1931807 - 09/28/24 09:30 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.


tommy emmanuelle (I believe) said he thought tears in heaven was one of the best songs ever

certainly Layla is up there

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#1931812 - 09/28/24 09:44 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.

While I very much disagree with that on face value….you’re not recognizing that Clapton is an electric guitar player first….singer second….and sometimes he writes songs.

You hate people like that. Bonnie Raitt comes to mind. Who is an AMAZING songwriter….but tends to pen what 2 an album? Because she’s a singer first, slide player second….and she writes some songs….too, but respects what it means to be a GREAT songwriter enough to not bother when someone has already given her the musical blueprint she needs.


Edited by Popmann (09/28/24 09:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Quote

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#1931816 - 09/28/24 09:53 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: jimmyrock]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.


tommy emmanuelle (I believe) said he thought tears in heaven was one of the best songs ever

certainly Layla is up there


I always hated Tears in Heaven but I know a lot of folks like it.

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#1931817 - 09/28/24 09:57 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Popmann]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Popmann
 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.

While I very much disagree with that on face value….you’re not recognizing that Clapton is an electric guitar player first….singer second….and sometimes he writes songs.

You hate people like that. Bonnie Raitt comes to mind. Who is an AMAZING songwriter….but tends to pen what 2 an album? Because she’s a singer first, slide player second….and she writes some songs….too, but respects what it means to be a GREAT songwriter enough to not bother when someone has already given her the musical blueprint she needs.


I used to hate Bonnie, called her Bonnie Overraitt, but I don't mind her anymore. I think what you're trying to stick on me there is imaginary.

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#1931824 - 09/28/24 10:34 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
 Originally Posted By: jimmyrock
 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.


tommy emmanuelle (I believe) said he thought tears in heaven was one of the best songs ever

certainly Layla is up there


I always hated Tears in Heaven but I know a lot of folks like it.

I was thinking more like Let It Rain and Layla, etc.
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#1931825 - 09/28/24 10:52 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
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 Originally Posted By: AL
I always hated Tears in Heaven but I know a lot of folks like it.


I would like to say I agree with this, but I won't, because Al might think I'm sucking up to him.

Of course I was blown away by Layla with Duane Allman -- Clapton and Allman simply BURNING through Fender Champs cranked up to 10 -- but I never truly appreciated Layla as a song until I heard the Unplugged version. That blew my socks across the room!

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#1931833 - 09/28/24 11:51 PM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
Popmann Offline
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 Originally Posted By: AL
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.

While I very much disagree with that on face value….you’re not recognizing that Clapton is an electric guitar player first….singer second….and sometimes he writes songs.

You hate people like that. Bonnie Raitt comes to mind. Who is an AMAZING songwriter….but tends to pen what 2 an album? Because she’s a singer first, slide player second….and she writes some songs….too, but respects what it means to be a GREAT songwriter enough to not bother when someone has already given her the musical blueprint she needs.


I used to hate Bonnie, called her Bonnie Overraitt, but I don't mind her anymore. I think what you're trying to stick on me there is imaginary.


Don't you think you just made the argument that it's outdated, not imaginary?

So, YOU don't think you have trouble appreciating musicians whose identity isn't primarily advertised or obviously "songwriter first"?

I mean, on some level we're in a agreement--Clapton isn't a proflic or particularly great songwriter. But, that's NOT his bag...and his playing and singing got more and more powerful until he hit the age of decline.

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#1931850 - 09/29/24 02:15 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Deeper]
AL Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Deeper
 Originally Posted By: AL
I always hated Tears in Heaven but I know a lot of folks like it.


I would like to say I agree with this, but I won't, because Al might think I'm sucking up to him.

Of course I was blown away by Layla with Duane Allman -- Clapton and Allman simply BURNING through Fender Champs cranked up to 10 -- but I never truly appreciated Layla as a song until I heard the Unplugged version. That blew my socks across the room!


I thought the unplugged version was far inferior. heh

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#1931851 - 09/29/24 02:16 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: Popmann]
AL Offline
First Certified Case in US of Trump Derangement Syndrome
Loquacious Planeteer


Registered: 04/16/99
Posts: 84638
Loc: Walmartville
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
 Originally Posted By: AL
 Originally Posted By: Popmann
 Originally Posted By: AL
He did not have one song even in the same ballpark as White Room.

While I very much disagree with that on face value….you’re not recognizing that Clapton is an electric guitar player first….singer second….and sometimes he writes songs.

You hate people like that. Bonnie Raitt comes to mind. Who is an AMAZING songwriter….but tends to pen what 2 an album? Because she’s a singer first, slide player second….and she writes some songs….too, but respects what it means to be a GREAT songwriter enough to not bother when someone has already given her the musical blueprint she needs.


I used to hate Bonnie, called her Bonnie Overraitt, but I don't mind her anymore. I think what you're trying to stick on me there is imaginary.


Don't you think you just made the argument that it's outdated, not imaginary?

So, YOU don't think you have trouble appreciating musicians whose identity isn't primarily advertised or obviously "songwriter first"?

I mean, on some level we're in a agreement--Clapton isn't a proflic or particularly great songwriter. But, that's NOT his bag...and his playing and singing got more and more powerful until he hit the age of decline.


Nah not at all, I love the Carpenters more than anybody here, and Three Dog Night, and Elvis the King.

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#1931855 - 09/29/24 02:31 AM Re: What % of country songs do you reckon are absolute shit? [Re: AL]
MadGuitrst Offline
Offender Of Senses
Planeteer


Registered: 06/10/99
Posts: 23160
Loc: 3rd Stone From The Sun
 Originally Posted By: AL
I love the Carpenters more than anybody here, and Three Dog Night, and Elvis the King.

Don't forget P. Diddy too.
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